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    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    schmoell:
    CGX car nut:

    Bloomberg on the death of the German ICE.  https://www.bloomberg.com/features/2019-bmw-electric-car-german-engines/

    Interesting article; thanks for sharing. I wouldn't be surprised if Mercedes and BMW will merge in one way or another 

    Mercedes and BMW? I doubt it.

    I rather think that VW will try to buy more companies (they still have the "cash" I think...) or Mercedes/BMW will try to find a partner in the US and/or in Asia. 

    One thing is for sure: The business will change and I wouldn't be surprised if all car manufacturers, incl. BMW, will be hit even harder over the next couple of years because of that change/switch to EVs. The biggest problem is: Will customers actually switch too and how good or bad will be incentives from governments to push forward with EVs and the electrification. A speed limit in Germany would be (and probably will be) a first step, it is just a matter of time.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Lamborghini Huracan Performante (May 2019), Mercedes E63 S AMG Edition 1 (2018), Mercedes C63 S AMG Cab (2019), Range Rover Evoque Si4 Black Edition (2019)


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    Agree.  The two companies have engaged in a mating dance for several years.  As you are aware, economies of scale drive the industry and combined with commoditization with the move to EVs, this means consolidation is a likely strategy. 


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    CGX car nut:

    Agree.  The two companies have engaged in a mating dance for several years.  As you are aware, economies of scale drive the industry and combined with commoditization with the move to EVs, this means consolidation is a likely strategy. 

    BMW and Mercedes merging would be crazy in my opinion, it would destroy the brand awareness of both, big mistake, for whatever reason the merger would happen. This would only help VW. 


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Lamborghini Huracan Performante (May 2019), Mercedes E63 S AMG Edition 1 (2018), Mercedes C63 S AMG Cab (2019), Range Rover Evoque Si4 Black Edition (2019)


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    "Economy of scale" is one thing, the other is investments in new technology and my view is, that they are both to "small" for this. Then we have politics, the Deutschland AG and Daimler IPO'ing the truck division. Don't know how to fix the "brand problem" but something similar has certainly been done multiple times. We'll see ..


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    I could see a congomerate happening where they make and use common batteries, electric motors etc. No one will care about the battery other than the size of it just like no one cares who makes your gas tank. Same will go for the motors. Just like standardized USB plugs for electronics it will be the things around those components that people care about. 


    --

    Past-President, Porsche Club of America - Upper Canada Region


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    I think much like how BMW and Toyota collaborated on platform development for the Z4 and Toyota Supra, we will see similar collaboration on EV components, such as batteries. I wouldn't be surprised if BMW and Mercedes former a joint venture to develop and manufacture batteries.  VW and Ford could expand their existing alliance to build commercial vehicles and pickup trucks to include EVs. Let's also not forget the additional brand extensions into the actual EV charging stations, a service organization that is no longer tied to a physical dealer service location and ride sharing.  We are witnessing the reshaping of the auto industry somewhat akin to what happened 100 years ago. 


    --

    2016 Porsche 991 Carrera GTS  Black with AeroKit Cup Package,  2017 Porsche Cayenne Platinum  Purpurite Metallic, New York


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    bobr:

    I think much like how BMW and Toyota collaborated on platform development for the Z4 and Toyota Supra, we will see similar collaboration on EV components, such as batteries. I wouldn't be surprised if BMW and Mercedes former a joint venture to develop and manufacture batteries.  VW and Ford could expand their existing alliance to build commercial vehicles and pickup trucks to include EVs. Let's also not forget the additional brand extensions into the actual EV charging stations, a service organization that is no longer tied to a physical dealer service location and ride sharing.  We are witnessing the reshaping of the auto industry somewhat akin to what happened 100 years ago. 

    This is why one wrote about commoditization in addition to economies of scale.  Volkswagen, building of the work of Toyota, fully developed the component set model for production of differentiated product portfolios with optimized economics.  This is something that the Tesla cultists fail to appreciate with the Audi e-tron when they utter their self-perceived epithet about the vehicle being a modified Q5.  The e-tron shares numerous component sets with other Audis and a Porsche or Volkswagen including suspension systems and other costly subsystems.  This is why Volkswagen Group is profitable and Tesla is not.  


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    VW makes money because they have been milking their customers for decades. The simple fact that Tesla has made money two quartes in a row only after 6 years is simply amazing, let alone the fact that they build the best EV on the planet for sale today. That’s what the Tesla nihilists fail to see. And that’s why the Germans are scared. It will be a long and tortuous road, but if Tesla makes it, the Germans will be severely dismissed.


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    Whatever you can say about Tesla the fact is they have initiated the EV market. Since the German manufactures have invested so much in the ICE (and diesels) they just "blocked" the EV progress. This in order to keep their position, investments and workforce. Now they are slowly seeing a treat of the EV cars. For me the first real EV development of German manufactures is the Porsche Mission E. The others like Audi or Mercedes are just ICE cars adapted for E-motor. This is the reason I ordered a Taycan and looking forward to it. Will the EC’s like Taycan (or Tesla’s) change the world or save the world: I do not think so. Are there limitations because of battery use: sure. But I just what to experience a new driving technology as addition to my present cars. For the time being I will keep the Cayenne S.

    Your comment of milking money I do not understand, people buy cars out of free will. There are enough cars to choose from. So more power to VW that they can create "expensive" cars everybody wants. (same goes for Apple in this respect)


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    JR-550:

    Whatever you can say about Tesla the fact is they have initiated the EV market. Since the German manufactures have invested so much in the ICE (and diesels) they just "blocked" the EV progress. This in order to keep their position, investments and workforce. Now they are slowly seeing a treat of the EV cars. For me the first real EV development of German manufactures is the Porsche Mission E. The others like Audi or Mercedes are just ICE cars adapted for E-motor. This is the reason I ordered a Taycan and looking forward to it. Will the EC’s like Taycan (or Tesla’s) change the world or save the world: I do not think so. Are there limitations because of battery use: sure. But I just what to experience a new driving technology as addition to my present cars. For the time being I will keep the Cayenne S.

    Your comment of milking money I do not understand, people buy cars out of free will. There are enough cars to choose from. So more power to VW that they can create "expensive" cars everybody wants. (same goes for Apple in this respect)

    The strategy of the German and Japanese and US OEMS (excluding Tesla) is still right:

    - EV cars are and will remain physically inefficient (total efficiency is lower than modern combustion engine driven cars)
    - EV cars are economically inefficient (higher purchasing price, high cost of recycling, cost of getting the infrastructure in place)

    The only chance for EV cars are massive subsidies. Chances are low that these will be available for a long time, in democracies. In China it might look different.

    The picture might change in several decades, of course, should a nw battery technology emerge. But nobody can tell when this might happen.

    EV cars are the biggest nonsense - give today's technology.


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    You are partially correct. But take in account the size of the ICE market in terms of money spend in research EV will never get a break through. If the same mooney would be invested into the EV technology a breakthrough would be quicker. The companies which have invested heavily into ICE will try to hold back the EV just to protect their investments. Hence government subsidies are necessary.


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    This is no Tesla Model S rival and definitely well ahead of the Model 3 too.  https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/features/first-ride-porsche-taycan-development-prototype


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    Until now Tesla was the EV car, once the Taycan comes out and its VAG variants, Teslas will be seen on a different light as they will be held to a different standard than before and no longer compared to ICE cars, and that is the key.

    LetLme put itbthis way which makes iticrystal clear. If Tesla made ICE cars would they be successful against BMW-Merc-AUDI-Porsche ICE competition? ... well, about as much as a Ford or a Chevy is  ... And that is what awaits Tes!a in the coming years. Taycan is only the first that will make this evident once reporters, youtubers, and media get to test it and customer cars hit the street.


    --

    ⇒ Carlos - Porsche 991 Carrera GTS


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    CGX car nut:

    This is no Tesla Model S rival and definitely well ahead of the Model 3 too.  https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/features/first-ride-porsche-taycan-development-prototype

    This article has nothing in it that can relate to how the Taycan will be in the real world... Range? Real acceleration numbers? Handling on dry roads, not on ice? Ridiculous. The writer HAD to write something nice because he was invited by Porsche to drive a prototype. Period.Smiley


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    Carlos from Spain:

    Until now Tesla was the EV car, once the Taycan comes out and its VAG variants, Teslas will be seen on a different light as they will be held to a different standard than before and no longer compared to ICE cars, and that is the key.

    LetLme put itbthis way which makes iticrystal clear. If Tesla made ICE cars would they be successful against BMW-Merc-AUDI-Porsche ICE competition? ... well, about as much as a Ford or a Chevy is  ... And that is what awaits Tes!a in the coming years. Taycan is only the first that will make this evident once reporters, youtubers, and media get to test it and customer cars hit the street.

    I believe you are completely wrong. Tesla has a 5 years advantage in developing EV and EV technology and a 7 to 12 years advantage in software and interior design. We have not even yet seen a concept car that comes close to what Tesla sells today in terms of real life performance and practicality (ie range and interior interface). Once the reviews of the competition will trickle in and once real life feedback appears that the range on VW models is simply way too small to use today, let’s see what happens. Meanwhile, the rumors peg for a 400 miles Tesla S by year end Smiley


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    SciFrog:
    Carlos from Spain:

    Until now Tesla was the EV car, once the Taycan comes out and its VAG variants, Teslas will be seen on a different light as they will be held to a different standard than before and no longer compared to ICE cars, and that is the key.

    LetLme put itbthis way which makes iticrystal clear. If Tesla made ICE cars would they be successful against BMW-Merc-AUDI-Porsche ICE competition? ... well, about as much as a Ford or a Chevy is  ... And that is what awaits Tes!a in the coming years. Taycan is only the first that will make this evident once reporters, youtubers, and media get to test it and customer cars hit the street.

    . Meanwhile, the rumors peg for a 400 miles Tesla S by year end Smiley

    Sure, there are always many rumors at Tesla... But no results.


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    SciFrog:
    Carlos from Spain:

    Until now Tesla was the EV car, once the Taycan comes out and its VAG variants, Teslas will be seen on a different light as they will be held to a different standard than before and no longer compared to ICE cars, and that is the key.

    LetLme put itbthis way which makes iticrystal clear. If Tesla made ICE cars would they be successful against BMW-Merc-AUDI-Porsche ICE competition? ... well, about as much as a Ford or a Chevy is  ... And that is what awaits Tes!a in the coming years. Taycan is only the first that will make this evident once reporters, youtubers, and media get to test it and customer cars hit the street.

    I believe you are completely wrong. Tesla has a 5 years advantage in developing EV and EV technology and a 7 to 12 years advantage in software and interior design

    Sorry but this made me chuckle a bit, you do realize car manufacturers have been making car interiors for over a century right? 

    How does Tesla with their cheap interiors, which are not exactly the envy of neither the luxury car or sportscar industry's, have and advantage in development? I swear, it's like the twilight zone in here sometimes yes

    As to EV tech, Porsche has extensive experience with their 919 racing programme, leading to regenerative braking, EV engine performance and battery tech experience and knowledge, then couple that with their incomparable knowledge on how to develop and build everything else about a car than Tesla means that if the preliminary informations are true, the Taycan will leapfrog Teslas as the reference for EV tech, like Porsche did with 919 to its competition. Don't think many doubt that the Taycan will be the best EV on the market in terms of sophistication, real word performance, and luxury, and this just in their first attempt, imagine when the second gen VAG variants come out targeting other vehicle classes, uses, and pricetags...


    --

    ⇒ Carlos - Porsche 991 Carrera GTS


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    Carlos, I agree. The Taycan will be the best driving EV. For me it is simple with the Taycan on the market you will have a choice. There will be parts in which the Tesla is better and parts were the Taycan is better. I am 100% sure that the interior is better of the Porsche.

     


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    I never chime in here because I neigher hate/love Tesla’s but saying their interiors can hold a candle against the german brands is a bit much imo...


    --

    997.2 4S / BMW X5 40e / Donkervoort GT 


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    From the sound of it I am shocked that Porsche did not bankrupt all ICE car makers thirty years ago. How on earth do you know Porsche will eliminate Tesla if Kia is still around?  For that matter why is a single brand not dominating everything?  Hmmm


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    JR-550:

    Carlos, I agree. The Taycan will be the best driving EV. For me it is simple with the Taycan on the market you will have a choice. There will be parts in which the Tesla is better and parts were the Taycan is better. I am 100% sure that the interior is better of the Porsche.

     

    Exactly. Porsche will handle better and have a nicer interior and a much higher price tag. Tesla will be better straight line performance and better ange.

    My model X interior is not up to my last Macan quality, which was superb. But is is more than enough to have the luxury tag attached to it. It is nice, fresh, modern, minimalist with no buttons and has a huge very useful iPad in the middle and a great dash screen. Mercedes dash screen for example is an absolute disgrace, waste of space. The wood is very nice with a natural texture and the quality of materials used is nice, and very little exposed plastic. All combined, to me the quality is higher than the GL450 I have rented and much better than a Q5 or a series 3 in regular trim. Again, more than good enough.

    I am baffled that some here just don’t believe people who actually own and use these Teslas. If you believed what they write Tesla couldn’t sell a single car Smiley Fact is I have zero Porsches or VW in my garage today.

    Tesla is a startup and goes in many directions at the same time, trying to reinvent the way cars are sold today. It is a messy process.


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-04-15/selling-cars-from-vending-machines-makes-dad-son-billionaires

    People hate dealers. Tesla is going in the right direction even if they have not found the right balance yet.


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    Agree that trend is away from customers going to dealers to buy, but lots of legal and practical issues remain.  Dealers aren't going away very soon.

    On Tesla/Taycan issue, I doubt that either brand will poach significantly from the other.  Different cars/brands, different customer demographics.  Tesla satisfies its market base now, and probably will continue to do so, as does/will Porsche. Ultimately Tesla will be bought out by a larger manufacturer, but hey, so was Porsche. I for one am grateful for both brands...


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    SciFrog:
    JR-550:

    Carlos, I agree. The Taycan will be the best driving EV. For me it is simple with the Taycan on the market you will have a choice. There will be parts in which the Tesla is better and parts were the Taycan is better. I am 100% sure that the interior is better of the Porsche.

     

    Exactly. Porsche will handle better and have a nicer interior and a much higher price tag. Tesla will be better straight line performance and better ange.

     

    Are you serious? Tesla can do 2-3 full accelerations and will then go into „emergency“ mode and slow down. For the US it might be good enough, for the Autobahn Tesla is a joke. Tesla is a typical US car. They build it „good enough“. But when you look behind the facade you see all the poor compromises. You get what you pay for. Porsche is a premium product at a higher price point. But premium.


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    MKSGR:
    SciFrog:
    JR-550:

    Carlos, I agree. The Taycan will be the best driving EV. For me it is simple with the Taycan on the market you will have a choice. There will be parts in which the Tesla is better and parts were the Taycan is better. I am 100% sure that the interior is better of the Porsche.

     

    Exactly. Porsche will handle better and have a nicer interior and a much higher price tag. Tesla will be better straight line performance and better ange.

     

    Are you serious? Tesla can do 2-3 full accelerations and will then go into „emergency“ mode and slow down. For the US it might be good enough, for the Autobahn Tesla is a joke. Tesla is a typical US car. They build it „good enough“. But when you look behind the facade you see all the poor compromises. You get what you pay for. Porsche is a premium product at a higher price point. But premium.

    Sigh. There are no EV on the market that can deal with the Autobahn properly because of range. Not even Porsche has announced anything that’s better on that front. If you have been reading anything that has been posted here, what do you think the range of the Taycan will be on the Autobahn at high speed? 100km, maybe...Smiley

    Multiple high speed accelerations? What for? To brag with you friends at the local meet and greet? In real life, it is utterly useless and that’s not what Teslas were designed for. Porsche wants to design it this way so it can charge people more money for a feature they will never use? Well It has worked for Porsche to sell overpriced Panameras so why not continue SmileySmiley

    Once again, the Taycan is a marvelous product and will be top of the EV crop with the highest price tag of them all. But sale and resale numbers will be dictated by range and lack of rear space/usability as an everyday car. It is also unclear how it will cannibalizes Panamera, Macan and even 911 sales, not that it is more GT than ever and since the Taycan seems to be a very small sedan.


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    Hi everyone. I've been following this site for some time now regarding the Taycan since it seems to be one of the better sites for news and tidbits about it. I'm really interested in EVs, but not so much ICEs/sport cars, and I'm curious to know why so many think the Porsche will be so much better than the Teslas?

    I was recently able to drive the Audi Etron and while it was nice inside and quiet, the performance was not really near any of the Teslas, it wasn't really that big in terms of utility, and there was nothing like Autopilot. It was also really expensive.

    I know people have high expectations for Porsche and some mentioned their 919 race car for expertise, but I'd point out that Toyota has nothing better than Tesla and they were more or less just as competent in that race series. It's clear that having a fast hybrid race car doesn't necessarily translate to mainstream BEV vehicles.

    So far Volkswagen group hasn't shown any EV technology that compared favorably to Teslas from many years ago. The Etron has very bad efficiency, and though they claimed this is a trade-off for faster charging, Tesla has just shown they can charge just as quick with the latest Supercharger update and maintain their class leading efficiency. The Model 3 charges at a rate of 1000 "miles per hour".

    I'm sure the Taycan will be good enough and probably handle great and have luxury interior, but I think it's quite a big stretch to say they are or will be ahead in actually BEV technology. So far the Volkswagen group has not demonstrated any class leading technology in the BEV field. Power electronics is a completely different field than the automotive engineering that Porsche is used to.

    If Volkswagen and Porsche end up matching the acceleration performance and efficiencies of a Model S, that would actually be a big disappointment being that the Model S has been available for 7 years now and still hasn't even upgraded to the latest battery or electric motor technology of the 3. The Etron has just failed in doing so, so why such high expectations for Porsche technology?

    Also, Tesla's Autopilot is way ahead of Audi and Porsche, though I don't think Porsche even has anything autonomous other than basic lane holding systems. I know this is more of sports car forum, but not having autonomous driving aides is a big drawback. If the Etron and Taycan don't have them now, they likely won't for 5+ years longer.

    I'm still very excited to see Porsche's final product since all EVs are good for pushing the global transition to EVs, but I just don't see any technological evidence that indicates it will be groundbreaking. Does anyone have any actual data to back up these expectations and claims regarding Volkswagen group technology? I see lots of expectations and hopes, but Volkswagen has become quite the joke in terms of EV announcements. They constantly announce vehicles and concepts with fantastic specs, but then they say "Expected in 2022" or something. The majority of their products are vaporware still and the ones that did show up did not turn out so impressive.

    One last thing. I really encourage some of you to rent a Tesla for a bit if possible. There seems to be a lot of misinformed opinions about it and EVs in general. 


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    keithw:

    Hi everyone. I've been following this site for some time now regarding the Taycan since it seems to be one of the better sites for news and tidbits about it. I'm really interested in EVs, but not so much ICEs/sport cars, and I'm curious to know why so many think the Porsche will be so much better than the Teslas?

    I was recently able to drive the Audi Etron and while it was nice inside and quiet, the performance was not really near any of the Teslas, it wasn't really that big in terms of utility, and there was nothing like Autopilot. It was also really expensive.

    I know people have high expectations for Porsche and some mentioned their 919 race car for expertise, but I'd point out that Toyota has nothing better than Tesla and they were more or less just as competent in that race series. It's clear that having a fast hybrid race car doesn't necessarily translate to mainstream BEV vehicles.

    So far Volkswagen group hasn't shown any EV technology that compared favorably to Teslas from many years ago. The Etron has very bad efficiency, and though they claimed this is a trade-off for faster charging, Tesla has just shown they can charge just as quick with the latest Supercharger update and maintain their class leading efficiency. The Model 3 charges at a rate of 1000 "miles per hour".

    I'm sure the Taycan will be good enough and probably handle great and have luxury interior, but I think it's quite a big stretch to say they are or will be ahead in actually BEV technology. So far the Volkswagen group has not demonstrated any class leading technology in the BEV field. Power electronics is a completely different field than the automotive engineering that Porsche is used to.

    If Volkswagen and Porsche end up matching the acceleration performance and efficiencies of a Model S, that would actually be a big disappointment being that the Model S has been available for 7 years now and still hasn't even upgraded to the latest battery or electric motor technology of the 3. The Etron has just failed in doing so, so why such high expectations for Porsche technology?

    Also, Tesla's Autopilot is way ahead of Audi and Porsche, though I don't think Porsche even has anything autonomous other than basic lane holding systems. I know this is more of sports car forum, but not having autonomous driving aides is a big drawback. If the Etron and Taycan don't have them now, they likely won't for 5+ years longer.

    I'm still very excited to see Porsche's final product since all EVs are good for pushing the global transition to EVs, but I just don't see any technological evidence that indicates it will be groundbreaking. Does anyone have any actual data to back up these expectations and claims regarding Volkswagen group technology? I see lots of expectations and hopes, but Volkswagen has become quite the joke in terms of EV announcements. They constantly announce vehicles and concepts with fantastic specs, but then they say "Expected in 2022" or something. The majority of their products are vaporware still and the ones that did show up did not turn out so impressive.

    One last thing. I really encourage some of you to rent a Tesla for a bit if possible. There seems to be a lot of misinformed opinions about it and EVs in general. 

    Major reason for our high expectations is that it is a Porsche. They rarely disappoint. But you are right, we should wait for the final product and see if expectations are matched. I am positive though!


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    Porsche interiors consistently disappoint! Look at the 996. Rubbish. Like really rubbish. Even the modern ones aren't great for the money. A Panamera Turbo is near the price of a base Bentley or nicely fitted out S Class. It certainly doesn't compete. The original Cayennes were maybe not terrible but certainly plasticy. We can't all complain that Porsche needs to up their interior game from one side of our mouth and then say that Tesla will never be a Porsche out of the other. 

    As for high speed runs, multiple drag races etc. No one, certainly no one in North America and soon enough no one in Europe does them. I loose my car if I get caught at 150km/h. Costs me about $10k all told. Which means I almost never go faster than 140. So I don't care at all about range at 200km/h... Get caught drag racing? Loose my car, costs me about $10k all told. So I don't drag race. 


    --

    Past-President, Porsche Club of America - Upper Canada Region


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    As SciFrog wrote, different OEMs have different design goals and therefore have to make different tradeoffs. At the end of the day air resistance is quadratic with speed and the energy for this has to come from somewhere. You can add more weight for cool seats, noise isolation and better battery cooling, but this will decrease efficiency. A 100kWh battery is about the equivalent of 10l gasoline and except for some Germans no one drives a car at 200 kpa for an hour. 

    Germans like to make things perfect, sometimes more than perfect. It's just our attitude and more often than not prevents us from getting anything done at all. And we hate disruptive tech. Looking at ELVs I think that the game is on and there is a lot of space for a lot of companies. Tesla has a multi year advantage and the Germans (still) have the cash and maybe finally some motivation. For certain Porsche will build a remarkable product but it will not beat physics and I'd not be surprised if the Chinese will win at the end.

    @Keithw, Welcome to Rennteam, the shark tank of car forums indecision


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    schmoell:

    As SciFrog wrote, different OEMs have different design goals and therefore have to make different tradeoffs. At the end of the day air resistance is quadratic with speed and the energy for this has to come from somewhere. You can add more weight for cool seats, noise isolation and better battery cooling, but this will decrease efficiency. A 100kWh battery is about the equivalent of 10l gasoline and except for some Germans no one drives a car at 200 kpa for an hour. 

    Germans like to make things perfect, sometimes more than perfect. It's just our attitude and more often than not prevents us from getting anything done at all. And we hate disruptive tech. Looking at ELVs I think that the game is on and there is a lot of space for a lot of companies. Tesla has a multi year advantage and the Germans (still) have the cash and maybe finally some motivation. For certain Porsche will build a remarkable product but it will not beat physics and I'd not be surprised if the Chinese will win at the end.

    @Keithw, Welcome to Rennteam, the shark tank of car forums indecision

    Correct, different manufacturers have different parameters that the companies optimize with respect to other manufacturers.  Volkswagen Group and the other German manufacturers are not following Tesla in the goals of setting the quickest possible acceleration times, instead these manufacturers are looking at developing EVs that are pure substitutes for ICE vehicles with the hopes of making the transitions as transparent to public as possible.  Therefore, under this set of market-based criteria, certain offsets are made.  Additionally, Volkswagen Group, for example, have rigorous durability measures that every vehicle, before it enters production, must meet, include cars like Bugattis.  

    In the United States, the automakers self-report to the EPA the various fuel economy tests based on fixed set of standards.  Volkswagen Group, post-dieselgate, have definitely taken a very conservative approach to testing the Audi e-tron and this is reflected in 204 mile range of its first mainstream SUV EV.  However, given a couple of comparison tests recently published on Auto Express and Auto, Motor, und Sport between the Audi e-tron and the Tesla Model X, the deficiency in range for the Audi isn't as great as the 204 mile range suggests.  Auto, Motor, und Sport  on its high speed tests found that the Audi consumed 24.8 kWh/100 km while the Tesla Model X was found to consume 25.0 kWh/100 km.  This does much to undermine arguments that the Audi is incredibly less efficient than the Tesla.  

    Auto, Motor, und Sport: https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/elektroauto/audi-e-tron-tesla-model-x-e-suv/

    AutoExpress:  https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/audi/e-tron/106574/audi-e-tron-vs-tesla-model-x-suvs-face-off-in-electric-car-showdown

     


     
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