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    argument around NBR times car vs bike

    Had a argument yesterday on the Nordschleife times car vs bike and could not find a table with times of bikes - street-cars vs street bikes - which one is faster around the 20 km track ? Does anybody has some times against the SportAuto NBR times of cars ? which one is faster in general ? Smiley


    Re: argument around NBR times car vs bike

    I have no clue about official times for street bikes, but if the bikes present on the touristenfahrten are anything to go by, cars are generally noticably quicker than bikes. They have an advantage on the straights but the lack of speed in the corners compared to the cars is immense...

    I'm guessing around 8'10'' would be a hugely quick time for a bike.


    Re: argument around NBR times car vs bike

    Now that we're on the subject of NBR, what are the experts' thoughts about taking the curb in Hatzenbach? I was discussing this with a friend, he prefers not to take it so the car doesn't get unsettled for the lefthander behind it, whereas I prefer to take it fully, as it positions me perfectly for the next lefthander.

    What's the 'official' consensus on this one?


    Re: argument around NBR times car vs bike

    This might be helpful:

    www.autobild.de/artikel/porsche-911-gt2-gegen-honda-cbr-1000-rr-422642.html

     

    Smiley

    P.S.: Bikes stand no chance on a race track (not only NBR)


    Re: argument around NBR times car vs bike

    MKSGR:

    P.S.: Bikes stand no chance on a race track (not only NBR)


    The corners are the enemies of the bikes Smiley

    The official record (also with Dähne driving the bike) is almost 20 (!!) years old: 7:49 on a stock Honda VFR (RC 30) - that was back in 1993 (certainly faster than any stock Porsche at that time). Since then there was no officially registered new record lap. It is said that in 2008 a GSX-R 1000 (IDM Superbike = race bike on R-Tyres) did a 7:32, but there is no official record of that lap. I'd say today's fastest stock bikes may achieve a laptime halfway between Dähne's record lap and the said race bike's lap (7:40ish).

    Here are some nice Video's (though only BTG, no full laps) showing very fast laps on a 2004 R1 - looks like one needs balls sized like watermelons to do the 'Ring on two wheels at this speed Smiley

    http://www.slidersguesthouse.com/ringvid.htm

    @ Porker: it depends on your car's set-up and on how much you love your car Smiley I prefer to avoid the curb/rattlestones now but I'm still not in love with the new line (the former speed / braking point / turn in point is still stored in my brain Smiley).
    --
     

    public roads: Porsche 987 S Seal/Cocoa, toll road Smiley : Porsche 997 GT3 Arctic/Black


    Re: argument around NBR times car vs bike

    GREAT - thanks for the links......I will use the link from MKSGR to slap his face....

    I knew in terms of braking & cornering the car would be superior - but didn't really found a time comparison of somebody fast on a bike but the article from autobild is perfect for my "agrument"....he will get a beating from me...(not that I could ever do a 7.33....but....)


    Re: argument around NBR times car vs bike

    BjoernB:

    Had a argument yesterday on the Nordschleife times car vs bike and could not find a table with times of bikes - street-cars vs street bikes - which one is faster around the 20 km track ?


    I personally believe that the tire technology on street cars has advanced massively over the last decade. Furthermore, NBR laptimes have become a marketing instrument so car manufacturers have invested a fair amount of time and effort to optimize their cars on this particular track. Cars and bikes might have performed similiarly until ten or twenty years, although they make up their time in very different ways, but that speed difference has increased in favour of four wheels ever since.

    To be fast in the car, you have to know the track and the car´s handling. On the bike, you make up a significant amount of time on the straights, no matter how experienced you are.


    Re: argument around NBR times car vs bike

    Agree Ferdie - however, driving in Switzerland in the alpes you are being overtaken on the straights between two hairpins but I could always break later......if the bike would not be in front of me....Most bikers here are good on straights but nowhere to the limits in the curves. However, the "stammtischdiscussion" we had did not consider this.... 


    Re: argument around NBR times car vs bike

    Porker:

    Now that we're on the subject of NBR, what are the experts' thoughts about taking the curb in Hatzenbach? I was discussing this with a friend, he prefers not to take it so the car doesn't get unsettled for the lefthander behind it, whereas I prefer to take it fully, as it positions me perfectly for the next lefthander.


    PJ is obviously the better source of information on that one. In my personal opinion, both the Hatzenbach and the 2nd right-hand corner at Wippermann can be taken fully as long as it doesn´t unsettle the car. It is interesting to see how the track, especially its asphalt surface, has developed over the years. Obviously, there had been a bump in the Hatzenback corner, hence the decision of various drivers to take the shortcut over the curb.


    Re: argument around NBR times car vs bike

    BjoernB:

    Agree Ferdie - however, driving in Switzerland in the alpes you are being overtaken on the straights between two hairpins but I could always break later......if the bike would not be in front of me....Most bikers here are good on straights but nowhere to the limits in the curves. However, the "stammtischdiscussion" we had did not consider this.... 


    Next step... get yourself a GT2 RS so that they won´t pass you on the straights anymore.

    Seriously though, love your new acquisition. Enjoy it! Smiley
     


    Re: argument around NBR times car vs bike

    Thanks Ferdie, I think I will hardly explore the limits of this one already........if you've driven "normal" cars and change to a RS it's truly a world apart - but this is exactly why I wanted one so badly....of course also the mezger-engine etc....It will be a keeper for me

     


    Re: argument around NBR times car vs bike

    Porsche-Jeck:
    MKSGR:

    P.S.: Bikes stand no chance on a race track (not only NBR)

     

    @ Porker: it depends on your car's set-up and on how much you love your car Smiley I prefer to avoid the curb/rattlestones now but I'm still not in love with the new line (the former speed / braking point / turn in point is still stored in my brain Smiley).

     

    Would you reckon that for FWD's it's preferrable to avoid the curb? Regarding love for the car, if I'd love it that much, I wouldn't take it on the Nordschleife Smiley

    But seriously, curbs are one thing, the carrussel is IMO a lot harder on the car, I tend to stay outside there.


    Re: argument around NBR times car vs bike

    BjoernB:

    ...if you've driven "normal" cars and change to a RS it's truly a world apart - but this is exactly why I wanted one so badly....of course also the mezger-engine etc....It will be a keeper for me.


    Absolutely agree... Did you, by the way, exchange the SLS for it?

    Smiley


    Re: argument around NBR times car vs bike

    BjoernB:Most bikers here are good on straights but nowhere to the limits in the curves. 

    Sportbikes requiere much more talent and experience than a sportcar to drive it fast, and also risk a lot more in case of accident so while its easy to open the throttle on the straight in a bike, normal bike riders leave a much bigger margin for error on the bends and are much further away from the limit there than if they were on a car.

    So also consider that there is a big difference between the lap time in a dangerous track like NBR (high speed and borderd with fences and no scapes) of a pro bike rider than a non-pro, comparted to a pro vs non-pro in a car. And so if we are talking about normal riders, the disadvantage for a bike is even greater and the car will pull a bigger difference on the lap time.


    --


    Re: argument around NBR times car vs bike

    Ferdie:
    BjoernB:

    ...if you've driven "normal" cars and change to a RS it's truly a world apart - but this is exactly why I wanted one so badly....of course also the mezger-engine etc....It will be a keeper for me.


    Absolutely agree... Did you, by the way, exchange the SLS for it?

    Smiley


    No - the SLS was a loaner from Merc Switzerland they gave me for 4 days. Had tremendous fun in it - actually my wife is giving me a hard time as it was automatic and "this one" has a huge spoiler and a clutch she totally dislikes...I have to keep the screw-driver away from here - she already saw the 3 screws on each side....Smiley - but we're still "young" so later we can go for a GT car....


    Re: argument around NBR times car vs bike

    Porker:

    would you reckon that for FWD's it's preferrable to avoid the curb?
     

     

    Judge by yourself, Porker Smiley Actually I never drove a FWD on the NoS Smiley

    Hatz-Curb2.jpg

    Hatz-Curb.jpg

    As for the caroussel: I somewhen simply decided to go slower on the inside (rattle stones) - IMHO there is no grip at all on the outside (I tried it but hated it for the lack of grip/feeling).

    @ Carlos: very well said Smiley To say it with Walter Röhrl's words: it's easy for a biker to be fast with a sportscar, it's extremely difficult for a sportscar driver to do it the other way round.

     


    --

    public roads: Porsche 987 S Seal/Cocoa, toll road Smiley : Porsche 997 GT3 Arctic/Black


    Re: argument around NBR times car vs bike

    Porsche-Jeck:

    @ Carlos: very well said Smiley To say it with Walter Röhrl's words: it's easy for a biker to be fast with a sportscar, it's extremely difficult for a sportscar driver to do it the other way round.

     

    I did not now those Rohrl's words! thats a great phrase! Smiley


    --


    Re: argument around NBR times car vs bike

    Carlos from Spain:

    I did not now those Rohrl's words! thats a great phrase! Smiley

    Smiley If Anne from Norway would be around I'm sure she could refer to this phrase as she used to race bikes and now has fun with her Porsche on the NoS Smiley There are not many bikers driving at the limit on the NoS for the reasons you already mentioned (it's extremely dangerous with a bike), but it always impresses me do observe the very few who have the driving skills and balls to do it. Sometimes (if we know each other) I follow them (with reasonable safety distance) for a full lap just to enjoy the show.
    I took some of them as passengers in my GT3 but I never dared to accept their kind counter-offer Smiley

    My usual excuse is that I have no leather overall with me which is mandatory on the NoS Smiley

    @ Porker: as for the lacking grip on the outside of the caroussell watch this pic - the facial expression of the passenger is priceless Smiley

    karu-aussen.JPG

     

     

     

     

     


    --

    public roads: Porsche 987 S Seal/Cocoa, toll road Smiley : Porsche 997 GT3 Arctic/Black


    Re: argument around NBR times car vs bike

    Porsche-Jeck:

    Smiley If Anne from Norway would be around I'm sure she could refer to this phrase as she used to race bikes and now has fun with her Porsche on the NoS Smiley There are not many bikers driving at the limit on the NoS for the reasons you already mentioned (it's extremely dangerous with a bike), but it always impresses me do observe the very few who have the driving skills and balls to do it. Sometimes (if we know each other) I follow them (with reasonable safety distance) for a full lap just to enjoy the show.
    I took some of them as passengers in my GT3 but I never dared to accept their kind counter-offer Smiley

    My usual excuse is that I have no leather overall with me which is mandatory on the NoS Smiley 

     

    I would think twice before riding a bike on the NoS myself, we are all only human and you start to get exited and surely you end up risking it (and I'm not a pro rider, I don't even ride anymore since my daughter was born), and its happened before fortunately on a safer track with only a wrist fracture as a consecuence, and as you say NoS is not very biker safety friendly a fall could be very serious there... but as a passenger??? over my dead body Smiley

     

    BTW that picture is priceless Smiley


    --


    Re: argument around NBR times car vs bike

    Lol awesome picture! I've experienced that lack of grip first hand...

    18-04-2010-TouristenFahrten0570.JPG


    Re: argument around NBR times car vs bike

    Carlos from Spain: 

    we are all only human and you start to get exited


    Freudian slip ? SmileySmiley Indeed one may "get exited" after getting too excited riding the bike in a too spirited manner there. Danger number one (except for the driver himself) are oil spills on the track - no chance for a biker to stay on the wheels Smiley That risk alone would make it a no-go for me to ride a bike there. I recently had a brown trousers moment in the miss-hit-miss corner (downhill and hanging towards the outside, hence quite tricky in any 911) when the GT3's rear stepped out due to some oil spill on the track - luckily I managed to catch the GT3 (to top the "fun" it's a very narrow stretch of track there Smiley) but a biker would have stood no chance...


    --

    public roads: Porsche 987 S Seal/Cocoa, toll road Smiley : Porsche 997 GT3 Arctic/Black


    Re: argument around NBR times car vs bike

     excellent point too! 


    --


    Re: argument around NBR times car vs bike

    Porsche-Jeck:

     

    I recently had a brown trousers moment in the miss-hit-miss corner (downhill and hanging towards the outside, hence quite tricky in any 911) when the GT3's rear stepped out due to some oil spill on the track - luckily I managed to catch the GT3 (to top the "fun" it's a very narrow stretch of track there Smiley) but a biker would have stood no chance...

    I had the same scary experience in Schalbenschwanz! Smiley  Not much you can do when you drive over oil. Fortunately I was on my cooldown lap when it happened.


    --


    Re: argument around NBR times car vs bike

    By the way: Track Tutor

     mzl.jgqxsiwn.320x480-75.jpg

    Smiley


    Re: argument around NBR times car vs bike

    When I bought my BMW K1200S they were making a big deal about the sub-8:00 'ring time that it did. (7:57) Here's the video BMW was promoting:

    You needs b*lls of steel to try this:

     


    Re: argument around NBR times car vs bike

     That was freaking hypnotizing to watch! I could not take my eyes off the screen... loved it!!!

     

    This means that a current 1000cc R-sportbike with sportier setup, more power and less weight, and street legal semi-slicks could very well do the ring in low 7:40's as P-J estimated earlier. If driven by a pro that is of course 


    --


    Re: argument around NBR times car vs bike

    Just returned from the Ring. Today is (was) Good Friday, which is a bank holiday in Germany.  The gathering crowd of visitors was enormously high. Weather was outstanding. See the pic below :

    But such a high concentration of drivers also produces a high concentration of accidents. I must have counted 20 accidents today at the ring, minor and major.

    Unfortunately at least 3 bikers got injured real badly and needed immediate transportation to the hospital. Just to put it into perspective and establish the relationship to the topic.

    I hope they recover and be well soonish.


    --


    Re: argument around NBR times car vs bike

    Anyone going tomorrow? I'll be there with some friends (RS2, 993 and M3)


    Re: argument around NBR times car vs bike

    omg, who's got an Audi RS2?? That's my dreamcar! Please snap some shots there.

    Have fun


    --

    indeed shifting is ancient technology - so is a fuel burning engine..  I happen to like both :) 


    Re: argument around NBR times car vs bike

    I've got 3 friends with RS2's

    I'll get you some pics/vids tomorrow

    edit: here you go

    DSC03394.jpgIMG_2641_2500breit_fertig-1.jpg


     
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