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    need imput on exhaust and power upgrade

     Hey guys 

    I havent been around in a while and I really appreciate the advise I have gotten here in the past it has been spot on. I recently bought a 08 TT cab that was porsche certified and so I have a full 4 year warranty. The car is a serious upgrade from my 06 S cab but as many of u would agree the sound needs to improve. I have decided on tubi exhaust but for 5k it seams a lot for mainly just sound. I am considering a stage 1 upgrade through sharkwerks in fremont california which consists on EVOMSit ECU tune and a pair of boost recirculation valves for 3k more. So for 8K I will have the sound and close to 600hp which now seams to be well worth the money. I have read through the threads and have done some research myself. I know about the warranty issues and I have been told by service managers that no matter what you do they will be able to tell the car has been chipped. I have also been told that if an engine problem arises I will be screwed unless they can "find" another reason for the problem. I am willing to take the risk as long as I feel the risk is small and the gains are huge. From what I gather I haven't heard of a lot of issues related to ECU upgrades particularly with EVOMS and GIAC set ups. I am wondering what your thoughts are on the advantages of the upgrade and any problems that have arisen.  I am also interested to know if anything else needs to be done to handle the added horses.  I am set to have the exhaust installed this friday 5/14 and will have the stage 1 upgrade at the same time if I decide to do so. Thanks in advance.

     


    Re: need imput on exhaust and power upgrade

    Hi there. It appears you've done your research well; EVOMS and Tubi are both top level products well liked by many, and Tubi is the exhaust often recommended for convertibles because it's a relative quiet exhaust. Your car will in fact be exactly like Stradale's here, and I believe he loves the 2 mods. A few points to add:

    1. The exhaust is not just for sound. It's critical to reduce back pressure when you tune an ECU, and the way to do this is with after-market exhausts. The stock 997.1 Turbo exhaust uses 600 cell cat, Tubi (and others) uses 200 cell cat, thereby reducing the back pressure. (Incidentally, the new 997.2 Turbo uses 400 cell cat.)
    In fact, most tuners do not recommend tuning ECU without changing exhaust, so consider the better sound an added bonus.

    2. I assume you have had a live audition of the Tubi exhaust? i.e. Listen to the actual exhaust, and not just sound clips on the web? Chances are you will love the Tubi, but still... it's important to take a listen to make sure loudness is adequate and sound character what you're looking for.

    3. Risk? 99.9 % safety margin for Tubi, 99% for EVOMS stage 2 (exhaust and ECU). :-) Basically, IMHO you're safe.

    4. Although a lot of people do both upgrades at the same time without any problem, I would recommend that you do it in 2 steps, first the exhaust, wait a few weeks, then the ECU. Reasons:
    a. If there is any problem (1% chance :-)), you would like to be able to isolate which one, exhaust vs. ECU, is causing which.The dreaded "check engine light" is a potential complication with either of these mods. You could isolate problem with PIWIS, but still, I prefer caution.
    b. Besides my car, there are 2 other cars that I know of, one with Milltek, the other I can't reveal since it's in PM, that have had some noise problem, that has an EVOMS tune. I think the problem is not with EVOMS, but possibly the ears of the owners Smiley (kidding there), or some strange interaction in the particular car. Nevertheless, if there is one, you would like to isolate it where it comes from. Therefore it's critical to do tune separate from exhaust.
    c. It's a lot of fun to isolate what each mod does and learn for yourself. The exhaust will do something to the car, the ECU another. Golden opportunity to learn for yourself!

    5. Anything else needs to be done? With more power, you might want to stiffen the car's suspension to prevent excessive weight transfer (squatting and body roll) with the added power, if this bothers you. The stock Turbo is a very soft car and the added power may cause bothersome. How to do stifffen? Click the Bilstein link in my signature.

    Hope this helps. Good luck and have fun.


    --

    Regards,
    Can
    997 Turbo + Bilstein Damptronic "Stage 2" ( Review ) + GIAC ECU Tune ( Fast as a torpedo & reversible to stock - Review ) + Cargraphic Exhaust ( Oh heavenly noise! )


    Re: need imput on exhaust and power upgrade

    Hey Can

    Thanks for the advise. I really appreciate it. It makes good sense to do the exhaust and chip mod seperately. Because I have been disappointed on power gains in the past with mods like exhaust, perhaps I am a bit tainted. The 200 cell cats should definitely make a difference and doing this first will allow me to see just how much of a difference it will be prior to the chip mod. I am glad to hear that in your  opinion that the ECU mod will be relatively safe as well. Thanks again

    BTW been a diehard Laker fan for 35+ years Go Purple and Gold!


    Re: need imput on exhaust and power upgrade

    You're very welcome Kevin. I believe firmly in isolating the variables, hence, one change at a time for any mod, whether it's ECU, or exhaust, or suspension. Your comment on exhaust is spot on. Past posted experience indicates one shouldn't expect to *feel* any power gain out of the exhaust. There have even been anecdotal reports of loss of low end torque in the low rpm range, subjective and objective (different days dynos). As an example, all I felt with my Cargraphic is a subjective sense that the spool up  before 3000 rpm is faster; I was actually happy that the car didn't feel weaker.

    It's for all these reasons that you really want to do the mods in steps. The more time in between the more you will remember what "old" feels like and be more confident in recognizing if there is any problem with "new." In particular with the ECU, everyone (including me :-)) thinks his is the best, but there might be glitches that people don't talk about. Before and after you tune the ECU, do a few runs up to 7000 rpm and note the power delivery, whether it's smooth, if there is any hesitation, how the torque delivery is (smooth vs. peaky). I believe the top US tuners, at least EVOMS and GIAC, have a 30 day full refund policy, so if there is something you don't like, find out about it early. Good luck and have fun.

    OT Lakers: Finally they're playing! I think oldie but goodie D Fish drink some magic *youth* potion!

     


    --
     

    Regards,
    Can
    997 Turbo + Bilstein Damptronic "Stage 2" ( Review ) + GIAC ECU Tune ( Fast as a torpedo & reversible to stock - Review ) + Cargraphic Exhaust ( Oh heavenly noise! )


    Re: need imput on exhaust and power upgrade

    That was surreal.

    I am thinking about a mod. upgrade, did a search on RT for EVOMS & IC'ers & ran into this year old thread of  kevinm's. Reading Kevin's first post was weird because it's exactly the road I was/am on except now I'm considering the next stage/s ,,,,,,,,,,,,. he says “I havent been around in a while”, then mentions going from his 997 S Cab to the Turbo Cab (I did the same) & thinking about a EVOMS tune, tubi exhaust…  And then you mentioned my car, you’re right both Turbo Cab’s EVOMS stage 2 & tubi…... It was funny……….. How did the install go Kevin???

    Cann - Back last year I had followed your advise & did your option above "4"…….  So again my car : Turbo Cab, Tubi exhaust (1st gen), IPD, Champion wheels/stock suspension, EVOMS stage 2 EVT580 w/ Boost Recirculation Valves  (done at my Porsche dealer) … Was a HUGE difference after the tune.  Last year I had the Stage 2 done when I brought my car in for the routine annual service so I need to bring it back in a couple of months for the next oil change/service & I want some of that feeling I got last year when I picked it up after the tune…. I'm not thinking EVT700 so the difference will not be as dramatic but thinking it over. I really didn’t want to change the clutch & EVOMS mentions increased noise in the cabin for some of the clutches & increased pedal pressure needed ie): “This clutch conversion will transmit slightly more transmission noise into the cabin of the car. At idle speeds, there is a rattle sound that can be heard which is transmission noise that is typically absorbed by the OEM dual mass flywheel.”

    So what’s the most up to date opinions on the next level in tuning possibilities???

    What’s the differences - EVT620 vs. EVT650????? (besides 30hp lol!) If I go up to 620 vs. 650 will I likely need a clutch?????? If so which clutch?????

    EVT620:

    http://www.evoms.com/marketplace/ViewProduct.asp?Now=7%2F26%2F2011+7%3A40%3A02+AM&ProductID={4D460F37-EC6C-4CD7-83CD-DC784B30073F}&OrgID={CA5E16BC-D877-4137-8237-7EB9084DD3D8}&ParentID={40D50AB4-D844-40CE-97A1-1675CBDC88BE}&Curr={40D50AB4-D844-40CE-97A1-1675CBDC88BE}

    EVT650:

     http://www.evoms.com/marketplace/ViewProduct.asp?Now=7%2F26%2F2011+7%3A40%3A02+AM&ProductID={1A8BB8F4-BCB6-4B2D-9112-2CA32EE1CAB9}&OrgID={CA5E16BC-D877-4137-8237-7EB9084DD3D8}&ParentID={40D50AB4-D844-40CE-97A1-1675CBDC88BE}&Curr={40D50AB4-D844-40CE-97A1-1675CBDC88BE}

    It looks like EVOMS has 3 different size headers based on performance levels….. 1)EVOMS ClubSport Headers 500-600hp SKU:EDH-97-75 2)EVOMS ClubSport Headers 600-650hp SKU:EDH-97-65 3) EVOMS ClubSport Headers 650-750hp SKU:EDH-97-60

    But if you look at the page where they list the entire kits they all have the same ClubSport 44.5mm Exhaust Headers listed so what do I need to know?????

    http://www.evoms.com/marketplace/Marketplace.asp?Now=7%2F26%2F2011+7%3A39%3A58+AM&ParentID={40D50AB4-D844-40CE-97A1-1675CBDC88BE}&Curr={40D50AB4-D844-40CE-97A1-1675CBDC88BE}

    I believe EVOMS has free power upgrades for 5 years so guess I just need the 620 or 650 tune, the IC'ers, tubes & headers?????????…..The work will be done again at my dealer; Legend Porsche. The owner I’ve known for 9 years/bought my last 3 911’s from Michael & the service manager Anthony is excellent; a car guy like us, he genuinely gets excited about these mods so I will speak w/ him but thought I could use help first from RT’ers… Cann - I know you will probably rec. suspension, I hesitate because I use the car daily & commute from Long Island through Queens, The Bronx up to Westchester & already have to be careful w/ clearance. 

    Didn’t think a new thread was necessary so even though this thread was started by Kevin would appreciate anyone’s/everyone’s feedback on basically the same topic…   

    Thanks!


    --

    08 PORSCHE Turbo Cabriolet - 06 Ferrari F430 - 04 Durango HEMI - 04 Harley Davidson Screamin Eagle - 93 Harley Davidson Nostalgia


    Re: need imput on exhaust and power upgrade

    Hi Gregg, I don't consider myself an expert on this, so please take with a grain of salt. Just to review, people use different terms, but the 4 basic stages IMO:
    1. ECU
    2. ECU + high flow exhaust
    3. ECU + high flow exhaust + intercooler (+/- header if tuner recommends it - EVOMS does)
    4. ECU + high flow exhaust + intercooler + header + larger Turbo
    So where you are now is number 2 & next level up is adding an intercooler. After the exhaust, an intercooler is without question the next big upgrade. On the other hand, the header is a controversial topic: Header design is flow related and extremely complicated, much more complicated than I thought, as in merely adding bigger tubings with smoother path, etc.. Headers that increase high rpm power could decrease power at lower rpm, and therefore is probably not recommended for either lower power application, or unless the tuner recommends it and tunes the program USING it. In your case, it's a yes because obviously the EVOMS tune is done with its header in the system.
    Between the 2 kits, 620 versus 650, I believe the difference is NOT the header, but larger exhaust on the 650 kit. In addition, 650 kit has after-market silicone air inlet duct for the turbocharger. Because your exhaust is not EVOMS, but Tubi, it would appear to me the kit you would have is the 620. You probably want to talk to Todd about this.

    Clutch: YES if the tuner is any good you WILL need Sachs clutch at stage 3 and above. Actually, my stage 2 car slips whenever it's cold or when the darn tuner test drove it like he had just robbed a bank or something. I have a table of exactly which clutch part number to get somewhere; let me look and I'll post it later. Basically it's a Sachs clutch with a higher rated pressure plate.

    A couple other things I'd like to add:
    Suspension: Suspension and power interact, so you might want to keep this in mind too as the power of your car is now getting to an out-of-control level. Smiley As the car gains power, suspension might need some stiffening to reduce issues such as the squatting under acceleration, and the body roll in corners - you are now more liable to take them with higher speed.
    Reliability: Lastly, I am sure you already know, as you add more things, "things" tend to happen. The ECU+exhaust upgrade is fool proof as we all know. At higher power level, from my reading, mishaps do tend to happen more, the most common is probably tubings/connectins coming loose.


    --
     

    Regards,
    Can
    997 Turbo + Bilstein Damptronic "Stage 2" ( Review ) + GIAC ECU Custom Tune ( Fast as a torpedo & reversible to stock - Review ) + Cargraphic Exhaust ( Oh heavenly noise! )


    Re: need imput on exhaust and power upgrade

    kevinm:

     Hey guys 

    I havent been around in a while and I really appreciate the advise I have gotten here in the past it has been spot on. I recently bought a 08 TT cab that was porsche certified and so I have a full 4 year warranty. The car is a serious upgrade from my 06 S cab but as many of u would agree the sound needs to improve. I have decided on tubi exhaust but for 5k it seams a lot for mainly just sound. I am considering a stage 1 upgrade through sharkwerks in fremont california which consists on EVOMSit ECU tune and a pair of boost recirculation valves for 3k more. So for 8K I will have the sound and close to 600hp which now seams to be well worth the money. I have read through the threads and have done some research myself. I know about the warranty issues and I have been told by service managers that no matter what you do they will be able to tell the car has been chipped. I have also been told that if an engine problem arises I will be screwed unless they can "find" another reason for the problem. I am willing to take the risk as long as I feel the risk is small and the gains are huge. From what I gather I haven't heard of a lot of issues related to ECU upgrades particularly with EVOMS and GIAC set ups. I am wondering what your thoughts are on the advantages of the upgrade and any problems that have arisen.  I am also interested to know if anything else needs to be done to handle the added horses.  I am set to have the exhaust installed this friday 5/14 and will have the stage 1 upgrade at the same time if I decide to do so. Thanks in advance.

     

     

    0-60 mph acceleration time is hardly improved, you feel a difference from 100 mph and over, mostly in the over 120 mph speed range.

    When did you drive over 100 mph lately ?

    Maybe this should answer your question regarding taking the risk or not. 

    Do yourself a favor, get a good quality exhaust (yes, good quality exhausts are expensive, they also include new high flow cats but be careful with 100 cell cats due to software glitches) and enjoy the enhanced sound. In the US (sorry to say that), power upgrades are absolutely worthless, unless of course you drag race your car.  Smiley

    I know that many owners of tuned 997 Turbo don't want to hear that but... Smiley

    Unless of course money isn't really of importance... Smiley

    As to suspension mods on a 997 Cab: Stay away from them. They can change the rigidity of the car and influence the roof mechanism. Not worth it.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 997 Turbo, BMW X5M, BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S Countryman All4


    Re: need imput on exhaust and power upgrade

    RC:

     

     

    0-60 mph acceleration time is hardly improved, you feel a difference from 100 mph and over, mostly in the over 120 mph speed range.

    When did you drive over 100 mph lately ?

    Maybe this should answer your question regarding taking the risk or not. 

    Do yourself a favor, get a good quality exhaust (yes, good quality exhausts are expensive, they also include new high flow cats but be careful with 100 cell cats due to software glitches) and enjoy the enhanced sound. In the US (sorry to say that), power upgrades are absolutely worthless, unless of course you drag race your car.  Smiley

    I know that many owners of tuned 997 Turbo don't want to hear that but... Smiley

    Unless of course money isn't really of importance... Smiley

    As to suspension mods on a 997 Cab: Stay away from them. They can change the rigidity of the car and influence the roof mechanism. Not worth it.



    >you feel a difference from 100 mph and over, mostly in the over 120 mph speed range.
    Hello RC, if this is your personal direct experience, you need to fire the tuner of that car. If this is second hand information, you need to fire that advisor. Instantly.
    Subjectively, there is a significant and noticeable difference very early on around 30 mph, second gear and up. I am in a unique position to evaluate this because my car switches back and forth between tune and stock mode at the push of a button. The test is done daily and it's as sure as the sky as blue. And I am not the only one who notices a difference - just in a unique position to do so.
    Objectivelyhttp://www.6speedonline.com/forums/996-turbo-gt2/55163-6speedonlines-official-60-130-1-4-mile-standing-mile-list.html

    >As to suspension mods on a 997 Cab: Stay away from them. They can change the rigidity of the car and influence the roof mechanism. Not worth it.
    Very interesting. But... I notice you wrote "can," not "does." Sounds like rumor, or Is this based on actual experience? If so, which car, what was done, and did a roof mechanism actually failed? If it did, how was the cause determined to be suspension related? I've read literally hundreds, if not thousands of actual users' experiences on suspension mods and this is first I hear of this. 


    --

    Regards,
    Can
    997 Turbo + Bilstein Damptronic "Stage 2" ( Review ) + GIAC ECU Custom Tune ( Fast as a torpedo & reversible to stock - Review ) + Cargraphic Exhaust ( Oh heavenly noise! )


    Re: need imput on exhaust and power upgrade

    cannga:
    RC:

     

     

    0-60 mph acceleration time is hardly improved, you feel a difference from 100 mph and over, mostly in the over 120 mph speed range.

    When did you drive over 100 mph lately ?

    Maybe this should answer your question regarding taking the risk or not. 

    Do yourself a favor, get a good quality exhaust (yes, good quality exhausts are expensive, they also include new high flow cats but be careful with 100 cell cats due to software glitches) and enjoy the enhanced sound. In the US (sorry to say that), power upgrades are absolutely worthless, unless of course you drag race your car.  Smiley

    I know that many owners of tuned 997 Turbo don't want to hear that but... Smiley

    Unless of course money isn't really of importance... Smiley

    As to suspension mods on a 997 Cab: Stay away from them. They can change the rigidity of the car and influence the roof mechanism. Not worth it.



    >you feel a difference from 100 mph and over, mostly in the over 120 mph speed range.
    Hello RC, if this is your personal direct experience, you need to fire the tuner of that car. If this is second hand information, you need to fire that advisor. Instantly.
    Subjectively, there is a significant and noticeable difference very early on around 30 mph, second gear and up. I am in a unique position to evaluate this because my car switches back and forth between tune and stock mode at the push of a button. The test is done daily and it's as sure as the sky as blue. And I am not the only one who notices a difference - just in a unique position to do so.
    Objectivelyhttp://www.6speedonline.com/forums/996-turbo-gt2/55163-6speedonlines-official-60-130-1-4-mile-standing-mile-list.html

    >As to suspension mods on a 997 Cab: Stay away from them. They can change the rigidity of the car and influence the roof mechanism. Not worth it.
    Very interesting. But... I notice you wrote "can," not "does." Sounds like rumor, or Is this based on actual experience? If so, which car, what was done, and did a roof mechanism actually failed? If it did, how was the cause determined to be suspension related? I've read literally hundreds, if not thousands of actual users' experiences on suspension mods and this is first I hear of this. 


    --

    Regards,
    Can
    997 Turbo + Bilstein Damptronic "Stage 2" ( Review ) + GIAC ECU Custom Tune ( Fast as a torpedo & reversible to stock - Review ) + Cargraphic Exhaust ( Oh heavenly noise! )

     

    Fire the tuner is right. That was weird reading RC's post.

    "When did you drive over 100 mph lately ?" - He must mean 200?? lol!! Heck 100mph is a jab of the throttle, ESPECIALLY w/ a tune.  Days like today where I knew it was going to be Cab weather I left for the office before traffic & without being too specific you can easily top 100mph in NY METRO, without any danger to other vehicles. On roads outside NY Metro, headed upstate that I frequent, the highways open waaaayyy up, miles & miles of open, straight highway...  It's REALLY hard NOT TO go over 100mph..... RC- You don't take your Turbo over 100mph??

    "power upgrades are absolutely worthless, unless of course you drag race your car." - huh???

    I wasn't 2 miles from my dealer after the tune that the difference from stock w/ exhaust (had the car for 2 yrs like this) to the 580 put a sh.t eating grin on my face so wide I thought it was going to get stuck like that. It was worth every penny, in fact since I already had the exhaust, it was cheap! Compared to other mods it's not even a question.  Knowing what I know now, it's worth 4 to 5 times as much imo....  I would say the 2 things that I would least want to give up on my car would be the PCCB's & the tune. And the difference up to 100mph is significant, everything from seat of the pants feeling to throttle response is greatly improved...  Even as a passenger the improvement is noticeable.....Besides the autobahn power upgrades are much more suited to some of the wide open roads in much of the US then in Europe, so it's actually the opposite. 

    To be honest, I can totally still feel the difference of the tune & it's 1 year later. Truth is though it's made such a difference that I want more.

    Would be interested in info modded suspensions on Turbo Cab's though RC, if you can help w/ that info. would be great. 

    --

    08 PORSCHE Turbo Cabriolet - 06 Ferrari F430 - 04 Durango HEMI - 04 Harley Davidson Screamin Eagle - 93 Harley Davidson Nostalgia


    Re: need imput on exhaust and power upgrade

    cannga:

    Hi Gregg, I don't consider myself an expert on this, so please take with a grain of salt. Just to review, people use different terms, but the 4 basic stages IMO:
    1. ECU
    2. ECU + high flow exhaust
    3. ECU + high flow exhaust + intercooler (+/- header if tuner recommends it - EVOMS does)
    4. ECU + high flow exhaust + intercooler + header + larger Turbo
    So where you are now is number 2 & next level up is adding an intercooler. After the exhaust, an intercooler is without question the next big upgrade. On the other hand, the header is a controversial topic: Header design is flow related and extremely complicated, much more complicated than I thought, as in merely adding bigger tubings with smoother path, etc.. Headers that increase high rpm power could decrease power at lower rpm, and therefore is probably not recommended for either lower power application, or unless the tuner recommends it and tunes the program USING it. In your case, it's a yes because obviously the EVOMS tune is done with its header in the system.
    Between the 2 kits, 620 versus 650, I believe the difference is NOT the header, but larger exhaust on the 650 kit. In addition, 650 kit has after-market silicone air inlet duct for the turbocharger. Because your exhaust is not EVOMS, but Tubi, it would appear to me the kit you would have is the 620. You probably want to talk to Todd about this.

    Clutch: YES if the tuner is any good you WILL need Sachs clutch at stage 3 and above. Actually, my stage 2 car slips whenever it's cold or when the darn tuner test drove it like he had just robbed a bank or something. I have a table of exactly which clutch part number to get somewhere; let me look and I'll post it later. Basically it's a Sachs clutch with a higher rated pressure plate.

    A couple other things I'd like to add:
    Suspension: Suspension and power interact, so you might want to keep this in mind too as the power of your car is now getting to an out-of-control level. Smiley As the car gains power, suspension might need some stiffening to reduce issues such as the squatting under acceleration, and the body roll in corners - you are now more liable to take them with higher speed.
    Reliability: Lastly, I am sure you already know, as you add more things, "things" tend to happen. The ECU+exhaust upgrade is fool proof as we all know. At higher power level, from my reading, mishaps do tend to happen more, the most common is probably tubings/connectins coming loose.

     

     

    TAHNKS Cann - Appreciate it very much.

    So 3. is where I was thinking...

    I might have to do some research on the tubi. I remember when I first purchased it I had the opportunity to look at/pick up in my hands the fabspeed (which I think EVOMS uses, not sure which size it was ) and the Tubi. Besides being all fully welded the Tubi definitely appeared larger in tube diameter but I can't be sure, it was over 3 yrs ago.  But I should talk to Todd about this..

    I had a feeling you were going to say I would need a clutch, I'll have to give this more thought, I hadn't wanted to go that route. There are times where I can get stuck in really bad traffic, increased pedal pressure could be a bummer.  Do you have any of the increased cabin noise w/ the clutch that EVOMS mentions, or no??

    Is there a suspension set-up that doesn't lower the car? Assume not but thought I'd ask.

    Dunno, there are some negatives w/ going above stage 2 that I'll have to think about, I'm very happy w/ the car now,   I just got home from my 25 mile commute, traffic wasn't bad today, had the top down the whole time, love that feeling when the car shoots off in 3rd or 4th when it's in the thick of the power band like being shot from a slingshot;  whooooooossssshhh!!!  GONE! Still enjoy the car very much,, in fact, I know I say this to my wife w/ every car but I think I'm keeping this one,,,,  maybe I shouldn't mess w/ it,,, we'll see... Thanks again.


    --

    08 PORSCHE Turbo Cabriolet - 06 Ferrari F430 - 04 Durango HEMI - 04 Harley Davidson Screamin Eagle - 93 Harley Davidson Nostalgia


    Re: need imput on exhaust and power upgrade

    Stradale

    I only added the tubi exhaust at that time for two reasons. One, to see what the car felt like after adding the exhaust and also because of having 3 years left on warranty. The sound was a great improvement and for a cab the tubi was not too loud with to top down. Very happy with it...as for power nothing noticable. I am thinking of tuning it with EVOMSit software and boost recirculating valves through Sharkwerks in San Jose. I was wondering what the difference felt like and well you guys just answered that question.  I was wondering if there has been any flywheel slip?


    Re: need imput on exhaust and power upgrade

    Funny posts, really. I have numbers, not feelings. 

    Driving 200 mph in  the US on a public street ? I won't comment on that.

    Track driving ? Since when does power matter ? I can outrun any tuned 997 Turbo on a tight track with a GT3 and the right chassis/tire setup. I also wouldn't track race a Cab, this would get one over here in Germany some good laughs.

    Sorry guys but I rather think that you fell for tuner talk and passion, not real numbers (which reminds me a little bit of Stradale's posts in the debt ceiling discussion... ).

     


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 997 Turbo, BMW X5M, BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S Countryman All4


    Re: need imput on exhaust and power upgrade

    RC:

    Funny posts, really. I have numbers, not feelings. 

    Driving 200 mph in  the US on a public street ? I won't comment on that.

    Track driving ? Since when does power matter ? I can outrun any tuned 997 Turbo on a tight track with a GT3 and the right chassis/tire setup. I also wouldn't track race a Cab, this would get one over here in Germany some good laughs.

    Sorry guys but I rather think that you fell for tuner talk and passion, not real numbers (which reminds me a little bit of Stradale's posts in the debt ceiling discussion... ).

     

    RC, I don't believe anyone here is talking about racing 200 mph on streets, or whether Cab is made for the track (OTOH, if someone races a Boxster, or Miata, or convertible 911, I wouldn't "laugh" either. None of my business to judge others' enjoyment.)
    Yes power does matter, on equal suspension, more powerful car will win.  GT2 vs. GT3, more powerful Turbo versus less powerful Turbo, etc. Orange to orange comparison means you have to hold variables other than power (suspension, tire, driver, etc.) constant, right?

    But we are getting sidetracked. My initial response was really to your 2 points, which surprised me quite a bit, and which I am still asking you for the hard data to back it up:
    1. Tuning doesn't make a difference below 100mph (Yes it does, subjectively and objectively.)
    2. Stiffer suspension causing problem with roof mechanism (Never heard of it.)

    Tuners' talk? Hardly. Which part of the V Box proven numbers below is "talk"? And which part says it's above 200mph? Smiley
    http://www.6speedonline.com/forums/996-turbo-gt2/55163-6speedonlines-official-60-130-1-4-mile-standing-mile-list.html
    60 -130 mph (96.5-209.2 kph):
    3.96 - KPG / RWD / 0-shifts
    4.14 - Keithta / 997TT AWD / 1-shift
    4.25 - dk996tt / 997TT AWD / 1-shift (stock internals)
    4.25 - art4iza / RWD / 0-shifts
    4.43 - edelectra / 997TT AWD / 1-shift (stock internals)
    4.62 - Markski / RWD / 2-shifts
    4.67 - Divexxtreme / RWD 996TT / 2-shifts
    4.81 - Joetwint / RWD / 2-shifts
    4.85 - topgun / AWD / 2-shifts
    4.89 - Powell / AWD / 1-shift (stock internals)
    4.95 - Divexxtreme / GT2 / 2-shifts
    4.97 - Besiktas / 997TT AWD TIP (stock internals)
    5.18 - Chris Green / RWD / 1-shift (stock internals)
    5.23 - WhiteKnight / 997TT AWD TIP (stock internals)
    5.44 - gtovan / 997 GT2 / 1-shift (stock internals)
    5.50 - KerCar / 997TT TIP (stock internals)
    5.54 - uaeturbo / 997TT AWD TIP
    5.54 - MBailey / RWD / 0-shifts (stock internals)
    5.55 - AtomicZ / GT2 / 1-shift (stock internals)
    5.64 - EVOMS / RWD / 2-shifts
    5.73 - bmoores / RWD / 1-shift (stock internals)
    5.74 - Palette / AWD / 1-shift (stock internals)
    5.75 - evoviiiyou / 997TT AWD / 1-shift (stock internals)
    5.79 - Dr Jitsu / GT2 / 1-shift (stock internals)
    5.86 - GT-TT / Sportec 997TT AWD / 1-shift
    5.93 - OhioGT2 / GT2 / 1-shift (stock internals)
    5.99 - ttboost / RWD / 1-shift (stock internals)
    6.04 - Vividracing / 997TT AWD / 2-shifts
    6.13 - 996ttalot / AWD TIP
    6.15 - DMK / RWD / 0-shifts
    6.26 - Chinitowest / AWD / 1-shift
    6.32 - Skandalis447 / AWD / 1-shift
    6.33 - VividRacingTX / RWD TIP
    6.37 - Onelove / RWD / 1-shift
    6.38 - Milou / 997TT AWD TIP
    6.45 - RenntechV12 / GT2 / 0-shifts
    6.47 - AlphaDog28 / AWD / 0-shifts
    6.48 - Skandalis447 / 997TT AWD TIP
    6.48 - Madsex323 / AWD / 1-shift
    6.55 - Acicchelli / 997TT AWD TIP
    6.60 - Adam Bowles / AWD / 1-shift
    6.67 - Madsex323 / 997TT AWD / 2-shifts
    6.69 - Shotcaller / 997TT AWD / 1-shift
    6.75 - 997John / 997TT AWD TIP
    6.90 - Woodtster / AWD / 2-shifts
    6.94 - TTdude / 997TT AWD / 0-shifts
    6.99 - Eclou / 997TT AWD / 1-shift
    7.01 - Seal Grey Matte / AWD / 1-shift
    7.06 - Zuluracerx / AWD / 2-shifts
    7.24 - k-ddsl / AWD / 997.2TT PDK
    7.25 - Colorinc / AWD / 1-shift
    7.26 - RS38 / GT2 / 0-shifts
    7.33 - Lil Powell / 997TT AWD / 1-shift
    7.50 - Szpet / AWD / 1-shift
    7.59 - SPI / AWD / 1-shift
    7.74 - Shotcaller / 997.2TT PDK
    7.80 - SpunkyQ8 / 997.2TT PDK
    7.83 - Torresmd / AWD / 1-shift
    7.84 - 9Eleven / GT2 / 1-shift
    7.89 - Pierre996TT / AWD / 0-shifts
    7.92 - TXGold / RWD / 1-shift (stock K16's)
    8.03 - FlyingGuy / AWD / 1-shiftdragtimes da
    8.17 - Shotcaller / 997 GT2 / 2-shifts (stock)
    8.25 - Adam Bowles / 1-shift
    8.28 - Keithta / Panamera TT w/ ECU flash
    8.42 - bob'5 / AWD / 1-shift / (stock K16's)
    8.45 - TwinTurboM3 / 997TT AWD TIP
    8.76 - Scotty slc / AWD / 1-shift
    8.86 - Haudimal / 997TT AWD TIP
    8.79 - SpunkyQ8 / 997.2TT PDK (stock)
    9.00 - OS Inspector / AWD / 1-shift
    9.10 - Waymegelli / AWD / TIP
    9.33 - racegate / AWD / 1-shift
    9.53 - Woosh / AWD / 1-shift
    9.54 - Roadsterdoc / AWD / 1-shift
    9.56 - Topgun / AWD / 3-shifts
    9.65 - DD GT3 RD / 997 GT3
    10.06 - Panas001 / AWD / 1-shift
    10.11 - k-ddsl / AWD / 997.2TT PDK (stock car in 113 degree heat)
    10.14 - Keithta / stock Panamera TT

     


    --
     

    Regards,
    Can
    997 Turbo + Bilstein Damptronic "Stage 2" ( Review ) + GIAC ECU Custom Tune ( Fast as a torpedo & reversible to stock - Review ) + Cargraphic Exhaust ( Oh heavenly noise! )


    Re: need imput on exhaust and power upgrade

    RC:

    Funny posts, really. I have numbers, not feelings. 

    Driving 200 mph in  the US on a public street ? I won't comment on that.

    Track driving ? Since when does power matter ? I can outrun any tuned 997 Turbo on a tight track with a GT3 and the right chassis/tire setup. I also wouldn't track race a Cab, this would get one over here in Germany some good laughs.

    Sorry guys but I rather think that you fell for tuner talk and passion, not real numbers (which reminds me a little bit of Stradale's posts in the debt ceiling discussion... ).

     

     

    I'll refer to Cann's post, that if you don't notice a difference in stock w/exhaust to stage 2 (which tune do you have??), there's something wrong...... W/ my car it wasn't even a matter of trying decide if there was a difference, it was immediately different, I wasn't expecting it to be as noticeable..But I owned the car w/ exhaust for 2 years before the tune so I had a very good feeling for exactly what the car felt like before....I think that could be a factor....... 

    How do you explain what Cann brought up about when he switches back & forth between stock & tune?? Who was talking about track racing a Cab? And so what if I was tracking my Cab?  According to you some Germans think a Turbo Cab isn’t a good enough car to put on a track? Okay, but to be honest & blunt -  sounds like you need new, less-snobby friends.......

    200mph was obviously a joke, usually obvious to most people when followed by these letters that I typed:   "lol!" ... But not going over 100mph is the funny part.  Why own a Porsche, never mind a Porsche Turbo??? You should try & make it to some of our charity rallies for families of fallen members of law enforcement or "make a wish" ,, "toys for tots" where not only are the designated highways for the rally organized & closed by law enforcement to "public traffic" for 20+ miles but the rally's usually start as a fun race between law enforcement & Ferrari's, tuned Porsche's, where the lead car from the first on-ramp goes from a police car to whomever drives the fastest/gets to the destination the fastest but usually everyone keeps it within reason, there's the right areas & not right areas .... In fact when my wife goes w/ me, she’s usually my built in rev-limiter & usually (even if it's straight, wide open highway),,, riiiiight around 165 is when she shuts me down & there I’m getting passed!! … Your not over 100 would get you rear-ended.

    Re: The Debt Ceiling discussion - Yeah RC, you're right, you know soooooooo much about US politics, you're the real authority on the subject.  It's been a passion of mine since I'm in Junior High, my degree/ Major was Political Science but you know better.....  But why should your view of my opinion's on US politics be any different than telling OTHER people what THEIR OWN cars feel like...

    RC ------ You should put that saying up at the top of the page, next to the RENNTEAM banner

    RENNTEAM - Since when does power matter }}}}}}

     Smiley

    --

    08 PORSCHE Turbo Cabriolet - 06 Ferrari F430 - 04 Durango HEMI - 04 Harley Davidson Screamin Eagle - 93 Harley Davidson Nostalgia


    Re: need imput on exhaust and power upgrade

    kevinm:

    Stradale

    I only added the tubi exhaust at that time for two reasons. One, to see what the car felt like after adding the exhaust and also because of having 3 years left on warranty. The sound was a great improvement and for a cab the tubi was not too loud with to top down. Very happy with it...as for power nothing noticable. I am thinking of tuning it with EVOMSit software and boost recirculating valves through Sharkwerks in San Jose. I was wondering what the difference felt like and well you guys just answered that question.  I was wondering if there has been any flywheel slip?

     

    Smiley

    Tubi is a good choice for the Cab.. That's one of the reason's I picked it as well, improvement in sound (as much as can be expected w/ a Turbo charged car) but not too loud, to overwhelm conversation in the cockpit w/ top down/ or the radio... I don't have slippage...

    --

    08 PORSCHE Turbo Cabriolet - 06 Ferrari F430 - 04 Durango HEMI - 04 Harley Davidson Screamin Eagle - 93 Harley Davidson Nostalgia


    Re: need imput on exhaust and power upgrade

    Ok to get back to regular programming? ;-) Gregg you are close enough to AWE Tuning in Pennsylvania? These guys are among the most trusted names in the US, a no brainer recommendation if you need clutch and Bilstein. You do not need to replace clutch at same time as stage 3 Ecu upgrade; just have your dealer do the upgrade then consider clutch later. Kevin, same for you. You are home to Super Shop Sharkster. Don't hesitate to take advantage! Typing from my Samsung Android; will post clutch info later.
    --

    Regards,
    Can
    997 Turbo + Bilstein Damptronic "Stage 2" ( Review ) + GIAC ECU Custom Tune ( Fast as a torpedo & reversible to stock - Review ) + Cargraphic Exhaust ( Oh heavenly noise! )


    Re: need imput on exhaust and power upgrade

    The clutch set that most people use is Sachs. There are 3 components of concern: flywheel, clutch disc, and pressure plate, and if you use the following, I believe the bahavior will be more or less like stock:
    Pressure plate: Sachs xxx764 (don't use xxx752, not strong enough).
    Clutch disc: Sachs xxx973, or you could re-use stock clutch disc (eclou does this I think, and his car is stage 4 and in the list  above, faster 60-130 than 997.2 PDK Turbo by nearly 2 seconds!).
    Flywheel: use stock, don't use low weight flywheel.

    You are right next door to a Sachs expert http://www.awe-tuning.com/products/porsche/997/turbo/awe-996stage2.html . I am sure AWE would give you outstanding advice. The kit I mentioned above AFAIK (please check) is called Stage 2.5 - the clutch stage, not ECU stage - that sells for 1600. I believe Stage 2 uses xxx752 pressure plate, not good enough.

    I don't want to discourage you from stage 3, but yes do keep in mind that unlike stage 2 (basically all software, 100% safety IOW), stage 3 now involves hardware (mainly intercooler, and secondarily the header) and if the tuner is any good, very likely you'll need clutch. The stock clutch slips around 550 ft-lbf (750 N-m) and a stage 3 should be at or above this.


    --
     

    Regards,
    Can
    997 Turbo + Bilstein Damptronic "Stage 2" ( Review ) + GIAC ECU Custom Tune ( Fast as a torpedo & reversible to stock - Review ) + Cargraphic Exhaust ( Oh heavenly noise! )


    Re: need imput on exhaust and power upgrade

    cannga:
    Ok to get back to regular programming? ;-) Gregg you are close enough to AWE Tuning in Pennsylvania? These guys are among the most trusted names in the US, a no brainer recommendation if you need clutch and Bilstein. You do not need to replace clutch at same time as stage 3 Ecu upgrade; just have your dealer do the upgrade then consider clutch later. Kevin, same for you. You are home to Super Shop Sharkster. Don't hesitate to take advantage! Typing from my Samsung Android; will post clutch info later.

     

    What about my dealer for the clutch later? They have basically a tuner division that's part of the service dept. Division is not the right word, what I mean is they have a good relationship w/ EVOMS & promote these kind of mods..

    So, I'd be okay w/ stage 3 EVOMS without a clutch??  

       


    --

    08 PORSCHE Turbo Cabriolet - 06 Ferrari F430 - 04 Durango HEMI - 04 Harley Davidson Screamin Eagle - 93 Harley Davidson Nostalgia


    Re: need imput on exhaust and power upgrade

    cannga:

    The clutch set that most people use is Sachs. There are 3 components of concern: flywheel, clutch disc, and pressure plate, and if you use the following, I believe the bahavior will be more or less like stock:
    Pressure plate: Sachs xxx764 (don't use xxx752, not strong enough).
    Clutch disc: Sachs xxx973, or you could re-use stock clutch disc (eclou does this I think, and his car is stage 4 and in the list  above, faster 60-130 than 997.2 PDK Turbo by nearly 2 seconds!).
    Flywheel: use stock, don't use low weight flywheel.

    You are right next door to a Sachs expert http://www.awe-tuning.com/products/porsche/997/turbo/awe-996stage2.html . I am sure AWE would give you outstanding advice. The kit I mentioned above AFAIK (please check) is called Stage 2.5 - the clutch stage, not ECU stage - that sells for 1600. I believe Stage 2 uses xxx752 pressure plate, not good enough.

    I don't want to discourage you from stage 3, but yes do keep in mind that unlike stage 2 (basically all software, 100% safety IOW), stage 3 now involves hardware (mainly intercooler, and secondarily the header) and if the tuner is any good, very likely you'll need clutch. The stock clutch slips around 550 ft-lbf (750 N-m) and a stage 3 should be at or above this.

     

     

    Ok, thanks Cann. I will have conversations with my dealer & AWE, that's a good idea, I don't know the exact distance to AWE but I don't  think it's too far ...

    That's one of the things I want to stick with, having somewhat equal pedal pressure as stock...  Some days I can drive from home to my factory in upstate NY, 100miles each way where I don't hit any traffic whatsoever & there's areas of highway that open's up flat & straight for miles where you can really open her up & then I have days like Thursday's pm commute where it took over 2 hours to drive 25 miles from my headquarters office to home. Stiffer clutch would not fun on days like that...      


    --

    08 PORSCHE Turbo Cabriolet - 06 Ferrari F430 - 04 Durango HEMI - 04 Harley Davidson Screamin Eagle - 93 Harley Davidson Nostalgia


    Re: need imput on exhaust and power upgrade

     A 764 pressure plate will give you the identical engagement point and clutch feel as the stock pressure plate.  If you swap flywheels to a LWFW, the engagement point will change, as will the friction point.  If you are looking for a nearly identical clutch setup, with the same feel and engagement, a Sachs 2 with a 764 plate is a very good combination with a sustainable torque limit in the 650 lb/ft.


    Re: need imput on exhaust and power upgrade

    STRADALE:
    cannga:
    Ok to get back to regular programming? ;-) Gregg you are close enough to AWE Tuning in Pennsylvania? These guys are among the most trusted names in the US, a no brainer recommendation if you need clutch and Bilstein. You do not need to replace clutch at same time as stage 3 Ecu upgrade; just have your dealer do the upgrade then consider clutch later. Kevin, same for you. You are home to Super Shop Sharkster. Don't hesitate to take advantage! Typing from my Samsung Android; will post clutch info later.

     

    What about my dealer for the clutch later? They have basically a tuner division that's part of the service dept. Division is not the right word, what I mean is they have a good relationship w/ EVOMS & promote these kind of mods..

    So, I'd be okay w/ stage 3 EVOMS without a clutch??  

       

    Yes, of course it's ok for the Porsche dealer to install your clutch later.

    You would be "ok" without a new clutch in so far as no harm is done if clutch slips with your newfound extra power. It only happens during extra aggressive driving anyway. What you could do is to convert to stage 3 ECU, then see what happens. If the clutch slips, upgrade it then. If not, do nothing.

    When it's time, you could buy the Sachs clutch set from AWE, or EVOMS, and let the dealer (or AWE) install it. Just make sure AWE/EVOMS sell you the exact part numbers I (& Bob/bbywu) posted.


    --

    Regards,
    Can
    997 Turbo + Bilstein Damptronic "Stage 2" ( Review ) + GIAC ECU Custom Tune ( Fast as a torpedo & reversible to stock - Review ) + Cargraphic Exhaust ( Oh heavenly noise! )


    Re: need imput on exhaust and power upgrade

    Thanks Guys!


    --

    08 PORSCHE Turbo Cabriolet - 06 Ferrari F430 - 04 Durango HEMI - 04 Harley Davidson Screamin Eagle - 93 Harley Davidson Nostalgia


    Re: need imput on exhaust and power upgrade

    STRADALE:

    I'll refer to Cann's post, that if you don't notice a difference in stock w/exhaust to stage 2 (which tune do you have??), there's something wrong...... W/ my car it wasn't even a matter of trying decide if there was a difference, it was immediately different, I wasn't expecting it to be as noticeable..But I owned the car w/ exhaust for 2 years before the tune so I had a very good feeling for exactly what the car felt like before....I think that could be a factor....... 

    How do you explain what Cann brought up about when he switches back & forth between stock & tune?? Who was talking about track racing a Cab? And so what if I was tracking my Cab?  According to you some Germans think a Turbo Cab isn’t a good enough car to put on a track? Okay, but to be honest & blunt -  sounds like you need new, less-snobby friends.......

    200mph was obviously a joke, usually obvious to most people when followed by these letters that I typed:   "lol!" ... But not going over 100mph is the funny part.  Why own a Porsche, never mind a Porsche Turbo??? You should try & make it to some of our charity rallies for families of fallen members of law enforcement or "make a wish" ,, "toys for tots" where not only are the designated highways for the rally organized & closed by law enforcement to "public traffic" for 20+ miles but the rally's usually start as a fun race between law enforcement & Ferrari's, tuned Porsche's, where the lead car from the first on-ramp goes from a police car to whomever drives the fastest/gets to the destination the fastest but usually everyone keeps it within reason, there's the right areas & not right areas .... In fact when my wife goes w/ me, she’s usually my built in rev-limiter & usually (even if it's straight, wide open highway),,, riiiiight around 165 is when she shuts me down & there I’m getting passed!! … Your not over 100 would get you rear-ended.

    Re: The Debt Ceiling discussion - Yeah RC, you're right, you know soooooooo much about US politics, you're the real authority on the subject.  It's been a passion of mine since I'm in Junior High, my degree/ Major was Political Science but you know better.....  But why should your view of my opinion's on US politics be any different than telling OTHER people what THEIR OWN cars feel like...

    RC ------ You should put that saying up at the top of the page, next to the RENNTEAM banner

    RENNTEAM - Since when does power matter }}}}}}

     Smiley

    I won't bother telling you guys that I don't believe in advertisement but real numbers (certified real numbers) and I probably shouldn't tell you that SPORT AUTO has tested various tuned 997 Turbo in the past but none of the cars showed significant performance increases in the 0-60 and 0-100 mph speed range. Over 100 mph, things look different of course but on the track, power really isn't that important and whoever claims different, well...do the math. Smiley

    Apparently tuners like RUF, RS-Tuning, Sportec, Manthey, Techart and so on don't have a clue how to tune 997 Turbo, right ?! Smiley Unless of course you don't care about reliability, environmental issues, technical issues, etc.. 

    Oh, when did you drive 180 mph lately...for a consecutive 5 to 10 minutes ? I did...in a truck. Smiley

    For me, this topic is closed. If you want however to fantasize further about wishful power and performance gains, be my guest. I will ignore it. Smiley

     

    Oh...I don't consider drag strip trial runs to be track racing. Smiley

     


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 997 Carrera GTS Cabriolet PDK, BMW X5M, BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S Countryman All4


    Re: need imput on exhaust and power upgrade

    RC, IMHO it is sometimes a good idea to step back from the concrete beliefs that have been ingrained in one's heads and think about the only constant in this world: changes, and the possibility that one might be wrong. In this case please open your eyes to the world of tuning outside of Western Europe, of flash through OBDII, of data logging by customers. The market has spoken for you and RUF is as dead as door nail in the US and it would NOT surprise me if the domino effect spreads. In the old days, no doubt about Ruf's superiority but in this brave new world, there has been no proof whatsoever that it is superior in manners that are relevant to the Porsche customers of the world. And I am even not touching the inappropirately exorbitant price tags yet.

    The tuners in the US are not guys coming from street corners. There is more involvement between these " street corner" tuners with Porsche Motorsports USA or Audi Motorsports USA than you or I know. There might be the "inventor" of OBDII ECU flash in there somewhere. Regardless of matters of pedigree, which I am sure no one could match RUF, the bottom line is proof and numbers. And numbers, I have for you.

    You are contradicting yourself in a very serious manner and now the argument is going all over the road. Let's concentrate on the primary original statement: Sport Auto shows no significant increase in 0-60 and 0-100 with tuned car(s). This is a test of straightline speed and not the track correct? Let me ask you again, which part of the PBox proven numbers below is not real?  The problem here is with the whatever (Western Europe) tuner  that Sport Auto was testing,  don't look at "us."

    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
    http://www.6speedonline.com/forums/996-turbo-gt2/55163-6speedonlines-official-60-130-1-4-mile-standing-mile-list.html

    GPS based performance computer/accelerometer times (V-Box, Drift Box or Performance Box )

    PLEASE NOTE: Only GPS based, datalogger times from V-box equipment (Drift Box, Performance Box, or V-Box) will be accepted for this list. No extrapolated times from 1/4 mile time-slips. Also, all submitted data must be reviewed for accuracy and approved by a Subject Matter Expert (SME) before the time is posted.

    Current SME's are:

    Divexxtreme - Divexxtreme@hotmail.com
    KPG - Kpgtdg1@aol.com

    *NOTE: The maximum allowed downhill slope over the course of the run is 3.00%. Any run that exceeds 3.00% will not be posted on the list.

    60 -130 mph (96.5-209.2 kph):

    3.96 - KPG / RWD / 0-shifts
    4.14 - Keithta / 997TT AWD / 1-shift
    4.25 - dk996tt / 997TT AWD / 1-shift (stock internals)
    4.25 - art4iza / RWD / 0-shifts
    4.43 - edelectra / 997TT AWD / 1-shift (stock internals)
    4.62 - Markski / RWD / 2-shifts
    4.63 - Whiteknight / 997TT AWD TIP
    4.67 - Divexxtreme / RWD 996TT / 2-shifts
    4.81 - Joetwint / RWD / 2-shifts
    4.85 - topgun / AWD / 2-shifts
    4.89 - Powell / AWD / 1-shift (stock internals)
    4.95 - Divexxtreme / GT2 / 2-shifts
    4.97 - Besiktas / 997TT AWD TIP (stock internals)
    5.18 - Chris Green / RWD / 1-shift (stock internals)
    5.23 - WhiteKnight / 997TT AWD TIP (stock internals)
    5.44 - gtovan / 997 GT2 / 1-shift (stock internals)
    5.50 - KerCar / 997TT TIP (stock internals)
    5.54 - uaeturbo / 997TT AWD TIP
    5.54 - MBailey / RWD / 0-shifts (stock internals)
    5.55 - AtomicZ / GT2 / 1-shift (stock internals)
    5.64 - EVOMS / RWD / 2-shifts
    5.73 - bmoores / RWD / 1-shift (stock internals)
    5.74 - Palette / AWD / 1-shift (stock internals)
    5.75 - evoviiiyou / 997TT AWD / 1-shift (stock internals)
    5.79 - Dr Jitsu / GT2 / 1-shift (stock internals)
    5.86 - GT-TT / Sportec 997TT AWD / 1-shift
    5.93 - OhioGT2 / GT2 / 1-shift (stock internals)
    5.99 - ttboost / RWD / 1-shift (stock internals)
    6.04 - Vividracing / 997TT AWD / 2-shifts
    6.13 - 996ttalot / AWD TIP
    6.15 - DMK / RWD / 0-shifts
    6.26 - Chinitowest / AWD / 1-shift
    6.32 - Skandalis447 / AWD / 1-shift
    6.33 - VividRacingTX / RWD TIP
    6.37 - Onelove / RWD / 1-shift
    6.38 - Milou / 997TT AWD TIP
    6.45 - RenntechV12 / GT2 / 0-shifts
    6.47 - AlphaDog28 / AWD / 0-shifts
    6.48 - Skandalis447 / 997TT AWD TIP
    6.48 - Madsex323 / AWD / 1-shift
    6.55 - Acicchelli / 997TT AWD TIP
    6.60 - Adam Bowles / AWD / 1-shift
    6.67 - Madsex323 / 997TT AWD / 2-shifts
    6.69 - Shotcaller / 997TT AWD / 1-shift
    6.75 - 997John / 997TT AWD TIP
    6.90 - Woodtster / AWD / 2-shifts
    6.94 - TTdude / 997TT AWD / 0-shifts
    6.99 - Eclou / 997TT AWD / 1-shift
    7.01 - Seal Grey Matte / AWD / 1-shift
    7.06 - Zuluracerx / AWD / 2-shifts
    7.24 - k-ddsl / AWD / 997.2TT PDK
    7.25 - Colorinc / AWD / 1-shift
    7.26 - RS38 / GT2 / 0-shifts
    7.33 - Lil Powell / 997TT AWD / 1-shift
    7.50 - Szpet / AWD / 1-shift
    7.59 - SPI / AWD / 1-shift
    7.74 - Shotcaller / 997.2TT PDK
    7.77 - FlyingGuy / AWD / 1-shift
    7.80 - SpunkyQ8 / 997.2TT PDK
    7.83 - Torresmd / AWD / 1-shift
    7.84 - 9Eleven / GT2 / 1-shift
    7.89 - Pierre996TT / AWD / 0-shifts
    7.92 - TXGold / RWD / 1-shift (stock K16's)
    8.17 - Shotcaller / 997 GT2 / 2-shifts (stock)
    8.25 - Adam Bowles / 1-shift
    8.28 - Keithta / Panamera TT w/ ECU flash
    8.42 - bob'5 / AWD / 1-shift / (stock K16's)
    8.45 - TwinTurboM3 / 997TT AWD TIP
    8.76 - Scotty slc / AWD / 1-shift
    8.86 - Haudimal / 997TT AWD TIP
    8.79 - SpunkyQ8 / 997.2TT PDK (stock)
    9.00 - OS Inspector / AWD / 1-shift
    9.10 - Waymegelli / AWD / TIP
    9.33 - racegate / AWD / 1-shift
    9.53 - Woosh / AWD / 1-shift
    9.54 - Roadsterdoc / AWD / 1-shift
    9.56 - Topgun / AWD / 3-shifts
    9.65 - DD GT3 RD / 997 GT3
    10.06 - Panas001 / AWD / 1-shift
    10.11 - k-ddsl / AWD / 997.2TT PDK (stock car in 113 degree heat)
    10.14 - Keithta / stock Panamera TT

     

     


    --
     

    Regards,
    Can
    997 Turbo + Bilstein Damptronic "Stage 2" ( Review ) + GIAC ECU Custom Tune ( Fast as a torpedo & reversible to stock - Review ) + Cargraphic Exhaust ( Oh heavenly noise! )


    Re: need imput on exhaust and power upgrade

    I should clarify that my post above is not meant to imply that RUF doesn't know what they are doing. Rather, the point is that for ECU tuning of latest generation of 911, they have not been proven to be superior in any way that is relevant, or to justify the incredibly exorbitant price tag. $15,000 for a stage 2 tune (not even a custom tune, this is off the shelf generic program) is, simply and frankly, highway robbery. Ask yourself how many people in the forum have a 997 tuned by RUF? I rest my case. RUF is a gonner in the US and it would not surprise me if the domino chips start falling around the world.

    There are 2 aspects of evaluation of any mod, ECU included: subjective and objective. Trustworthy subjective data for ECU mods are scant and is not that trustworthy mainly because reviewers have personal preference and possibly, agendas. Objectively, there are 3 ways to look at an ECU mod:
    1. Dyno.
    2. Track time.
    3. Straight line test. 60-130, 1/4 mile, 0-100, 100-200, what have you.
    Of the 3 above, dyno results are not 100% reliable because the results could be altered/tempered with by varying the settings of the dyno itself and by varying test conditions (ambient temp, octane, elevation, etc.). In addition, no matter what the dyno says, the bottom line is still, how the car actually performs on the road. That leaves us with the last two tests, track time and straight line.
    Track time comparisons of tuned cars are essentially non existent for latest generation of 997, leaving us with only one sure way of evaluation, straight line testing. Straight line testing is by no mean comprehensive,  but for all practical purposes and in this imperfect world it is currently the ONLY fair and trustworthy way to compare tuners. This is why the above 6speedonline thread is IMHO the most important thread in existence for documenting the works of ECU tuners for street cars. It is neither complete or perfect, but is as good as could be. Perhaps, the day that thread started was the beginning of the end for RUF in retail sales. It should be noted that the list is not just US users, there are results from other parts of the world there. If you submit a legit result, they will post it.

    Although I disagree with RC about some issues, we are probably similar in some important aspects. I think track time is the most important test. I am not exactly a straightline "speed" person (prefer to drive at lower speed in the twisties) and really don't care too much about  for example these videos of drag racings, or about Turbo PDK's incredible acceleration (still too soft of a car, more luxurious than sporty), but that does NOT mean I don't think others should not enjoy what they do - all out straight line speed. Lastly I should mention that the same 4 names that I have mentioned and recommended in the past are on that 6speedonline list: Switzer, Protomotive, EVOMS, GIAC. They are well established companies, Protomotive and GIAC have been around for many years, and as much as forum info allows, I am sure ultra high power cars have their problems, but they don't blow up spontaneously either as someone might have you believed. This is currently the 997 Champion, in case anyone is interested: http://www.6speedonline.com/forums/997-turbo-gt2/239042-keithta-ethanol-e85-porsche-997-turbo-breaks-porsche-60-130-record.html
    60-130 in 4.14 seconds, nearly half that of a stock PDK 997.2 Turbo. Smiley


    --
     

    Regards,
    Can
    997 Turbo + Bilstein Damptronic "Stage 2" ( Review ) + GIAC ECU Custom Tune ( Fast as a torpedo & reversible to stock - Review ) + Cargraphic Exhaust ( Oh heavenly noise! )


    Re: need imput on exhaust and power upgrade

    Nice TT, what a BEAST


    Re: need imput on exhaust and power upgrade

    We (three of us on the RL 993tt forum) invented the 60-130mph measurement in the days of the 993 turbo which due to thermal issues were extremely hard to tune over 500hp and the 700hp claims of many US Tuners were easily put to the test...... the advent of the 996 turbo with water cooling really opened the flood gates for the US Tuners to get stuck into the 60-130 which we used to test the real power of the air cooled cars...... what has resulted is a plethora of high boost "tunes" which can give awesome performance up to about 150mph which is great for what you (Can) seem to think is real Porsche performance, indeed in the US it probably is all you need but if Sport Auto got hold of one of these US "tunes" the limitations would be found very quickly.

    Intake temps rise massively on the VTG engines on loading above 130mph and the power wilts away rapidly through the engines safety measures, I have done loads of testing at high load and data logged all the temps, timing, boost etc etc and it is very hard to get a VTG engined car above a "real" (ie to perform like 700hp over 130mph) 700hp.....

    Ruf doesnt really bother with the VTG engines because of what I wrote above and uses the 996 turbo motor and ECU which is a lot simpler and ticks all the boxes he wants ticking and his motors will survive a SA test mostly.......


    --


     

     

    2009 997 GT2


    Re: need imput on exhaust and power upgrade

    TB993tt:

    We (three of us on the RL 993tt forum) invented the 60-130mph measurement in the days of the 993 turbo which due to thermal issues were extremely hard to tune over 500hp and the 700hp claims of many US Tuners were easily put to the test...... the advent of the 996 turbo with water cooling really opened the flood gates for the US Tuners to get stuck into the 60-130 which we used to test the real power of the air cooled cars...... what has resulted is a plethora of high boost "tunes" which can give awesome performance up to about 150mph which is great for what you (Can) seem to think is real Porsche performance, indeed in the US it probably is all you need but ***if*** Sport Auto got hold of one of these US "tunes" the limitations would be found very quickly.

    -

     

    The "if" above is the problem. Of course, you might be right, but for now, what you are stating is speculation, no? One could make this assumption, but without a valid test, it's meaningless. *My* speculation would be if Sport Auto got hold of one of these tunes and compare against a similar RUF tune, the result is up in the air.

    In addition, just to play devil's advocate, if 99% of the Porsche enthusiasts in the world are looking for faster 60-130, and the cars don't blow up, then what matters? Perhaps this is why RUF has been relegated to irrelevency in the US.

    Don't forget  too, an extremely important fact, that what you have in your car is seemingly *extremely expensive* custom tuning, and unique *extremely expensive* intercooler.  Your car is as similar to other RS Tuning cars as a horse is to a donkey! A majority of RUF/RS Tuning cars do not have this luxury of custom tuning, unless $$$ is added (Really I will gladly take a GT2 RS instead. Smiley).  I will redo my speculation: If Sport Auto got a hold of one of these tunes and compare it against a RUF that has not been custom tuned, as typical of US cars, it's possible the RUF car will "blow up" first.
    Wasn't there some video of a non performing GT2 car with non-custom RS Tuning somewhere? I don't remember other than there were some problems with the test? What car beat it, a Turbo?
     

    Regards,
    Can
    997 Turbo + Bilstein Damptronic "Stage 2" ( Review ) + GIAC ECU Custom Tune ( Fast as a torpedo & reversible to stock - Review ) + Cargraphic Exhaust ( Oh heavenly noise! )


    Re: need imput on exhaust and power upgrade

    ^^^The horse to donkey comparison is meant as a light-hearted compliment. No offense intended. Toby's car being the horse, a non-custom tune RS Tuning car, with an off-the-shelf program they are selling, the donkey. 

    Regards,
    Can
    997 Turbo + Bilstein Damptronic "Stage 2" ( Review ) + GIAC ECU Custom Tune ( Fast as a torpedo & reversible to stock - Review ) + Cargraphic Exhaust ( Oh heavenly noise! )


    Re: need imput on exhaust and power upgrade


    Can, you talk good sense as usual Smiley...... but I think the SA comparison would really show the US tunes for what they are - in most cases stonking 60-130 performers which deploy the hp in the range which most US customers want.

    The only test in the UK of an EVOMS conversion which was actually used in EVOs promo material, see the dyno sheet below which was done after tuning at their UK agent with a claimed 735hp/1020NM, all fully endorsed/confirmed by EVO to the extent where they used the car as a marketing mule.

    The owner, a good guy let a magazine test it with the results below:

    It performed like a 620hp car still fast and fast enough to keep most customers happy but no where near the real 740hp 9ff car.

    The magazine article also hinted at the power delivery which was confirmed by the owner as being "surgey" and not smooth.....

    My not inconsiderable experience in tuning turbo Porsche is that you get what you pay for and you will find that the guys in the US who have reliable real high hp will have in the end paid similar amounts as it costs in Europe but usually they will have a faster acceleration but an engine which couldnt be held at top speed.....

    Just on your note about "most"  RS cars not being custom tuned ? I think most are, certailnly in Europe, RS builds 100+ bespoke engines per year..... Cargraphic sells the generic "kits" but anything more than and ecu/exhaust usually has to be done in house.... Ruf you are right did sell kits through their dealers but they are expensive to pay for the R&D etc.......

    The video showing the RS Tuning GT2 being beaten by a 997tt...... yes I saw it in fact the GT2 was wearing some of my expensive intercoolers Smiley........ I don't know the details of the 997tt but of course it had more power on that day than the 635kit which the GT2 was running but then maybe the GT2 wasn't running right, I know that kit was installed in Sweden not in house so it is possible something was amiss, they didn't show any acceleration data so it is impossible to say exactly what was going on apart from the RS car lost ....... but that brings me to the important fact, RS cars are mostly race cars and they mostly do not lose, they win and this is the difference between their engines and others, they are developed on the track.

     

     

     

     


    --


     

     

    2009 997 GT2


     
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