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    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    One should also add that the German auto industry's shift to EVs is an end result of onerous carbon restrictions implemented by the EU just as China is setting regulations on the adoption of EVs.  In this new environment of restricting CO2 emissions for transportation, no sign is as strong as what has happened with Audi and its new S6 and S7 product launch in the EU and North America.  In the EU, these new variants utilize the 3.0l diesel motor with twin turbochargers and an electronic compressor found in the SQ5.  In North America, these cars use the same petrol motor found in the RS5, which is derived from the same otto motor found in the Panamera S.  Of course, the performance of the North American variants will be greater, less fuel economy, than the similar but same named EU variants.  

    These differences will only accelerate as the EU tightens carbon levels to 95 gm/km and less. 


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    The fact that the X uses the same energy as an ETron is quite a feat in itself, and in reality the difference is probably even better than what you posted show. The X is much bigger and a 7 seater. The ETron is smaller than even a model Y which will also seat 7 people, it is a Q5...

    It is not clear why the EPA number disadvantage the ETron, but we should have plenty of real data soon.


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    The Audi e-tron is positioned, by size, between the Audi Q5 and Q7 and is dimensionally similar to the Porsche Cayenne.  


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    So I spent some time inside the Audi e-tron, the car is night and say bette than Tesla for fit and finish and presence. Th e only metric Tesla had an edge is straight line acceleration and perhaps rnage. But that last part is also a moot point if l use the EV people's argument that range doesn't matter if someone recharges them every night.

    Not sure any sane person would pick a any Tesla over the e-tron, and I am not even an Audi guy. 


    --

     

     


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    HI Whoopsy. In my experience it's quite the opposite. 

    The Audi has no meaningful autonomous driving features. They are not even bringing the limited Traffic Jam Pilot aides to the US market. And unlike Tesla, they are not including the hardware for it so even if they would change their mind, it can't be enabled since no cars will have the hardware. Tesla on the other hand is known for including lots of extra hardware that can be unlocked and updated OTA. Autopilot is constantly improving, they are retrofitting hardware if needed. This Audi is stuck being obsolete the day it arrived.

    The interior is definitely nicer, but it's also a bit small for an SUV. I believe cargo space is actually less than even a Model S and much less than the Model X, even though it weighs significantly more than both. It's a very compromised design.

    I think it's still a very nice EV, but it's not saying much if the 2019 Etron is the same (or in this case mainly inferior) than what is essentially a 2012 Model S. Imagine if 2019 Lamborghini launched with less performance a functionality than a 2012 Ferrari or other supercar. That's what has happened here.

    To me Volkswagen is just very far behind and not only does it show in their products but also in their sales. Etrons will not be available in any significant number. Dealers won't keep any in stock. How can you take their effort serious if they won't even stock their latest and greatest product? Why would they make it special order only? I think even Audi has little faith in the sales of the Etron and their ability to compete with Tesla.

    The Supercharger network is much bigger than anything Volkswagen has yet (though I'm sure that will change.) That's a pretty good reason to choose a Tesla as well.

    The only advantage I see for the Audi is interior quality and sound insulation. I think depreciation will be very bad on it as well, but that's still unknown.


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    Thanks for those articles, CGX. I haven't seen those yet. Unfortunately they don't give any details on how they obtained those efficiency numbers. It's possible that their highway speeds were much lower than normal. The 24.8 kWh/100 km results are similar to those obtained by a popular EV YouTuber reviewer, however those were at relatively low speeds, if I recall correctly (90kph or so). I believe the Model X is much more efficient at highway speeds of 120-130 kph. This is quite possibly why the EPA numbers are so different.

    This same reviewer did a comparison of the iPace, Model X, and Etron not long ago and his numbers show the Etron to be much less efficient. Here's a link to it:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=blqZ_rZ7WFI


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    keithw:

    Thanks for those articles, CGX. I haven't seen those yet. Unfortunately they don't give any details on how they obtained those efficiency numbers. It's possible that their highway speeds were much lower than normal. The 24.8 kWh/100 km results are similar to those obtained by a popular EV YouTuber reviewer, however those were at relatively low speeds, if I recall correctly (90kph or so). I believe the Model X is much more efficient at highway speeds of 120-130 kph. This is quite possibly why the EPA numbers are so different.

    This same reviewer did a comparison of the iPace, Model X, and Etron not long ago and his numbers show the Etron to be much less efficient. Here's a link to it:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=blqZ_rZ7WFI

    Auto, Motor, und Sport, being a prominent German automotive magazine is quite anal with its testing protocol and it is well-documented in other issues.  It is about being reproducible with controlled parameters; it is not a YouTuber driving the vehicle, posting a video, and calling it a scientific fact.  


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    keithw:

    HI Whoopsy. In my experience it's quite the opposite. 

    The Audi has no meaningful autonomous driving features. They are not even bringing the limited Traffic Jam Pilot aides to the US market. And unlike Tesla, they are not including the hardware for it so even if they would change their mind, it can't be enabled since no cars will have the hardware. Tesla on the other hand is known for including lots of extra hardware that can be unlocked and updated OTA. Autopilot is constantly improving, they are retrofitting hardware if needed. This Audi is stuck being obsolete the day it arrived.

    The interior is definitely nicer, but it's also a bit small for an SUV. I believe cargo space is actually less than even a Model S and much less than the Model X, even though it weighs significantly more than both. It's a very compromised design.

    I think it's still a very nice EV, but it's not saying much if the 2019 Etron is the same (or in this case mainly inferior) than what is essentially a 2012 Model S. Imagine if 2019 Lamborghini launched with less performance a functionality than a 2012 Ferrari or other supercar. That's what has happened here.

    To me Volkswagen is just very far behind and not only does it show in their products but also in their sales. Etrons will not be available in any significant number. Dealers won't keep any in stock. How can you take their effort serious if they won't even stock their latest and greatest product? Why would they make it special order only? I think even Audi has little faith in the sales of the Etron and their ability to compete with Tesla.

    The Supercharger network is much bigger than anything Volkswagen has yet (though I'm sure that will change.) That's a pretty good reason to choose a Tesla as well.

    The only advantage I see for the Audi is interior quality and sound insulation. I think depreciation will be very bad on it as well, but that's still unknown.

    I don’t want to be rude but Whoopsy has a high-end car background that allows him to write about the etron unlike most people (including yourself). We understand you like Tesla and might even be on their payroll. Therefore, please keep this in mind when posting. This is a forum to discuss high-end cars. We don’t want more space being taken up by this Tesla nonsense. Smaller posts are fine but not long stories that are written by Tesla staff...


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    This response is much appreciated as one felt the same.  Writing about highly automated driving aids on a car/driving enthusiasts’ website seems counterproductive, at best.  


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    Tesla discussion is going to get banned just like Politics was and for the same reason. People here can't shift from their overwhelming biases, can't understand other views or acknowledge them as even remotely reasonable. 

    You want to know why so many people leave this forum? Because only Black or White is allowed, there is not middle ground allowed. And once the majority come down on either Black or White the other side is ridiculed and driven out. Grey is NEVER allowed. Has to be one pole or the other. God help you if you like the loosing team.


    --

    Past-President, Porsche Club of America - Upper Canada Region


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    Mithras:

    Tesla discussion is going to get banned just like Politics was and for the same reason. People here can't shift from their overwhelming biases, can't understand other views or acknowledge them as even remotely reasonable. 

    You want to know why so many people leave this forum? Because only Black or White is allowed, there is not middle ground allowed. And once the majority come down on either Black or White the other side is ridiculed and driven out. Grey is NEVER allowed. Has to be one pole or the other. God help you if you like the loosing team.

    Sadly, but true!


    --

    AM


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    The reason why I am fed up with clicking on the Mission E thread is that every time I see there are new posts, I hope there is information or photo's of the car. Sadly, there is only Tesla content which I get quite tired off.


    --


    Porsche, separates Le Mans from Le Boys


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    Mithras:

    Tesla discussion is going to get banned just like Politics was and for the same reason. People here can't shift from their overwhelming biases, can't understand other views or acknowledge them as even remotely reasonable. 

    You want to know why so many people leave this forum? Because only Black or White is allowed, there is not middle ground allowed. And once the majority come down on either Black or White the other side is ridiculed and driven out. Grey is NEVER allowed. Has to be one pole or the other. God help you if you like the loosing team.

    That was not the message one thought was posted.  The newbie’s response read more like ad copy versus a typical post on rennteam, especially with the intended misspelling of e-tron.  


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    Sorry, I didn't mean to offend. I'm not sure what you mean by intended misspelling. It's easier to type without the hyphen and I honestly wasn't sure if things were capitalized or not off hand. Etron, etron, E-tron, e-tron... I don't think anyone would confuse them in the context like when people type M3 for Model 3 vs BMW M3. Audi tags it #etron on social media, so how bad could it be?

    I thought my comments between the two were pretty fair. The Audi is typical Audi inside. It's nice. It's similar to all other mid-range+ Audis. The handling was nothing out of the ordinary under normal driving conditions. You won't notice it being anything special. I suppose it could be better on a race track, but it does weigh something to the tune of 5500 pounds. It doesn't feel like it rolls as much as a giant truck, but that's normal for a lot of BEVs since weight can be lower to the ground. It was definitely quieter. It is after all just a normal car, not intended to be much more than a Q-series model. I really don't think it's going to wow anyone.

    I didn't realize this forum was only for high-end cars, but aren't both Porsches and Teslas are high-end? Many Teslas are just as expensive or more expensive that Porsches. Maybe they aren't high-end in a traditional sense, but the technology is not cheap and it's usually cutting edge in the segment. I think Autopilot is a high-end feature. I think the S P100D acceleration is high-end. The money in Teslas goes towards different things than traditional ICEs.

    I do really look forward to seeing the Taycan and just how fast it can charge and how quick it will be able to accelerate, but it's just that it has been in development so long and Volkswagen is constantly hyping up BEVs that are never close to production. With the e-tron SUV, it simply hasn't done much new or exciting in the space even after what seems like a 5 years of countless BEV announcements. Keep in mind the name of this thread is Mission-E because it will be nearly 5 years between debut and production. VAG BEV announcements have become sort of a running joke among the EV communities because they just keep announcing stuff, claiming it will be this and that and that they'll have so many BEVs in 2025 or something like that, but the cars are nowhere to be seen. Teslas are here and now, and without them, neither the Taycan or the e-tron would likely exist.

    The reality of the e-tron is that it was announced at the same time as the Taycan back in 2015. The e-tron is in my honest opinion not a terribly competitive offering relative to Teslas as far as normal commuting cars goes, which is what the e-tron is. It's not doing anything new in the space and lags behind in the biggest trends like autonomy. I'd also question why it weighs so much given its size. There is a lot about the e-tron that is underwhelming given it's debut in 2019.

    So far Porsche hasn't let anyone drive the Taycan, they haven't announced the specs, and the car remains in heavy camo. I think it's fair to be skeptical since VAG definitely isn't going to tackle the extremely expensive transition to BEVs without heavily sharing the technology across all brands. If the e-tron isn't amazing, I'm not sure where the Taycan will fit in and I'm especially concerned you'll need the highest trim model for it to be competitive on a highway or passing. After all, a $50K Model 3 is doing 0-60 in 3.2s. Would people be disappointed if the entry-level Taycan is slower?

     


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    Mithras:

    Tesla discussion is going to get banned just like Politics was and for the same reason. People here can't shift from their overwhelming biases, can't understand other views or acknowledge them as even remotely reasonable. 

    You want to know why so many people leave this forum? Because only Black or White is allowed, there is not middle ground allowed. And once the majority come down on either Black or White the other side is ridiculed and driven out. Grey is NEVER allowed. Has to be one pole or the other. God help you if you like the loosing team.

    You are wrong on this one... This forum is called rennteam. The name indicates it is not a forum to discuss middle class cars. Of course, it is fine if some discussions also focus on non-core topics. But people will get bored if they have to read pages full of text on Tesla and other middle class car brands.


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    keithw:

     

    I didn't realize this forum was only for high-end cars, but aren't both Porsches and Teslas are high-end? Many Teslas are just as expensive or more expensive that Porsches. Maybe they aren't high-end in a traditional sense, but the technology is not cheap and it's usually cutting edge in the segment. I think Autopilot is a high-end feature. I think the S P100D acceleration is high-end. The money in Teslas goes towards different things than traditional ICEs.

     

    Indeed, neither a Tesla nor an etron audi is high-end. These are middle class cars. Nothing that could be considered core for Rennteam.


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    MKSGR:
    Mithras:

    Tesla discussion is going to get banned just like Politics was and for the same reason. People here can't shift from their overwhelming biases, can't understand other views or acknowledge them as even remotely reasonable. 

    You want to know why so many people leave this forum? Because only Black or White is allowed, there is not middle ground allowed. And once the majority come down on either Black or White the other side is ridiculed and driven out. Grey is NEVER allowed. Has to be one pole or the other. God help you if you like the loosing team.

    You are wrong on this one... This forum is called rennteam. The name indicates it is not a forum to discuss middle class cars. Of course, it is fine if some discussions also focus on non-core topics. But people will get bored if they have to read pages full of text on Tesla and other middle class car brands.

    +1 here


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    keithw:

    Sorry, I didn't mean to offend. I'm not sure what you mean by intended misspelling. It's easier to type without the hyphen and I honestly wasn't sure if things were capitalized or not off hand. Etron, etron, E-tron, e-tron... I don't think anyone would confuse them in the context like when people type M3 for Model 3 vs BMW M3. Audi tags it #etron on social media, so how bad could it be?

    Hi keithw, I think he was referring to the fact that "étron" actually means "shit/turd" in french, I know AUDI dropped the ball naming this carSmiley, but has been used to poke fun at the car by writing etron instead of e-tron. Don't worry we kn ow it was unintentional on your part Smiley

    I didn't realize this forum was only for high-end cars, but aren't both Porsches and Teslas are high-end? Many Teslas are just as expensive or more expensive that Porsches. Maybe they aren't high-end in a traditional sense, but the technology is not cheap and it's usually cutting edge in the segment. I think Autopilot is a high-end feature. I think the S P100D acceleration is high-end. The money in Teslas goes towards different things than traditional ICEs.

    Most of the people in this forum are first and foremost high-end sportscar fans, so place most comments you read here on that context, and Porsche's products as well. For example, you mention autopilot for example as being something important in these cars, but in reality for most people here, and presumably most Taycan customers, it is not a priority, we don't want to be driven around but rather enjoy driving the car ourselves and its sportiness. So Porsche is not going to focus on autopilot as a priority for the Taycan, they are more focused on realworld performance, handling, driving experience, the braking, etc and all that Porsche DNA.


    --

    ⇒ Carlos - Porsche 991 Carrera GTS


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    ALDO:
    Mithras:

    Tesla discussion is going to get banned just like Politics was and for the same reason. People here can't shift from their overwhelming biases, can't understand other views or acknowledge them as even remotely reasonable. 

    You want to know why so many people leave this forum? Because only Black or White is allowed, there is not middle ground allowed. And once the majority come down on either Black or White the other side is ridiculed and driven out. Grey is NEVER allowed. Has to be one pole or the other. God help you if you like the loosing team.

    Sadly, but true!

    +1


    --

    2017 991.2 Carrera 4 GTS | GT Silver Metallic - The GT3 Killah!
    2013 Audi S3 | Glacier White


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    Sorry having too much fun at the Ring with my GT2RS to post much or reply in detail. 

    But Kiethw missed an important point. 

    Autopilot, from Tesla is NOT actually autopilot, it's just a gimmick for a more advanced version of cruise control, nothing more and nothing less. But it's a shit system, who th ehell in the right mind would want such a dumb system that has more confirmed kill of the drivers than a F35 fighter jet, a war machine. 

    Audi is smart to not include nay of those ballast in their etron, a EV is heavy enough. 

     

     


    --

     

     


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    Just yesterday I was coming home from work from another city 100 miles away, cruising at 160 along the long winding curves in the highway, with some faster spurts in no traffic stints, and in the heavier traffic bits with the left lane sometimes occupied then dropping gears and as the car leaves the left lane accelerating again too overtake enjoying the roar of the engine, over and over, ... The drive went by in no time and I was precisely thinking what a torture it would be to sit at a constant monotonous 120 in autopilot not doing anything just sitting there as the never-ending minutes went by, I bet it would push me to cut my veins and slowly bleed to death before I would reach home...


    --

    ⇒ Carlos - Porsche 991 Carrera GTS


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    Carlos from Spain:

    Just yesterday I was coming home from work from another city 100 miles away, cruising at 160 along the long winding curves in the highway, with some faster spurts in no traffic stints, and in the heavier traffic bits with the left lane sometimes occupied then dropping gears and as the car leaves the left lane accelerating again too overtake enjoying the roar of the engine, over and over, ... The drive went by in no time and I was precisely thinking what a torture it would be to sit at a constant monotonous 120 in autopilot not doing anything just sitting there as the never-ending minutes went by, I bet it would push me to cut my veins and slowly bleed to death before I would reach home...

    SmileySmileySmiley


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    MKSGR:
    Carlos from Spain:

    Just yesterday I was coming home from work from another city 100 miles away, cruising at 160 along the long winding curves in the highway, with some faster spurts in no traffic stints, and in the heavier traffic bits with the left lane sometimes occupied then dropping gears and as the car leaves the left lane accelerating again too overtake enjoying the roar of the engine, over and over, ... The drive went by in no time and I was precisely thinking what a torture it would be to sit at a constant monotonous 120 in autopilot not doing anything just sitting there as the never-ending minutes went by, I bet it would push me to cut my veins and slowly bleed to death before I would reach home...

    SmileySmileySmiley

    Great story.  I too have found a few nice parcels of roads for my drive between my two places as road construction is disrupting the most direct route.  Not sure why I wasn't aware of one stretch of road before but I found an incredibly hilly and twisty road for several miles. This is in Northern Indiana which typically is extremely flat; however, there are a few sections of moraines left from the glaciers of the last Ice Age and those areas have some entertaining roads.  I can travel unimpeded by any traffic for roughly 20 miles of my 100 trip.  Once I merge on to the Interstate, the general flow of traffic is a quick-for the U.S.-130 to 140 km/h flow.  


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    **** DELETED - INAPPROPRIATE *** 

    I am 100% car guy and have owned nothing but Porsche 911s all my life.  I’m thrilled to hear about Tesla and I concur that the Audi has a nice interior and is lacking in every other important aspect. Range, speed, tech, weight, price. My expert car mind tells me it is a loser. It takes a lot of kool aid to think otherwise but I get that banning opinions to the contrary helps a lot. Cheers


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    I have no problem with people enjoying their Tesla.  Freedom of choice is good.

    I will never own a Tesla as it does not excite me at all.

    Coming onto the Porsche Mission E thread and majority of content is Tesla related is total f--king bullshits to me.  I do not give a shit at all about Tesla.  Don't make me waste time reading about it.  Period.


    --

    Tim

    2010 997.2 GT3RS;  2008 Cayenne Turbo;  2006 911 Club Coupe;  2016 911 GTS Club Coupe;  2015 Macan S
     


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    No more straying off topic. Lol. I guess anytime you open you eyes you may find yourself wasting time seeing things of no interest. Hilariously your reaction to this is worse than my reaction to banning speech. Let us leave it at that. 


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    bluelines:
    ALDO:
    Mithras:

    Tesla discussion is going to get banned just like Politics was and for the same reason. People here can't shift from their overwhelming biases, can't understand other views or acknowledge them as even remotely reasonable. 

    You want to know why so many people leave this forum? Because only Black or White is allowed, there is not middle ground allowed. And once the majority come down on either Black or White the other side is ridiculed and driven out. Grey is NEVER allowed. Has to be one pole or the other. God help you if you like the loosing team.

    Sadly, but true!

    +1

    +2

    Probably time for me to quit this thread and the Tesla one before it gets out of hands, and maybe even RT all together.

    This place is filled with blind people to the future of automobiles hanging on to cars that will be banned in the next decade and drive safely but way beyond the speed they should on public roads. Sadly many of them are either moderators or big influencers here. The others have vested interests to defend German manufacturers or are simply anti Tesla for personal reasons or even financial ones. All currents arguments have been written, no one will convince the other side.

    Saying over and over Tesla are shit cars is simply blindsided and an offense to the many members here who own one, especially when they have zero interest in an EV nor would want to own one.


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    Leawood911:

    I am 100% car guy and have owned nothing but Porsche 911s all my life.  I’m thrilled to hear about Tesla and I concur that the Audi has a nice interior and is lacking in every other important aspect. Range, speed, tech, weight, price. My expert car mind tells me it is a loser. It takes a lot of kool aid to think otherwise but I get that banning opinions to the contrary helps a lot. Cheers

    Very simple: not your decision. Also: last warning. Refrain from posting stuff like the above. This is not acceptable here.

     


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    Leawood911:

    No more straying off topic. Lol. I guess anytime you open you eyes you may find yourself wasting time seeing things of no interest. Hilariously your reaction to this is worse than my reaction to banning speech. Let us leave it at that. 

    This pseudo religous speech is really turning me off. Get back to earth.


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    I have absolutely no idea what is going on here...


     
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