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    Re: Tesla Roadster

    SciFrog:

    . Teslas are cool with a fresh minimal interior and more efficient (form follows function).

    Teslas look like a mid-sized Ford (model s) or Smiley SUV (model x). They don't look cool to me... More like slightly outdated experiments.


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    What is going on with Tesla EU deliveries in Q4?

    1544306182168image.jpeg

    Smiley


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    lukestern:
    Whoopsy:
    lukestern:
     

     

    This graph didn't even start off with the correct information.Smiley

    Right now on Planet Earth, there is only a select few places that are on renewable energy supply. 80+% of the population is NOT on renewable supply.

    Where I live, it is, we completely rely on hydro dams. Some place have renewable ones as a supplement to the fossil fuel burning power plants, be it wind mills, hydro dams or solar. 

    Did you read my post? My point was that a Hydrogen driven car require three times as much electricity to propell forward compared with a BEV. So the discussion about where the electricity come from and how it is generated is a completely different discussion. The author in the article you linked were initially making big claims about how dirty an EV is and concluded that Hydrogen is the future. So, he bashes BEV and then argue that Hydrogen cars are the future, that consume three times as much of the same electricity...

     

    Your chart is made by EV fanboys trying to persuade others that EV is the better cleaner way. Hence the giant box saying renewable energy. And just start with that box is already wrong, as that's a big giant lie.

    EV's source of energy, and hydrogen for that matters, DO NOT start with renewable energy source 90% of the time.


    --

     

     


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    I'm not a fan of Musk but why the animus against a US car manufacturer (Tesla) by the Europeans? Tesla is not a big seller in Europe and never was intended for now to be. Yet, I read post that are salivating on the prospect of Tesla failing.  I don't get it.yes


    --

    Stress is man made.


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    nberry:

    I'm not a fan of Musk but why the animus against a US car manufacturer (Tesla) by the Europeans? Tesla is not a big seller in Europe and never was intended for now to be. Yet, I read post that are salivating on the prospect of Tesla failing.  I don't get it.yes

     

    Nick, step back couple steps. Disregard Tesla is an American car maker.

    Now look at the interior fit and finish, look at the exterior fit and finish, and then look at the price they are charging.

    It is, and always the same knock on American made cars. The finishing is simply not up to par. Even Hyundai are finished better. That's embarrassing.

    Yes I know the 'performance' is there, most famous American made cars are great straight line cars, but Europeans, actually even RoW, value handling more so than straight line. Straight line performance mostly is an American metric, with the national obsession with drag racing.

    Tesla by itself is a pretty good car, it doesn't need Elon's tweet or speech or whatever, those simply made it worse. IF from tomorrow onwards, Elon STFU, never to say a word in public again, let the car sell itself. The combination of not going to the gas pump, (I wouldn't call it gasoline-less, as electricity mostly are still being produced by burning fossil fuel), serious straight line performance, great packaging for the people package, the car would still sell itself. People are not THAT stupid, they will discover stuff by themselves. The down side of that would be they may not so quickly, and by the same token, Elon NEEDED to say something to prop up the stock price as Tesla has major monetary obligation that needed a high stock price. That's what put a lot of people off, they see the scam. By by not growing so quickly, they will be standing on more solid ground for future growth and not rely on borderline illegal tactics to prop up stock prices. 

    I don't see an end to EV cars, they will be a staying thing. There are enough people that needs a EV car to make that segment permanent. Tesla, despite all the criticism, jump started the cycle. But perhaps a bit too soon, as the technology is not quite catching up yet, but it will. The middle step would have been hybrids, the bridge product between relying on gas pump only and not relying on it completely. Elon tried to kill that in one go, he failed. 


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    Re: Tesla Roadster

    Wow. That’s a lot of passion against Elon. IMHO he has said more things to drop the stock price than to boost it. So much so that one has to wonder if he buys the stock back after he drops it.  Maybe he is edging the shorts. Who knows but the assumption is people care about slightly marginal build quality. That is BS. People care about what they are seen in. Someone who buy a 918, which makes zero practical sense, should be able to get in touch with that concept. If I own a business I care about sales and customers. Tesla has those. Pretty much says it all regardless how much people don’t like it for whatever reason they convince themselves with. 


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    Of course the whole fit and finish argument is BS. First because it is more than good enough. Second because it is not as bad as people infer here. Third because expecting a company that has been making cars for less than 10 years to reach the quality of the best German manufacturers that have been making cars for 50+ years is ludicrous. And fourth because they are going for a complelty different minimalist design and don’t even try to replicate/compete what the others do and fifth, they will get better with time.

    Again, let’s see what others come up with to compete with Tesla. So far, nothing very exciting.


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    Fully agree . The '' lower'' quality finish does not keep the people away from the car . That matters to the ones who are not interested in this car in the first place and need to find justifications . Tesla is a ' concept ' , a whole package that starts with the way you order the car and finishes with the driving . It is a statement, a philosophy  , not just a car . It represents a break off from the main stream , it represents innovation , represents the 21st century . That what people buy . They don't give a second thought about the small details, or the lesser road handling ( that actually is as good as any medium sedan ) as as a whole the car delivers what is expected . The extra powerful feeling coming from the super strong torque will also make them forgive lots of the less then perfect details . 


    --

     

     964 Carrera 4 --  997.2 C2S , -20mm -- 991.2 GT3 RS 

     


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    Oh and you think the interior of a Tesla is at the level of a Hunday, well the Santa Fe I rented for a few days in Miami (not by choice) showed me the exact opposite. I had not driven such a poor vehicle in many years.

    The anti Tesla sentiement here is borderline ridiculous. Can’t help but thinking everyone showing it has a vested interest (either already or in the industry or very annoyed an American company outdid the best car manufacturers in the world, mostly German), one way, or the others are simply not at all the target for Tesla (a sport car lover with no kids for example with an easy commute and living in a condo without possibility to charge a car for example).

    Anyway Tesla (this week, it changes all the time) is laughing all the way to the bank. It’s stock is almost at all time high, they are cash flow positive and are over major production hurdles. On top of it they have a very strong pipeline and will be increasing their base audience dramatically in next 3 years (crossover, pick up truck, road truck, roadster).

    On the other hand, traditional automakers have a huge issue: how to fit the new EV in their current lineup. Porsche is touting you a super cheap Taycan which would destroy their whole non 911 lineup while Audi just puts on the market a super expensive Q5 EV. So far it makes no sense whatsoever and something will have to break (and of course that’s the low price of EV). Marketing wise, it is very smart because it delays some potential Tesla sales. But it is also disingenuous and lying in the face of your costumers, which is not that surprising from a company who just went through the whole dieselgate. Add on top the threat of realignment of car tarrifs from Trump and no wonder the Germans came running to the White House last week. They are the most scared they have been in a couple of decades because they are cornered on every front, none the least being that cars are becoming less of a symbol status and more of an appliance. Who cares how a car handles when you don’t even drive it?

    Say what you want about Musk and Tesla, but they accelerated the changes in the auto industry by a couple of decades.


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    Gnil:

    Fully agree . The '' lower'' quality finish does not keep the people away from the car . That matters to the ones who are not interested in this car in the first place and need to find justifications . Tesla is a ' concept ' , a whole package that starts with the way you order the car and finishes with the driving . It is a statement, a philosophy  , not just a car . It represents a break off from the main stream , it represents innovation , represents the 21st century . That what people buy . They don't give a second thought about the small details, or the lesser road handling ( that actually is as good as any medium sedan ) as as a whole the car delivers what is expected . The extra powerful feeling coming from the super strong torque will also make them forgive lots of the less then perfect details . 

    It seems Tesla customers are indeed rather understanding of the pros and cons of being an early adopter...

    1544376509950image.jpeg

    1544377207815image.jpeg

    1544377231357image.jpeg

    ...completely understandable? Smiley


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    You think Porsche fared better when they had to replace all GT3 engines or when tires are rubbing against the wheel well in their top of the line car?

    These stories are not quite acceptable of course, but how many are there? Stats?


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    Gnil and SciFrog, your balanced comments are spot on.

    @BoxsterCoupeGTS, what's the purpose of posting those tweets? The thing is that every tiny little bit about Tesla get's viral and about everything is posted online and spread by those who just want trash talk Tesla in any given situation. It get's so amplified that it is ridiculous. There are issues with cars from all manufacturers to some extent... the difference is that owners might post about it on some forum, but it's not picked up and spread in tweets, like anything about Tesla.

    Just follow Mark B Spiegel for instance. His full time job is to spread anti Tesla stories like this in his tweets. And he has been shorting Tesla since 2013 and lost millions.. He's really angry about this fact and how wrong he has been... Smiley

    And btw, have you missed the positive comments from owners out there? Those by far outweight the negative nit picking. According to this forum, all these people are fanboys. In reality they are normal happy people enjoying their new fine auto.


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    https://cars.usnews.com/cars-trucks/tesla/model-s

    What am I missing? All the critical reviews have the Tesla as the top luxury model.yes


    --

    Stress is man made.


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    In the USA, they are are the top of reviews AND of sales. Again, bashing what Tesla have already achieved today is dishonest. Tesla has stolen the coolness crown here in the USA and is changing the industry forever. Like I wrote above, some people should be very scared about this.

    Just walk into a tesla showroom and observe. The reaction of the people is something I have never seen in a dealership before.


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    I don't play on stock exchange so the suspicion for stock value is irrelevant for me.

    At the price these cars are sold here, the finish is a joke. period.the paint finish is really poor...for a $100K to $150k car. let's talk about the panel assembly...unacceptable for such a price and don't tell me you pay the price for the technology...I am an electrical Engineer...

    I don't even talk about the cheap interior. nothing wrong with minimalist, this is not the complain but the quality of the material used.

    I do agree that here, it is more fanatics or anti-Tesla guys indecision but generally the same behaviour within circle of friends. It is really a like it or hate it feedback...weird but this is a fact. yes

    I am looking at it from the technical aspect side as I am interested in EV tech especially its engineering.  You do have interesting performance compared to classic ICE cars but the base electrical parameters used is not the best technology (low voltage, higher amperage so bigger batteries, more heat, bigger cables, etc...)  so average level here as well...

    Tesla has a future but only if either the management level up the game to its asking purchase price or level down the price and stay as they are...


    --

    GT Lover, Porsche fan

    991.2 GT3 manual, 991 GT3 2014(sold)

    Cayenne GTS 2014


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    The price of a car is not determined by its production costs plus a constant margin. It's what the market is willing to pay - see 911 Turbo, GT cars and P100D.   Comparing ELVs with ICEs is comparing apple with oranges. Wait until there is some more competition for Tesla, then do a comparison.  Bashing Tesla for what they do as a company is fine for me, but that does not imply that the competitors are any better. In my book Tesla has been more honest than all of Volkswagen. Just my 2ct ..

    Cheers


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    "Elon Musk wants the world to embrace electric cars, even if Tesla goes bankrupt"

    (8 December 2018)

    New York (CNN Business) Elon Musk wants electric vehicles to be successful —even if Tesla goes under trying.

    In an interview for CBS' "60 Minutes," the Tesla CEO and Silicon Valley billionaire was asked about competition from General Motors (GM), which announced last month it's laying off thousands of workers as the century-old company shifts focus to self-driving and electric vehicles.

    Musk appeared unconcerned.

    "If somebody comes and makes a better electric car than Tesla, and it's so much better than ours that we can't sell our cars and we go bankrupt, I still think that's a good thing for the world," Musk told Leslie Stahl during the interview. Clips were shared online ahead of its full broadcast on Sunday.

    "The whole point of Tesla is to accelerate the advent of electric vehicles and sustainable transport," he said. "We're trying to help the environment, we think it's the most serious problem that humanity faces."

    Making EVs sexy

    Tesla was founded in 2003 with a goal of taking on reigning auto giants and convincing consumers that all-electric vehicles can be safe, reliable and sexy.

    By most accounts, it succeeded. Tesla has amassed a loyal fan base for its luxury electric vehicles, and the company is working to reach the mass market. Its newest car, the Model 3, is the closest yet with price points that will start at $35,000.

    Tesla has sold nearly 500,000 cars worldwide, which accounts for about 20% of all the fully electric vehicles on the road today, according to a recent estimate from Navigant Research. 

    Legacy automakers are now making plays for the EV market. Nissan introduced the all-electric Leaf in late 2010. And GM debuted the Chevy Bolt EV two years ago.

    Tesla (TSLA) has outsold those vehicles in the United States, but some experts wonder whether Tesla's reign is in jeopardy.

    Volkswagen recently said it will pour $50 billion into an electric vehicle "offensive" with plans to sell millions of all-electric cars in the coming years. The company will sell luxury EVs under the Audi and Porsche brands, and it could debut mass market cars that undercut Tesla on price, Volkswagen CEO Herbert Diess has said. The company plans to do it by honing its mass-production expertise. 

    Tesla's path forward

    Scaling up manufacturing proved to be difficult for Tesla as it debuted the Model 3. The company suffered months of delays because of hangups on its assembly lines.

    Righting itself cost Tesla millions and required off-beat solutions that bewildered some investors.

    "It was life or death," Musk told Stahl. "Those betting against the company were right by all conventional standards that we would fail. But they just did not count on this unconventional situation of creating an assembly line in a parking lot in a tent."

    Tesla proved some critics wrong with its latest earnings report in October. The company posted a net profit of $312 million, by far its largest ever and its first quarterly profit since 2016.

    But about $9 billion worth of debt bills are due for the company in the coming years, Goldman Sachs said in September. And Musk recently told investors that Tesla does not plan to raise more money to fund its future, even as it introduces new vehicle models and opens factories in Shanghai and Europe. 

    "We certainly could raise money, but I think we don't need to," Musk said in October. "And I think it is better discipline not to."

    In his 60 Minutes interview, Musk also floated the possibility that Tesla may expand its footprint in the United States. He said Tesla "would be interested" in taking over some of the factory space GM said it will abandon during its restructuring.

    The company's current assembly site in Fremont, California, also has a history with GM. The plant was jointly operated by GM and Toyota before Tesla took overin 2010.

    Link: https://edition.cnn.com/2018/12/08/tech/elon-musk-gm-electric-cars/index.html


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    nberry:

    I'm not a fan of Musk but why the animus against a US car manufacturer (Tesla) by the Europeans? Tesla is not a big seller in Europe and never was intended for now to be. Yet, I read post that are salivating on the prospect of Tesla failing.  I don't get it.yes

    Conspiracy theory? Reminds me of another one, related to politics. Smiley Smiley


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mercedes E63 S AMG Edition 1 (2018), Range Rover Evoque Si4 Black Edition (2019)


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    schmoell:

    The price of a car is not determined by its production costs plus a constant margin. It's what the market is willing to pay - see 911 Turbo, GT cars and P100D.   Comparing ELVs with ICEs is comparing apple with oranges. Wait until there is some more competition for Tesla, then do a comparison.  Bashing Tesla for what they do as a company is fine for me, but that does not imply that the competitors are any better. In my book Tesla has been more honest than all of Volkswagen. Just my 2ct ..

    Cheers

    There is a lot of truth in this... Smiley We probably wouldn't "bash" Tesla if there weren't some Tesla fanboys trying to convince us that Tesla is the car to have. Period. Smiley Smiley 


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mercedes E63 S AMG Edition 1 (2018), Range Rover Evoque Si4 Black Edition (2019)


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    Tesla is not « the » car to car IMHO. There are too many variables when it comes down to a suitable car for a household.

    I think many of us here admire for what Tesla has done to the car industry in general, not trying to force feed buying Teslas to everyone... I do not own a Tesla...


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    Yesterday’s 60 Minutes interview with Elon Musk sums up my umbrage with him.  He came across as pompous and puerile yet is the CEO of a $60 billion market cap company.   He never learned from his $20 million fine from the SEC and continued to 1) attack the SEC, and 2) publicly state that he doesn’t intend to honor the terms of SEC agreement.   Those in a government agency have long memories.

    Most striking was the contrast in the final assembly lines with the highly automated lines inside the building with the manual line in the tent.  It is doubtful that quality is consistent across the widely differing lines.  

    https://www.cbsnews.com/news/tesla-ceo-elon-musk-the-2018-60-minutes-interview/


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    Not liking the CEO of a company and as a result rooting for its demise punishes many good hard working people. Musk is a terrible person  but he is a brilliant visionary. This is not uncommon for people of his ilk.surprise


    --

    Stress is man made.


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    He's brilliant, a twit and a pompous dick. But he knows what he's doing for the most part. And many of the things we point to, he honestly just doesn't care about. Tesla isn't his baby, SpaceX is. He wants Tesla to succeed but it's not the driving force in his life and I know he'd rather it not take up so much of his time. Then again he can't walk away and not look like a looser so he doesn't. 

    I do like to point out to people that my wife once dated him and she is now my wife. So regardless of how much time there was in between, my wife dumped Elon Musk and married me. wink 


    --

     

    Past-President, Porsche Club of America - Upper Canada Region

     


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    You just married Amber Heard?


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    Re: Tesla Roadster

    Mithras:

    He's brilliant, a twit and a pompous dick. But he knows what he's doing for the most part...

    I've met my fair share of very successful, yet, horrible people. They can be staggeringly good at what they do and there's no way you can take that away from them, but man, from an interpersonal perspective, such trash.  

    I do like to point out to people that my wife once dated him and she is now my wife. So regardless of how much time there was in between, my wife dumped Elon Musk and married me. wink 

    Smiley  Nice !


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    Whoopsy:

    You just married Amber Heard?

    Well they're both blonde... But I"ve been married to my blonde for 10 years.

    I thought Amber Heard was married to Johnny Depp? Behind the times I guess.


    --

    Past-President, Porsche Club of America - Upper Canada Region


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    SciFrog:

    Tesla is not « the » car to car IMHO. There are too many variables when it comes down to a suitable car for a household.

    I think many of us here admire for what Tesla has done to the car industry in general, not trying to force feed buying Teslas to everyone... I do not own a Tesla...

    Definitely. SmileyI also admire Elon Musk for his vision and his work. Many criticize him and maybe there is some truth in what people say about him but I don't care, this man will go down into history, there is not a single doubt about it. 


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mercedes E63 S AMG Edition 1 (2018), Range Rover Evoque Si4 Black Edition (2019)


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    RC:
    SciFrog:

    Tesla is not « the » car to car IMHO. There are too many variables when it comes down to a suitable car for a household.

    I think many of us here admire for what Tesla has done to the car industry in general, not trying to force feed buying Teslas to everyone... I do not own a Tesla...

    Definitely. SmileyI also admire Elon Musk for his vision and his work. Many criticize him and maybe there is some truth in what people say about him but I don't care, this man will go down into history, there is not a single doubt about it. 

    Shit hit the fan when he once mentioned he did not hate the orange man (enough). For someone concerned about the environment that was a confusing message and landed him on the wrong side of green cool. Careful RC you and I are on thin ice around TDR. 


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    Some analyst on radio yesterday was mentioning something that our European friends might not have realized:

    the Model 3 is now the #1 car sold in the USA in terms of revenue...

    The Germans better wake up because so far their announced products are not competitive enough. “We handle better and our interior is better” is not going to be enough this time. The game has changed.


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    That is because yourr Eurpean friends couldnt care less how it sells in the US indecision, we are different customers than your typical US customer, and so are RoW.


    --

    ⇒ Carlos - Porsche 991 Carrera GTS


     
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