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    Re: [2021] Formula 1

    Because of Masi, and the FIA and Liberty Media, Max's first championship is overshadowed in controversies forever.

    Masi gifted Max the win on one side, yet clouding it on the other. 

    Some says it's what goes around comes around.

    There need an overhaul of how the rules are written and wording that's for sure.


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    Re: [2021] Formula 1

    How come a guy like Masi doesn't need to resign after such f*** ups... ? It was a mess. 


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    2018 White 911 GT3


    Re: [2021] Formula 1

    Gauss:

    How come a guy like Masi doesn't need to resign after such f*** ups... ? It was a mess. 

    If this goes under the legal microscope...  C7BEAB03-A272-4B0C-AF73-D01AEAA5AA36.gif

    F5E84C5E-7E1B-4491-A0CD-0AE28DC7E41E.jpeg

    ...Masi (and others) may well be gone! Smiley


    Re: [2021] Formula 1

    Gauss:

    How come a guy like Masi doesn't need to resign after such f*** ups... ? It was a mess. 

    The cynical side of me says because he delivered what the Owners of F1 and Netflix wanted.   A championship that came down to the last lap in the last race that we are still talking about days later... and will be talked about for years to come.


    Re: [2021] Formula 1

    Everyone has had over 48 hours to analyze decisions that were made in a few, fluid minutes. They aren't going to fire Masi over this.


    Re: [2021] Formula 1

    JoeRockhead:

    Everyone has had over 48 hours to analyze decisions that were made in a few, fluid minutes. They aren't going to fire Masi over this.

    Correct. Masi made the best decision at the time that met the goal of having the race end under green.  Unfortunately, Mercedes didn’t react quick enough to the changing environment when Latifi crashed. 


    Re: [2021] Formula 1

    CGX car nut:
    JoeRockhead:

    Everyone has had over 48 hours to analyze decisions that were made in a few, fluid minutes. They aren't going to fire Masi over this.

    Correct. Masi made the best decision at the time that met the goal of having the race end under green.  Unfortunately, Mercedes didn’t react quick enough to the changing environment when Latifi crashed. 

    One would need to believe that if LH had come in for fresh softs, forcing Max to do the opposite, that Massi would not have made different decisions. Now factor in that the ball was in Toto’s hands. He decided on track position - kinda hoping the race was over , maybe not a good assumption with the WC on the line.  It was his call. Max would have been forced to stay out. Would Massi had acted differently in that case?  I don’t thinks so - especially if one factors in the desire to allow for racing and exciting exchanges for Netflix. Hello. Toto misjudged that last tire call. 
    Nice job Mad Max. This championship will taint the FIA and formula one far more than it will taint Max. Another reason why Lewis was such a good 2nd place. FIA knows how some fans feel after this years various shit shows and Lewis is a Pro and has enough business sense to understand his future and status. 
    Fun fact - both races in Austin my wife have seen were won by that years world champion.  We are available for Paddock Club next year :-) 


    Re: [2021] Formula 1

    Both Red Bull and Mercedes made their strategy calls correctly according to the available information and the then current situation.

    Max in the Red Bull was behind, they have enough of a gap to 3rd for a tire change, so why not. Perfect call. No brainer. As it stood, they would have finished in 2nd place no matter what, so why not gamble when it's a freebie.

    Hamilton in the Mercedes don't have enough of a gap for a tire change to come back out in 1st place. They had no reason to change tires that late in the race when the safety car was deployed. Why give up track position for no reason other than fresh tires? Especially when Hamilton is known for delivering quick laps even on worn tires, he is best on the grid in doing so, with Perez a close second. 

    So Hamilton stayed out, while Max went in. When Hamilton came back around again, the gap is even smaller with the safety car bunching the cars up. The rule book and regulations are a known entity, every team read it inside out outside in and plan their strategies according to the SAME rule book. 

    As the field come around again and again, the wreck still hasn't been cleared. It will take more time. EVERYONE in the pit lane knows the procedures as dictated by FIA's rule book, it's black and white. The Race Director can either keep the lapped cars where they are when he decided to call the safety car in, or if he wishes to wave them through, ANY lapped cars, not just the ones in between 1st and 2nd place, will need to pass the safety car and circle around and then the safety car pull into the pits the FOLLOWING lap. There is no ifs buts whatabouts in the rule book. It's crystal clear. Mercedes made their strategy call based on the same rule book followed by all 10 teams and the FIA, so they also made the perfect call to keep Hamilton out. 

    BUT, the rulebook got changed, bent, modified. 

    Masi only let the cars between 1st and 2nd place through, while keeping the cars between 2nd and 3rd place. Those cars there are also lapped, so they are part of the ANY category in the description for ANY LAPPED CARS. 

    Basically Masi committed 2 mistakes. One he didn't waved ALL the ANY category cars through, and also he incorrectly ordered the safety car in without regards to the wording on the rule book for safety car coming in  the FOLLOWING lap after he waved lapped cars. 

    The whole mess is Masi's own doing. It doesn't matter if Max wins or Hamilton wins. Masi didn't follow FIA's regulations. Yes he has a mandate to try and have the race finished under racing conditions, which he clearly was rushing things to try and fit the racing lap in before the end while short cutting the rules. He wasn't on purpose trying to help Max, maybe he was but that's up for debate, for eons, to me that's just the unwanted consequence. 

    Anyways, he had ample chances to change the safety car laps into a red flag event. Like after the first pass. He would have noticed the crew isn't going as quickly as he had hoped when clearing the wreck. Or even the second pass. Stopping the race would have given him enough time to decide things and crew clearing the track. he would have at least 1 lap, if not 2, or even 3 laps in racing condition. 

    Had he done that, he would have gotten the shootout exciting finish Liberty Media wanted. But as it stands, he bent the FIA rules and also clouded Max's achievement. There will forever be an asterisk to Max's 1st title because of him. And while Max really wanted his first title, he really doesn't want the controversies. He wanted a clean win.

    Moot point now. History has already been written. The asterisk will always be there, Masi gifted Max Verstappen his first title. 

    Now even if the Court of Appeals will reversed the results, does Hamilton wanted his 8th to have an asterisk next to it? Of course not. He already has 7, nice to have #8 this year but not desperate for it like Max was desperate for his first. And he would much rather earn #8 nice and clean instead of going for technicality. Much more satisfying to see his 8th being clean while Max earned his 1st with an asterisk. 

    Max will need to win his 2nd to clear things up for good, the blunder by Masi will be forgotten. It's what happened with Hamilton when he won his first with the Glock thing. But once he start winning with Mercedes on his 2nd, and 3rd and all the way to his 7th, nothing else matters. He switched teams and still winning. 

     

     

     


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    Re: [2021] Formula 1

    Here is something that's more food for thought.

    How about Max announcing he is vacating the 2021 title for character/personal integrity. He would much rather win it fair and square instead of benefiting from a screw up from the FIA.

    The would have put an even bigger black eye to the FIA for the 2021 season. It's not like they did anything right this year.

    Pretty sure if they awarded the title to Hamilton after Max vacated it he would have said thanks but no thanks. 

    It will be like fuck you FIA. From both parties. Only fitting for the 2021 season. Imagine the fallout. 

    But nah, don't think Max will give it up just like that. He would much rather have his 1st with an asterisk than none. 

     

     

     


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    Re: [2021] Formula 1

    Leawood911:
    CGX car nut:
    JoeRockhead:

    Everyone has had over 48 hours to analyze decisions that were made in a few, fluid minutes. They aren't going to fire Masi over this.

    Correct. Masi made the best decision at the time that met the goal of having the race end under green.  Unfortunately, Mercedes didn’t react quick enough to the changing environment when Latifi crashed. 

    One would need to believe that if LH had come in for fresh softs, forcing Max to do the opposite, that Massi would not have made different decisions. Now factor in that the ball was in Toto’s hands. He decided on track position - kinda hoping the race was over , maybe not a good assumption with the WC on the line.  It was his call. Max would have been forced to stay out. Would Massi had acted differently in that case?  I don’t thinks so - especially if one factors in the desire to allow for racing and exciting exchanges for Netflix. Hello. Toto misjudged that last tire call. 
    Nice job Mad Max. This championship will taint the FIA and formula one far more than it will taint Max. Another reason why Lewis was such a good 2nd place. FIA knows how some fans feel after this years various shit shows and Lewis is a Pro and has enough business sense to understand his future and status. 
    Fun fact - both races in Austin my wife have seen were won by that years world champion.  We are available for Paddock Club next year :-) 

    Why would RB take an opposite strategy if MB pitted HAM?  That makes little sense.  If HAM had pitted, then VER would need to pit to try to match HAM.


    Re: [2021] Formula 1

    CGX car nut:
    Leawood911:
    CGX car nut:
    JoeRockhead:

    Everyone has had over 48 hours to analyze decisions that were made in a few, fluid minutes. They aren't going to fire Masi over this.

    Correct. Masi made the best decision at the time that met the goal of having the race end under green.  Unfortunately, Mercedes didn’t react quick enough to the changing environment when Latifi crashed. 

    One would need to believe that if LH had come in for fresh softs, forcing Max to do the opposite, that Massi would not have made different decisions. Now factor in that the ball was in Toto’s hands. He decided on track position - kinda hoping the race was over , maybe not a good assumption with the WC on the line.  It was his call. Max would have been forced to stay out. Would Massi had acted differently in that case?  I don’t thinks so - especially if one factors in the desire to allow for racing and exciting exchanges for Netflix. Hello. Toto misjudged that last tire call. 
    Nice job Mad Max. This championship will taint the FIA and formula one far more than it will taint Max. Another reason why Lewis was such a good 2nd place. FIA knows how some fans feel after this years various shit shows and Lewis is a Pro and has enough business sense to understand his future and status. 
    Fun fact - both races in Austin my wife have seen were won by that years world champion.  We are available for Paddock Club next year :-) 

    Why would RB take an opposite strategy if MB pitted HAM?  That makes little sense.  If HAM had pitted, then VER would need to pit to try to match HAM.

    That reply means you aren''t actually used to racing. It actually made perfect sense. 

    Had Hamilton pitted and Max do the same thing, they would have come out exactly the same as before pitting. Unless of course the Red Bull crew delivered a world class pit performance to get Max out before Hamilton which he isn't even close to start off with.  By pitting first before Hamilton they forced Mercedes' hand to stay out instead. One always go for the opposite strategy when its' a close 1st and 2nd to try to shake things up, or 3rd and 4th or 10th and 11th etc. You have heard it a million times on the broadcast for team radios for the car behind, do the other thing the car in front isn't doing. 

    This has nothing to do with being a Max fan or Hamilton fan. This is purely a racing strategy call. Had Max was leading and Hamilton is second, Mercedes would have made the exact same call.

     

     


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    Re: [2021] Formula 1

    Whoopsy:
    CGX car nut:
    Leawood911:
    CGX car nut:
    JoeRockhead:

    Everyone has had over 48 hours to analyze decisions that were made in a few, fluid minutes. They aren't going to fire Masi over this.

    Correct. Masi made the best decision at the time that met the goal of having the race end under green.  Unfortunately, Mercedes didn’t react quick enough to the changing environment when Latifi crashed. 

    One would need to believe that if LH had come in for fresh softs, forcing Max to do the opposite, that Massi would not have made different decisions. Now factor in that the ball was in Toto’s hands. He decided on track position - kinda hoping the race was over , maybe not a good assumption with the WC on the line.  It was his call. Max would have been forced to stay out. Would Massi had acted differently in that case?  I don’t thinks so - especially if one factors in the desire to allow for racing and exciting exchanges for Netflix. Hello. Toto misjudged that last tire call. 
    Nice job Mad Max. This championship will taint the FIA and formula one far more than it will taint Max. Another reason why Lewis was such a good 2nd place. FIA knows how some fans feel after this years various shit shows and Lewis is a Pro and has enough business sense to understand his future and status. 
    Fun fact - both races in Austin my wife have seen were won by that years world champion.  We are available for Paddock Club next year :-) 

    Why would RB take an opposite strategy if MB pitted HAM?  That makes little sense.  If HAM had pitted, then VER would need to pit to try to match HAM.

    That reply means you aren''t actually used to racing. It actually made perfect sense. 

    Had Hamilton pitted and Max do the same thing, they would have come out exactly the same as before pitting. Unless of course the Red Bull crew delivered a world class pit performance to get Max out before Hamilton which he isn't even close to start off with.  By pitting first before Hamilton they forced Mercedes' hand to stay out instead. One always go for the opposite strategy when its' a close 1st and 2nd to try to shake things up, or 3rd and 4th or 10th and 11th etc. You have heard it a million times on the broadcast for team radios for the car behind, do the other thing the car in front isn't doing. 

    This has nothing to do with being a Max fan or Hamilton fan. This is purely a racing strategy call. Had Max was leading and Hamilton is second, Mercedes would have made the exact same call.

     

     

    You literally believe that the tacticians at Brackley use simple heuristics?   Formula One was Money Ball well before the Oakland A’s started quantifying baseball with probabilistic modeling throughout the race.  


    Re: [2021] Formula 1

    Whoopsy is correct, do the opposite of the leading car is a very standard strategy call for the following car in racing.   Mercedes’ having track position and the likelihood of the race ending under safety car if rules were followed to the letter had them in dominant position. 


    Re: [2021] Formula 1

    Whoopsy:

    But nah, don't think Max will give it up just like that. He would much rather have his 1st with an asterisk than none. 

     

     

     

    Max and Lewis both deserved it. Smiley

    It's only a asterisk WC award, to the audience that just tuned in to watch this last race.

    Imo, across the season, Max deserved it, only just. He should have had it wrapped up long ago too. He will learn from that. 

     


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    Re: [2021] Formula 1

    throt:
    Whoopsy:

    But nah, don't think Max will give it up just like that. He would much rather have his 1st with an asterisk than none. 

     

     

     

    Max and Lewis both deserved it. Smiley

    It's only a asterisk WC award, to the audience that just tuned in to watch this last race.

    Imo, across the season, Max deserved it, only just. He should have had it wrapped up long ago too. He will learn from that. 

     

    Once again, you and a few others here are conveniently disregarding invaluable information.  The goal was disclosed to all teams that Masi would try to have the race end in green.  Mercedes made bad decisions on tire management and strategy, costing HAM the title.  Do a decision tree and you will see that the do the opposite plan is suboptimal.  


    Re: [2021] Formula 1

    Thats too simple a way to look at it.  Yes the goal was to end under green... but is it really necessary to also add the disclaimer... "but within the rules"?  Smiley

    How about this, Masi had two options that were within the rules and didnt have to do what he did:

    1) Not reset the lapped cars and go green.

    2) Red Flag the race and restart.

    Both those options within the rules.  But he decided to make up his own rules.  Yes he was under immense pressure and a time crunch, but he had options that were okay within the black and white and did neither.


    Re: [2021] Formula 1

    thuggy:

    Thats too simple a way to look at it.  Yes the goal was to end under green... but is it really necessary to also add the disclaimer... "but within the rules"?  Smiley

    How about this, Masi had two options that were within the rules and didnt have to do what he did:

    1) Not reset the lapped cars and go green.

    2) Red Flag the race and restart.

    Both those options within the rules.  But he decided to make up his own rules.  Yes he was under immense pressure and a time crunch, but he had options that were okay within the black and white and did neither.

    Let the court decide then but the race director was the final arbiter of the rules during the race.  If HAM had won, would you be as vocal about rules not being followed?  The incident didn’t warrant a red flag and many deep down know that.  


    Re: [2021] Formula 1

    A quick scan of the FIA rulebook indicates that the race director has a fair bit of discretion in decision making on several items. I don't know how far this extends, but it makes me wonder that if there is no room for discretion with regard to such matters, why have a race director at all? Can that function not be automated?


    Re: [2021] Formula 1

    Just one remark within the discussions going on here:  Wasn't that simply an enjoyable F1 season ???? I was ENTERTAINED !! blush just, saying, there have been a lot more "boring" seasons in the past ...


    Re: [2021] Formula 1

    I, and many others, have been complaining even before Abu Dhabi that the rules are not being consistently applied in both directions.  Silverstone, SPA, Sao Paolo, Saudi, etc.

    Also the section of the regulations that says Race Director is final arbiter... was probably not intended to cover prescriptive items like safety car procedures etc.   Probably expect an edit of regs over the next couple of months.

    And I have previously stated, I dont want the championship decided in court.  In sport you have to suck up bad calls and move on sometimes.  Brady tuck rule, Saints non pass interference call, Dez non catch.   Each time... rules were modified.

    You are the one saying Mercedes screwed up and Red Bull was brilliant when neither is the case, they both did what they were supposed to do given race strategy and the rules as understood.  One benefited hugely from an official making a questionable call.  What about the other drivers and teams not name Mercedes and Redbull?  They were affected as well by the call with some battles effectively ended with only part of the field being allowed to un lap?


    Re: [2021] Formula 1

    Absolutely enjoyed the season!  Riveted each weekend!  Cant wait till March 20th to do it all over again!


    Re: [2021] Formula 1

    are we still discussing it ? indecision


    Re: [2021] Formula 1

    It's actually quite impressive (by RT standards) that we've managed to stay on one single topic this long. 


    Re: [2021] Formula 1

    Enmanuel:

    It's actually quite impressive (by RT standards) that we've managed to stay on one single topic this long. 

    Don’t blow it for us!


    Re: [2021] Formula 1

    Smiley


    Re: [2021] Formula 1

    Ham was upset about not being able to pit apparently:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n2P2CrpV0SE

     


    Re: [2021] Formula 1

    JoeRockhead:

    Ham was upset about not being able to pit apparently:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n2P2CrpV0SE

     

    This.   Mercedes put HAM on that untenable tire strategy.  


    Re: [2021] Formula 1

    Ham always complains about tires and then sets fastest laps 


    Re: [2021] Formula 1

    JoeRockhead:

    A quick scan of the FIA rulebook indicates that the race director has a fair bit of discretion in decision making on several items. I don't know how far this extends, but it makes me wonder that if there is no room for discretion with regard to such matters, why have a race director at all? Can that function not be automated?

     

    Yes. Race Director have quite liberal power in dictating how a race goes. After all, he is the one that decides whether to send out safety car or bring it back in, or do VSC and stuff.

    There is however a separate section concerning safety car deployment and how it ends, it's all black and white, and step by step. One can't just jump around the steps. But Masi did.

    Masi, and FIA stewards' reasoning fro rejecting Mercedes' challenge was that their interpretation of the rulebook says Masi has absolute power and can disregard what's written in the book about the safety car. 

     


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    Re: [2021] Formula 1

    JoeRockhead:

    Ham was upset about not being able to pit apparently:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n2P2CrpV0SE

     

     

    And he always questions a lot of the strategies given to him, nothing new.

    And we also only got a partial radio communication, we didn't hear everything either.


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