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    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    Let's be serious: Most Porsche drivers drive around with a co-passenger, at max. but no passengers in the back. Of course there are some people, like me, who need the backseats but I don't think this is a serious issue for most buyers.  The wing of course is a different story but I guess a GT3 without a wing wouldn't be a real GT3.  I just wish Porsche would have scrubbed the wing from the 991 Turbo/S, finding a high tech solution for it (like that rumored "foldable" wing).


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), BMW X3 35d (2013)


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    RC:

    Let's be serious: Most Porsche drivers drive around with a co-passenger, at max. but no passengers in the back. Of course there are some people, like me, who need the backseats but I don't think this is a serious issue for most buyers.  The wing of course is a different story but I guess a GT3 without a wing wouldn't be a real GT3.  I just wish Porsche would have scrubbed the wing from the 991 Turbo/S, finding a high tech solution for it (like that rumored "foldable" wing).

    The solution exists already in the Panamera Turbo. But again it is a Porsche tradition that the Turbo must carry a big wing.


    --

    "Form follows function"


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    moo:
    SuzyF:
    moo:

    have you driven an F12 and an F458? believe me, people who like GT3's don't like the F12 and vice versa, unless they are seduced by the F12's refinement. the F12 is a heavy car with a heavy front engine, more a GT than anything else. i can imagine that it gets compared to the turbo S but not to the GT3. pears and apples.

    porsches do cover many bases and i like them for their basic values (this is why i appreciate the GT3 and find the turbo S rather useless...neither basic nor refined, just gross). but believe me (i had a few porsches in my life), they just cannot compete with ferraris in terms of the special feel...nowhere near. but then there is the price difference which puts things in order, except for the turbo S, which looks like an ugly power beetle but costs like a ferrari,

    cheers, peter

    You're missing the point IMO. They were not trying to find the rivals of the GT3 in this article. Would be a bit strange with a Cayman, a Fiesta, a Taxi A45 AMG and so on... (Sorry... Never was and will be a fan of Merc Smiley Smiley)

    The were just looking to find the best performance car of the year. (In their opinion)  A Fiesta is a perfomance car in its own car catagory. The F12 is a new car and also a performance car. The GT3 also... The 458 is an older car, so it would be very strange to see that as a recently introduced car.

    aha, so this is like comparing the best apples to the best pears. ......

    They were indeed comparing the best apples to the best pears. A comparison like this is useless, but it is fun to read. In fact I think every test or comparison is useless. I will never base my purchase on a car magazine's test and I also do not care if the car I like is 0,1 sec faster to 60 or whatever. I buy a car because I like it and it makes me feel good. Car magazine tests don't have any value to me, unless it is a long term review where they do 50000 miles or so with a car. That has value....

    can you please illuminate me with what modern technology the F458 does not have? the only thing that comes to my mind is four wheel steering but only two porsches so far have it. it seems nice but i doubt that it will be a must have on performance cars in the future. other than that?

    What I meant was that the 458 is developed a couple of years ago and doesn't have the benefit of the latest Ferrari bits and pieces, like the F12 does. The car is not as up to date as an F12. Doesn't mean it isn't a great car. Don't get me wrong, but if the 458 was the latest in technologies that Ferrari could offer, they were doing things wrong. It's 5 year old technology. the car was introduced in 2009 or 2010, so developed 2 or more years earlier.

    If hey were comparing rivals of the GT3, then they would have probably gotten a 458. And even then I think the GT3 would have had the preference of most of them, albeit close I guess. The 458 is not as refined, which is not a shame, because the car is already a few years on the market and doesn't have the benefit of the most modern technologies. On the other hand, that is what some people attracts to the car.

     

    have you driven a 458? not as refined as the GT3?????? sorry, but this is utter nonsense. the GT3 is much more raw, which defines exactly its appeal...closer to a race car. but in refinement it can't compete.

    Yes I have driven a 458... Refinement was maybe not the right word to use, I'm sorry for that. What I meant was the refinement inside the cabin. The car feels not a solid as a 991 (I don't say it isn't), or even more the new Audi R8, which is in my opinion even better built than a 991.
    Build quality is for me a very important factor. The interior is the place I spent all my time driving the car. so it has to be almost perfect.    ...Of course, this is a matter of personal preference.

    What the Ferrari does have as an advantage is the overall feeling the cabin gives. It's feels and looks more special than both German cars. This doesn't always mean it is better, but it can make one feel better (also very important IMO)

    You're right about the special feel a Ferrari can give one, but that isn't different for a 911. It just attracts different people. A 911 feels more special to me than a 458. Other people think the other way around. That's a good thing, otherwise everyone was driving a Porsche Smiley

     

    special is not a word that comes to my mind when i hear porsche. but to each his (her) own.

    This is always a matter of taste. For me the 458 is the least attractive Ferrari. to me it looks already kind of outdated, which is strange for Ferrari, because a lot of their designs are timeless and classy. But like you said, each to their own on this point. I do love Ferrari (in fact all Italian brands, as you know) but the 458 is just not my cup of tea I think, although I adore the exhaust note. I would still choose it over a McLaren in a heartbeat if I had to make that choice.

    One thing I can't say anything about is the fact that when a 458 drives by, I will always look at it, regardless if I like it or not. It's a Ferrari and every Ferrari has something special.

    But please... Don't feel offended or whatever.
    I was just giving my own opinion on the subject. Everybody should drive what they like. I will always buy what I like, not what other people like. Different people, different preferences. If we all would like the same cars, the world would be a boring place to live in. Smiley


    --

    Suzy

     


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    SuzyF:
    moo:
    SuzyF:
    moo:

    have you driven an F12 and an F458? believe me, people who like GT3's don't like the F12 and vice versa, unless they are seduced by the F12's refinement. the F12 is a heavy car with a heavy front engine, more a GT than anything else. i can imagine that it gets compared to the turbo S but not to the GT3. pears and apples.

    porsches do cover many bases and i like them for their basic values (this is why i appreciate the GT3 and find the turbo S rather useless...neither basic nor refined, just gross). but believe me (i had a few porsches in my life), they just cannot compete with ferraris in terms of the special feel...nowhere near. but then there is the price difference which puts things in order, except for the turbo S, which looks like an ugly power beetle but costs like a ferrari,

    cheers, peter

    You're missing the point IMO. They were not trying to find the rivals of the GT3 in this article. Would be a bit strange with a Cayman, a Fiesta, a Taxi A45 AMG and so on... (Sorry... Never was and will be a fan of Merc Smiley Smiley)

    The were just looking to find the best performance car of the year. (In their opinion)  A Fiesta is a perfomance car in its own car catagory. The F12 is a new car and also a performance car. The GT3 also... The 458 is an older car, so it would be very strange to see that as a recently introduced car.

    aha, so this is like comparing the best apples to the best pears. ......

    They were indeed comparing the best apples to the best pears. A comparison like this is useless, but it is fun to read. In fact I think every test or comparison is useless. I will never base my purchase on a car magazine's test and I also do not care if the car I like is 0,1 sec faster to 60 or whatever. I buy a car because I like it and it makes me feel good. Car magazine tests don't have any value to me, unless it is a long term review where they do 50000 miles or so with a car. That has value....

    can you please illuminate me with what modern technology the F458 does not have? the only thing that comes to my mind is four wheel steering but only two porsches so far have it. it seems nice but i doubt that it will be a must have on performance cars in the future. other than that?

    What I meant was that the 458 is developed a couple of years ago and doesn't have the benefit of the latest Ferrari bits and pieces, like the F12 does. The car is not as up to date as an F12. Doesn't mean it isn't a great car. Don't get me wrong, but if the 458 was the latest in technologies that Ferrari could offer, they were doing things wrong. It's 5 year old technology. the car was introduced in 2009 or 2010, so developed 2 or more years earlier.

    If hey were comparing rivals of the GT3, then they would have probably gotten a 458. And even then I think the GT3 would have had the preference of most of them, albeit close I guess. The 458 is not as refined, which is not a shame, because the car is already a few years on the market and doesn't have the benefit of the most modern technologies. On the other hand, that is what some people attracts to the car.

     

    have you driven a 458? not as refined as the GT3?????? sorry, but this is utter nonsense. the GT3 is much more raw, which defines exactly its appeal...closer to a race car. but in refinement it can't compete.

    Yes I have driven a 458... Refinement was maybe not the right word to use, I'm sorry for that. What I meant was the refinement inside the cabin. The car feels not a solid as a 991 (I don't say it isn't), or even more the new Audi R8, which is in my opinion even better built than a 991.
    Build quality is for me a very important factor. The interior is the place I spent all my time driving the car. so it has to be almost perfect.    ...Of course, this is a matter of personal preference.

    What the Ferrari does have as an advantage is the overall feeling the cabin gives. It's feels and looks more special than both German cars. This doesn't always mean it is better, but it can make one feel better (also very important IMO)

    You're right about the special feel a Ferrari can give one, but that isn't different for a 911. It just attracts different people. A 911 feels more special to me than a 458. Other people think the other way around. That's a good thing, otherwise everyone was driving a Porsche Smiley

     

    special is not a word that comes to my mind when i hear porsche. but to each his (her) own.

    This is always a matter of taste. For me the 458 is the least attractive Ferrari. to me it looks already kind of outdated, which is strange for Ferrari, because a lot of their designs are timeless and classy. But like you said, each to their own on this point. I do love Ferrari (in fact all Italian brands, as you know) but the 458 is just not my cup of tea I think, although I adore the exhaust note. I would still choose it over a McLaren in a heartbeat if I had to make that choice.

    One thing I can't say anything about is the fact that when a 458 drives by, I will always look at it, regardless if I like it or not. It's a Ferrari and every Ferrari has something special.

    But please... Don't feel offended or whatever.
    I was just giving my own opinion on the subject. Everybody should drive what they like. I will always buy what I like, not what other people like. Different people, different preferences. If we all would like the same cars, the world would be a boring place to live in. Smiley

    i am surely not offended but sorry suzy, this warrants a factual correction: the F458 has every bit the same technology as the F12 (of course not the 12 cyl. engine). the F458 S even tops it tech wise. also, ferrari has learned a lot in terms of build quality. my 2013 model easily beats my friend's 991 C4S in terms of build quality. i am not so much taken by ferrari interior design but at least it doesn't have those empty buttons on the console like the 991 which look grossly off the shelve. the F458 is an extremely planted car which remains stable under every speed (something that cannot be said about carreras, 991 better though than 997).  it turns in like nothing i have ever tried (almost everything except veyrons, paganis....). when the F458 came out 3 years ago it was five years ahead of the competition, literally.

    7 years free service make it even a good economic proposition.

    i chose the F458 because the GT3 seemed too hardcore. now i am sometime longing for a more visceral driving experience and feel the F458 is maybe over the top in its DD qualities (i'll put winter tyres on next week and drive it into the swiss alps, will be fun). not sure i can survive the first GT3's being delivered without ordering one to complement my DD fezza.

    tomorrow i shall test drive a turbo S though....for the fun of it.

    cheers, peter


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    I have to admit that the car I drove was a very early model, so maybe that isn't a comparison to the 2013 car. It had a lot of rattles in the cabin, stitching that wasn't done well and the alu transition between black and saddle leather was not straight along the dash and big gaos between those panels left from the steering wheel. Those are things i don't like in such an expensive car, but it could have been an occasional flaw of course. The rattles however were very annoying. (i'm almost allergic to rattles in an interior. One of the reasons I never want a sunroof in a 911). The owner of the car got pretty angry at me when I pointed all those things, but I can't help it that I expect much more of a Ferrari than that car showed me.

    Maybe it's a bit short sighted of me to judge the car, based on one driving experience. But the experience I had was extremely disappointing (or my expectations were too high).

    i didn't know about the 7 year service BTW. Never heard of that. Must be something for UK only?? (I have to admit that I'm not really into Ferrari options and specs)


    --

    Suzy

     


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    Suzy, with all due respect, an Italian product can never be as well made as a German one. People, who buy Italian from a washing machine to an automobile must be conscious of that. Flair and design yes, but thoroughness and execution is poor!

    I even changed my Bianchi bicycle last week for a not so celebrated German one, and the difference in finish, noise and smoothness is from the earth to the sky.


    --

    "Form follows function"


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    reginos:

    Suzy, with all due respect, an Italian product can never be as well made as a German one. People, who buy Italian from a washing machine to an automobile must be conscious of that. Flair and design yes, but thoroughness and execution is poor!

    I even changed my Bianchi bicycle last week for a not so celebrated German one, and the difference in finish, noise and smoothness is from the earth to the sky.

    10 years ago maybe, but nowadays buildquality has improved a lot, even in Italy. I don't expect them to be as well put together as an audi or porsche, but things like rattles and faulty stitching are not to be expected in such an expensive car. Seriously... I've had Alfa Romeos that were better built than that particular car I drove.

    On a non-serious note: my mom is also Italian bullt and after 53 years all bits and pieces are still on.... Nothing has fallen off yet, so somehow they know how to do it properly!Smiley


    --

    Suzy

     


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    My 997 Turbo S had rattles and buzzes from new. The dealer had a number of goes at fixing them but there was one which just kept coming back. It really did detract from the driving experience but it's just been traded in now for a GT3 coming spring next year.

    Martin

     


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    SuzyF:
    moo:
    SuzyF:
    moo:

    have you driven an F12 and an F458? believe me, people who like GT3's don't like the F12 and vice versa, unless they are seduced by the F12's refinement. the F12 is a heavy car with a heavy front engine, more a GT than anything else. i can imagine that it gets compared to the turbo S but not to the GT3. pears and apples.

    porsches do cover many bases and i like them for their basic values (this is why i appreciate the GT3 and find the turbo S rather useless...neither basic nor refined, just gross). but believe me (i had a few porsches in my life), they just cannot compete with ferraris in terms of the special feel...nowhere near. but then there is the price difference which puts things in order, except for the turbo S, which looks like an ugly power beetle but costs like a ferrari,

    cheers, peter

    You're missing the point IMO. They were not trying to find the rivals of the GT3 in this article. Would be a bit strange with a Cayman, a Fiesta, a Taxi A45 AMG and so on... (Sorry... Never was and will be a fan of Merc Smiley Smiley)

    The were just looking to find the best performance car of the year. (In their opinion)  A Fiesta is a perfomance car in its own car catagory. The F12 is a new car and also a performance car. The GT3 also... The 458 is an older car, so it would be very strange to see that as a recently introduced car.

    aha, so this is like comparing the best apples to the best pears. ......

    They were indeed comparing the best apples to the best pears. A comparison like this is useless, but it is fun to read. In fact I think every test or comparison is useless. I will never base my purchase on a car magazine's test and I also do not care if the car I like is 0,1 sec faster to 60 or whatever. I buy a car because I like it and it makes me feel good. Car magazine tests don't have any value to me, unless it is a long term review where they do 50000 miles or so with a car. That has value....

    can you please illuminate me with what modern technology the F458 does not have? the only thing that comes to my mind is four wheel steering but only two porsches so far have it. it seems nice but i doubt that it will be a must have on performance cars in the future. other than that?

    What I meant was that the 458 is developed a couple of years ago and doesn't have the benefit of the latest Ferrari bits and pieces, like the F12 does. The car is not as up to date as an F12. Doesn't mean it isn't a great car. Don't get me wrong, but if the 458 was the latest in technologies that Ferrari could offer, they were doing things wrong. It's 5 year old technology. the car was introduced in 2009 or 2010, so developed 2 or more years earlier.

    If hey were comparing rivals of the GT3, then they would have probably gotten a 458. And even then I think the GT3 would have had the preference of most of them, albeit close I guess. The 458 is not as refined, which is not a shame, because the car is already a few years on the market and doesn't have the benefit of the most modern technologies. On the other hand, that is what some people attracts to the car.

     

    have you driven a 458? not as refined as the GT3?????? sorry, but this is utter nonsense. the GT3 is much more raw, which defines exactly its appeal...closer to a race car. but in refinement it can't compete.

    Yes I have driven a 458... Refinement was maybe not the right word to use, I'm sorry for that. What I meant was the refinement inside the cabin. The car feels not a solid as a 991 (I don't say it isn't), or even more the new Audi R8, which is in my opinion even better built than a 991.
    Build quality is for me a very important factor. The interior is the place I spent all my time driving the car. so it has to be almost perfect.    ...Of course, this is a matter of personal preference.

    What the Ferrari does have as an advantage is the overall feeling the cabin gives. It's feels and looks more special than both German cars. This doesn't always mean it is better, but it can make one feel better (also very important IMO)

    You're right about the special feel a Ferrari can give one, but that isn't different for a 911. It just attracts different people. A 911 feels more special to me than a 458. Other people think the other way around. That's a good thing, otherwise everyone was driving a Porsche Smiley

     

    special is not a word that comes to my mind when i hear porsche. but to each his (her) own.

    This is always a matter of taste. For me the 458 is the least attractive Ferrari. to me it looks already kind of outdated, which is strange for Ferrari, because a lot of their designs are timeless and classy. But like you said, each to their own on this point. I do love Ferrari (in fact all Italian brands, as you know) but the 458 is just not my cup of tea I think, although I adore the exhaust note. I would still choose it over a McLaren in a heartbeat if I had to make that choice.

    One thing I can't say anything about is the fact that when a 458 drives by, I will always look at it, regardless if I like it or not. It's a Ferrari and every Ferrari has something special.

    But please... Don't feel offended or whatever.
    I was just giving my own opinion on the subject. Everybody should drive what they like. I will always buy what I like, not what other people like. Different people, different preferences. If we all would like the same cars, the world would be a boring place to live in. Smiley

    Hi Suzy,

    All fair points...but I agree with Peter that a Ferrari is a Ferrari - and as such "more special" then a Porsche. If my memory is correct Ferrari builds roughly 7000 cars per year..you cannot compare this to a company which is flooding our markets - such as Porsche. 991s are stacked everywhere in Porsche centers..at least in Europe and they are struggling to get rid of them..even the panamera is having some difficulties. Anyway, as much as I am Porsche fan - a Ferrari is more special and more exclusively than a Porsche. For me this is unquestionnable.

    In fact, because Porsches are everywhere now (mainly Cayenne, panamera)..Im thinking of going for something more exclusive in the future. I will keep my Porsches...but in the future Im asking myself if I should not go for something more exclusive..Porsche is not exclusive anymore. These days are long gone...


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    Who said that I want to drive something exclusive?? 

    I can personalize the car in a way it gets exclusive. But for me the only important thing is that a car needs to make me feel good. That has nothing to do with price or exclusivity. I don't mind that there are a lot of porsches on the road. I actually like that fact. If I wanted something very exclusive, I wouldn't buy a Porsche... Neither a Ferrari.

    I see equally as much Ferraris as  i see Porsche 911s BTW. They are not that exclusive here in Switzerland.


    --

    Suzy

     


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    SuzyF:

    Who said that I want to drive something exclusive?? 

    I can personalize the car in a way it gets exclusive. But for me the only important thing is that a car needs to make me feel good. That has nothing to do with price or exclusivity. I don't mind that there are a lot of porsches on the road. I actually like that fact. If I wanted something very exclusive, I wouldn't buy a Porsche... Neither a Ferrari.

    I see equally as much Ferraris as  i see Porsche 911s BTW. They are not that exclusive here in Switzerland.


    --

    Suzy

     

     

    OK..as we can see..we all have different priorities..a car needs to make you feel good..I have the same interest..but Im becoming very picky when it comes to spending 200k on a sports car - then for me exclusivity also matters. If every bloke was driving such a car - I wouldnt wanna have it eitherSmiley

    I am also sometimes in CH..and havent seen an equality between Ferrari and Porsche. Anyway, I hope youre happy with your choice and thats already something..SmileySmiley


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    GTlover:
    SuzyF:

    Who said that I want to drive something exclusive?? 

    I can personalize the car in a way it gets exclusive. But for me the only important thing is that a car needs to make me feel good. That has nothing to do with price or exclusivity. I don't mind that there are a lot of porsches on the road. I actually like that fact. If I wanted something very exclusive, I wouldn't buy a Porsche... Neither a Ferrari.

    I see equally as much Ferraris as  i see Porsche 911s BTW. They are not that exclusive here in Switzerland.


    --

    Suzy

     

     

    OK..as we can see..we all have different priorities..a car needs to make you feel good..I have the same interest..but Im becoming very picky when it comes to spending 200k on a sports car - then for me exclusivity also matters. If every bloke was driving such a car - I wouldnt wanna have it eitherSmiley

    I am also sometimes in CH..and havent seen an equality between Ferrari and Porsche. Anyway, I hope youre happy with your choice and thats already something..SmileySmiley

    Hahaha i haven't made my choice yet ;)

    One benefit I have over male petrolheads is that I don't see much females drive cars like that. So the exclusivity is getting better as long as I'm behind the wheel LOLSmiley

    Oh and i become also very picky when spending 200k. But for me that is more about small details like stitching and colors and whatever I can find to whine about Smiley... I know what you are thinking now... Women!!Smiley


    --

    Suzy

     


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    SuzyF:
     

    One benefit I have over male petrolheads is that I don't see much females drive cars like that. So the exclusivity is getting better as long as I'm behind the wheel LOLSmiley

    hahahahahahha tooop!!Smiley


    --

    997TT RS Tuning stage II(sold),2011 Cayenne Turbo


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    SuzyF:
    GTlover:
    SuzyF:

    Who said that I want to drive something exclusive?? 

    I can personalize the car in a way it gets exclusive. But for me the only important thing is that a car needs to make me feel good. That has nothing to do with price or exclusivity. I don't mind that there are a lot of porsches on the road. I actually like that fact. If I wanted something very exclusive, I wouldn't buy a Porsche... Neither a Ferrari.

    I see equally as much Ferraris as  i see Porsche 911s BTW. They are not that exclusive here in Switzerland.


    --

    Suzy

     

     

    OK..as we can see..we all have different priorities..a car needs to make you feel good..I have the same interest..but Im becoming very picky when it comes to spending 200k on a sports car - then for me exclusivity also matters. If every bloke was driving such a car - I wouldnt wanna have it eitherSmiley

    I am also sometimes in CH..and havent seen an equality between Ferrari and Porsche. Anyway, I hope youre happy with your choice and thats already something..SmileySmiley

    Hahaha i haven't made my choice yet ;)

    One benefit I have over male petrolheads is that I don't see much females drive cars like that. So the exclusivity is getting better as long as I'm behind the wheel LOLSmiley

    Oh and i become also very picky when spending 200k. But for me that is more about small details like stitching and colors and whatever I can find to whine about Smiley... I know what you are thinking now... Women!!Smiley

    oh yes..women..Smiley..whereas guys would think about getting more HP and to cruise down the boulevard in such a way that all beautiful blond girls would see them....women would think more about colours, leather stitching, going to the right shops, spend money on shoes etc..I got that right or? Smiley

    youre funny..but Smileyis healthy as the say..Smiley


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    You got that right...  ;)

    A day without laughter is a day wasted 


    --

    Suzy

     


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    My CTTS has had a big roof related ratlle for 2 years. 4 visits later and with the car now out of warranty it is still not fixed. Not nice for a 4.5 year old $145k car.


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)


    SuzyF:

    Yes I have driven a 458... Refinement was maybe not the right word to use, I'm sorry for that. What I meant was the refinement inside the cabin. The car feels not a solid as a 991 (I don't say it isn't), or even more the new Audi R8, which is in my opinion even better built than a 991.
    Build quality is for me a very important factor. The interior is the place I spent all my time driving the car. so it has to be almost perfect.    ...Of course, this is a matter of personal preference.

    What the Ferrari does have as an advantage is the overall feeling the cabin gives. It's feels and looks more special than both German cars. This doesn't always mean it is better, but it can make one feel better (also very important IMO)

     

    Tend to agree with this.  Having been a Fiat owner and 911 owner, the 997 and 991 platforms (and 996 GT3) feel more stout, better built.  The Italian cars feel more delicate.  Like the bolts holding it together weren't quite torqued to spec. 


    --

    991 GT3 incoming, 964 Turbo 3.6, E36 M3 ltw S54 conversion, bunch of other stuff


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    SciFrog:

    My CTTS has had a big roof related ratlle for 2 years. 4 visits later and with the car now out of warranty it is still not fixed. Not nice for a 4.5 year old $145k car.

    Every car that I have ever owned with a sunroof had rattles.  Every car I have owned without a sunroof remained rattle free.  A little fresh air is not worth the aggravation.  


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    CGX car nut:
    SciFrog:

    My CTTS has had a big roof related ratlle for 2 years. 4 visits later and with the car now out of warranty it is still not fixed. Not nice for a 4.5 year old $145k car.

    Every car that I have ever owned with a sunroof had rattles.  Every car I have owned without a sunroof remained rattle free.  A little fresh air is not worth the aggravation.  

    That's one of the reasons why I don't want a sunroof.

    That said... i've put 77000km on my SQ5 with panoramic sunroof in the past year and there has been not one rattle in the car. I wouldn't have chosen the sunroof if I had ordered the car, but it was on the lot, so I had no choice. (let them remove the sunroof was no option. It rains now and then Smiley)


    --

    Suzy

     


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    SuzyF:
    reginos:

    Suzy, with all due respect, an Italian product can never be as well made as a German one. People, who buy Italian from a washing machine to an automobile must be conscious of that. Flair and design yes, but thoroughness and execution is poor!

    I even changed my Bianchi bicycle last week for a not so celebrated German one, and the difference in finish, noise and smoothness is from the earth to the sky.

    10 years ago maybe, but nowadays buildquality has improved a lot, even in Italy. I don't expect them to be as well put together as an audi or porsche, but things like rattles and faulty stitching are not to be expected in such an expensive car. Seriously... I've had Alfa Romeos that were better built than that particular car I drove.

    On a non-serious note: my mom is also Italian bullt and after 53 years all bits and pieces are still on.... Nothing has fallen off yet, so somehow they know how to do it properly!Smiley

    When it comes to women, I am all for Italy Smiley

    German car but Italian woman Smiley


    --

    "Form follows function"


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    SuzyF:

    That said... i've put 77000km on my SQ5 with panoramic sunroof in the past year and there has been not one rattle in the car. I wouldn't have chosen the sunroof if I had ordered the car, but it was on the lot, so I had no choice. (let them remove the sunroof was no option. It rains now and then Smiley)

    77,000km in one year?? That's a lot of driving.....


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    GTlover:

    All fair points...but I agree with Peter that a Ferrari is a Ferrari - and as such "more special" then a Porsche. If my memory is correct Ferrari builds roughly 7000 cars per year..you cannot compare this to a company which is flooding our markets - such as Porsche. 991s are stacked everywhere in Porsche centers..at least in Europe and they are struggling to get rid of them..even the panamera is having some difficulties. Anyway, as much as I am Porsche fan - a Ferrari is more special and more exclusively than a Porsche. For me this is unquestionnable.

    In fact, because Porsches are everywhere now (mainly Cayenne, panamera)..Im thinking of going for something more exclusive in the future. I will keep my Porsches...but in the future Im asking myself if I should not go for something more exclusive..Porsche is not exclusive anymore. These days are long gone...

    People often confuse the notion of "special". For me limited supply and a badge per se don't make something special.

    A Porsche 911is special because of its long history, engineering integrity and the dedication of the manufacturer to hone it and perfect it with every generation. It is a part of european industrial history. And even if there was one in every house its charisma and attraction wouldn't be devalued. The only other car model that comes close in the same terms is the Mercedes S class (which doesn't appeal to me personally).

    In my way of thinking, bothering about "exclusivity" in this sense, is for people who are more  into conspicuous consumption and demonstration of wealth than enjoying their car.

    If Porsche decide to produce 6999 911s next year, would this elevate the car?


    --

    "Form follows function"


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    sidicks:
    SuzyF:

    That said... i've put 77000km on my SQ5 with panoramic sunroof in the past year and there has been not one rattle in the car. I wouldn't have chosen the sunroof if I had ordered the car, but it was on the lot, so I had no choice. (let them remove the sunroof was no option. It rains now and then Smiley)

    77,000km in one year?? That's a lot of driving.....

    Yes it is indeed... Most of it I did in the first half of the year, driving between Switzerland and Belgium a lot. Often two times a week. Now that isn't necessary anymore. I think 40000km a year will be more than enough. ;)


    --

    Suzy

     


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    I am buying the GT3 BECAUSE it will be different from all the cars I have owned. I have been through the gamut of sport cars from Ferrari's to TR7's and the like. The 991GT3 is more of a track car than a DD car. It is designed to be raw but forgiving. It is not designed to be refined. That is why I am buying it. I want to experienced something different from what I have been buying in the past. I like and want diversity.

    I would have bought one sooner had they made PDK available.

     


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    SuzyF:

    I have to admit that the car I drove was a very early model, so maybe that isn't a comparison to the 2013 car. It had a lot of rattles in the cabin, stitching that wasn't done well and the alu transition between black and saddle leather was not straight along the dash and big gaos between those panels left from the steering wheel. Those are things i don't like in such an expensive car, but it could have been an occasional flaw of course. The rattles however were very annoying. (i'm almost allergic to rattles in an interior. One of the reasons I never want a sunroof in a 911). The owner of the car got pretty angry at me when I pointed all those things, but I can't help it that I expect much more of a Ferrari than that car showed me.

    Maybe it's a bit short sighted of me to judge the car, based on one driving experience. But the experience I had was extremely disappointing (or my expectations were too high).

    i didn't know about the 7 year service BTW. Never heard of that. Must be something for UK only?? (I have to admit that I'm not really into Ferrari options and specs)


    --

    Suzy

     

    in 2010 i rented an f458 for a couple of days in dubai. after 10 minutes or so the lever for window up/down came off on the driver side, 10 min later on the passenger side. i was appalled. contrarily my 2013 F458 has so far shown no rattle and or even a slight built-imperfection. whatever happens in the future, rattle or any other problem, i call my vienna ferrari dealer, he picks up the car from my garage, leaves another ferrari there and calls me when things are fixed (already happened when the front lift system broke). then he delivers the car back to my garage and takes away his car. service (including materials like oil etc) is free for seven years, warranty is for three years independent of milage. just compare that to the service you get from the average porsche center.

    my carrera C4S (sold in 2011) had a permanent rattle from the dashboard (came from behind the speedometer), which was fixed reappeared fixed reappeared.....you get the point. another rattle came from the recline mechanism of the passenger side. it was finally fixed when they exchanged the seat. 

    my BMW M5 (which i drove for a year and 20K km) instead was perfect. never a single issue. not even from the sunroof.

    ferraris and lambos are highly priced quality products, they certainly match the german build quality.

    other than that, just as you, i love porsche for certain products: booster, cayman, 911 C, 911 GT3 and the 918 spyder. unfortunately they diluted the brand with panameras and cayennes (which effectively guaranteed porsche's survival and growth). i look forward to the GT3 RS 991.

    cheers, peter


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    nberry:

    I am buying the GT3 BECAUSE it will be different from all the cars I have owned. I have been through the gamut of sport cars from Ferrari's to TR7's and the like. The 991GT3 is more of a track car than a DD car. It is designed to be raw but forgiving. It is not designed to be refined. That is why I am buying it. I want to experienced something different from what I have been buying in the past. I like and want diversity.

    I would have bought one sooner had they made PDK available.

     

    +1


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    nberry:

    This deserves its own thread but I am unable to post a new thread. From CAR magazine Supercar Shootout.

    http://forums.rennlist.com/rennforums/991-gt3/780289-car-magazine-supercar-shootout.html

    wow, test? what test? i dont see any detailed performance numbers. unless there are pages missing from the article, this should be instead called: the 2013 supersubjective giant test...
    All top 3 cars are great especially the gt3, but without objective measurements this test is useless, btw my 12C spider has none of the issues they mention like the slow downshifting and turbo lag, mine has no lag and shifting up or down is lightning fast. throttle response is not ferrari like but again the ferrari is normally aspirated.

    and that pic where all of those morons are leaning on the cars with their jeans, made me cringe.
    the new gt3 deserves a more serious test than this amateurish article, what a waste of time that was.


    --

    2011 CTT

    2013 12C spider

    2013 Audi A5 Cab

     

     


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    moo:
    SuzyF:

    I have to admit that the car I drove was a very early model, so maybe that isn't a comparison to the 2013 car. It had a lot of rattles in the cabin, stitching that wasn't done well and the alu transition between black and saddle leather was not straight along the dash and big gaos between those panels left from the steering wheel. Those are things i don't like in such an expensive car, but it could have been an occasional flaw of course. The rattles however were very annoying. (i'm almost allergic to rattles in an interior. One of the reasons I never want a sunroof in a 911). The owner of the car got pretty angry at me when I pointed all those things, but I can't help it that I expect much more of a Ferrari than that car showed me.

     

    You get the same service with Porsche (in Germany). However, you have to pay for extension of the official 2-year warranty Smiley

    I understand your enthusiasm with the F458. It is great that you don't have any problems with the car. However, all my own Ferraris had massive problems (I am talking about problems that make it impossible to use the car...) plus many, many obvious manufacturing problems. The same applies to all (!) Ferraris of my friends. 

    As stated above by another poster already, a Ferrari is an Italian product. Italians build very emotional and beautiful products (in case of a Ferrari you can hear and see it). However, a product from Italy will never be manufactured with the intend to deliver a perfect product... Never. You can also go and visit their production site in Maranello. If you know about manufacturing standards you immediately notice that the plant is not even managed with that objective.

    The special culture of the Italian you can understand easily if you travel to Italy and just go to a restaurant (to name a different example). The typical Italians do not focus on perfection or precision so much but on pleasure and fun Smiley Honestly, the Italian culture is lovely Smiley


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    moo:
    ferraris and lambos are highly priced quality products, they certainly match the german build quality.

     

    Smiley It would be nice if that was the case... How many miles did you do with your F458, BTW?


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    MKSGR:
    moo:
    ferraris and lambos are highly priced quality products, they certainly match the german build quality.

     

    Smiley It would be nice if that was the case... How many miles did you do with your F458, BTW?

    i am (northern) italian and i disagree. you seem to have a very one-sided view of italy. just go over to the ferrarichat forum and check the problems people report. certainly not more (rather less) than on any porsche forum. while the ferraris before the 430 gen had serious issues, this is a thing of the past. 

    the car that gave me most problems of all the cars i ever had was the carrera C4S 997 gen 2.

    i have done 6k km with the f458.

    peter


     
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