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    Harsh critics on Sport chassis and Sport chrono

    Just read the article from french mag Flat 6, a mag devoted 100% to the brand, I usually don't buy it, EVO is much much better but they tested the 20mm sport chassis so I was v. interested.
    And the outcome is not great although I'd like Sergini and RC to verify because it sounds extreme.
    Good point is fantastic on track, and indeed faster than a 996 GT3 Mk1 which is impressive.
    BUT bad point is on the open road, extremely rigid chassis, very uncomfortable and even dangerous on bumpy countryside roads as the car can move half a meter sideways on small holes because the chassis is so rigid.
    I personally find that hard to believe, but maybe it's true.
    Anyone who's driven the car w/ Sport chassis, is it really THAT uncomfortable on open roads?
    Thanks for the input.
    Also, the guy did mention something about the sport chrono which sounds quite useless:
    The chronometer option, apparently, on the track, you have to press it twice per lap! Once to stop the first lap and a second time to start the second lap, well, you've already lost half a second by doing that plus just doing this probably makes you lose another second of concentration.
    Is the journo right or not?
    And finally, a harsh critic of the sport chifter, the guy said he thinks it's bad because even when hot, although the throws are shorter, it's harder to change gears and as a result, slower, what do you guys think?
    I want to believe this guy is full of it, just wanna hear your own experience, thank and sorry for the long post.
    Cheers.

    Re: Harsh critics on Sport chassis and Sport chrono

    That guys full of it, all those are great improvements. You would have to be hauling ars down a country road with one finger on the wheel for that to happen. BS

    Re: Harsh critics on Sport chassis and Sport chrono

    I love my sport shifter....it is easy to operate for me! It is not any slower than the stock one....Maybe the guy needs to lift some weights!

    Re: Harsh critics on Sport chassis and Sport chrono

    Magazine reviewers almost always exaggerate the discomfort of sports cars. I think many of them are true enthusiasts so I guess they are just pandering to the more general car consumer. With this in mind, if they say a suspension is extreme and a handful on the street, I take this as meaning that it might actually be a proper sport/track suspension without understeer and float. Usually "sport" suspensions are only mildly better than the normal suspension and it seems the -20mm option is the real deal.

    Re: Harsh critics on Sport chassis and Sport chrono

    If the sports chassis (-20mm lsd)is as stiff or stiffer than the PASM on sport mode ,then it would be pretty rough.I love driving in sports chrono mode but with PASM set to normal most of the time,unless i am driving some tight bends on a country road then i love the stiffer suspension set up. Unless you intend to track race the car or you just love a rock hard ride all of the time ,i reckon PASM is the way to go.If not buy a GT3

    Re: Harsh critics on Sport chassis and Sport chrono

    My 20mm dropped car has no problems taking really rough roads at 100mph+ and although it can be a bit fidgety it gives a whole lot more feedback than a PASM equipped car on the same road.

    As for the ride I think it is fine and have no problems with it. I guess the magazine tester just doesn't like sporty cars ;-)

    Re: Harsh critics on Sport chassis and Sport chrono

    My opinion on the article: forget about it.
    Yes, it is true that the chrono sport STOPWATCH function is pretty useless for the track and I always criticized the stupid looking stop watch on the dash too.
    But to me, chrono sport means performance enhancement, not stop watch. The stop watch is just some sort of "justification" for the extra money Porsche charges for chrono sport. Because to be honest: they could offer this option (without the stopwatch on the dash) for FREE.
    Did the article mention the more important changes to driving dynamics due to the changed PSM setup?

    Regarding the 20 mm chassis: of course you can't expect too much comfort from a GT3-like chassis, what are these guys expecting??? I still think that the comfort of the 20 mm chassis is better than the one with the PASM sport setting but it may be some sort of personal preference/taste.
    Yes, the 20 mm chassis is stiff but this is how it should be. I mean it is supposed to be a sport suspension, right?!
    Did they also mention the advantages of the limited slip differential which comes with the sport chassis?
    I also mentioned it before that some drivers may have problems with the 20 mm chassis and the razor sharp steering. This is no setup for beginners and even some experienced drivers may find it too race car like. The 20 mm chassis needs a lot of attention and a good feeling for the steering and the car itself. Only recommended to drivers who know what they're doing because one mm too much turning of the steering wheel at very high speeds can cause a lot of trouble. I know that some owners order the 20 mm chassis just because it is the sportiest setup available but they should be aware of what they get themselves. Some won't be happy with this setup. A stiff suspension and a razor sharp steering which works pretty light (too light in my opinion) around the middle position...this is driving heaven OR driving hell, depending on your driving skills.

    Of course the 20 mm chassis is not to everybody's liking. I remember that when the first GT3 showed up, a lot of people were rushing to buy one and sold their cars pretty soon to go for a 996 Turbo instead. Same with the GT2.

    If a 911 owner feels offended by a too "stiff" chassis, this is the wrong car for him. There is a Mercedes SL, a BMW 6 series, there is no need to buy a 911 just for the Ego and the tradition.

    Re: Harsh critics on Sport chassis and Sport chrono

    Thanks RC and jjr1,
    I see you point re 20mm sport chassis, definitely on the sport side.
    I must admit one of the plus point for me too, and it is vain but I am sure I am not the only one, is that aesthetically, the 997 looks better when it sits lower, closer to the ground.
    Put a 996 GT3 next to a standard 996 and it speaks for itself.
    10 mm lower than PASM is not much but it's a plus and of course the sharp handling and LSD are great if you intend to drive the car in a sporty way.
    The journo's point was that one should order the sport chassis only if he intends to track a lot. You proved him wrong and that's what I wanted to verify, thanks.
    And yes he did mention that the LSD is a great plus but again, only on the track.
    RC, I'll forget the article now, thanks.
    One last question, the sports chassis is not as rigid as the GT3 though is it?
    But then, that mag said that the GT3 is a great road car! Go figure...
    RC, very interesting that you even find your setup more comfortable than PASM in sport mode.
    And about PASM, I though the driver only could switch between normal and sport setup but it seems the car does it automatically too, weird...

    My PASM in sport mode is too rough for street driving.....

    In town it's just TOO HARSH. Out on a country road it's PERFECT. Also I love being able to change back and forth because the non sport suspension is much more comfortable than my old 030 suspension on the 996. And now with the sport chrono I can pick which I want.

    Also the stop watch part is kinda useless..... I can't imagine driving on a race track and then also having to trigger the stalk to time the lap..... That would take tons of time off my lap times anyway....

    Re: Harsh critics on Sport chassis and Sport chrono

    RC said

    Regarding the 20 mm chassis: of course you can't expect too much comfort from a GT3-like chassis, what are these guys expecting??? I still think that the comfort of the 20 mm chassis is better than the one with the PASM sport setting but it may be some sort of personal preference/taste.

    I have a enormous doubt:
    which one is stiffer???
    PASM is sport mode
    or
    -20mm chassis???

    Please give me this important answer

    Re: Harsh critics on Sport chassis and Sport chrono

    Andrea, I can answer your question - they are almost the same, -20mm being a bit stiffer but the LSD makes a big differance that is worth the compromise in comfort because the added stability that the -20mm and LSD provide. It is not any stiffer than a GT3.

    Re: Harsh critics on Sport chassis and Sport chrono

    Thanks muhri.
    Onether question-specification:
    please express me in % the difference in stifness between PASM sport mode & -20mm.
    I guess 5%-10% stiffer the -20mm.......

    Re: Harsh critics on Sport chassis and Sport chrono

    Yes, 5-10% more stiff or something like that - so small to the point its negligable.

    Re: Harsh critics on Sport chassis and Sport chrono

    thanks again muhri.
    before your info I thought that the -20mm was very very stiffer than PASM sport mode but now you have open my eyes....thnaks.
    RC thinks as you???

    Re: Harsh critics on Sport chassis and Sport chrono

    RC can shed light from his point of view, but like me RC test drove both and though the -20 isn't much stiffer than PASM in sports mode.

    Re: Harsh critics on Sport chassis and Sport chrono

    I don't think the -20 is any stiffer either than sports mode and if anything seems less choppy and more fluid.

    Re: Harsh critics on Sport chassis and Sport chrono

    Hi Andrea...

    visita www.forumdellecapre.com ;-)

    Troverai Porscheisti col -20 e col PASM...

    Re: Harsh critics on Sport chassis and Sport chrono

    I now graphs don't necesarily match the real world but according tgo this chart, the PASM on Sport mode achieves harder/stifer dampning levels than the -20mm.

    So the ride can even be stiffer with the PASM in sport mode which may seem contradictory to many people... if the PASM in sport is stiffer then why is the -20mm car faster around the tracks? Well, I believe the problem is that the springs cannot in turn vary their stiffeness and resistance to match the variable dampning sttings of sport vs normal so the spring rates are not as precisely matched to the shock's dampning as in the -20mm, in order to work for both normal and sport settings, the springs have to be less specific for the shocks since the shock stiffness is not always the same.

    Its like changing the shocks in a car back and forth from sportier shocks to more confortable shocks while keeping the springs unchanged, even if the shocks are very sporty, if the springs are not precisely matched to work as one, then a slightly less stiffer shocks can be superior if its got the perfect springs for them and specific to them. So while dampning may get stiffer than the -20mm its still not as effective overall as de -20mm (besides the rear LSD) due to its compromise for versatility and variable dampning settings that the whole suspension as a unit has to make. Just my opinion anyway.

    Re: Harsh critics on Sport chassis and Sport chrono

    Carlos,
    Once again, great and simple explanation, thank you.
    Where did you get this graph from?

    Re: Harsh critics on Sport chassis and Sport chrono

    Quote:
    Carlos from Spain said:
    ... So the ride can even be stiffer with the PASM in sport mode which may seem contradictory to many people... if the PASM in sport is stiffer then why is the -20mm car faster around the tracks? Well, I believe the problem is that the springs cannot in turn vary their stiffeness and resistance to match the variable dampning sttings of sport vs normal so the spring rates are not as precisely matched to the shock's dampning as in the -20mm, in order to work for both normal and sport settings, the springs have to be less specific for the shocks since the shock stiffness is not always the same.
    ...



    Carlos,

    pretty good thought. Additionally I assume that Porsche wouldn't want the PASM system to be too good, what else would you need the -20mm option for and why can't you order teh LSD on the PASM system? Additionally I do believe that there are several people who wouldn't want the adaptive system on their car.

    There are, as you definately know, more influences on a car's handling than the damper stiffness, e.g. the center of gravity.

    I cannot compare the two suspension options with each other but the -20mm suspension left a huge impression on me. In combination with the PCCB system this setup is very, very impressive, about as close to a racecar as I could imagine without any hassle or comfort deficits.

    If you intend to drive several thousand miles with your car each year the PASM might be worth a thought, driving the 997 for fun and enjoying each trip the sport suspension would be the way to go for me - this setup might be exhausting on long trips only.

    Greetings!

    Re: My PASM in sport mode is too rough for street driving.....

    As far as I know we can't get the 20 mm chasis in Canada. However, even with our rough city streets here I prefer sport mode turned on rather than off. This must be why Porsche has so many 911 varients - something I couldn't understand before. I do wish the 20 mm were an option for us though.

    Re: Harsh critics on Sport chassis and Sport chrono

    Quote:
    Fanch said:Where did you get this graph from?



    I can't remember now, I think someone took it from their dealer

    Re: Harsh critics on Sport chassis and Sport chrono

    Carlos - I like your analysis and it's probably right. I wonder how much the LSD contributes to the better lap time of the -20mm also?

    Re: Harsh critics on Sport chassis and Sport chrono

    Quote:
    Ferdie said:
    If you intend to drive several thousand miles with your car each year the PASM might be worth a thought, driving the 997 for fun and enjoying each trip the sport suspension would be the way to go for me



    What if you plan to do both, drive several k a year and also for fun?

    I like the RoWM030 sport suspension of my 996C4, its a significant improvement over stock and a great compromise between sportiness and confort. That said, its still not sporty enough for what I want in my daily driver 996. I would of liked the -30mm X74 but unfortunately the much reduced ground clearance would of rendered the car useless as a daily driver since I could not ven park it in my home.
    I think Porsche made just what I needed with the -20mm/LSD, a GT3'ish setup but with enough ground clearance and PSM, it will make daily driving fun!

    Re: Harsh critics on Sport chassis and Sport chrono

    Quote:
    Grant said: I wonder how much the LSD contributes to the better lap time of the -20mm also?



    I have wondered too. The best thing would be to compare a 40th anniversary 996 which has rear LSD or a 996TT with rear LSD option (since these LSD and the 997S are essentially the same ones, same lock up rates) with the standard 996 carrera with M030, or standard 996TT. But I guess just the LSD would be hard to test as well, maybe on the track by an experienced driver.

    The LSD would play a larger role on low-speed tight corners and also on slippery surfaces, no? great for the street performance and maybe not as much on a fast track? what do you think?

    Re: Harsh critics on Sport chassis and Sport chrono

    Thanks Carlos!!!!
    Thanks Black Diamond!!!

    Re: Harsh critics on Sport chassis and Sport chrono

    fanch what mag is EVO ? just a porsche mag? do they have a homepage? thx

    Re: Harsh critics on Sport chassis and Sport chrono

    Quote:
    Grant said:
    Carlos - ... I wonder how much the LSD contributes to the better lap time of the -20mm also?



    Here's my uninformed physics-based guess.

    If the PASM works by applying the brakes to a particular misbehaving wheel, some of the engine power is unavoidably turned into heat. This may be good for directional stability, but it has to subtract some energy from the system as heat.

    The LSD may help by not subtracting as much kinetic energy from the car. It also may be able to be more finely modulated by the driver and not lose as much time to "cycling" the various brake applications.

    Any other theories or corrections?

    Re: Harsh critics on Sport chassis and Sport chrono

    Quote:
    80924 said:
    fanch what mag is EVO ? just a porsche mag? do they have a homepage? thx



    EVO is a UK magazine
    Here's the link:
    http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/?evo/news%2Fevo_news_story.php%3Fid%3D53669

    Re: Harsh critics on Sport chassis and Sport chrono

    Quote:
    W8MM said:
    Quote:
    Grant said:
    Carlos - ... I wonder how much the LSD contributes to the better lap time of the -20mm also?



    Here's my uninformed physics-based guess.

    If the PASM works by applying the brakes to a particular misbehaving wheel, some of the engine power is unavoidably turned into heat. This may be good for directional stability, but it has to subtract some energy from the system as heat.

    The LSD may help by not subtracting as much kinetic energy from the car. It also may be able to be more finely modulated by the driver and not lose as much time to "cycling" the various brake applications.

    Any other theories or corrections?



    only that you meant to say PSM instead of PASM

    Good point Mike, if I get what you mean, during slip, the LSD works by "transfering" the torque from wheel to wheel before the PSM needs to act, while the PSM-only car can only "kill" the torque by using the brakes through the PSM's ABD to try achieve the same effect. One tries to work with the torque managing its distribution between wheels, the other simply stops it were there is excess

     
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