Crown

Tesla is certainly high priced as well. Especially given some of the early quality issues. I would not say that all electric motors and batteries are the same though, anymore than I would argue a Ford V6 is the same as a Porsche flat six.  To argue otherwise would be to also say we will not see any increase in performance and efficiency in the future. In fact there are many new variables in play, each of which will improve over time.  Variables like batteries, motor efficiency, charging speed, aero, safety and last but not least automation.  The numbers game to compare brands and features will be much more objective than fit and finish alone used to be. Top end brands will need to have all the best tech and fit and finish as well. Just like today’s expectations. Like buying a phone is more feature and spec biased. You are not going to sell a flashy high quality phone that costs three times as much if it has a poor camera, no memory or poor app support. Any one of those missing disqualifies it no matter how high end.  

Leawood911:

Tesla is certainly high priced as well. Especially given some of the early quality issues. I would not say that all electric motors and batteries are the same though, anymore than I would argue a Ford V6 is the same as a Porsche flat six.  To argue otherwise would be to also say we will not see any increase in performance and efficiency in the future. In fact there are many new variables in play, each of which will improve over time.  Variables like batteries, motor efficiency, charging speed, aero, safety and last but not least automation.  The numbers game to compare brands and features will be much more objective than fit and finish alone used to be. Top end brands will need to have all the best tech and fit and finish as well. Just like today’s expectations. Like buying a phone is more feature and spec biased. You are not going to sell a flashy high quality phone that costs three times as much if it has a poor camera, no memory or poor app support. Any one of those missing disqualifies it no matter how high end.  

The electrical motors are not the main components that will improve. there is already a wide range available, the issue is the battery system, its heat management and how to increase its capacity with limited space. we know how to have 2 days of power reserve on a big power consumer but the space required is half of a home... it is difficult to put a car on top of it.

the charging time time is something which is fairly straight forward as well and depends on the charger capacity hence the grid capacity to absorb significant power demand. Charging in few minutes will probably be the norm, let's say 10 min to have 100kms or so to be able to reach home. You will not see lightning fast charging time in the similar manner as a petrol station. that is not realistic with the engineering and tech available today.

As you say, fit and finish is not enough, tech, hardware will play a important role. If you want analogy with phones, Vertu used to be that phone provider, horrendous price, fancy materials but poor tech...they survived few years but are now in bankruptcy.

GT Lover, Porsche fan

991.2 GT3 manual

Cayenne GTS 2014

Actually, I think software will be the key, not necessarily hardware. Or better: A perfect combo of software and hardware, similar to what Apple is doing. I think Elon Musk recognized fast the importance of software and constant software development. The OTA updates for Tesla cars are genius, all I get from my MBux (considered the most advanced entertainment system in German cars) is map updates and maybe some stability updates. 

I still think that Elon Musk is blowing a lot of hot air from time to time but this blowing of hot air seems to be timed perfectly and it certainly hasn't hurt him. 

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Lamborghini Huracan Performante (2019), Mercedes GLC63 S AMG (2020), Mercedes C63 S AMG Cab (2019), Range Rover Evoque Si4 Black Edition (2019)

A very complimentary test of the Turbo S.

Five Star verdicts from the Autocar are few and far between.

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-review/porsche/taycan

"Porsche....and Nothing else matters"

reginos:

A very complimentary test of the Turbo S.

Five Star verdicts from the Autocar are few and far between.

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-review/porsche/taycan

The Taycan is a very nice and refined car. I was deeply impressed by how the steering, brakes and handling work, even on the track. An excellent achievement by Porsche 

Porsche asks customer to visit their dealer to update the Taycan software. No OTA and even not an email notification , they have sent a paper letter with stamps (!!) I thought Taycan is the best EV on earth but .... 

https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/tech-zukunft/porsche-taycan-software-update-nicht-over-the-air-wie-tesla/

AM

ALDO:

Porsche asks customer to visit their dealer to update the Taycan software. No OTA and even not an email notification , they have sent a paper letter with stamps (!!) I thought Taycan is the best EV on earth but .... 

https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/tech-zukunft/porsche-taycan-software-update-nicht-over-the-air-wie-tesla/

Now for us techies and software lovers, this is really highly disappointing but...typical German. 

My Mercedes updates the software online but only the MBux (entertainment/communications system) software, nothing related to the engine or separate control units. 

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Lamborghini Huracan Performante (2019), Mercedes GLC63 S AMG (2020), Mercedes C63 S AMG Cab (2019), Range Rover Evoque Si4 Black Edition (2019)

RC:

ALDO:

Porsche asks customer to visit their dealer to update the Taycan software. No OTA and even not an email notification , they have sent a paper letter with stamps (!!) I thought Taycan is the best EV on earth but .... 

https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/tech-zukunft/porsche-taycan-software-update-nicht-over-the-air-wie-tesla/

Now for us techies and software lovers, this is really highly disappointing but...typical German. 

My Mercedes updates the software online but only the MBux (entertainment/communications system) software, nothing related to the engine or separate control units. 

Those are considered mission critical components, and I believe the Germans prefer to have those updated in a controlled environment just in case something goes wrong in the update process. Conservative approach.

It's like updating BIOS on motherboards, 99% of the time it goes smoothly and nothing wrong happens, but there is still the odd chance something can go wrong.

I know one of the local Porsche dealers 'bricked' a car when they did a routine campaign update at the shop using the official Porsche laptop and procedures. Ended up have to replace the ECU, on Porsche's expense, after a long time communicating back and forth trying to figure out what went wrong.

ALDO:

Porsche asks customer to visit their dealer to update the Taycan software. No OTA and even not an email notification , they have sent a paper letter with stamps (!!) I thought Taycan is the best EV on earth but .... 

https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/tech-zukunft/porsche-taycan-software-update-nicht-over-the-air-wie-tesla/

Er, what‘s so wrong with a paper letter with stamps? 

I‘d say this shows some style, especially in times like these. 

We're at the point where you can be the fastest or just sound like you're the fastest.



The secret of life is to admire without desiring.

Rossi:

ALDO:

Porsche asks customer to visit their dealer to update the Taycan software. No OTA and even not an email notification , they have sent a paper letter with stamps (!!) I thought Taycan is the best EV on earth but .... 

https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/tech-zukunft/porsche-taycan-software-update-nicht-over-the-air-wie-tesla/

Er, what‘s so wrong with a paper letter with stamps? 

I‘d say this shows some style, especially in times like these. 

You are officially not a nerd now.  

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Lamborghini Huracan Performante (2019), Mercedes GLC63 S AMG (2020), Mercedes C63 S AMG Cab (2019), Range Rover Evoque Si4 Black Edition (2019)

Whoopsy:

RC:

ALDO:

Porsche asks customer to visit their dealer to update the Taycan software. No OTA and even not an email notification , they have sent a paper letter with stamps (!!) I thought Taycan is the best EV on earth but .... 

https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/tech-zukunft/porsche-taycan-software-update-nicht-over-the-air-wie-tesla/

Now for us techies and software lovers, this is really highly disappointing but...typical German. 

My Mercedes updates the software online but only the MBux (entertainment/communications system) software, nothing related to the engine or separate control units. 

 

Those are considered mission critical components, and I believe the Germans prefer to have those updated in a controlled environment just in case something goes wrong in the update process. Conservative approach.

It's like updating BIOS on motherboards, 99% of the time it goes smoothly and nothing wrong happens, but there is still the odd chance something can go wrong.

I know one of the local Porsche dealers 'bricked' a car when they did a routine campaign update at the shop using the official Porsche laptop and procedures. Ended up have to replace the ECU, on Porsche's expense, after a long time communicating back and forth trying to figure out what went wrong.

 

Everyone dealing with software and especially firmware, knows that any update can brick a device but does this mean we shouldn't use OTA anymore? I don't know...

Best solution: A redundant (software) system but I think, cost-wise, we are still far away from this in standard applications and also because such a (second) system adds even more complexity and possible errors. 

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Lamborghini Huracan Performante (2019), Mercedes GLC63 S AMG (2020), Mercedes C63 S AMG Cab (2019), Range Rover Evoque Si4 Black Edition (2019)

RC:

Whoopsy:

RC:

ALDO:

Porsche asks customer to visit their dealer to update the Taycan software. No OTA and even not an email notification , they have sent a paper letter with stamps (!!) I thought Taycan is the best EV on earth but .... 

https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/tech-zukunft/porsche-taycan-software-update-nicht-over-the-air-wie-tesla/

Now for us techies and software lovers, this is really highly disappointing but...typical German. 

My Mercedes updates the software online but only the MBux (entertainment/communications system) software, nothing related to the engine or separate control units. 

 

Those are considered mission critical components, and I believe the Germans prefer to have those updated in a controlled environment just in case something goes wrong in the update process. Conservative approach.

It's like updating BIOS on motherboards, 99% of the time it goes smoothly and nothing wrong happens, but there is still the odd chance something can go wrong.

I know one of the local Porsche dealers 'bricked' a car when they did a routine campaign update at the shop using the official Porsche laptop and procedures. Ended up have to replace the ECU, on Porsche's expense, after a long time communicating back and forth trying to figure out what went wrong.

 

Everyone dealing with software and especially firmware, knows that any update can brick a device but does this mean we shouldn't use OTA anymore? I don't know...

Best solution: A redundant (software) system but I think, cost-wise, we are still far away from this in standard applications and also because such a (second) system adds even more complexity and possible errors. 

 

When I buy a car, I buy it 'as is'. I don't buy a car based on what it might have in the future. By that time something might have already caught my eye and the original car is a goner. I don't consider OTA an important function at all. 

Say the e-Tron, if Audi provide an update to make it go longer on a charge or faster, it will be like cool, and be done with. I bought the car based on the original published spec and performance, and those already met my criteria, if it didn't in the first place, I wouldn't have bought it.

That brings in the second point, if I am already satisfied with the initial release, I am in no rush to get the 'update'. OTA update or update done at the dealer makes absolutely no difference. I can just as well wait for the next annual service to get the update. it's just a city car. A transportation device. I have plenty other cars to drive.

It's very different than say an iPhone update where it adds functions, a phone is indispensable tool in daily life. Adding new function is always good, patching security holes is always good.  A car isn't an indispensable thing, there are plenty of alternatives, from walking to cycling to public transportation to simply using a different car.

I have to admit that I'm an update junkie.  Whenever I get a new computer or phone, the most satisfying thing is actually setting up this thing, especially updating the software. I don't have a clue why I enjoy this but I love it and find it always very disappointing when there are no new software updates available after a period of time.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Lamborghini Huracan Performante (2019), Mercedes GLC63 S AMG (2020), Mercedes C63 S AMG Cab (2019), Range Rover Evoque Si4 Black Edition (2019)

RC:

I have to admit that I'm an update junkie.  Whenever I get a new computer or phone, the most satisfying thing is actually setting up this thing, especially updating the software. I don't have a clue why I enjoy this but I love it and find it always very disappointing when there are no new software updates available after a period of time.

And I am from the other side, corporate IT. if something isn't broken, don't fix it. 

A 'simple' update could turn into a whole week of IT hell in no time. Nice for me to be paid by the hour. But it's a waste of time and money for everyone. 

I doubt that the Tesla owners who have had their OTA updates would ever give them up. The number of significant improvements are continuous and most always very impressive.  Why anyone would not want them and instead buy a new car each time a new feature is introduced is beyond me.  My car has had more new features and improvements added in 8 months that most 4,year refreshes include.  This is not because it was missing anything to start with, it is just what you expect and what you pay for. Hard to not have that once you see how powerful it is. 

Leawood911:

I doubt that the Tesla owners who have had their OTA updates would ever give them up. The number of significant improvements are continuous and most always very impressive.  Why anyone would not want them and instead buy a new car each time a new feature is introduced is beyond me.  My car has had more new features and improvements added in 8 months that most 4,year refreshes include.  This is not because it was missing anything to start with, it is just what you expect and what you pay for. Hard to not have that once you see how powerful it is. 

Powerful is going from RWD to AWD. Powerful is going from no PCM to big screen PCM. 

Powerful is getting a new style steering wheel with better ergonomics.

Powerful is going from 480hp in the 997 turbo to 607hp in the Exclusive.

Powerful is getting one off interior trims in the Exclusive. 

Powerful is going from 305 rear tires to 325. 

Powerful is getting even bigger brake discs. 

Nothing software updates  can excite me. Hardware updates is what can get me going, and no OTA ever can update hardware last I check 

Can a OTA update change the 996 headlights to something other than 996 headlights?

Can OTA updates magically take away the 3.0L twin turbo flat 6 and put in a 4.0L NA 9k redline engine?

Can OTA update turn a Cayenne turbo S without hybrid into a Cayenne turbo S with hybrid?

OTA updates are just a gimmick to mask hardware deficiencies. 

BTW, did you purchase the OTA update that enable rear seat heating? Tesla installed those heating coils in your back seat but wanted you to pay extra for the stuff that's already built in.

Nothing against OTA updates, but it still depends on what hardware is already built in. No OTA update can change my 16 core 3950X into a 64 core Threadripper. 

Whoopsy:

RC:

I have to admit that I'm an update junkie.  Whenever I get a new computer or phone, the most satisfying thing is actually setting up this thing, especially updating the software. I don't have a clue why I enjoy this but I love it and find it always very disappointing when there are no new software updates available after a period of time.

 

And I am from the other side, corporate IT. if something isn't broken, don't fix it. 

A 'simple' update could turn into a whole week of IT hell in no time. Nice for me to be paid by the hour. But it's a waste of time and money for everyone. 

I know...and I still love to take the risk.  Ask my wife, I installed the whole IT and software in her practice and because she works with an idiot medical software provider, I bricked her whole network (one server, seven clients) twice with simple Windows updates and once with a server firmware update for the RAID controller, it took me once around 9(!) hours at a time to fix it because these idiots didn't provide information about what Windows updates are certified for a productive environment and which ones aren't. There was no separate test environment.

I know...never change a running system but like I said before, she is using a specialized medical software and the company doesn't really provide a lot of information because they want their software support contractors to do the job, not the spouses of their clients.  

Why I do it? Their support contractor is very difficult to get a grip on by phone or email and their response time for issues is usually a day or so. Just imagine the whole practice standing still because the computers don't work anymore. It got even worse after they installed the new (mandatory) VPN system. I had to reset it twice or three times a day and resetting the card readers in the process as well, including entering the PINs (two of them per device).

I was thinking about setting up my own little business for helping out medical practices in case of software/hardware emergencies but unfortunately, you need to be certified for this kind of stuff, so no chance. I don't have the time (or the will) to do tons of certifications, just to make a 95 EUR plus VAT per hour. 

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Lamborghini Huracan Performante (2019), Mercedes GLC63 S AMG (2020), Mercedes C63 S AMG Cab (2019), Range Rover Evoque Si4 Black Edition (2019)

One of my recent OTA included track pack 2.0 which lets me go from awd to fwd or rwd. Or anywhere from 100-0% in either direction. Traction control can now also be adjusted from 0-100 % on.  Did not have those choices when I bought them. 
Tesla S owners from 9 years ago still have all the same updates that a new car gets. Even their self driving hardware and computers were updated for free - of course that was in the shop.  Those cars are only losing value because the new ones have had such awesome price drops from 10 years ago.  If you want a good reason for depreciation- that’s the best excuse ever. 

Three year depreciation on. Model 3 has been reported at six percent. Do you think OTA helped with that?  
Do yourself a favor and take a look at the free updates Tesla has provided over the years and ask yourself if the majority of their customers appreciate these?  Does it put pressure on the competition, maybe?  Who wins? Do I want to argue against them?  If you owned a Tesla would you turn them off? Is it smart for Tesla to do this?  
 

It is laughable that automakers should use fear of crippling hardware as an excuse to not execute this function. I can’t believe anyone is thinking of this is an acceptable excuse. This is one reason why Tesla builds its own hardware and software. You will not see ApplePlay or Android in a Tesla for a long time. Eventually they will build a safe shell for these but not a priority in light of the security issues.  Self driving cars need to be on a very high security plane. 

Do keep in mind one of the reason there is so little OTA experience for everyone else is that they did not build the car parts to be part of the ecosystem. Nothing is ready to networked in any coherent manner. Whereas in the Tesla everything is networked - you can joke about the glovebox but it is networked and eventually an OTA allowed for voice control to open it or control it for valet mode.  My track pack update took advantage  of battery, brake and tire temperature sensors which were built in and networked to be displayed along with  g force info and of course tire pressures.  I did not buy it like that. Everything is connected. Until others build with this vision I can see why they have no need to improve their current fleet  is OTA. If they made OTA work then what, they got nobody working on sending you awesome upgrades. They are focused on reasons to make people buy the new an improved model. Zero incentive to make sold cars better for free. Shortsighted, once someone comes along and take the lead to innovate.  

I get that some will argue OTA is not for them.  I call it quirky and perhaps nostalgic (look at the reasons listed, they apply to tech which is impossible to network and integrate) but not realistic in terms of remaining  competitive in a billion dollar market.  Company valuations, especially given tiny volumes of actual cars built by Tesla, make a strong case that they are on the right track.  I would totally agree that the competition has an excellent chance to still beat them because they do have mass production experience BUT they will need to produce better EVs, batteries and software than Tesla to do so. In other words, the will need to earn it and they are not there yet. They will not be able to do as they have been doing. And we will all be the winners , just like the favor McLaren did to supercar buyer. 

Taycan 4S 93kWh battery range test

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VB24iJbusgQ

12:00+ (579Km @ 90Km/h)
16:30+ (425Km @ 120Km/h)

Docs.google TB Tests

https://insideevs.com/news/435978/tesla-model-y-concerning-front-seat-damage/

Can OTA updates fix seat defects like this?

https://insideevs.com/news/438927/bent-tesla-seat-reveals-us-safety-issue/

And here is the follow up on the previous article.

It's more an American Government testing standard issue. For #### sake, the standard test was developed 50 years ago for unbelted occupants. 

Chinese made Teslas have studier seats. European made cars also ahem sturdier seats. 

Whoopsy:

https://insideevs.com/news/438927/bent-tesla-seat-reveals-us-safety-issue/

And here is the follow up on the previous article.

It's more an American Government testing standard issue. For #### sake, the standard test was developed 50 years ago for unbelted occupants. 

Chinese made Teslas have studier seats. European made cars also ahem sturdier seats. 

 

 

So this proves that we should not have OTA updates?  Please explain what one has to do with the other?  I mean, let’s have a logical discussion.   These analogies are priceless but make no sense. 

Have no idea what this all means, or what is optional, etc.  You guys figure it out, debate it...

Wonderbar:

Have no idea what this all means, or what is optional, etc.  You guys figure it out, debate it...

I think it means Leawood and Whoopsy can continue their debate.

If you're scoring, the last two points seem to go to Leawood: OTA updates and paying for things already in your car (which Porsche calls FoD--never begin an acronym with'F' if it involves people paying).

waiting for PDK:

Wonderbar:

Have no idea what this all means, or what is optional, etc.  You guys figure it out, debate it...

I think it means Leawood and Whoopsy can continue their debate.

If you're scoring, the last two points seem to go to Leawood: OTA updates and paying for things already in your car (which Porsche calls FoD--never begin an acronym with'F' if it involves people paying).

😂👍🏼

Finally... Porsche Taycan will be the first car worldwide to get full Apple Music integration.

More details here:

https://techcrunch.com/2019/08/19/porsche-is-integrating-apple-music-into-the-all-electric-taycan/

If you worry about data cost: No worries, 3 years of Apple Music streaming (data) is free!

--

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Lamborghini Huracan Performante (2019), Mercedes GLC63 S AMG (2020), Mercedes C63 S AMG Cab (2019), Range Rover Evoque Si4 Black Edition (2019)

waiting for PDK:

Wonderbar:

Have no idea what this all means, or what is optional, etc.  You guys figure it out, debate it...

I think it means Leawood and Whoopsy can continue their debate.

If you're scoring, the last two points seem to go to Leawood: OTA updates and paying for things already in your car (which Porsche calls FoD--never begin an acronym with'F' if it involves people paying).

 

 

I’m good. Looks like they are implementing some standard Tesla functions and charging you for them. I would assume that any fun or worthwhile OTA upgrade will be milked. My work is done. 
 

You guys debate far too much anyhow... 

We are in a transition phase in the automotive industry. I doubt that auto shows and dealer networks will exist the same way they do now. People already buy fridges and furniture online, this will be the same with cars. If it will be a traditional purchase in the first place.

Whatever one says about Tesla, they brought many changes to the industry. Their sales concept with selected flagship stores is obviously enough for many people to make a test drive and get to know their models.

Look, I’m a hardcore car lover. Been daily driving a Porsche for the last 40 years. 40!  I just got my 911 Turbo back from another coolant leak issue. $3500 down the drain, replacing old leaking hoses. The dealer would have charged double that.  I don’t mind. Been paying those bills forever AND I’m not rich by any measure. These bills really hurt my budget so you know I have been paying my dues and never regretted them vs the fun I have had. What a wonderful car life I have had.  I can be objective like you can’t believe on this topic. I would prefer to sing the praises on ICE cars and pretend they will never go away. 
That said, when it comes to transportation and actual driving fun (not looking good and posing) nothing touches my Model 3. I know the difference and what I’m talking about. Tesla’s valuation does not shock me at all as a result. It is that revolutionary and that good. It makes way too much sense.  You will find few model 3 owners disagreeing with me. 
 

Best advice I can give is take a test drive. If for no other reason but to understand better why these are such good cars. And in no way am I say Tesla’s are the best EV, they may be, but EVs in general are going to be the future. The Taycan is one I am looking forward to testing for certain. Can’t afford it though - that budget goes to My ICE Turbo. 
cheers!

The Audi e-tron GT should be more reasonably priced than the Taycan and it should be out within an year.