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    Re: Who would love to have his Turbo S under sequester?

    easy_rider911:
     

    Anyway, at the end of the day, what the Swiss decide should be law in their country is up to them - I just don't agree with it from a jurisprudential perspective.

     

    And that makes an interesting debate . Smiley


    --

     997.2 C2S, PDK, -20mm


    Re: Who would love to have his Turbo S under sequester?

    RC:
    Funny, I escaped several police "encounters" in Italy and even one in Austria just by talking (and being very apologetic and nice) but in Switzerland...well...the police officers were very aggressive. Bad luck? Maybe. I won't forget that border incident though where the customs officer made me sit in my car at an outside temperature of almost 30°C and without allowing me to turn on the engine or to exit the car. 

    I do get the impression that Police tend to be more severe with foreigners their their own people .

    I remember my father being treated like a criminal in California because he was slightly driving too fast . The cop put him out of the car, hands on the hood and my mother and us ( 2 kids ) inside the car scared of what was happening .

    Ever heard of drugs? Especially those with foreign license plates are suspects because many foreigners came to Holland just to buy pot. Smiley

    Exactly ! I am not going into details of what happened at that border Smiley


    --

     997.2 C2S, PDK, -20mm


    Re: Who would love to have his Turbo S under sequester?

    easy_rider911:
     

    By contrast, English law is used by people all around the world ... 

     

    Easy : Whoopsy stated that in Canada they can also confiscate your car and put it to auction . I would imagine Canada laws to be anglo - saxon inspired and similar to Uk . So how is that possible ?


    --

     997.2 C2S, PDK, -20mm


    Re: Who would love to have his Turbo S under sequester?

    easy_rider911:

    By contrast, the issue discussed here is that cars in Switzerland can be confiscated (which attacks a person's unique property rather than a fungible asset like money) and that fines in Switzerland are calculated according to an offender's assets and will therefore vary from person to person.

    Outside Switzerland, car confiscation laws are in place in many jurisdictions within America, Canada, Australia, Holland, Israel, South Africa and Poland. Fines based on the offender's assets are used in many other places too, as already mentioned above. Switzerland is in no way unique here.

    In Holland the car can be confiscated permanently. Most prominent example, a 20-year old who had borrowed his father's car and was clocked 160 km/h in an 80 km/h zone. The car was a Bugatti Veyron and it ended up being the most expensive "speeding fine" ever issued Smiley


    --

    2014 991 Carrera 4S | Dark Blue Metallic | PDK | S-PASM (-20mm) | PSE

    2010 Audi S5 cabrio | Ibis White


    Re: Who would love to have his Turbo S under sequester?

    easy_rider911:

    I myself said above that "the key is driver education, not draconian enforcement Smiley"

    Absolutely, agree. So how could driver education be improved compared to today? What can be done with the serious or repeat offenders which keep speeding despite education?

     


    --

    2014 991 Carrera 4S | Dark Blue Metallic | PDK | S-PASM (-20mm) | PSE

    2010 Audi S5 cabrio | Ibis White


    Re: Who would love to have his Turbo S under sequester?

    bluelines:

    As we know, statistics are lies, but anyway... if you look road fatalities per year per 100'000 inhabitants then you have US 11.4, Canada 6.8 and Switzerland 4.2. It does seem to fit the views and laws a bit too well to be true Smiley

    Have a nice day folks and drive safe! Smiley

     

    I think that's a bit misleading because I don't believe it takes into account km driven. Here are the numbers for traffic related death rate per 1B km. There could be 100,000 cars on the road in one country driving 5K km per year each, but 100,000 cars in other doing 25K km per year. I believe Americans drive waaaay more than a lot of European countries on average. Gas and cars are much cheaper, and we make use of all that space :)

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_traffic-related_death_rate

    US - 7.6
    CA - 6.1
    CH - 5.6
    DE - 4.9
    UK - 4.3

    DE has the highest speeds but is quite low on the list.

    I think most of the difference is actually behavioral and cultural. Regardless of the rules, which are actually not that much different from country to country and usually not inadequate, there is a massive difference between someplace like China and Germany. Laws are similar, but the drivers are worlds apart. China is a fucking madhouse with some of the dumbest, most mind-boggling shit you'll ever see on the road of a developed country. I say developed because I'm talking about the major, rich, developed cities, not the rural areas filled with unsafe drivers and cars. Don't get me wrong, their system works amazingly well for keeping the traffic flowing in cities so densely populated, but people do some really dumb stuff even when the roads are empty.

    The other day, the inside lane of a two lane road (2 going each way,) was closed for like 10 feet surrounding a sewer or something, and leading up to that point there was a car in each lane. It was night and the roads were more or less empty. So what does the guy in the closed, inside lane do to get around the brief closure? Instead of just slowing down for a split second and changing to the right lane behind the other car, and then getting back in the left lane if he wanted, he actually goes into the oncoming traffic lane. Goes there for a second, passes the sewer hole, then gets back in his lane. It was mind-boggling to see because even though that on-coming lane was empty, it just didn't make any sense. You would never in a million years so someone do that in Germany.

    Even the drivers in the US and Germany are quite different. I don't think the laws make German roads safer, I think it's the education and the type of people driving. Cars are sooooo accessible in the US. The training is cheap, the cars are cheap, gas is cheap, and it's pretty much a necessity in most parts of the US due to sheer size and urban sprawl. In some sense that makes US drivers probably some of the most experienced in the world, but that doesn't guarantee they've developed good habits.

    I really don't think abiding by traffic laws, specifically speeding, is what's making the difference. I think it's more of an educational thing. I don't believe it's hard enough to get on the road in the US and based on my driver's education experience, it's not really very educating. I believe the best drivers have the most experience and good common sense. While experience can only be gained one way, common sense doesn't really grow and for all those people (lots!) who seem to lack it, the education doesn't fill in the rest.


    Re: Who would love to have his Turbo S under sequester?

    noone1:
    bluelines:

    As we know, statistics are lies, but anyway... if you look road fatalities per year per 100'000 inhabitants then you have US 11.4, Canada 6.8 and Switzerland 4.2. It does seem to fit the views and laws a bit too well to be true Smiley

    Have a nice day folks and drive safe! Smiley

     

    I think that's a bit misleading...

    Is is statistics, of course it is misleading Smiley

    Yes, cultural and educational differences are naturally having a significant impact on the numbers. Improving traffic education and increasing awareness will make a huge difference. I don't think anyone disagrees with that.

    However, you will still have the idiots who drive 100km/h on a 50km/h road in a built-up residential area. Over and over again. They don't care about education and awareness. Nor will they care about a relatively tiny fine. So what shall we do with them? If asset-driven punishments are so unfair, then what?

     


    --

    2014 991 Carrera 4S | Dark Blue Metallic | PDK | S-PASM (-20mm) | PSE

    2010 Audi S5 cabrio | Ibis White


    Re: Who would love to have his Turbo S under sequester?

    SuzyF:
    bluelines:

    The law in Sweden is not much different to Switzerland when it comes to traffic offences.  Most western european countries have similar laws, including the UK.

    Switzerland seem to be tougher on the tail events, but these are not significant for the statistics. These cases are outliers. I honestly don't understand the problem that non-Swiss residents have with it. Do you regularly speed and this law applies to you? I hope no one is this irresponsible. Clearly very few here have themselves, or had their loved ones, involved in a traffic accident. I think you would have a very different view then.

    That is exactly the reason why I get angry when I read comments like noone1 made and I apologize to noone1 for that. Both my father and brother were killed by someone who was drunk and was driving over 100km/h in a 30km/h zone. They had no chance to survive.

    i like fast cars and everything that has to do with speed, but what I don't like is people that are irresponsible and think they can do anything they want on the road. 7 out of 10 times these kind of people are rich people, because they don't care about getting a fine. Often they don't even care when their license is taken. That's where the confiscation of a car can be a good thing, because that hurts more than taking a license. I think the Swiss system is perfect when it comes to speeding. Only drunk driving needs to be penalized a lot more IMO. 

    I am sorry to hear that, and while I have not lost any family or friends to such accidents, I almost did.

    My best friend was coming home from work, just cruising along like everyone else. Even though there is a massive 15-20ft division with curbs separating the on-coming traffic, sure enough some drunk/drugged up guy was on the wrong side of the road. Two cars in front of my friend swerved, but my friend couldn't entirely avoid it. The guy hit the passenger half of my friend head-on at an unknown speed.

    My friend was in a relatively modern SUV and for what the car looked like on the outside, it was amazing that there was little to no encroachment even in the passenger side of the car. Modern crash engineering saved his life no doubt. His back was and still is hurt somewhat, and may be for the rest of his life. The drunk guy was not so fortunate -- driving some 1990s Ford that now looked like an accordion. Needless to say, he didn't survive.

    To me, that's just a case of bad luck. Even if my friend was going 20 mph over the speed limit and talking on his cell phone, you would never expect a car to suddenly be coming at you head-on. Oddly enough, if he was doing those things he probably wouldn't have even been in the accident in the first place. You can't prepare for every situation. If my friend was driving 50mph over the limit on that road or 30mph under, he probably wouldn't have gotten in the accident at all and probably wouldn't have caused an accident either. The real problem was that he turned the wrong way into traffic and was drunk. Who knows what would or wouldn't have happened in the infinite amount of possibilities. It is what it is.

    Outside of the extremes, the safest thing you can do is to simply be aware of your surroundings and the conditions, hope others do the same, and hope nothing super random happens. Following all the rules is a decent start, but it is no guarantee for safety.

    Don't get me wrong though. There are a few things I absolutely believe are wrong, should be zero tolerance, and strict punishment. Drunk driving is one of them. Excessive speed in a residential neighborhood. Parking in handicap spaces. Probably more, but I put things like that on another level than going 30mph over the speed limit on a highway.


    Re: Who would love to have his Turbo S under sequester?

    Gnil:
    easy_rider911:
     

    By contrast, English law is used by people all around the world ... 

     

    Easy : Whoopsy stated that in Canada they can also confiscate your car and put it to auction . I would imagine Canada laws to be anglo - saxon inspired and similar to Uk . So how is that possible ?


    Sorry if I created any confusion - I can clarify it in this way - AFAIK all Canadian provinces (except Quebec) have legal systems which are originally based on the Anglo Saxon Common Law system in the UK. But that only describes how those Canadian legal systems were originally set up.

    Legally, Canada is doing its own thing now :) So, those provinces have enacted (and continue to enact) their own criminal and civil laws. The Canadian car confiscation law is just one of those many laws.

    Also, about people all round the world using English law nowadays, that is just in the context of commercial legal contracts where the parties can choose which law governs their contracts. That's nothing to do with criminal law where the law of the place where the crime is committed usually applies.

    --

    997.1 C2S GT Silver/Cocoa, -20mm/LSD, PSE, short shifter, SportDesign rims, Zuffenhausen pickup, BMW Z4 2.5i Roadster Sterling Grey/Red


    Re: Who would love to have his Turbo S under sequester?

    bluelines:
    noone1:
    bluelines:

    As we know, statistics are lies, but anyway... if you look road fatalities per year per 100'000 inhabitants then you have US 11.4, Canada 6.8 and Switzerland 4.2. It does seem to fit the views and laws a bit too well to be true Smiley

    Have a nice day folks and drive safe! Smiley

     

    I think that's a bit misleading...

    Is is statistics, of course it is misleading Smiley

    Yes, cultural and educational differences are naturally having a significant impact on the numbers. Improving traffic education and increasing awareness will make a huge difference. I don't think anyone disagrees with that.

    However, you will still have the idiots who drive 100km/h on a 50km/h road in a built-up residential area. Over and over again. They don't care about education and awareness. Nor will they care about a relatively tiny fine. So what shall we do with them? If asset-driven punishments are so unfair, then what?

     

    Well, I should say first that it's very dependent on the roads. In the US, there are 50kph roads that are seemingly no different than 100 kph roads. Inconsistency is as much of a problem as speed limits. In the US at least, there are times when I don't even know the speed limit. I've found myself driving 10mph under the speed limit at times. There are other times when I realize I'm going 10mph over only after I see a speed limit sign.

    However, for very blatant violations, the solution is much simpler. Don't fine him anything -- take his license for a year and make him attend mandatory 1 hour long driver's classes every week for 2 years. Why debate the merits and effects of financial penalty when it's so much simpler to drive home the point with the severe incovenience of not being able to drive at all. That rich guy might not even give a shit about a $200,000 fine, but I can assure you taking his license for a good amount of time and forcing him to take super annoying driver's classes for a year or two will have quite an impact.

    That doesn't mean abuse license restrictions either, but I feel like the best way to handle driving violations is to do something related to driving.

    The best solution: Tell the guy his license will only allow him to drive a Prius. Speeding problem solved :)


    Re: Who would love to have his Turbo S under sequester?

    bluelines:
    easy_rider911:

    By contrast, the issue discussed here is that cars in Switzerland can be confiscated (which attacks a person's unique property rather than a fungible asset like money) and that fines in Switzerland are calculated according to an offender's assets and will therefore vary from person to person.

    Outside Switzerland, car confiscation laws are in place in many jurisdictions within America, Canada, Australia, Holland, Israel, South Africa and Poland. Fines based on the offender's assets are used in many other places too, as already mentioned above. Switzerland is in no way unique here.

    In Holland the car can be confiscated permanently. Most prominent example, a 20-year old who had borrowed his father's car and was clocked 160 km/h in an 80 km/h zone. The car was a Bugatti Veyron and it ended up being the most expensive "speeding fine" ever issued Smiley

    Well, they are sovereign countries and they can choose whatever laws they want to have. That doesn't mean that those laws are good, just that they are legally valid and effective in their jurisdictions.


    --


    997.1 C2S GT Silver/Cocoa, -20mm/LSD, PSE, short shifter, SportDesign rims, Zuffenhausen pickup, BMW Z4 2.5i Roadster Sterling Grey/Red


    Re: Who would love to have his Turbo S under sequester?

    bluelines:
    easy_rider911:

    I myself said above that "the key is driver education, not draconian enforcement Smiley"

    Absolutely, agree. So how could driver education be improved compared to today? What can be done with the serious or repeat offenders which keep speeding despite education?

    The education in my view is not just what one learns at driving school etc but IMvHO what one learns at school, from one's parents and from society in general ... i.e. that one should be responsible and obey the law.

    It's the classic issue - having laws is one thing, people adhering to them is quite another. IMO punishing people more strictly to force them to obey the law ultimately fails to get everyone to obey. Instead, the longer term solution is to figure out how to make people want to obey through self-regulation so that they don't feel like breaking the law in the first place.


    --


    997.1 C2S GT Silver/Cocoa, -20mm/LSD, PSE, short shifter, SportDesign rims, Zuffenhausen pickup, BMW Z4 2.5i Roadster Sterling Grey/Red


    Re: Who would love to have his Turbo S under sequester?

    easy_rider911:
    bluelines:
    easy_rider911:

    By contrast, the issue discussed here is that cars in Switzerland can be confiscated (which attacks a person's unique property rather than a fungible asset like money) and that fines in Switzerland are calculated according to an offender's assets and will therefore vary from person to person.

    Outside Switzerland, car confiscation laws are in place in many jurisdictions within America, Canada, Australia, Holland, Israel, South Africa and Poland. Fines based on the offender's assets are used in many other places too, as already mentioned above. Switzerland is in no way unique here.

    In Holland the car can be confiscated permanently. Most prominent example, a 20-year old who had borrowed his father's car and was clocked 160 km/h in an 80 km/h zone. The car was a Bugatti Veyron and it ended up being the most expensive "speeding fine" ever issued Smiley

    Well, they are sovereign countries and they can choose whatever laws they want to have. That doesn't mean that those laws are good, just that they are legally valid and effective in their jurisdictions.

    Please define a "good" law? This is getting very interesting... Smiley


    --

    2014 991 Carrera 4S | Dark Blue Metallic | PDK | S-PASM (-20mm) | PSE

    2010 Audi S5 cabrio | Ibis White


    Re: Who would love to have his Turbo S under sequester?

    There is no definition of a "good" law ... it's a value judgement. IMO the most one can do is to specify what criteria one might use to determine whether a law is good or not.

    Now, which criteria one might use will depend on what outcomes one considers reflective of a good law and which yardsticks one might want to use depending upon which philosophy of law one espouses (i.e. what one's jurisprudential approach is).


    --


    997.1 C2S GT Silver/Cocoa, -20mm/LSD, PSE, short shifter, SportDesign rims, Zuffenhausen pickup, BMW Z4 2.5i Roadster Sterling Grey/Red


    Re: Who would love to have his Turbo S under sequester?

    easy_rider911:

    There is no definition of a "good" law ... it's a value judgement. IMO the most one can do is to specify what criteria one might use to determine whether a law is good or not.

    Now, which criteria one might use will depend on what outcomes one considers reflective of a good law and which yardsticks one might want to use depending upon which philosophy of law one espouses (i.e. what one's jurisprudential approach is).

    Hocus pocus, I think we lost half the forum Smiley

    In less lawyer gobbledygook what you mean is the law should be fit for purpose?


    --

    2014 991 Carrera 4S | Dark Blue Metallic | PDK | S-PASM (-20mm) | PSE

    2010 Audi S5 cabrio | Ibis White


    Re: Who would love to have his Turbo S under sequester?

    Fit for purpose is one yardstick. There are plenty of others. For example, the benefit to society, the impact on civil liberties, unintended consequences, cost of implementation & enforcement, ethical & moral justification etc etc


    --


    997.1 C2S GT Silver/Cocoa, -20mm/LSD, PSE, short shifter, SportDesign rims, Zuffenhausen pickup, BMW Z4 2.5i Roadster Sterling Grey/Red


    Re: Who would love to have his Turbo S under sequester?

    easy_rider911:
    Gnil:
    easy_rider911:
     

    By contrast, English law is used by people all around the world ... 

     

    Easy : Whoopsy stated that in Canada they can also confiscate your car and put it to auction . I would imagine Canada laws to be anglo - saxon inspired and similar to Uk . So how is that possible ?


    Sorry if I created any confusion - I can clarify it in this way - AFAIK all Canadian provinces (except Quebec) have legal systems which are originally based on the Anglo Saxon Common Law system in the UK. But that only describes how those Canadian legal systems were originally set up.

    Legally, Canada is doing its own thing now :) So, those provinces have enacted (and continue to enact) their own criminal and civil laws. The Canadian car confiscation law is just one of those many laws.

    Also, about people all round the world using English law nowadays, that is just in the context of commercial legal contracts where the parties can choose which law governs their contracts. That's nothing to do with criminal law where the law of the place where the crime is committed usually applies.

    Much clearer now . Thanks !


    --

     997.2 C2S, PDK, -20mm


    Re: Who would love to have his Turbo S under sequester?

    @bluelines: It's not so much law but rather the philosophy of law (aka jurisprudence).
     
    if you're interested, you could read what are IMO two of the best introductory works on jurisprudence:

    http://www.amazon.co.uk/Central-Issues-Jurisprudence-Justice-Rights/dp/1847030084/ref=pd_rhf_dp_s_cp_9_BJ5Z?ie=UTF8&refRID=0BTXSGWEQS982Z7Z1Z2S

    The above book (which focuses on abstract issues) was written by Nigel Simmonds (a Fellow of Corpus Christi College, Cambridge). He was my Contract Law Lecturer at university, a real gentleman.

    The other book by Professor J W Harris (of Oxford University) summarises all the main legal philosophies:

    http://www.amazon.co.uk/Legal-Philosophies-J-W-Harris/dp/0406507163

    I also found Professor Ronald Dworkin's ideas fascinating Smiley

    --

    997.1 C2S GT Silver/Cocoa, -20mm/LSD, PSE, short shifter, SportDesign rims, Zuffenhausen pickup, BMW Z4 2.5i Roadster Sterling Grey/Red


    Re: Who would love to have his Turbo S under sequester?

    Thanks for this discussion guys. It makes for a very interesting read.

    As someone how enjoys driving fast myself I can sympathize with Cram. Some of the speed limits in various countries are so outdated and often have nothing to do with safety. A good driver education (as someone mentioned above) would do a lot more to decrease accidents. Getting a driver's license here in the U.S. for instance is pretty much a joke as many know. angry

    I (fortunately- knock on wood) don't get many tickets, but when I do, it feels like I'm helping the cop reach his daily quota and he could care less about me speeding. cheekylaugh

    Now if they could only stop people from texting when driving. mail


    --

    If I don't fly, I drive my .:RS 


    Re: Who would love to have his Turbo S under sequester?

    Gnil:

    Easy  :Making our country look like it is the worst place to live on this planet because of some ' details ' of our law  is very exaggerated and not fair at all.  Our place is certainly one of the best ones where you want to face justice .  This law was introduced because our people asked for it !!!  We have a direct democracy and the people could of opposed it , but they did not . The people wanted it .  (  but not me )

    i've had the pleasure of visiting Switzerland so I know what a wonderful country it is Smiley My comments on one particular issue do not reflect on your nation as a whole Smiley


    --


    997.1 C2S GT Silver/Cocoa, -20mm/LSD, PSE, short shifter, SportDesign rims, Zuffenhausen pickup, BMW Z4 2.5i Roadster Sterling Grey/Red


    Re: Who would love to have his Turbo S under sequester?

    LOL, just as I posted the other day speed limit were set artificially low to encourage more revenue, my local government has RAISED the speed limit of a lot of the provincial highways to the 85th percentile speed. Citing common sense, they did it despite the objection from the Police who still say speed kills, but conveniently omit to mention with the raise speed limit they will be writing a lot less speeding tickets.

    It's only in effect in about 15% of the provincial highway system, and on general it's only 10km/hr above what's posted and the max legal speed is still only 120km/hr. But that 10km/hr raise is enough to get to the 85th percentile from around 50-60 percentile. 

     


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    Re: Who would love to have his Turbo S under sequester?

    Whoopsy:

    LOL, just as I posted the other day speed limit were set artificially low to encourage more revenue, my local government has RAISED the speed limit of a lot of the provincial highways to the 85th percentile speed. Citing common sense, they did it despite the objection from the Police who still say speed kills, but conveniently omit to mention with the raise speed limit they will be writing a lot less speeding tickets.

    It's only in effect in about 15% of the provincial highway system, and on general it's only 10km/hr above what's posted and the max legal speed is still only 120km/hr. But that 10km/hr raise is enough to get to the 85th percentile from around 50-60 percentile. 

              You seem to be blessed with superlative timing!  Smiley  

              Some parts of upper BC are so desolate that they should declare them "autobahn" zones.Smiley


    Re: Who would love to have his Turbo S under sequester?

    Whoopsy:

    LOL, just as I posted the other day speed limit were set artificially low to encourage more revenue, my local government has RAISED the speed limit of a lot of the provincial highways to the 85th percentile speed. Citing common sense, they did it despite the objection from the Police who still say speed kills, but conveniently omit to mention with the raise speed limit they will be writing a lot less speeding tickets.

    I think they will remain as busy as before Smiley

    People will quickly adopt and continue to drive faster than the limit. They did a similar thing in Sweden many years back. The limit on highways were 110km/h, but got raised to 130km/h on some sections. Instead of driving 120 km/h, people started driving 140 km/h Smiley  


    --

    2014 991 Carrera 4S | Dark Blue Metallic | PDK | S-PASM (-20mm) | PSE

    2010 Audi S5 cabrio | Ibis White


    Re: Who would love to have his Turbo S under sequester?

    easy_rider911:
    @bluelines: It's not so much law but rather the philosophy of law (aka jurisprudence).
     
    if you're interested, you could read what are IMO two of the best introductory works on jurisprudence:

    http://www.amazon.co.uk/Central-Issues-Jurisprudence-Justice-Rights/dp/1847030084/ref=pd_rhf_dp_s_cp_9_BJ5Z?ie=UTF8&refRID=0BTXSGWEQS982Z7Z1Z2S

    The above book (which focuses on abstract issues) was written by Nigel Simmonds (a Fellow of Corpus Christi College, Cambridge). He was my Contract Law Lecturer at university, a real gentleman.

    The other book by Professor J W Harris (of Oxford University) summarises all the main legal philosophies:

    http://www.amazon.co.uk/Legal-Philosophies-J-W-Harris/dp/0406507163

    I also found Professor Ronald Dworkin's ideas fascinating Smiley

    Thanks for the references easy! Smiley


    --

    2014 991 Carrera 4S | Dark Blue Metallic | PDK | S-PASM (-20mm) | PSE

    2010 Audi S5 cabrio | Ibis White


    Re: Who would love to have his Turbo S under sequester?

    Switzerland, like others country is nice and pleasant to live but we do have today to many cars for our roads. this is one of the reasons goverment decide to change the fines, getting new laser radar etc...... . but for me there's one way of doing the people driving maybe for slower.

    the normal way and like it should be. The road safety. You put radars, make controls and there are sign saying police control etc.... but you know that you might get in trouble because it's been showned that the police is around.

    Then there is the uncorrect way which is called repression. Hidding in a bush dressed with hunter clothes and pointing a laser, or hidding the car far away from the road, putt the flash and wait to catch each guy been to fast. this for me is really not right.

    Of course the second solution is the most used because it's the one that will work quicker and make good money. but it's just not fair. if i can talk about fairness. I'm not against laws, radars, fines etc... i'm against the way the sentence is shared. A multi recidivist will have a really small punishment because he has already lost everything or has nothing to lose. The one that has never done something, has family and job gets the strongest punishment ever. but well, he has nothing to say and accept the consequences. NO


    --

    Audi TT, Cayenne S, Go kart Birrel, John Deer


    Re: Who would love to have his Turbo S under sequester?

    Cram:

    the normal way and like it should be. The road safety. You put radars, make controls and there are sign saying police control etc.... but you know that you might get in trouble because it's been showned that the police is around.

    Then there is the uncorrect way which is called repression. Hidding in a bush dressed with hunter clothes and pointing a laser, or hidding the car far away from the road, putt the flash and wait to catch each guy been to fast. this for me is really not right.

    Yes, the first method is very efficient for road safety at a specific spot. There are a few spots here in Zürich, for example a 30km/h limited road outside a school, where there is a permanent and well visible radar. No one speeds there. Ever. However, people learn quickly and hence speed before and after the radar Smiley Which is the issue if you only rely on well advertised and visible spot controls which scream POLICE.

    In contrast to the second method which can seem sneaky and purely money driven. I don't think it is. I think it is used as a complement to scare. You never know where they stand, but you do know that they can stand everywhere, hence it makes no sense to speed. Ever. It is frightening tactics.

    If they wanted money they could do like the Germans and install distance measuring cameras. They would make millions and millions with that instantaneously. My impression is that the Swiss rarely speed, but keeping distance is something that they still have to learn Smiley Driving on the highway and you wonder if it is the Swiss National Championship in Tail Gating.

    Then there is the law which is very tough and I do feel sorry for you Cram. It is not meant for a good guy like you Smiley I have been in the situation myself and it truly sucks, but sh*t happens and life goes on. Keep your head high and your attitude positive! Smiley


    --

    2014 991 Carrera 4S | Dark Blue Metallic | PDK | S-PASM (-20mm) | PSE

    2010 Audi S5 cabrio | Ibis White


    Re: Who would love to have his Turbo S under sequester?

    I'm always wary when the State imposes severe punishment for non-violent crimes (eg motoring offences, parking offences etc) since lobby groups will always try to skew government policy and public opinion towards harsher punishment and the victim of such legislation is usually civil liberty. Why? Because road safety lobby groups always get favourable media coverage whereas no one sympathises with motorists and motoring organisations/associations. Also civil liberties lobby groups are more focussed on more serious issues like the death penalty, torture, miscarriages of justice etc rather than the State punishing motoring criminal offences too strictly.


    --


    997.1 C2S GT Silver/Cocoa, -20mm/LSD, PSE, short shifter, SportDesign rims, Zuffenhausen pickup, BMW Z4 2.5i Roadster Sterling Grey/Red


    Re: Who would love to have his Turbo S under sequester?

    what i'm scared of with this new law is that many citizen might get caught or maybe not as many as i think they'll. I do have quiet a positiv on what happen to me and assume my acts but i imagine a person not like me, with family, job etc... losing it for more then two years, ( because for all of us, it's nothing to do with the car that you own and can happen in a fraction of seconds). these or those persons might lose their minds and shut someone.

    What we don't realise with this thing are the consequence that it can do to someone. That's what we should also look after. Not only the fine, you much it will cost etc... but what it does spychologicaly.

    i heard a case lately.  happen to a person around 50 years old, same thing as me. he got his licence gone for 2 years and 1 year jail ( he didn't had to go in) sentence. Lost his job. Get a uge fine etc... over all that his wife decided to divorce and as he could'nt pay the pension for his wife and kids, the wife putt him a proceedings. Can you imagine you strong and serein the guy must be in his had to not shot himself down.  This kind of consequence should the state examine and then act before something really bad might happen.


    --

    Audi TT, Cayenne S, Go kart Birrel, John Deer


    Re: Who would love to have his Turbo S under sequester?

    easy_rider911:

    I'm always wary when the State imposes severe punishment for non-violent crimes (eg motoring offences, parking offences etc) since lobby groups will always try to skew government policy and public opinion towards harsher punishment and the victim of such legislation is usually civil liberty. Why? Because road safety lobby groups always get favourable media coverage whereas no one sympathises with motorists and motoring organisations/associations. Also civil liberties lobby groups are more focussed on more serious issues like the death penalty, torture, miscarriages of justice etc rather than the State punishing motoring criminal offences too strictly.

    Agree.

    I guess it comes down to what defines a non-violent crime. Is driving a car 100km/h on a 30km/h road outside a school non-violent? Is shooting a gun in public in the air non-violent? What if the car hits a person? What if the bullet hits a person? Both actions were conscious by the offender, not meant to harm but the person were killed in both instances.


    --

    2014 991 Carrera 4S | Dark Blue Metallic | PDK | S-PASM (-20mm) | PSE

    2010 Audi S5 cabrio | Ibis White


    Re: Who would love to have his Turbo S under sequester?

    Swiss traffic law penalties are not equitable for all citizens and the harsher penalties are out of proportion to the offense. The personal vignettes that Cram has described are evidence that the laws there are imposing harm beyond financial and jail penalties. For a speeding offenses that do not involve injuries their effect can be beyond draconian. For habitual, reckless offenders it is one thing to jail them for awhile for public safety, for non habitual speeders the penalties should fit the circumstances.

    If you need a drivers license, travel to the US and get a California State Drivers License. No immigration or visa documents are required for any foreigner to get a drivers license there. A Passport or National ID card from any country will do, even a newly proclaimed Caliphate! Stay if you want to, millions of others have.


     
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