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    Re: Tesla

    I think the issue here is not whether a driver assist system is dangerous, they are not, when used appropriately they are a safety feature, the problem is when a driver assist system that is only Level 2 is marketed as an autopilot that can be used in a manner that exceeds it's limitations, then it's dangerous and the manufacturer had a responsibility to put every effort into marketing the product with those limitations made obvious, as well as our any mechanism in place that technologically available that will limit the any potential abuse of the system by the driver, and while the industry in general had been doing this, Tesla in particular has not, even the opposite, and knowingly so.

    You can like a lot of things about Tesla, this can't be one of them, drivers are stupid and manufacturers have a responsibility to make their cars a stupid-proof as posible for the safety of everybody. 


    Re: Tesla

    Tesla is constantly monitoring drivers to ensure your hands are safely on the wheel and the interior camera is also monitoring the driver and what he / she is doing. I have tested this many times. If you look away or use your phone etc the car will prompt you to take over even with a hand on the wheel.  I once tried to take a coat off and lifted my weight off the seat slightly and the system alarms went off so loud it woke my wife up and scared her to death. So getting out of the drivers seat for a nap in the back is not possible.  Not paying attention also not likely. If either the car will stop. 
    Again - people are using the systems correctly the vast amount of the time. Those who do not know exactly what they should be doing and choose not. They are also not complaining. The people complaining are the competition. Exclusively. 
    What many don’t realize is that the free autopilot is always running in the background as well and this is what makes the cars so safe. It will save your bacon routinely even if you are not making a mistake but someone around you is. In that case people are not abusing the system at all - they t is just there at the last second. 
    If you look at the numbers these complaints are a joke. Criminal - that is a stretch.  I one buying and owning a Tesla is confused about how the systems are to be used and what marketing intended to convey. 


    Re: Tesla

    Leawood911:

    Waste of time. Criminal probe is far from criminal charges. In fact making something civil into criminal makes finding fault a lot more difficult- especially when a) owners are not complaining AND b) there are explicit instructions by the maker on how to use the system (I.e. that you must pay attention and be responsible).  Of course with our famous two tiered system anything is possible if you are on the wrong side of Brandon. Especially if you are against him.  American lawyers - fell free to add value here. 

    Given how much safety Tesla adds thanks to their driver assist system, auto pilot included, it is very telling when regulators step in.  Look at the numbers. A dozen crashes in a million cars. They won’t say how many fatal. No details - again - or if the system was used properly, but yet a criminal probe regardless of how many people saved or damages prevented.  The big numbers don’t matter in politics. Amplify the outrage for your loyal listeners. 
     

    I have to ask myself what the ultimate goal is of these actions?  Are we trying to make driving safer through tech advances or are we trying to let companies who don’t bother with this level of safety catch up?  I can tell you for certain that if Tesla is forced to turn off auto pilot more people will die not less. Period. Of course they will never do that. Their intention is to hurt the company and stock.  Heck if Ford or GM had this tech in the lead none of this type of action would ever happen. Accidents would be swept under the rug. In fact their current systems are horrible and are years behind. Surprise, nobody complains now. 

    bottom line -

    These are propaganda lawsuits threats  that feed some peoples confirmation bias beautifully but go nowhere. Reminds me so much of Orange man does it not?  Maybe just me.  Similar in that in both cases success and good performance is vilified at the expense of ordinary peoples money and security for the benefit of those who can’t compete.  There are no good roadrunner cartoons so I guess these stories will have to do. Just don’t wait for the roadrunner to be caught. That would be silly. 

     

    I am in total agreement with you on that!Smiley

    Most Tesla drivers can't drive to start off with. There are some exceptions but the majority of them, if you send them back to driving school, they WILL fail and will never get a license Smiley


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    Re: Tesla

    Sad that to come to agreement you must somehow prejudge people based on what they drive or own. As though people who drive other cars are more capable.  I don’t think it works that way but thanks for your input anyway. 


    Re: Tesla

    Well...

    Tesla says it is adding radar in its cars next month amid self-driving suite concerns

    Fred Lambert

    Tesla Autopilot

    Tesla told the FCC that it plans to market a new radar starting next month. The move raises even more concerns about potentially needed updates to its hardware suite to achieve the promised self-driving capability.

    Since 2016, Tesla has claimed that all its vehicles produced going forward have “all the needed hardware” to become self-driving with future software updates.

    It turned out not to be true. 

    Tesla already had to upgrade its onboard computer and cameras in earlier vehicles, and it has yet to achieve self-driving capability. Its Full Self-Driving (FSD) software is still in beta and doesn’t enable fully autonomous driving.

    The automaker not only had to upgrade its hardware in some cases, but it even removed some hardware. First, it was the front-facing radar and more recently the ultrasonic sensors.

    It’s all part of its “Tesla Vision” approach where the automaker believes that the best way to achieve self-driving capability is through cameras being the only sensors. The logic is that the roads are designed to be operated by humans who operate cars through vision (eyes) and biological neural nets (brain).

    Tesla believes that the best way to replicate that is through cameras to replace the eyes and neural nets running on a computer to replace the brain.

    The company removed the radars on its vehicles last year and the ultrasonic sensors earlier this year.

    That’s why it was surprising earlier this year when we reported on Tesla filing with the FCC to use a new radar in its vehicles. The FCC had granted a confidential treatment to Tesla in order not to release the details of the new radar.

    Those confidential treatments are generally good for six months, and it was coming up tomorrow, but Tesla has filed an extension:

    In the request, Tesla confirms that it plans to start marketing the new device in “mid-January.”

    Tesla CEO Elon Musk told Electrek in June of last year after Tesla stopped using its radar:

    The probability of safety will be higher with pure vision than vision+radar, not lower. Vision has become so good that radar actually reduces signal/noise.

    However, the CEO also added that Tesla might still use radar if it had a “very high-resolution radar”:

    A very high resolution radar would be better than pure vision, but such a radar does not exist. I mean vision with high res radar would be better than pure vision.

    We saw some indications of Tesla working on that. We previously reported on Tesla looking to add a new “4D” imaging radar with twice the range of its previous radar.

    Last weekend, we also reported on a Tesla Model 3 prototype that potentially featured a new Autopilot/Full Self-Driving hardware suite.

    Electrek’s Take

    It looks like what Musk told us last year might be happening and Tesla is getting ready to put a more advanced radar inside its vehicles, and potentially a whole new sensor suite based on the Model 3 prototype.

    There’s also the possibility that Tesla is referring to an in-cabin radar, which the company has introduced in the Model S before, but considering that the application is talking about an “HD radar,” it seems more likely that it is for driver-assist features.

    Tesla was always going to keep improving its Autopilot/self-driving hardware so there’s nothing wrong with what’s happening, but it still feeds into the growing concerns that Tesla can’t achieve its promised self-driving capability with the current hardware.

    So there’s a possibility that Tesla is going to unveil a new suite of self-driving hardware next month that just improves the capability and Tesla still plans to deliver self-driving on the current hardware.

    But I think there’s room for concerns after Tesla has been wrong about self-driving several times already. It might be wrong about the current vehicles being able to achieve it.

    FTC: We use income earning auto affiliate links. More.


    Re: Tesla

    Tesla on self-driving claims: ‘failure to realize long-term, aspirational goal is not fraud’

    - by Fred Lambert

    Tesla Full Self-Driving Beta 10.69 barrier

    (7 December 2022)

    Tesla defended itself in a lawsuit over its self-driving claims brought by a customer by saying that “mere failure to realize a long-term, aspirational goal is not fraud.”

    In September, we reported on a Tesla owner filing a class-action lawsuit against Tesla over “allegedly misleading the public regarding its Autopilot, Enhanced Autopilot, and Full Self-Driving Capability (‘FSD’) technology.”

    Since 2016, Tesla has claimed that all its vehicles produced going forward have “all the needed hardware” to become self-driving with future software updates.

    However, the automaker has yet to deliver on the promise, and over the last few years, some owners have started to doubt Tesla’s ability to deliver at all – leading to the lawsuit now.

    Last week, Tesla filed to have the lawsuit dismissed, which resulted in a rare comment from the automaker about not having delivered on self-driving yet.

    In the motion to dismiss obtained by Electrek, Tesla argues that its failure to deliver on the goal doesn’t constitute fraud:

    “Mere failure to realize a long-term, aspirational goal is not fraud.” 

    That is going to make it difficult for the plaintiffs. They need to prove that Tesla intentionally misled customers into thinking they were buying vehicles that would become self-driving. They would need to prove that Tesla knew it couldn’t deliver on the promise, which could be difficult to do.

    Tesla never promised a specific timeline for delivering on the goal, but CEO Elon Musk previously said that Tesla would achieve self-driving in 2020. The goal has been delayed several times.

    In the motion to dismiss, Tesla argues that the complaint actually shows that Tesla has been working toward the goal of self-driving:

    To the contrary, allegations in the Complaint demonstrate that Tesla has been constantly improving its ADAS technology by releasing software updates, with a goal of achieving more and better autonomy capabilities in the future.

    Tesla also references several comments made by the company and CEO Elon Musk that constituted warnings that there will be issues bringing self-driving to market.

    In addition, from early on, Tesla made clear that “there will still be a significant time gap, varying widely by jurisdiction, before true self-driving is approved by regulators.”

    The company ends its argument by saying that “the Complaint identifies no specific timeline promised by Tesla to release fully autonomous capabilities to the general public.”

    Electrek’s Take

    It’s interesting that at least Tesla admits failure to achieve the goal because I’ve seen them moving the goalpost as of late.

    Musk went from mentioning “1 million robotaxi on the road by the end of the year” to “1 million people with FSD Beta by the end of the year” to “anyone who bought FSD will get access to the Beta in North America by the end of the year.”

    Tesla has now achieved that last version of the goal, but that’s so far from the original goal that it’s not in the same league.

    On top of what we hear about a new sensor suite potentially coming, things are not looking great on the FSD front. As I have said for a long time, Tesla should at least offer refunds to those who bought the FSD package.

    Link: https://electrek.co/2022/12/07/tesla-self-driving-claims-failure-realize-long-term-aspirational-goal-not-fraud/

    Smiley


    Re: Tesla

    Another 

    Exclusive: Musk finds new Tesla CEO to sleep in Gigafactories for him

    Chen Du

    posted on 3 hours ago

    Tom Zhu, current Tesla China and APAC head, will continue his long-held tradition of avoiding the spotlight.

    BEIJING, Dec. 7 (PingWest) - Elon Musk has decided on the person to take the position as the CEO of Tesla Global, according to trusted sources who spoke to PingWest. Tom Xiaotong Zhu, currently President of Tesla China and a Global Vice President, will likely move on to lead the electric vehicle and clean energy giant.

    Different sources have also told PingWest under anonymity that the new appointment for Zhu will only cover Tesla’s automotive business, and will exclude its autonomous driving and robotics projects from the start.

    On November 16, 2022, Tesla board member James Murdoch stated at the trial of a lawsuit that Musk had recently proposed the possibility of someone else taking over some leadership at Tesla and identified a potential successor. Murdoch did not reveal the specific candidate.

    Tom Zhu. Credit: Xinhua News Agency

    Tom Zhu. Credit: Xinhua News Agency

    The answer is becoming clear: Zhu is the most likely, if not the only, candidate.

    In terms of career background, Zhu had no experience in artificial intelligence, computer science, or the automotive industry prior to joining Tesla.

    Born in the heavily industrialized northeastern city of Shenyang, Liaoning Province of China, Zhu joined Tesla China in April 2014, taking on the expansion efforts of the company's Supercharging project. Graduated from Auckland University of Technology in 2004 with a bachelor’s degree in information technology, Zhu also holds an MBA from Duke's Fuqua School of Business. Prior to joining Tesla, Zhu was involved in the founding of a local consulting firm focusing on property development and engineering.

    Zhu rose to Tesla China’s leadership on December 12, 2014, when former Global Vice President and President of Greater China Veronica Bixuan Wu 吴碧瑄 left the company abruptly due to disappointing sales numbers. Tesla announced that Zhu would replace Wu to lead sales operations in China. In a February 2015 press interview, Zhu’s publicly displayed title was the China Country Manager for Tesla, a position that is not considered high-level internally.

    In July 2019, nearly a year after Tesla signed the crucial investment agreement with local governments in Shanghai for a Gigafactory, Zhu was publicly identified as Tesla’s Global Vice President and President of Greater China. In October that year, Gigafactory Shanghai officially began churning out vehicles, helping Tesla deliver the first domestically made Model 3 just two days before the new year.

    Since then, Tesla has recorded remarkable growth in China. Financial statements showed that the company delivered 936,000 vehicles globally in 2021, of which 484,130 were made from the Shanghai plant, accounting for 51.7% of the total global deliveries. On August 15, 2022, Musk revealed that Tesla had just crossed the mark of 3 million vehicles made, of which the Shanghai plant produced 1 million. Xinhua News Agency reported that Gigafactory Shanghai delivered 100,291 vehicles in November this year alone, setting yet again a new record for monthly deliveries. Within the first 11 months of 2022, Shanghai Gigafactory’s cumulative deliveries exceeded 650,000 units.

    Tesla’s reports for Q3 this year indicated that it achieved operating revenue of $5.131 billion (approx. RMB 37.492 billion) in China, up 64.8% from $3.113 billion last year, adding its operating revenue for the first three quarters in China to $13.568 billion (approx. RMB 99.141 billion), up 50.5% from $9.015 billion in 2021. Accounting for 23.9% of the company’s worldwide revenue, China is now Tesla’s largest market globally, second only to the United States.

    Credit: Tesla

    Credit: Tesla

    As good numbers keep coming out of China under Zhu's leadership, Musk publicly praised the production efficiency and the incredible dedication of China-based employees on more than one occasion. While still maintaining his positions as Global Vice President, President of Greater China, managing affairs in Mainland China, Hong Kong SAR, and Taiwan (province of China), Zhu was also appointed in September last year to lead Tesla’s businesses in the Asia-Pacific region, which includes Singapore, Japan, Korea, Australia, and New Zealand. The individual Country Managers of these countries would report to Zhu. A major portion of the Model Y and Model 3 vehicles sold in these markets are produced in the Shanghai Gigafactory.

    Within Tesla, the leader of Asia-Pacific would also be allowed to directly report to Tesla’s headquarters. A previous report by CNBC indicated that there were 27 executives worldwide who reported directly to Musk. Only three among them were based outside the US: Lothar Thommes, Managing Director at Tesla Grohmann Automation, Joe Ward, who’s in charge of Tesla’s businesses in EMEA, and Zhu.

    It is worth pointing out that Wu, the predecessor of Zhu, did not gain that direct report line to Musk during her tenure. Wu used to report to Jerome Guillen, who was the longtime “number two” at Tesla, leading its global sales efforts as well as the Tesla Semi project, before leaving the company in June 2021. Zhu was the first ever Greater China executive at Tesla to report directly to Musk, a fact that is closely related to the EV maker's increasing focus on the region.

    It is therefore very likely that Zhu may move one step higher to lead Tesla’s global efforts in production, delivery, and sales, after passing with flying colors in Greater China.

    Despite the promotion to Global CEO remaining a stunning scenario, Zhu’s promotion trajectory within Tesla proves that he may as well be the right person for the job. PingWest learned from trusted sources that after resolving the temporary production shutdown at the Shanghai plant in earlier this year due to the Omicron outbreak, Zhu spent most of the second half of this year shuttling between Fremont, California, and Austin, Texas, where Tesla headquarters are located, working with Musk on a number of global matters, rather than focusing on the Shanghai Plant or even regional matters in Asia-Pacific.

    According to business registration information, Zhu serves as the legal representative for both Tesla (Shanghai) Co., Ltd. and Tesla (Beijing) Co., Ltd, the two main operating entities in China. However, the name displayed was Zhu's English name, Xiaotong Zhu, rather than his Chinese name 朱晓彤, indicating that he may already hold a foreign passport.

    Tesla’s current structure of top management, as well as the situation of key executives from Musk’s other companies, are also highly related to Zhu being the most likely torchbearer.

    Drew Baglino, Senior Vice President for Powertrain and Energy Engineering, is one of the highly regarded headquarters executives. He is in charge of the company’s most important technical department, the heart of all Tesla vehicular products. In the meantime, two other executives are known to be close to Musk: Pete Bannon, the Vice President for Low Voltage and Silicon Engineering at Tesla, and Charlie Kuehmann, VP of Materials Engineering at SpaceX, another company of Musk’s.

    But none of the US-based Tesla headquarters executives and leaders from his other companies were previously groomed to play the same role as Guillen, who can run production and sales – the lifelines of the company – at the same time. Tesla’s financial and delivery crisis in 2018, which was miraculously saved by the Shanghai Gigafactory, proved that production, delivery, and market share expansion remain the company’s utmost priority. Zhu’s proven record in these lines of work ensured his position as the one most likely to take over should Musk allows.

    However, Zhu's highly likely appointment as Tesla Global CEO will probably not carry the same weight as what Musk’s current leadership entails.

    There is no indication whatsoever that Musk will relieve himself from the key technical works at the company, such as product development, autonomous driving, robotics, etc. Nor would it be surprising to see him delivering keynotes for Tesla’s product launches, and technical and recruiting events. It would also not be a surprise if the senior executives leading powertrain, hardware and software engineering, as well as autonomous driving, etc., continue to take orders directly from Musk. 

    Antonio Gracias, a former board member and a longtime friend of Musk’s, stated that the Tesla leadership did hold discussions for the search of an “executive CEO” that specializes in sales, finance, and human resources, allowing Musk to focus his energy on technology. However, such discussions did not come to fruition according to previous knowledge.

    Now, the right person revealed himself. The likely new CEO would not only be in charge of sales, but also run its Gigafactories in the US, China, and Germany, as well as potential future ones in other key countries, such as India or Korea.

    Zhu will continue his long-held tradition of avoiding the spotlight. He is known as an extremely restrained executive, a direct contradiction to Musk. He has very limited public appearances, and rarely accepts interview requests from foreign media outlets. His page on LinkedIn also disappeared.

    Personnel close to Tesla China told PingWest that Zhu’s work ethics, however, is very similar to Musk’s: works twenty-four-seven, replies to work messages instantly even at 3-4AM, has almost no personal life, and is demanding to subordinates. This information is also presented in the PingWest article《特斯拉中国乱象揭蛊 第三季》(Giga-Sweatshop Meets Corporate Overlords: an Exclusive Look Into How Tesla China Runs its Shanghai Gigafactory 3). Disclaimer: PingWest is involved in legal proceedings with Tesla (Shanghai) Co., Ltd over the publication of the aforementioned article.

    From March to April this year, the Omicron version of the Covid-19 pandemic had led to a brief shutdown of the Shanghai Gigafactory. PingWest had learned that Zhu “slept” in the workshops of the plant for “two months”, in order to resolve manufacturing challenges, such as the recovery and ramp-up of production volume, in a similar style to Musk sleeping in the company’s Fremont plant to ensure delivery numbers, or him transforming Twitter offices into makeshift hotels to focus on building "Twitter 2.0" in a "hardcore" manner. The delivery volume of the Shanghai plant did recover post-shutdown, and exceeded 100,000 vehicles last month.

    There is no doubt that Musk would prefer a Global CEO that can sleep in the company's Gigafactories. His own energy wouldn’t allow him to do that anymore, as he now often finds the need to sleep at Twitter’s headquarters, or a SpaceX facility expecting a rocket launch. He would most likely prefer a surrogate who can embed themselves so deeply at Gigafactories from time to time, in order to tend to urgent production matters. There is no one among Tesla’s current top executives lineup with more experience sleeping in factories than Zhu.

    The potential appointment of Zhu as Global CEO may also unlock more possibilities for Tesla to grow in China, allowing it to implement even more flexible and efficient strategies, such as higher-targeted production ramp-ups, increased share of online sales, more frequent price adjustment, and more lawsuits against its customers and local media outlets. At the same time, Zhu is already in a tough position tackling the rise of the domestic EV industry. Local challengers including BYD, Huawei, Changcheng, LiAuto, Nio, and Hozon Auto, etc., are not only performing well domestically, but also making their moves in the global market.

    PingWest is unable to confirm the successor of Zhu, and will continue to report on Tesla’s operation in China.


    Re: Tesla

    FSD is making great progress. The beta is opening up to everyone - exciting times. I might have to try the $200 monthly subscription just for fun. 
    As it keeps rolling out I expect the FUD to reach all time hilarious levels. 
    The new CEO seems like a great pick 


    Re: Tesla

    095AFEBB-308A-4389-80C2-09332F0A38DB.png

    Smiley


    Re: Tesla

    Tesla's German Gigafactory in 'Total Chaos' Over Staff Shortages: Report

    Not sure if Elon Musk is too busy with his other "adventures" (incl. Twitter) because this doesn't sound good.

    Also, what happens if the Twitter deal requires him (Musk) to sell even more Tesla stock?

    I don't get the Twitter deal at all but maybe I don't have Musk's intelligence. yes 


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    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Lamborghini Huracan Performante (2019), BMW Z4 M40i (2022), Jeep Grand Cherokee Trackhawk (2019 EU)


    Re: Tesla

    Leawood911:

    FSD is making great progress. The beta is opening up to everyone - exciting times. I might have to try the $200 monthly subscription just for fun. 
    As it keeps rolling out I expect the FUD to reach all time hilarious levels. 
    The new CEO seems like a great pick 

    Unfortunately regarding FSD, the progress is not linear but exponentially more difficult the further along you are because of the almost limitless different scenarios it has to encompass, it's not like FSD inside a factory or airport where those scenarios are very limited and can ask be accounted for, so the last part of development is many orders of magnitude more difficult to achieve in real world FSD, and for it to be FSD, good enough is not enough, it's not like a software on a smartphone or TV, it needs to be practically perfect or it can't be FSD ok public streets. 

    And this is not a Tesla thing, it applies to everyone working on FSD, none of the are even close to achieving FSD yet, the only difference is that they all admit it except Tesla whole for 9 years is promising "next year" it will be ready while pre-selling FSD and each year they don't deliver on the promise, even promising robotaxis...2 years ago, now that was reaching all time hilarious levels.


    Re: Tesla

    FSD is a solution looking for a problem. A giant money sink wasting money.

    There are some uses for FSD, like inside factory floors or warehouse floor to move stuff along, those work great. But it's specific cases, and those 'robots' have specially marked out paths. 


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    Re: Tesla

    Whoopsy:

    FSD is a solution looking for a problem. A giant money sink wasting money.

    There are some uses for FSD, like inside factory floors or warehouse floor to move stuff along, those work great. But it's specific cases, and those 'robots' have specially marked out paths. 

    Plenty of YouTube videos showing the latest update driving around and doing quite well. Might be worth it just to check out and get a feel for how close they really are.  As a software developer I have always been in doubt and I get the complexity but it is interesting to see how they are processing. It may be time, sometime, to seriously ask oneself what Tesla would be worth if they can pull it off. Is it worthless or would it be an achievement?    
    I will not post FSD videos here. You can find them if interested 


    Re: Tesla

    Tesla says its self-driving technology may be a ‘failure’ — but not fraud

    (8 December 2022)

    Tesla’s Full Self-Driving technology may be a failure, Tesla lawyers admit — but it’s not a fraud.

    The electric car company is facing a class-action lawsuit from Autopilot and Full Self-Driving (FSD) technology customers. They claim they were ripped off, duped by statements from co-founder and Chief Executive Elon Musk and marketing materials from Tesla over the last six years suggesting full-fledged autonomous driving was imminent. No Tesla on the road today is capable of full self-driving, and yet Tesla sells what it calls a Full Self-Driving Capability for $15,000.

    In its defense, Tesla lawyers said that “mere failure to realize a long-term, aspirational goal is not fraud.” That argument is contained in a motion to dismiss the case that was filed last week in U.S. District Court in San Francisco.

    The main plaintiff is Briggs Matsko, a resident of Rancho Murieta, Calif. If the case goes forward, it could lead to deposition of Tesla employees who helped develop the technology and reveal what Musk knew and didn’t know about its true capabilities when he made numerous forecasts over the years — including the prediction that there would be a million Tesla robotaxis on the road by the end of 2020, that customers could make $30,000 a year hiring them out, and that their cars would appreciate in value. 

    Tesla lawyers are attempting to prevent that information from going public. The motion to dismiss the case rests mainly on Tesla’s contention that the papers customers signed when they bought their cars obligate them to individually file claims through the private arbitration system.

    A public trial allows for customers to file as a large group, known as a class; arbitration means each customer would be on his or her own. While a public trial could reveal testimony from current or former Tesla employees on the state of Tesla’s automated technology development at any given time, arbitration would keep that testimony secret.

    Thousands of lawsuits have been filed against Tesla and Musk. The private arbitration move is often Tesla’s first reaction against public court lawsuits. The case of Cristina Balan, as chronicled by The Times, is perhaps the most famous example. A former Tesla engineer, she claims she was defamed by Tesla in 2017, damaging her professional reputation, but through a series of procedural arguments Tesla lawyers have kept the case out of public court.

    The FSD fraud suit runs through a litany of claims and promises made by Musk and Tesla about automated technology that will be familiar to anyone who closely follows Musk.

    They include a 2016 video that purports to show a Tesla driving itself through the streets of Palo Alto with complete autonomy. Before the video rolls, with the Rolling Stones’ “Paint It Black” as background music, a message reads, “The person in the driver’s seat is only there for legal reasons. He is not driving anything. The car is driving itself.”

    Tesla workers later revealed that the video was fabricated, done in multiple takes, with the driving system’s failures removed, including a crash into a fence. The video remains on Tesla’s website.

    The lawsuit highlights the multiple revisions of Musk’s statements over the years that full autonomy would be achieved in three months, or six months, or the end of the year (in any given year) or the next year.

    In its motion to dismiss, Tesla lawyers note that Musk often has said regulatory approval will be necessary before actual autonomy can be deployed. But neither Musk nor the lawyers say which regulators they’re talking about.

    “Tesla would need no federal approval to deploy an automated driving system in its current vehicles,” said Bryant Walker Smith, a law professor who specializes in autonomous vehicles at the University of South Carolina. “Tesla would need state approval in California and a small number of other states, but it has not sought that approval. Tesla would need approval in Europe, but it has not sought that approval.”

    Regulatory agencies have been investigating Tesla’s automated technology for years. Several fatalities have been linked to Autopilot software. The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration has several investigations open, including a probe into why Teslas seem to disproportionately crash into emergency vehicles parked on the roadside. The agency has set no public timeline for a determination.

    The California Department of Motor Vehicles says it’s looking into the matter as well. While Musk was making bold predictions about full self-driving, the DMV and Tesla were trading emails in 2019 and 2020 that confirm the company’s Full Self-Driving mode, also known as City Streets, was a Level 2 technology. The emails were released under a public records request by legal document publisher Plainsite. Under the Level 2 label, Tesla’s system is no more capable of autonomous driving than similar driver-assistance packages sold by General Motors, Ford and other companies.

    With a Level 2 system, a car company isn’t required to report crashes to the DMV. If Tesla were experimenting with fully driverless technology, the law would require such reports.

    A tour of YouTube shows that Tesla is experimenting with technology that goes beyond mere driver assistance, with untrained customers behind the wheel. The DMV requires autonomous car developers to use trained test drivers.

    In some videos, the Tesla FSD cars make turns, stop for traffic lights and avoid pedestrians. In other videos, they drive into oncoming trucks in the wrong lane, steer toward pedestrians, and in one case, mistake the moon for a yellow traffic signal.

    DMV regulations on autonomous vehicles include rules that bar a company from marketing a vehicle as autonomous when it’s not. The DMV began a “review” of Tesla’s Full Self-Driving Capability under that rule in May 2021. That led to a preliminary complaint filed against Tesla last July. The agency says the case has been in the “discovery” phase for the last four months, and declines to state how long that phase will last.

    DMV director Steve Gordon has refused to speak with The Times or any other media outlet on the subject of autonomous vehicle regulation for the last two years. Tesla lawyers did not respond to a request for comment. Musk did not answer a tweet seeking comment. Tesla disbanded its media relations team several years ago.

    Link: https://www.latimes.com/business/story/2022-12-08/tesla-lawsuit-full-self-driving-technology-failure-not-fraud


    Re: Tesla

    I would be more interested in your opinion rather than someone else’s words. 
    pretty much all actual owners of these cars were never under the impression that this would work in the near future. The people with the most complaining are not owners but rather the competition. Meanwhile Tesla owners are some of the happiest car owners on the planet and it bugs the shit out of the competition. There is a good reason for their market cap. 



    Re: Tesla

    Nothing new. 

    These are the end of quarter push cars. 

    Instead of careful planning and building everything right, Elon realized he needs to meet delivery expectations every quarter so those cars produced a month before quarter end will all be like this. Elon just want to crank them out as fast as possible and deal with them later. 

    Best Teslas to buy are the ones from the beginning of the quarter.

     


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    Re: Tesla

    Whoopsy:

    Nothing new. 

    These are the end of quarter push cars. 

    Instead of careful planning and building everything right, Elon realized he needs to meet delivery expectations every quarter so those cars produced a month before quarter end will all be like this. Elon just want to crank them out as fast as possible and deal with them later. 

    Best Teslas to buy are the ones from the beginning of the quarter.

     

    Lol. And you know all this how?  From one guy showing us his car?  What if I showed you one Tesla owner showing all his friends how well built his car is?  Cause I have tried and that does not work.  Millions of owner could protest in the streets how perfect their cars are and it would not matter because it is not what you want to hear.  You want to hear this one guy. 
    Someone pointed out that since the left now hates Elon you will be able to tell the lefties by the shitty EVs they drive.  You guys are welcome to keep trying everything other than a Tesla. What a price to pay to prove a point IMHO. 


    Re: Tesla

    Check out the comments on the Reddit thread I posted, it's not one owner, it's pretty bad Leawood. That said, Nick is driving a 918, and Taycan as well as the Lightning and I think he still has his E-tron? hell of a price he is paying for not liking Teslas indecision


    Re: Tesla

    Leawood911:

    Lol. And you know all this how?  From one guy showing us his car?  What if I showed you one Tesla owner showing all his friends how well built his car is?  Cause I have tried and that does not work.  Millions of owner could protest in the streets how perfect their cars are and it would not matter because it is not what you want to hear.  You want to hear this one guy. 
    Someone pointed out that since the left now hates Elon you will be able to tell the lefties by the shitty EVs they drive.  You guys are welcome to keep trying everything other than a Tesla. What a price to pay to prove a point IMHO. 

     

    Hmm, have you been living under a rock? You not reading news and stuff? It's pretty much common knowledge. 

    End of quarter cars are rush jobs that skip QC and stuff. Once they are out the door they are marked delivered on the balance sheet. Whatever is wrong can be fixed after under warranty. Tesla lives and dies by the delivery numbers and Elon needed that to prop up stock prices.

    As for what price I pay?

    Tesla doesn't have a pickup, so the Lightning win by default. Even if I wanted to buy one from Tesla, I can't.

    My 2 Taycans, they are a better sports sedan than any Tesla offerings. Heck, even more advanced than anything from Tesla with the 800V system. And the one I currently have, the Cross Turismo, isn't even offered by Tesla. Unless of course I missed the phantom announcement by Elon on a Tesla wagon.

    My Mach E, the electric SUV. One could argue I could have gotten a Model X or Model Y, but the Mach E is more luxurious than either and also cheaper than either. Has a safer Blue Cruise system than the Tesla systems (even when I do not use it). Range wise it is comparable to Teslas. Am I giving up anything to NOT buy Tesla? I think not. 

    Honestly, a few years ago Tesla win by default only because they are the only game in town. Nowadays there are plenty of competition that are better car than Tesla. Heck the one I really wanted was the Hyundai Ioniq 5, best EV on the market right now. I couldn't get one hence why I settle on the 2nd best, Mach E, and mine isn't even the GT. It's not perfect, there aren't a perfect car, but it's good enough. 

    Ah, and one last thing. The lefts are the one driving Teslas, California are full of them. The rights are mostly on diesel pickups 😉.


    --

     

     


    Re: Tesla

    Blue Cruise. Lol. 


    Re: Tesla

    TesIa market cap...  C7BEAB03-A272-4B0C-AF73-D01AEAA5AA36.gif

    ...insider stock trades...  BF822CAF-50E5-4C47-9B23-F36F9B8F5A9C.gif

    B2054AF6-7946-42EA-80F9-88653EACA2B4.jpeg

    ...why are insiders selling ahead of Q4 results? Smiley


    Re: Tesla

    Buy the dip!


    --

    GT Lover, Porsche fan

    991.2 GT3 manual

    Cayenne GTS 2014

    Cayenne Coupe Turbo 2020


    Re: Tesla

    the-missile:

    Buy the dip!

    Sometimes I wonder if Musk is really that dumb to do what he does now or maybe he behaves like this on purpose, so the Tesla stock drops further and he can buy it back cheap. Smiley SmileySmiley

    I have Tesla stock, bought it cheap compared to others but won't buy the dip anymore as long as Musk is behaving irrationally. Smiley


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Lamborghini Huracan Performante (2019), BMW Z4 M40i (2022), Jeep Grand Cherokee Trackhawk (2019 EU)


    Re: Tesla

    Please give an example of irrational behavior.  This is nothing more than Trump 2.0 character assassination by the leftist media.  It can be tempting to let these clowns put ideas into your head and super easy to go along with the sheep. 
    Obviously getting into politics is not a good idea especially if you are going after the side that has never fought fair but in my view he is taking on the irrational market and political forces which hinder the free markets success.  Pretty important if you run global enterprises.  And the most gutsy thing he could do with his money - support freedom. 


    Re: Tesla

    Leawood911:

    Please give an example of irrational behavior. 

    Lol, let's see, let me back up in time... oh, say a few hours will do:

    https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1604617643973124097?s=20&t=B-wuFprpUVHvkbryFwrRww

    The guy is polling random strangers in the internet and letting them decide whether he should step down as head of Twitter or not  


    Re: Tesla

    Carlos from Spain:
    Leawood911:

    Please give an example of irrational behavior. 

    Lol, let's see, let me back up in time... oh, say a few hours will do:

    https://twitter.com/elonmusk/status/1604617643973124097?s=20&t=B-wuFprpUVHvkbryFwrRww

    The guy is polling random strangers in the internet and letting them decide whether he should step down as head of Twitter or not  

    Actually an excellent idea and a good way to diffuse some of the political heat. He will still be the owner but someone else can make fun of liberals and their media clown car.   IMHO you have not shown me anything irrational at all. Try again. 


    Re: Tesla

    Some people will always see nothing wrong with Elon. People only see what they wanted to see. 


    --

     

     


    Re: Tesla

    Leawood911:
    IMHO you have not shown me anything irrational at all. Try again. 

    And I will never be able to show it to you no matter what he does, because unfortunately you could never see it, that's kind of the problem here.

    You asked for one example and I showed you and obvious one from a few hours ago where the head of a company is basically publicly flipping a coin on whether he will continue to be at the head of the company or not, and letting that decide it, and you see a great idea instead.


    Re: Tesla

    Hmmm.  Let me look for irrational behavior.  It doesn’t seem too difficult here.  


     
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