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    Re: need imput on exhaust and power upgrade

    We recently had the chance to drive a factory 997 Turbo.2 PDK in comparison to two tuned first gen 997 Turbo (RUF and Techart, both with power claims around 550 to 570 hp) and one tuned second gen 997 Turbo (tuner asked me not to mention his name, guess why) which claimed to have 580 hp.

    From 0-100 kph, the factory Turbo was 0.1-0.2 seconds faster than the tuned first gen Turbos. From 0-200 kph, the factory Turbo achieved the same time as the tuned cars, in one case it was even 0.2 seconds faster.

    The tuned second gen Turbo was 0.1 second faster than the stock Turbo from 0-100 kph and 0.2 seconds slower from 0-200 kph. Car was equipped with wider rear tires and some sort of an aero kit with a larger wing in the rear, this is actually what the tuner claims has made this car slower.

    Bottom line is: There was no real performance gain here, taking in consideration the hp gain claims/numbers.

    Btw: All cars were subject to TÜV certification, thus completely street legal, incl. exhaust emissions.

    Comparing the new Turbo S with tuned 997 Turbo, things look even worse. So far, I don't know any tuned 997 Turbo to accelerate faster from 0-100 kph. 0-200 kph times are usually in the 10.3-10.6 seconds range for tuned 997 Turbo (570-620 hp) but the factory Turbo S usually does 0-200 kph in 10.0 seconds flat. 

    Do you see a pattern here ? 

    Of course tuners can change boost pressure to certain rev/speed levels but I doubt that this will be good for the car's reliability and since a 997 Turbo engine, especially first gen, costs a fortune...

    This was really my last post in this thread, I promise. 


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 997 Carrera GTS Cabriolet PDK, BMW X5M, BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S Countryman All4


    Re: need imput on exhaust and power upgrade

    RC, obviously I wrote something that is driving you nuts and keep drawing you back to this thread. Smiley I always enjoy your participation but again must disagree with many things you've said here.

    Alright, the only pattern I see here is that:
    1. You are comparing  PDK Turbo to manual Turbo of a different generation, and worse, compare in the 0-100 range where PDK has huge advantage. This is a major faux pas
    2. Using an anecdotal report of a slow RUF car, a slow Techart car, and a third slow unknown car, to refute overwhelming PBox proven results otherwise: a tuned car is faster. This is the law of physics you are fighting against. Turbo engines with more boost,  less back pressure, better intercooler, more aggressive timing, higher octane gas, etc., have more horsepower; cars with more horsepower go faster. Voila! What is so difficult to grasp here? Smiley
    PDK has huge advantage because of its inherently short shift time, and more importantly and critically for turbo engines, it maintains boost during shift (Everyone looks at your boost gauge next time you shift your manual turbo.). This advantage is particularly noticeable in the 0-1 and 1-2 shifts and explains the explosive 0-60 times of these cars.  If you are to compare engine tunes, you have to hold gear box variable constant. This is the elegance of 60-130 testing: it nearly eliminates the gear box, and human error, variables of standing start.

    I see a second pattern, from the list below, of tuned PDK's beating stock PDK. That if I own a PDK 997.2 Turbo, I would give these guys SpunkyQ8, Shotcaller and k-ddsl a call!!
    http://www.6speedonline.com/forums/996-turbo-gt2/55163-6speedonlines-official-60-130-1-4-mile-standing-mile-list.html
    7.24 - k-ddsl / AWD / 997.2TT PDK******************************
    7.25 - Colorinc / AWD / 1-shift
    7.26 - RS38 / GT2 / 0-shifts
    7.33 - Lil Powell / 997TT AWD / 1-shift
    7.50 - Szpet / AWD / 1-shift
    7.59 - SPI / AWD / 1-shift
    7.74 - Shotcaller / 997.2TT PDK**************************
    7.77 - FlyingGuy / AWD / 1-shift
    7.80 - SpunkyQ8 / 997.2TT PDK**********************
    7.83 - Torresmd / AWD / 1-shift
    7.84 - 9Eleven / GT2 / 1-shift
    7.89 - Pierre996TT / AWD / 0-shifts
    7.92 - TXGold / RWD / 1-shift (stock K16's)
    8.17 - Shotcaller / 997 GT2 / 2-shifts (stock)
    8.25 - Adam Bowles / 1-shift
    8.28 - Keithta / Panamera TT w/ ECU flash
    8.42 - bob'5 / AWD / 1-shift / (stock K16's)
    8.45 - TwinTurboM3 / 997TT AWD TIP
    8.76 - Scotty slc / AWD / 1-shift
    8.86 - Haudimal / 997TT AWD TIP
    8.79 - SpunkyQ8 / 997.2TT PDK (stock)*****************************
     

     


    --
     

    Regards,
    Can
    997 Turbo + Bilstein Damptronic "Stage 2" ( Review ) + GIAC ECU Custom Tune ( Fast as a torpedo & reversible to stock - Review ) + Cargraphic Exhaust ( Oh heavenly noise! )


    Re: need imput on exhaust and power upgrade

    TB993tt:

    The only test in the UK of an EVOMS conversion which was actually used in EVOs promo material, see the dyno sheet below which was done after tuning at their UK agent with a claimed 735hp/1020NM, all fully endorsed/confirmed by EVO to the extent where they used the car as a marketing mule.


     

    For others reading this, not Toby because he of course already knows: Next time you see a magazine comparing tuned cars, consider throwing the mag to the trash can. Toby should do the same to the image files of this magazine test. Why?

    1. Tuners are not always honest about what's in their cars - sadly this is fact. Between intercoolers, exhaust, and turbine, etc., there are several components that could be altered without magazine knowing. This leads to the second problem:
    2. Silly comparison like this falsely gives readers the assumption that the cars are tuned "equally." This is an improbable assumption. Equally with respect to what? Cost or components? For example, if cost is a consideration, you could immediately eliminate most European tuners, starting with RUF, and then RS Tuning, with its requirement for on site tuning for higher power app.
    3. The only conclusion from this magazine article is EVOMS let its car be tested a continent away (Tuned in England? You've got to be kidding me to use this as example.) against a more extensively tuned car. Done in Arizona and knowing what is going to be tested? I don't think so.

    IMHO, it is a serious mistake to hang on to one test, one moment in time, as platform for debate on a topic as complicated as ECU tuning. There are simply way too many variables. Any doubt about EVOMS's ability to make the car fast, please see the evidence-based result below (no speculation): 997 Turbo CHAMPION, trap speed 149.1. Smiley Holy macaroni!
    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
    http://www.6speedonline.com/forums/996-turbo-gt2/55163-6speedonlines-official-60-130-1-4-mile-standing-mile-list.html
    Only 1/4 mile times from timeslips and/or video (preferably both) will be accepted for this list. No GPS based, datalogger 1/4 mile times will be accepted.
    1/4 mile E.T.'s/Trap Speeds:
    996/997/CGT:
    In order of Trap Speed:
    11.00 @ 151.4 - S-351
    09.67 @ 149.8 – EVOMS / RWD
    10.30 @ 149.3 - Powell / RWD
    09.90 @ 149.1 - EVOMS / 997TT AWD***************************************
    09.90 @ 148.6 - Bahrain 996TT / 997TT AWD TIP
    10.83 @ 148.0 - Divexxtreme / RWD
    10.58 @ 146.6 - Chris Green / RWD
    09.79 @ 146.4 - dk996tt / 997TT AWD
    09.91 @ 145.6 - Markski / RWD
    10.91 @ 144.0 - Art4iza / RWD
    10.82 @ 143.1 - AtomicZ / GT2
    10.98 @ 141.5 - evoviiiyou / 997TT AWD
    10.72 @ 141.4 - Divexxtreme / GT2
    10.22 @ 141.0 - uaeturbo / 997TT AWD TIP
    10.50 @ 140.6 - Joetwint / AWD
    11.15 @ 139.5 - KeithTA / 997TT AWD
    10.43 @ 139.1 - Palette / RWD
    10.48 @ 138.4 - uaeturbo / 997TT AWD TIP
     

    Regards,
    Can
    997 Turbo + Bilstein Damptronic "Stage 2" ( Review ) + GIAC ECU Custom Tune ( Fast as a torpedo & reversible to stock - Review ) + Cargraphic Exhaust ( Oh heavenly noise! )


    Re: need imput on exhaust and power upgrade

    After 2 years of ownership was there a difference is power after the EVOMS stage 2? HELL YES! It's not even a question. Listening to someone say there's no/little difference sounds the same to me if someone said my car is white not black...   

    Don't care/never interested in what it would say on a dyno, not interested in a #.  On the road my car charges like never before & the difference from stock w/ exhaust is STILL noticeable one year later.  Maybe EVOMS tune is just that good but imo if you went to stage 2 after owning your car w/ just exhaust & didn't notice a SIGNIFICANT difference in power (are there many people that feel that way?) then I would HIGHLY RECOMMEND go to the EVOMS tune.

    My dealer gave me the option of driving the car w/ tune & if I didn't like it to bring it back, he would switch back to stock & refund my money, told me to call him when I got home. I called him from home literally laughing, still had ear to ear grin.... BELIEVE ME if I didn't think there was a substantial difference in the cars power, I would have no problem asking for my money back ...It's actually inexpensive for what it's done for the car... 

    RC has always been against mods so he has a personal reason for his argument (without actually having the experience of owning a stock w/ exhaust Turbo for a couple years then doing a tune) . IMO he's missed out big time, hopefully not too many people have followed suit because of it ... But then again -   RC is probably still trying to convince people that the spy shots of the next 911 that was posted a couple yrs back is the "next front engined Porsche" w/ a fake engine in the rear.  

    Smiley

    But in all seriousness - I feel extremely bad for anyone that has believed what RC is saying & decided not to go w/ a similar stage 2 like the EVOMS in my car. 580/560/600, whatever, doesn't matter to me, bottom line the car IS much quicker.

     
    --

    08 PORSCHE Turbo Cabriolet - 06 Ferrari F430 - 04 Durango HEMI - 04 Harley Davidson Screamin Eagle - 93 Harley Davidson Nostalgia


    Re: need imput on exhaust and power upgrade

    Can, can't argue with what you say about mags and testing however I spoke a few times to the guy who owned the EVO tuned car tested and he really believed he had all the hp and torque which were shown on his Mustang dyno sheet (and used by EVO for marketing) and he thought his car was very fast which it was, about 620hp fast not the 730 displayed on the mustang.

    I am really a bit over all this since there are now a few of us who meet often and do testing and data logging at an airfield and in this environment there is no BS or nowhere to hide..... our Durametrics tell the full story logging MAF, timing, lambdas, IATs, boost, load, all the way up to 320kph, you can learn a lot and dodgy tunes are totally exposed, very few tuners actually do this hence dodgy tunes and not necessarily US tuners but well known Euro ones also.

    One of our participants has opened a tuning/servicing shop and sells US proto packages and he has had to amend (downwards - a lot) some of his advertised hp claims following this sort of testing, but as we know it doesn't really matter because most people only want to go rapidly to 130mph so this sort of tuning thrives and Porsche has made the electronic safegards so bullet proof that the engines are virtually indestructible Smiley


    --


     

     

    2009 997 GT2


    Re: need imput on exhaust and power upgrade

    TB993tt:

    1. Can, can't argue with what you say about mags and testing however I spoke a few times to the guy who owned the EVO tuned car tested and he really believed he had all the hp and torque which were shown on his Mustang dyno sheet (and used by EVO for marketing) and he thought his car was very fast which it was, about 620hp fast not the 730 displayed on the mustang.

    2. I am really a bit over all this since there are now a few of us who meet often and do testing and data logging at an airfield and in this environment there is no BS or nowhere to hide..... our Durametrics tell the full story logging MAF, timing, lambdas, IATs, boost, load, all the way up to 320kph, you can learn a lot and dodgy tunes are totally exposed, very few tuners actually do this hence dodgy tunes and not necessarily US tuners but well known Euro ones also.

    3. One of our participants has opened a tuning/servicing shop and sells US proto packages and he has had to amend (downwards - a lot) some of his advertised hp claims following this sort of testing, but as we know it doesn't really matter because most people only want to go rapidly to 130mph so this sort of tuning thrives and Porsche has made the electronic safegards so bullet proof that the engines are virtually indestructible Smiley


    1. I know you knew. Anyway, to judge Schmirler's work, I don't foolishly (like someone here) quote the video of that bad RS Tuning GT2 as evidence. That is a "bastard" car, one that Schmirler has not fine tuned and seemingly has not signed off on. At this exalted level of tuning (far above my humble Turbo), one has to judge the tuner by his best work; one that he has custom tuned with dyno, has data logged to his satisfaction, and has signed off on. Your car is an example.

    Similarly, to judge EVOMS work, fairness dictates that one has to extend the same "privilege" to EVOMS. The real EVOMS car to me would be one that has been fine tuned on multiple dyno sessions in Arizona, and has been road data-logged extensively by them on their playground (exactly what you are doing with your car, albeit engine dyno), NOT some bastard car tuned in England of the past. EVOMS has tuned a 997 Turbo that traps the quarter mile at 149 Smiley; nothing in the world is certain, but I will walk on my head if the real EVOMS doesn't annihilate the England EVOMS car.

    This owner brings a knife to the gun fight, that's the only conclusion. The other issue, exaggererated claims, sure is not cool, particularly if so exaggerated. But... which car company, which tuner, has NEVER been guilty?
    For whatever reason, EVOMS's claims and their dyno curves get under your skin. To me, they are extremely boring topic and not worth repeating. Judge them by road test results - you know, and I know that is the bottom line in this imperfect world. Pretty dyno charts without any standardization whatsoever are for "rookies" - not someone with your level of experience in tuning.


    --
     

    Regards,
    Can
    997 Turbo + Bilstein Damptronic "Stage 2" ( Review ) + GIAC ECU Custom Tune ( Fast as a torpedo & reversible to stock - Review ) + Cargraphic Exhaust ( Oh heavenly noise! )


    Re: need imput on exhaust and power upgrade

    RC:

    Bottom line is: There was no real performance gain here, taking in consideration the hp gain claims/numbers.

    Not sure if people consider Ruf "reputable" anymore, in light of many concerning rumors...but for those who are fans:

    RUF Automobile GmbH proudly announces a new upgrade for both the Porsche 997 Turbo and the 997 Turbo S with DFI.

    The standard 500 hp of the Turbo and the 530 hp of the Turbo S have been increased through modified ECU; sport air filters; sport catalytic converters; a new exhaust system with double end pipes to a total of 620 hp. The Torque increases to an astonishing 820 Nm @ 3,000 to 3,500 rpm. This enables a sprint of 0 – 100 km/h in just 2.9 seconds, 0 – 200 km/h in 9.1 seconds and a top speed of 202 mph (326 km/h). The upgrade is available for both the manual and the PDK transmissions.

     

    Leistungsdiagramm 997 Turbo 620 PS.pdf


    Re: need imput on exhaust and power upgrade


    1. I know you knew. Anyway, to judge Schmirler's work, I don't foolishly (like someone here) quote the video of that bad RS Tuning GT2 as evidence. That is a "bastard" car, one that Schmirler has not fine tuned and seemingly has not signed off on. At this exalted level of tuning (far above my humble Turbo), one has to judge the tuner by his best work; one that he has custom tuned with dyno, has data logged to his satisfaction, and has signed off on. Your car is an example.

    Similarly, to judge EVOMS work, fairness dictates that one has to extend the same "privilege" to EVOMS. The real EVOMS car to me would be one that has been fine tuned on multiple dyno sessions in Arizona, and has been road data-logged extensively by them on their playground (exactly what you are doing with your car, albeit engine dyno), NOT some bastard car tuned in England of the past. EVOMS has tuned a 997 Turbo that traps the quarter mile at 149 Smiley; nothing in the world is certain, but I will walk on my head if the real EVOMS doesn't annihilate the England EVOMS car.

    This owner brings a knife to the gun fight, that's the only conclusion. The other issue, exaggererated claims, sure is not cool, particularly if so exaggerated. But... which car company, which tuner, has NEVER been guilty?
    For whatever reason, EVOMS's claims and their dyno curves get under your skin. To me, they are extremely boring topic and not worth repeating. Judge them by road test results - you know, and I know that is the bottom line in this imperfect world. Pretty dyno charts without any standardization whatsoever are for "rookies" - not someone with your level of experience in tuning.

     

    I don't agree that one can compare a 635hp kit fitted in Sweden, (never even checked on a dyno or with acceleration/other data numbers) with the EVOMS car I describe above..... if you look on EVOMS website they devote quite a lot of space to this very car which was independently tested and feature the Mustang dyno chart from their UK partner as evidence that their kits are "doing the business" internationally and guess what appears on the UK tuner's front page ?

    http://www.regal-shop.co.uk/porsche/

    This car was tuned across the Atlantic by EVO and dyno tested and signed off and is a fast car as the figures show..... it is about 620hp fast, up to 150mph about the same as the Cargraphic car tested on the same day. 

    This car has "surging" acceleration and according to the owner fights for traction in the lower gears, it IS a fast car but everybody thinks they have 700hp and quite simply they don't or if they do it is long gone over 130mph !

    Of course EVO can and do  produce fast cars, even cars which are fast in a mile with huge boost but the only evidence which I have been able to get close to leads me to think that the majority of their 700+hp kits out there are about 620hp in reality which I still think is pretty damn fast and will satisfy most owners....

    One give away line for me is in their blurb for their 775hp upgrade where they enthuse (paraphrased) "for owners who are used to their 700hp and it doesn't feel that fast anymore"

    Trust me no-one would ever get "used" to a 700hp/900NM VTG Porsche turbo, this is the most ridiculous thing I've ever read but fits in with my thoughts on the subject Smiley

     


    --


     

     

    2009 997 GT2


    Re: need imput on exhaust and power upgrade

    ^^^^ Toby you always seem so excited about EVOMS for whatever reason, but really, as a juror - a very difficult one - who thinks highly of both RS Tuning and EVOMS, all I see is a tuner making exaggerated claims, and two bastard cars.Smiley


    --
     

    Regards,
    Can
    997 Turbo + Bilstein Damptronic "Stage 2" ( Review ) + GIAC ECU Custom Tune ( Fast as a torpedo & reversible to stock - Review ) + Cargraphic Exhaust ( Oh heavenly noise! )


    Re: need imput on exhaust and power upgrade

    TB993tt:

    Can, can't argue with what you say about mags and testing however I spoke a few times to the guy who owned the EVO tuned car tested and he really believed he had all the hp and torque which were shown on his Mustang dyno sheet (and used by EVO for marketing) and he thought his car was very fast which it was, about 620hp fast not the 730 displayed on the mustang.

    2. I am really a bit over all this since there are now a few of us who meet often and do testing and data logging at an airfield and in this environment there is no BS or nowhere to hide..... our Durametrics tell the full story logging MAF, timing, lambdas, IATs, boost, load, all the way up to 320kph, you can learn a lot and dodgy tunes are totally exposed, very few tuners actually do this hence dodgy tunes and not necessarily US tuners but well known Euro ones also.

    3. One of our participants has opened a tuning/servicing shop and sells US proto packages and he has had to amend (downwards - a lot) some of his advertised hp claims following this sort of testing, but as we know it doesn't really matter because most people only want to go rapidly to 130mph so this sort of tuning thrives and Porsche has made the electronic safegards so bullet proof that the engines are virtually indestructible Smiley


    2. Have you ever had a situation where Schmirler signed off with engine dyno, and then the data logging on actual road testing shows timing pull, rising IAT, or hesitation, or whatever, that you don't like? I am curious how he goes about correcting this situation? Does he alter the program without another dyno? In other words, surely road testing doesn't always "match" dyno, whether chassis or engine?

    3. Proto dealer? Your "friend" is a smart man.  We could argue forever about who is the "best" tuner but for me, Protomotive is a top top choice. I think Protomotive has now both 997 Turbo, *and* GT2 champion, at least when it comes to 60-130 (I know, an imperfect, but elegant and relevant test nevertheless.). The GT2 car by gtovan drive has also been at Texas Mile and went past 200 mph a few times with his GT2. (I can't believe the speed these  guys take their cars to! Smiley One blown tire away from THE END.)
    6SpeedonlinePerformanceList
    60 -130 mph (96.5-209.2 kph):
    3.96 - KPG / RWD / 0-shifts
    4.14 - Keithta / 997TT AWD / 1-shift*****************************************
    4.25 - dk996tt / 997TT AWD / 1-shift (stock internals)
    4.25 - art4iza / RWD / 0-shifts
    4.43 - edelectra / 997TT AWD / 1-shift (stock internals)
    4.62 - Markski / RWD / 2-shifts
    4.63 - Whiteknight / 997TT AWD TIP
    4.67 - Divexxtreme / RWD 996TT / 2-shifts
    4.81 - Joetwint / RWD / 2-shifts
    4.85 - topgun / AWD / 2-shifts
    4.89 - Powell / AWD / 1-shift (stock internals)
    4.95 - Divexxtreme / GT2 / 2-shifts
    4.97 - Besiktas / 997TT AWD TIP (stock internals)
    5.18 - Chris Green / RWD / 1-shift (stock internals)
    5.23 - WhiteKnight / 997TT AWD TIP (stock internals)
    5.44 - gtovan / 997 GT2 / 1-shift (stock internals)******************************************
     


    --
     

    Regards,
    Can
    997 Turbo + Bilstein Damptronic "Stage 2" ( Review ) + GIAC ECU Custom Tune ( Fast as a torpedo & reversible to stock - Review ) + Cargraphic Exhaust ( Oh heavenly noise! )


    Re: need imput on exhaust and power upgrade

     

    cannga:  The GT2 car by gtovan drive has also been at Texas Mile and went past 200 mph a few times with his GT2. (I can't believe the speed these  guys take their cars to! Smiley One blown tire away from THE END.)

     

     

     

    Can, I lose interest when you start jibing me for being "excited" with EVOMS etc when in reality I just like acceleration and speed and am fascinated with how the power to do it is achieved and everything that entails.....

    When you posted what you did above I realize that we really are on different agendas and its probably pointless us debating when you have no experience (or desire to know) what it means on the road Smiley

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4h-673XWbBc

     


    --


     

     

    3.9  GT2 2011 make over


    Re: need imput on exhaust and power upgrade

     happy with your car back, any major problems or all as you expected.

    Great video

     

    Dario


    Re: need imput on exhaust and power upgrade

    Toby, lost interest, or lost the argument? My lack of experience doesn't alter the logic of my reasoning.

    Despite of your "experience," you (and of course me) are but an amateur when it comes to the ACTUAL work of tuning; and  "half a knowledge"  is a dangerous thing. Just think of what you do as a profession - whatever you do - and think of some amateur coming in with some test instrument trying to "prove" the worth of your work. The amateur knows A, B, and C, but he doesn't know D, and E, and F, G, H, I, J, K, L, M, N, and you will be calling the police on him, right?

    The points are simple: 
    1. If you want to criticize an EVOMS car, bring your road test instrument to Arizona and allow them a best shot - just like what you've allowed your car. Don't test a bastard car.
    2. One could go on and on about data logging this, engine dyno'ing that, but at the end of the day, a road test, and a road test only, is what matters. . In a perfect world, track time and professional evaluations, in an imperfect world: 6SpeedonlinePerformanceList .
    3. BTW, the question about what to do if your data logging contradicts the engine dyno is purely rhetorical. I asked to illustrate just how complicated this issue is. Spending a hefty amount of money "trying" to duplicate racing teams' and PAG's tuning? Admirable, but possibly futile, and perhaps wasteful (How much has been spent trying to make this RS Tuning GT2 work?). A GT2 RS would have been a much better choice IMHO.


     


    --

    Regards,
    Can
    997 Turbo + Bilstein Damptronic "Stage 2" ( Review ) + GIAC ECU Custom Tune ( Fast as a torpedo & reversible to stock - Review ) + Cargraphic Exhaust ( Oh heavenly noise! )


    Re: need imput on exhaust and power upgrade

    cannga:

    Toby, lost interest, or lost the argument? My lack of experience doesn't alter the logic of my reasoning.

    Despite of your "experience," you (and of course me) are but an amateur when it comes to the ACTUAL work of tuning; and  "half a knowledge"  is a dangerous thing. Just think of what you do as a profession - whatever you do - and think of some amateur coming in with some test instrument trying to "prove" the worth of your work. The amateur knows A, B, and C, but he doesn't know D, and E, and F, G, H, I, J, K, L, M, N, and you will be calling the police on him, right?

    The points are simple: 
    1. If you want to criticize an EVOMS car, bring your road test instrument to Arizona and allow them a best shot - just like what you've allowed your car. Don't test a bastard car.
    2. One could go on and on about data logging this, engine dyno'ing that, but at the end of the day, a road test, and a road test only, is what matters. . In a perfect world, track time and professional evaluations, in an imperfect world: 6SpeedonlinePerformanceList .
    3. BTW, the question about what to do if your data logging contradicts the engine dyno is purely rhetorical. I asked to illustrate just how complicated this issue is. Spending a hefty amount of money "trying" to duplicate racing teams' and PAG's tuning? Admirable, but possibly futile, and perhaps wasteful (How much has been spent trying to make this RS Tuning GT2 work?). A GT2 RS would have been a much better choice IMHO.

    I don't think you realize or understand just how much testing I and others do, it is a hobby for me and it is business for other friends.... in fact today we arranged another test session in a few weeks to evaluate a US tuner's wares........ what we are doing is way more than the majority of the 6Bling favourite tuners (EVO, Champion, TPC, GMG etc) do for turbo cars, we run them hard time and time again to 200+mph and pick through the data. This is not 60-130 this is a proper full load test and it is harsh on badly tuned stuff. Yesterday (see above vid) we had a few blown engines and turbos, it is par for the course and despite you saying you and I are amateurs I think I have done more real world high load road testing and sifted through more data  than some "tuners" could dream about. I think you are over rating the majority of "tuners" .....so many of them are on a wing and a prayer but are saved from themselves by the safety features Porsche build into the software of these modern Porsches......

    Your comments about buying a GT2RS again show our differences, I know the GT2RS inside out and moreover the differences between the cooking GT2 and the RS. I had a deposit down and had a build slot but on hard evaluation the RS is not what I wanted, the engine is really nothing special and (apart from some of the lightweight body tricky bits) there is nothing in the spec  which I needed. My car weighs within 25kg of a normally specced RS and I need and have rear seatbelts (not possible on the RS since it doesn't have the mounting reinforcement) I need the roof rack points (again not on the RS) and I really do not like the centre lock wheels.... My car is superior to a GT2RS in virtually every way and certainly cost a lot more !

     

    Here is a little pic for you of mine lined up with my pal's GT2RS...... my offsets make his look pretty lame Smiley

    Oh and he has a 660hp kit on it which is not quite the 700hp/980NM which EVOMS claim for theirs but it is plenty fast for about 3 runs and then it heat soaks badly and power is back near stock...... 60-130 oh yes it will get into your top trumps list but this is not proper Porsche tuning IMHO ..... don't even get me started on the EVOMS claims Smiley


    --


     

     

    3.9  GT2 2011 make over


    Re: need imput on exhaust and power upgrade

    1. When you and your friends were out there, did anyone took out the ECU and looked at the programming codes and analyzed the mappings?  ***Testing*** the cars does NOT qualify anyone as being anything remotely close to being a professional tuner. The effort is admirable, but I still feel half-knowledge not appropriately recognized is much more dangerous than no knowledge at all. Testing the car and data logging it, make the person an observer, a tester, no more, no less.
    Nevertheless, we are straying from the core of this discussion: "Go West, young man!" (Arizona.) Until you've proven that you've given every other tuner the same opportunity as you've given your car, the test is futile. You are testing your best effort against "orphans."

    2. >>>>>My car is superior to a GT2RS in virtually every way and certainly cost a lot more !

    Well..... but if you feel so, that's great. My opinion remains same: GT2 RS hands down until I have reasonable evidence that your car beats it at the track, and "superior in virtually every way." The current tuning of your car, while admirable, is rudimentary compared to what Porsche does to make the GT2 RS.
    The more I think about it, the more I am suspecting RS Tuning's ability to tune a consumer car for higher power under reasonable budget. Schmirler *is* the real thing, a champion tuner for sure, and his skills are without doubt, but perhaps only for all-out super budget racing teams. With a limited budget and limited testing ability, his method may not be the best? Are multiple engine dyno's a requirement for higher power app? Smiley Look at the 2 examples we have: your car, which costs $$$$, and the other one, which got beat by a Turbo under suspicious circumstances. Hardly the stuffs of legends.

     


    --

    Regards,
    Can
    997 Turbo + Bilstein Damptronic "Stage 2" ( Review ) + GIAC ECU Custom Tune ( Fast as a torpedo & reversible to stock - Review ) + Cargraphic Exhaust ( Oh heavenly noise! )


    Re: need imput on exhaust and power upgrade

    cannga: The current tuning of your car, while admirable, is rudimentary compared to what Porsche does to make the GT2 RS.

     

     

    slurp the kool aid my friend  Smiley


    --


     

     

    3.9  GT2 2011 make over


    Re: need imput on exhaust and power upgrade

    Dario:

     happy with your car back, any major problems or all as you expected.

    Great video

     

    Dario

    Hey Dario

    I missed your post, getting sidetracked with Cann winding me up Smiley

    I had one minor problem which turned out major in terms of cost..... I had an intermittent starting problem with a fault code "flywheel sensor fault" showing so after engine back out in the UK and all flywheel related stuff checked and new sensor and ECU back to Germany for checking the car seemed to start OK but then one day it just failed to start at all....... bottom line I had it low loaded back to Germany on a trailer, it turned out to be a fault in the ECU itself (nothing to do with the programming) so it has a brand new ECU and everything is perfect........

    The IATs are very high at very high speeds ~300+kph and the practical limit for power on a VTG engine (at 20c ambient) appears to be about 700hp when loaded over 300kph...... the VTG engine is the most amazing thing with over 900NM from 3500 to 5500 rpm, I installed a longer 6th gear and the acceleration in 6th has not reduced one bit (this is not a guess, I have back to back tested it at the same venue up to 310kph ;) ) thanks to this spread of torque, it is epic Smiley


    --


     

     

    3.9  GT2 2011 make over


    Re: need imput on exhaust and power upgrade

    Congratulation on your car rs- tuning at is best what Turbos are you runing now. By the way did you know that the gt2 rs is running the same Turbos as the gt2..

    Re: need imput on exhaust and power upgrade

    TB993tt:

    I know the GT2RS inside out and moreover the differences between the cooking GT2 and the RS. I had a deposit down and had a build slot but on hard evaluation the RS is not what I wanted, the engine is really nothing special and (apart from some of the lightweight body tricky bits) there is nothing in the spec  which I needed. My car weighs within 25kg of a normally specced RS and I need and have rear seatbelts (not possible on the RS since it doesn't have the mounting reinforcement) I need the roof rack points (again not on the RS) and I really do not like the centre lock wheels.... My car is superior to a GT2RS in virtually every way and certainly cost a lot more !


    Care to share a few more details? Apart from the engine modification, I must have missed the explanation on the chassis that you performed on your car. I do find the GT2 RS to be a magnificent car right from the factory but would think twice if I´d be in your position as well.

    Apart from bushings, wider front track and improved suspension setting which advances has Porsche made from your point of view?

     


    Re: need imput on exhaust and power upgrade

    cannga:

    GT2 RS hands down until I have reasonable evidence that your car beats it at the track, and "superior in virtually every way." The current tuning of your car, while admirable, is rudimentary compared to what Porsche does to make the GT2 RS.
    The more I think about it, the more I am suspecting RS Tuning's ability to tune a consumer car for higher power under reasonable budget. Schmirler *is* the real thing, a champion tuner for sure, and his skills are without doubt, but perhaps only for all-out super budget racing teams. With a limited budget and limited testing ability, his method may not be the best?


    Cannga,

    I am starting to miss the core topic of this thread. I agree with you that it is hard to evaluate that topic without first-hand information and access to vital test numbers both of the cars´ performance and their engine condition.

    Without knowing Toby personally he does put a lot of effort into the subject and even considers the above parameters which help differentiate between a sloppy ECU modification and a detailed improvement of an engine´s performance. Apart from that, I haven´t heard from many people outside the business that puts that much effort into the subject. I have so far refrained of commenting on this subject but have to say that I am in agreement with everything he has written so far. There are parameters that influence the general character of the engine (throttle response, torque curve) as well as parameters that indicate the stress on essential components which, configured not properly, could lead to premature failure of the item or parameters that ensure the delivery of claimed performance numbers under a variety of circumstances (temperature, fuel quality).

    For the sake of objective comparisons, two members above have stated their personal experience with different tunes as well as stock cars, whereas both Gregg and you have stated personal subjective views and the referral to magazine numbers. Please don´t get me wrong, I don´t mean this in any disrespectful way but question the approach to this somewhat complex and potentially exhaustive subject. This is, to me, not a subject about American or European tuners but more so about quick and dirty adjustments which are somewhat simple to do on a turbocharged engine against the detailed and careful approach some tuners chose - the difference is not in the superficial numbers.


    Re: need imput on exhaust and power upgrade

    Dario:
    Congratulation on your car rs- tuning at is best what Turbos are you runing now. By the way did you know that the gt2 rs is running the same Turbos as the gt2..

    This is what I hear also...... RS's first attempt were some bigger compressor units they have but whilst they gave a good headline power number and decent torque curve, once he tested it on the road the IATs were too high so he used the biggest VTGs they have which were "prototypes" and had been used on a test engine but deemed a bit "lairy" (my word not theirs) anyway they could reduce the boost by 0.1 bar to give lower IATs and it has more torque. The downside being they take longer to spool, the first ones had 900NM BY 3140RPM,  the new ones only have 775NM by 3140rpm but are over 900 by 3500rpm.......

    They are quite "lairy" on the road, when the boost comes in at 2600rpm there is quite a noise show going on, you can hear the air (sounds sort of like what I imagine cavitation sounds like Smiley) an uneven whooshing and then a very deep gutteral growl quite unlike any other turbo spool up - I must try and get a video with sound track to share !


    --


     

     

    3.9  GT2 2011 make over


    Re: need imput on exhaust and power upgrade

    Ferdie:

    Care to share a few more details? Apart from the engine modification, I must have missed the explanation on the chassis that you performed on your car. I do find the GT2 RS to be a magnificent car right from the factory but would think twice if I´d be in your position as well.

    Apart from bushings, wider front track and improved suspension setting which advances has Porsche made from your point of view?

     

    You ask a good question and my answer to Cann about my car being superior to a GT2 RS was really from an engine and practicality point of view since I am uncertain of the specifics of the chassis of the GT2RS.

    I have studiously followed all the details since the RS was released including the seeming contradictions when Preuninger stated the car was "rose jointed" to the actual facts that it is not fully rose jointed.....

    I don't doubt that the actual matching of suspension componentry and chassis set up is superior on a GT2RS than on mine since Porsche had engineers concentrating hard in this area, however....... I have some nice pieces on mine, Bilstein B16 Damptronics, Cup rear lower arms, solid dog bones, rear toe control arms and monball ends on the front stock wishbones and of course the wider front track...

    Receiving up the Cup arms - like Christmas Smiley

    Parts in place

     

    I consulted widely to get a compromise of enough suppleness so I can drive this car everyday on normal UK roads yet blast up to 355kph with relative safety and have great steering feel, I am happy that these objectives have been hit.....

    I feel that some of the actual suspension components used in the RS are a little "lame" (eg the actual shocks.... if money was no object surely they would have used something more akin to the Bilstein B16 which apparently was developed by the Bilstein engineers who worked on the original set up - don't know if this is true of marketing spin Smiley) and to me indicate the engineers were on a tight budget

    The engine has so few differences to the normal GT2 which obviously reveals what a stout unit the original is but essentially they have cranked up the boost and used better intercoolers to great effect......

    In contrast apart from all the little racing tricks proprietry to RS Tuning like head work and cams, my engine also uses bespoke Carrillos and special pistons..... the Carrillos are longer than stock length and the pistons are shorter to give less drag, for the first time on this genre of road engine he has given me a 7400rpm rev limit !...... Porsche engineers can only dream of being able to play with stuff like this

    Rods

    Pistons


    --


     

     

    3.9  GT2 2011 make over


    Re: need imput on exhaust and power upgrade

    Nice details Toby questions how many miles or km you had on your car before modifing by rs tuning. What is your time up to 300 km/h. Must be around 22 sec i guess even with the new 6th gear

    Re: need imput on exhaust and power upgrade

    Dario:
    Nice details Toby questions how many miles or km you had on your car before modifing by rs tuning. What is your time up to 300 km/h. Must be around 22 sec i guess even with the new 6th gear

    About 12000 miles.... I have done 4000 miles since modification.....

    0-300kph is an interesting one since it depends where one tests....

    I have timed 0-200 in 9.5s with a 0-100 on the same run in 3.8s as I like to be a bit sympathetic with my beautiful car Smiley

    I have done 0-300 at the airfield we use which is slightly uphill and is always 2-3s slower than other tracks (as it is a rough surface) and it was just under 25s so I am reckoning 22.Xs  at somewhere like Papenburg

    For reference a magazine tested a Veyron at this airfield and managed 0-320 in 28.6s, mine managed it in 30.5s on Saturday which was a hot day with my engine running only 695PS...


    --



     

    3.9  GT2 2011 make over


    Re: need imput on exhaust and power upgrade

    So you have a total with 18000 miles and no problems. Great work And great acceleration in high speed. Maybee you can hit on cool days 20 secs.. How do you calculate the Hors power lost on Hot days (refering to your 695 ps mentioned above)

    Re: need imput on exhaust and power upgrade

    The engine is totally rebuilt at 12500 miles, totally....

    I have the tables given to me by Schmirler which show how the boost is reduced from optimum as intake temperature rises, it reduces as a percentage of optimum per rpm per intake temp rise in bands...... and I can see from my data that I was running 5% less than engine dyno optimum power hence the 695PS. 

    I can also see from my data readings my boost reducing from the optimum 1.55bar at lower IATs to 1.45bar over 57c, so you are correct hopefully when the ambient drops (it was 22c saturday) I will get full fat power Smiley

    What I really need (no really Smiley) is Porsche / Borg Warner to bring out a bigger hot side VTG.... I discussed this with Schmirler and it is a definite route to more reliable power over 700PS, but TBH 700PS is plenty for now Smiley


    --



     

    3.9  GT2 2011 make over


    Re: need imput on exhaust and power upgrade

    Judging from the pictures, yeh I would agree that the thread has been sidetracked. :-) The main topics discussed are not complicated.

    1. Testing: My question is not about effort, but methodology. The cars selected are not representative.
    2. Test Result: In a perfect world, we would have impartial reviews by third party. In current climate, the 60-130 table on 6speedonline.com is the most comprehensive and fair source of information available.
    3. GT2 RS: This is one "sidetracking," and actually the most interesting to me.  My opinion remains the same: GT2 RS is, overall and by far, the ultimate 911. It has change in suspension  from, and weight saving over, GT2. And what about that Nurburgring time? 7:18? Lord have Mercy!  You could modify your suspension, but it's essentially impossible to match lap time of a Porsche tuned car - when they are this serious about it. You could improve a Turbo because it's designed to be soft and a daily driver. But a GT2 RS? IMHO no.
    4. RS Tuning: Another sidetracking. The real question is about cost/benefit ratio, not about absolute result. To me, a very valid and important issue for potential buyers.

    Toby, these are merely my opinions, and to me of course some very valid issues to be addressed. No need to be "winded" up or anything like that, if you are serious. And no need to answer - I am a humble stage 2 Turbo owner. Probably no one cares what I think anyway. Smiley OTOH, if you would like the test to be taken seriously, it's fair for readers to raise questions.

     

     


    --

    Regards,
    Can
    997 Turbo + Bilstein Damptronic "Stage 2" ( Review ) + GIAC ECU Custom Tune ( Fast as a torpedo & reversible to stock - Review ) + Cargraphic Exhaust ( Oh heavenly noise! )


    Re: need imput on exhaust and power upgrade

    cannga:

     And what about that Nurburgring time? 7:18? Lord have Mercy!  You could modify your suspension, but it's essentially impossible to match lap time of a Porsche tuned car - when they are this serious about it. .

     

     

    3 years newier tyres on the rs makes certainly again of a few secs. We should not forget the development work on tyres...

     

    Toby dont see the necessity of more power in your care, 700 hp on 1450kg, you cant get used to that.....


    Re: need imput on exhaust and power upgrade

    ^^^^Sidetracking continued: Good point, but still N1 Michelin Cup front and N2 rear, and I don't think the technology has changed that much. What they have done is more power, significant 100lbs + weight saving, tuning of springs, front track width, and height (firmer, wider, and lower of course), tuning of aerodynamics. It is an exquisite balance I am sure achieved mm by mm.
    Unlike the street tuned and compromised Turbo, a GT2 is an all out effort to show case Porsche's best. Outside of alignment change or an outright racetrack only tune, I have never thought it is a good idea to touch GT3/GT2 suspension hardware. Change any component and you will cause a compromise somewhere else, and very likely will slow the car down in anything other than a straight line.

    I don't mean to raise Toby's blood pressure further :-), merely discussing this interesting topic of suspension tuning. What has been done to this GT2 surprises me:
    1. Changing to street tire (soften)
    2. Using metallic heim-joint components (stiffen - track oriented)
    3. Bilstein B16 Damptronic (worrisome - goal of this?)
    It seems the suspension tuning is being pulled in 3 different directions. Smiley 1 and 2 are puzzling (matching soft tire with stiff component is not a good idea), but 3 is the most worrisome. Different spring rate and damping rate mean he has now completely altered the balance achieved by Porsche. More comfortable maybe, but IMHO no longer GT2-competitive.

     


    --

    Regards,
    Can
    997 Turbo + Bilstein Damptronic "Stage 2" ( Review ) + GIAC ECU Custom Tune ( Fast as a torpedo & reversible to stock - Review ) + Cargraphic Exhaust ( Oh heavenly noise! )


    Re: need imput on exhaust and power upgrade

    Cann, don't worry about my blood pressure

     

    The suspension spec on my car was specced with help mostly from my pal who posts on here as GT and has a heavily modified 997tt....

    The idea was to tighten up the rear with the solid parts and the Bilsteins were essentially because they are better parts than stock (they are tuned specifically for the GT2/3) and alledgedly signed off by Herr Rohl.... on the front I only changed the bushing which attaches the lower arm to the car to Tarret solid since the GT2 already has the 996GT3 arm and I am quite happy with the way the front end behaves....

    If you check out the PETs you will see that the GT2 runs the exact same rear parts as the bog standard carrera, same dog bones, lower arms and track rod (rear toe control arms) so effectively I am trying to run 900+NM through a rear suspension designed for 400 (or whatever) so as a starting point you can see that by tightening up the bushings things are going in the right direction ?

    The Heim joints (or whatever the termination is) really are excellent with little extra NVH so whilst as you say track orientated are certainly fine for a road car IMO.

    I'm not sure why you class the B16s as "worrisome" ? I simply wanted some nice fully tested shocks and have used Bilstein before many times..... they are slightly firmer (than stock) not softer !

    The street tyres I am currently running are the Conti Vmaxes which are a Contisport 3 but with a lot of strengthening including the sidewalls, they are the only tyre certified for 220mph+ also they have proper tread and we get a lot of rain in the UK...... they certainly seem good, not as much lateral grip but comparable traction and certainly have not added any sidewall squishiness which I can detect ?

    All my parts installation and set up were done by RS Tuning and my car has been tested by them and my pal Phil Hindley, who has also throughly tested the sliver GT2RS in the pic above with only positive comments on the handling and the way the car can put such a large amount of torque to the pavement through two wheels....


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    3.9  GT2 2011 make over


     
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