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    Mar 15, 2006 4:12:43 PM

    zzbobaA
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    Audi to sell Lamborghini?

    From today's "auto motor & sport":

    Audi AG is currently thinking about selling Lamborghini for around 400 mill. EUR.
    Audi invested a 3-figure million sum in development and fabrication but revenue isn't as good as they'd hoped for. Neither satisfactory are the car sales.
    (convenience translation by zzboba)

    BTW: Audi answered right away with a press notice, that this news is a premature april fool's day hoax.

    Mar 15, 2006 5:01:50 PM

    easy_rider911
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    Re: Audi to sell Lamborghini?

    Oh no, so Lamborghini build quality will again go down the toilet.

    I guess Audi decided that they didn't want their soon to be released 5L V10 to compete so directly with the Gallardo.

    Mar 15, 2006 7:03:34 PM

    vinnie
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    Re: Audi to sell Lamborghini?



    Very disappointing news There must be another reason because Audi have done a great job designing, making and selling the Gallardo and has turned Lamborghini from making poor quality with poor handling cars into supercars that have rivaled Ferrari. The Gallardo in only 2 years has broken the production record for the company, how can Audi be disappointed with that?
    Check this link from less than 4 months ago:

    http://www.motortrend.com/features/auto_news/112_newss0511228_lambo/

    Mar 15, 2006 7:44:11 PM

    Nick_Athens Offline
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    Re: Audi to sell Lamborghini?

    This are Very BAD news...
    I dont believe the sales is the reason....
    Now is the biggest chance for Gallardo to make sales... As the new 997tt is stil automatic or manual and 480hp, Lambo can make the new Gallardo EASILY 550hp and take a very big market share... (lambo's E-gear has no more problems ) so i dont find this movement logical...

    Mar 15, 2006 8:08:51 PM

    Lazy Cat
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    Re: Audi to sell Lamborghini?

    I don't believe it, but who knows?

    Mar 15, 2006 8:24:10 PM

    Rossi
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    Re: Audi to sell Lamborghini?

    The problem is, although Audi has spent 650 million Euros for Lamborghini over the past few years, they still don't earn enough money with the Italian brand.

    In 2005 they only earned about 4 millions.

    And look at the statistics:
    In 2004 they sold 1215 Gallardo and 377 Murciélago, together 1592 cars.
    In 2005 they sold 1071 Gallardo and 529 Murciélago, together 1600 cars, what means the same as 2004.
    In 2004 the 1592 cars represented a transaction volume of 216 million Euros, in 2005 it was 226 millions, so no change here again.

    Mar 15, 2006 8:37:40 PM

    amir sarmad
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    Re: Audi to sell Lamborghini?

    maybe they should do what porshce did?
    introduce a cheaper priced lambo (boxster) or SUV (cayenne)

    Mar 15, 2006 9:10:52 PM

    amjf088
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    Re: Audi to sell Lamborghini?

    There is a limit to how many of these cars you can expect to sell in a year. The Gallardo lists for $50K more than a 997 TT, and I'm not sure of how many of those Porsche sells in a year... It would seem 1000+ Gallardos would be a pretty impressive number.

    I never really cared for Lambos much, but the Gallardo really changed that.

    Not only is it technically excellent, it is the best looking of the exotics (I would classify the Gallardo as pretty exotic). I went to the Toronto Auto Show twice this year with a different group of people each time. The Ferrari booth was right beside the Lambo booth and without exception everyone I was with strongly preferred the style of the Gallardo (coupe and spyder) to the F430, which is really saying something, as the F430 is pretty darn beautiful too.

    Mar 15, 2006 9:15:29 PM

    WBH
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    Re: Audi to sell Lamborghini?

    Quote:
    Rossi said:
    The problem is, although Audi has spent 650 million Euros for Lamborghini over the past few years, they still don't earn enough money with the Italian brand.

    In 2005 they only earned about 4 millions.

    And look at the statistics:
    In 2004 they sold 1215 Gallardo and 377 Murciélago, together 1592 cars.
    In 2005 they sold 1071 Gallardo and 529 Murciélago, together 1600 cars, what means the same as 2004.
    In 2004 the 1592 cars represented a transaction volume of 216 million Euros, in 2005 it was 226 millions, so no change here again.



    Thx for the stats, Rossi

    Sales vols seem to refute the oft-heard claims that 500hp+; interesting exhaust notes and styling; and great N-ring times are all that's needed to profitably sell comparable volumes vs 430/997TT....perhaps car cos. actually need to sell cars that paying customers, rather than cash-poor dreamers/wannabe racecar drivers, want.....

    IMO, having owned G-car in past (as well as various 430/360), Lambo just can't seem to catch up w/F in engineering a G-car w/such seemingly basic sportscar strengths as: F/P-like steering feel, F/P-like brake pedal feel/fade resistance, useable ground clearance, and an e-gear system as effective as F's ever-evolving F1 trannies.....per the sales data, sounds like many share my views/reached similar conclusions.....

    Mar 15, 2006 9:41:01 PM

    harryo2b
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    Re: Audi to sell Lamborghini?

    It's ok folks...

    http://www.leftlanenews.com/2006/03/15/lamborghini-not-for-sale/

    Mar 15, 2006 11:11:15 PM

    JimFlat6
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    Reply to: Rossi

    Re: Audi to sell Lamborghini?

    Quote:
    Rossi said:
    The problem is, although Audi has spent 650 million Euros for Lamborghini over the past few years, they still don't earn enough money with the Italian brand.

    In 2005 they only earned about 4 millions.

    And look at the statistics:
    In 2004 they sold 1215 Gallardo and 377 Murciélago, together 1592 cars.
    In 2005 they sold 1071 Gallardo and 529 Murciélago, together 1600 cars, what means the same as 2004.
    In 2004 the 1592 cars represented a transaction volume of 216 million Euros, in 2005 it was 226 millions, so no change here again.



    Those numbers show they met their sales targets. Lamborghini's CEO stated last year that they only plan to build 1600 cars a year. 226 million in sales for 1600 cars is pretty healthy money. I seriously doubt if their cars cost even 60,000 Euros a piece to make anyway!

    1600 of anything Lamborghini is a record!

    Mar 15, 2006 11:26:36 PM

    Crash
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    Re: Audi to sell Lamborghini?

    Quote:
    VKSF said:
    Quote:
    Rossi said:
    The problem is, although Audi has spent 650 million Euros for Lamborghini over the past few years, they still don't earn enough money with the Italian brand.

    In 2005 they only earned about 4 millions.

    And look at the statistics:
    In 2004 they sold 1215 Gallardo and 377 Murciélago, together 1592 cars.
    In 2005 they sold 1071 Gallardo and 529 Murciélago, together 1600 cars, what means the same as 2004.
    In 2004 the 1592 cars represented a transaction volume of 216 million Euros, in 2005 it was 226 millions, so no change here again.



    Thx for the stats, Rossi

    Sales vols seem to refute the oft-heard claims that 500hp+; interesting exhaust notes and styling; and great N-ring times are all that's needed to profitably sell comparable volumes vs 430/997TT....perhaps car cos. actually need to sell cars that paying customers, rather than cash-poor dreamers/wannabe racecar drivers, want.....

    IMO, having owned G-car in past (as well as various 430/360), Lambo just can't seem to catch up w/F in engineering a G-car w/such seemingly basic sportscar strengths as: F/P-like steering feel, F/P-like brake pedal feel/fade resistance, useable ground clearance, and an e-gear system as effective as F's ever-evolving F1 trannies.....per the sales data, sounds like many share my views/reached similar conclusions.....



    The DSG could probably be used to replace the e-gear - nothing Ferrari can do to match it.
    As for brake/steering feel, I'm not sure why they can't just hire some former P engineers. If you ask me, Lambo has the funds to make the mince meat of F and P. They just have to use them properly.

    Mar 16, 2006 3:59:27 AM

    WBH
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    Re: Audi to sell Lamborghini?

    With G sales dwn about 12% '05 vs '04, and Lambo only selling 1600 cars/yr (despite heavy disctg by dealers and horrific resale value for many "one-time" custs) vs F's 5000ish/yr sales to a well-entrenched buyer base (esp in US), it's prob difficult for Audi to even find a buyer for Lambo at a face-saving sale price....

    I'd argue marketing battle for Lambo in US has already been lost.....many affluent custs in US mkt would prob rather spend their next $250K for sportscars on another 430 iteration, so they can advance on the even more competitive waitlists for 599 and Enzo 2.0...rather than bet that Lambo may eventually figure out steering feel, brakes, etc in future G/Murci iterations....

    Mar 16, 2006 8:06:55 AM

    Crash
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    Reply to: WBH

    Re: Audi to sell Lamborghini?

    Quote:
    VKSF said:
    With G sales dwn about 12% '05 vs '04, and Lambo only selling 1600 cars/yr (despite heavy disctg by dealers and horrific resale value for many "one-time" custs) vs F's 5000ish/yr sales to a well-entrenched buyer base (esp in US), it's prob difficult for Audi to even find a buyer for Lambo at a face-saving sale price....

    I'd argue marketing battle for Lambo in US has already been lost.....many affluent custs in US mkt would prob rather spend their next $250K for sportscars on another 430 iteration, so they can advance on the even more competitive waitlists for 599 and Enzo 2.0...rather than bet that Lambo may eventually figure out steering feel, brakes, etc in future G/Murci iterations....



    I say it's never too late. If they can get the steering and brakes fixed, the next G car will be a tremendous success, providing the performance is there. The Murci successor should also have these things fixed and there should be a limited production vehicle to compete with the Enzo successor. With these things in place, Lambo could then take on Ferrari at its own game.
    However, isn't it interesting that Nick isn't buying Gallardos instead of F430s? There are less Gallardos than F430s

    Mar 16, 2006 8:47:30 AM

    turbolite
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    Re: Audi to sell Lamborghini?

    One thing is fure sure:

    Mr. Wiedeking has major interest in withdrawing support for Lambo!! Every Lamborghini sold is a missed opportunity to sell a high margin Porsche!!!!
    So no wonder if this discussion is started now, though only as a rumour with dementi. All future products from Lambo are a direct threat to Porsche, the new Espada to Panamera, the SUV to the Cayenne etc. For the first time Porsche has a competitor which has a similiar reliability record as them and they DO feel it!!
    And as far as the production numbers of Lambo is concerned one shouldnt forget that the new Audi Le Mans coupe uses the same chassis as the gallardo, so effectively this platform is used twice. But who knows if the Le mans will do it in the end, maybe they let them build it, but they will have to sacrifice Lambo for it. After all it's easier for P to compete against Audi than Lambo in the high margin biz.

    Thinking about it I find it really disgusting that Wiedeking & co try to play this card. I will stop supporting the P-brand if this happens, that's for sure!

    Mar 16, 2006 8:59:07 AM

    zzbobaA
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    Reply to: turbolite

    Re: Audi to sell Lamborghini?

    Quote:
    turbolite said:
    One thing is fure sure:

    Mr. Wiedeking has major interest in withdrawing support for Lambo!! Every Lamborghini sold is a missed opportunity to sell a high margin Porsche!!!!
    So no wonder if this discussion is started now, though only as a rumour with dementi. All future products from Lambo are a direct threat to Porsche, the new Espada to Panamera, the SUV to the Cayenne etc. For the first time Porsche has a competitor which has a similiar reliability record as them and they DO feel it!!
    And as far as the production numbers of Lambo is concerned one shouldnt forget that the new Audi Le Mans coupe uses the same chassis as the gallardo, so effectively this platform is used twice. But who knows if the Le mans will do it in the end, maybe they let them build it, but they will have to sacrifice Lambo for it. After all it's easier for P to compete against Audi than Lambo in the high margin biz.

    Thinking about it I find it really disgusting that Wiedeking & co try to play this card. I will stop supporting the P-brand if this happens, that's for sure!




    i agree.

    there are a lot of reasons for dumping lamborghini.

    a) lamborghini sales numbers can't be increased as desired, the gallardo showed that. neither can they take a VW/audi platform and put a lambo body onto it, like bentley did with the phaeton. wouldn't convince buyers.

    b) brand isn't nearly as strong as ferrari and never will be.

    c) the lambo sales are peanuts for audi, the necessary investments (especially marketing) aren't.

    d) porsche holds 20% of VW group, and the gallardo is a major threat to the 911 range -- not so much regarding sales numbers, but PR/marketing-wise.

    e) audi is going to release it's own sports cars, but they alsways have to mind not to outplay the gallardo's power. probably this is really getting on their nerves.

    f) IMO the miura "concept" showed that audi has no clue about lamborghini -- this show car was a declaration of bankruptcy of ideas.

    Mar 16, 2006 9:02:02 AM

    Crash
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    Reply to: turbolite

    Re: Audi to sell Lamborghini?

    Quote:
    turbolite said:
    One thing is fure sure:

    Mr. Wiedeking has major interest in withdrawing support for Lambo!! Every Lamborghini sold is a missed opportunity to sell a high margin Porsche!!!!
    So no wonder if this discussion is started now, though only as a rumour with dementi. All future products from Lambo are a direct threat to Porsche, the new Espada to Panamera, the SUV to the Cayenne etc. For the first time Porsche has a competitor which has a similiar reliability record as them and they DO feel it!!
    And as far as the production numbers of Lambo is concerned one shouldnt forget that the new Audi Le Mans coupe uses the same chassis as the gallardo, so effectively this platform is used twice. But who knows if the Le mans will do it in the end, maybe they let them build it, but they will have to sacrifice Lambo for it. After all it's easier for P to compete against Audi than Lambo in the high margin biz.

    Thinking about it I find it really disgusting that Wiedeking & co try to play this card. I will stop supporting the P-brand if this happens, that's for sure!




    Interesting way of looking at it. And one does ask himself - is this the reason they bought such a large part of VW, besides platform sharing?

    Mar 16, 2006 9:19:24 AM

    turbolite
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    Re: Audi to sell Lamborghini?

    d) porsche holds 20% of VW group, and the gallardo is a major threat to the 911 range -- not so much regarding sales numbers, but PR/marketing-wise.



    Gallardo sales are a big threat to Porsche from the finanacial point of view, because it's a lost opportunity to sell a 911 Turbo. P needs to sell approx. eight boxsters to make as much money as on one Turbo, therefore u can see the financial interest to eliminate a high-end competitor like Lambo!! bastards...

    Mar 16, 2006 9:43:01 AM

    amir sarmad
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    Reply to: turbolite

    Re: Audi to sell Lamborghini?

    i have to disgaree.
    1)Porsche would always want lambo to be a company that it has say over. It would not want to allow lambo go free and start aggresively competing against the 911. (keep ur friends close but enemies closer)

    2) from a marketing/business perspective, i would have to say that porshce/VW/Audi would want a larger portion of the sports car market by having lambo on their team. why on earth would they sell it off even if its making 4 million in profit. (u never go broke by making small profits).

    It just doesnt make sense. lamborghini is an automaker that successfully turned around its image.(remember where it was in 1998)

    Mar 16, 2006 10:59:10 AM

    dhayek Offline
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    Re: Audi to sell Lamborghini?

    guys i see you all talking about the brakes of the gallardo ,one of the things that amazed me is the brakes , i found them much better and stronger comparing to the 360. they are 8 pistons 380mm...
    BTW after 2 months of ownership , this car is AMAZING! i havent found a single defect. as for the looks ,i never experienced so many people using their mobile phone cams whenever i pass anywhere. i am trully happy with my choice ,and i hope this audi selling lambo story to be false.

    Mar 16, 2006 11:13:29 AM

    zzbobaA
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    Reply to: dhayek

    Re: Audi to sell Lamborghini?

    Quote:
    dhayek said:
    guys i see you all talking about the brakes of the gallardo ,one of the things that amazed me is the brakes , i found them much better and stronger comparing to the 360. they are 8 pistons 380mm...
    BTW after 2 months of ownership , this car is AMAZING! i havent found a single defect. as for the looks ,i never experienced so many people using their mobile phone cams whenever i pass anywhere. i am trully happy with my choice ,and i hope this audi selling lambo story to be false.



    the question regarding this "will audi sell?"-discussion is not if the gallardo is a good car or not (it sure is a brilliant car!).

    the question is: what is the benefit for audi/VW group?

    IMO lamborghini would only be of interest to them, if they can expect to sell 10.000+ models/year AND can use VW group platforms, like e.g. the golf/TT's for an entry level sports car or the touareg's for a SUV.

    the market wouldn't accept this. IMO lamborghini is all about emotion, about aggression, about being different, futuristic, on the edge...
    and not another rebodied toureg! or a retro-mobile like the miura concept.

    and IF this would work... than they would cannibalize with porsche -- a lamborghini SUV would sure cost the cayenne some market share.

    Mar 16, 2006 11:33:04 AM

    easy_rider911
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    Reply to: zzbobaA

    Re: Audi to sell Lamborghini?

    A good friend of mine just did a driving day. He progressed up the following: Mazda RX8, Merc SLK350, Porsche 996TT, Ferrari F430, Lamborghini Murcielago.

    His view? He loved the ease of driving the 996TT at the limit (or should I say, at HIS limit!). He was left pretty cold by the F430. He said it had great finesse but it didn't excite him. But, the car he fell head over heels for was the Murcielago. He said the power and performance were staggering. He said it looks like a big car so you expect it will handle like a big car. However, he said it felt light and so agile and responsive. Fantastic to drive.

    At the end of the day, do we choose a car because of its prestige, snob value and racing pedigree (e.g. Ferrari) or the 'Oh my God, I nearly wet myself' seat of the pants excitement it generates every time you open the throttle?

    If Lamborghini hold true to this philosophy of exciting all the senses and Audi can keep bankrolling them by selling more A2s and A3s to housewives all over the world, then we should consider ourselves very lucky that a car of supreme beauty and overwhelming performance like a Lamborghini exists in this otherwise tedious and mundane world.

    Mar 16, 2006 11:37:41 AM

    Rossi
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    Reply to: dhayek

    Re: Audi to sell Lamborghini?

    Quote:
    dhayek said:
    guys i see you all talking about the brakes of the gallardo ,one of the things that amazed me is the brakes , i found them much better and stronger comparing to the 360. they are 8 pistons 380mm...



    8 pistons 365 mm front, 4 piston 335 mm rear.

    Mar 16, 2006 11:47:29 AM

    dhayek Offline
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    Reply to: Rossi

    Re: Audi to sell Lamborghini?

    Quote:
    Rossi said:
    Quote:
    dhayek said:
    guys i see you all talking about the brakes of the gallardo ,one of the things that amazed me is the brakes , i found them much better and stronger comparing to the 360. they are 8 pistons 380mm...



    8 pistons 365 mm front, 4 piston 335 mm rear.


    true rossi ,365 8 pistons,thanks for correcting. do you know the size of the 430?

    Mar 16, 2006 11:57:18 AM

    KresoF1
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    Re: Audi to sell Lamborghini?

    Ceramics on F430 are 6 piston 380mm front, 4 piston 350mm rear. Rossi will help with size of normal F430 brakes...

    Mar 16, 2006 4:51:49 PM

    iia
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    Re: Audi to sell Lamborghini?

    Quote:
    Branimir said:
    Ceramics on F430 are 6 piston 380mm front, 4 piston 350mm rear. Rossi will help with size of normal F430 brakes...


    Does it "only" 360mm at the front?

    330mm 4 piston all-around for iron disc brake.

    Mar 16, 2006 5:25:23 PM

    vinnie
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    Reply to: dhayek

    Re: Audi to sell Lamborghini?

    Quote:
    dhayek said:
    guys i see you all talking about the brakes of the gallardo ,one of the things that amazed me is the brakes , i found them much better and stronger comparing to the 360. they are 8 pistons 380mm...
    BTW after 2 months of ownership , this car is AMAZING! i havent found a single defect. as for the looks ,i never experienced so many people using their mobile phone cams whenever i pass anywhere. i am trully happy with my choice ,and i hope this audi selling lambo story to be false.



    The Gallardo won performance car of the year here in Australia 2 years ago, in the article they said the Gallardo has the best brakes we have tested on any road car, ever. They described the Gallardo as a much more exciting proposition compared to a 996tt. The chassis was so competent that it could easily handle more power. Amazing turn around for the Lamborghini Company.

    Ring time for Diablo: 8:05
    Ring time for Murcielago: 7:50.

    Mar 16, 2006 5:53:19 PM

    Rossi
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    Reply to: iia

    Re: Audi to sell Lamborghini?

    Quote:
    iia said:
    Quote:
    Branimir said:
    Ceramics on F430 are 6 piston 380mm front, 4 piston 350mm rear. Rossi will help with size of normal F430 brakes...


    Does it "only" 360mm at the front?

    330mm 4 piston all-around for iron disc brake.



    The 360 at the front was a Ferrari misprint in their very first info about the F430. Correct is 380/6 piston/front and 350/4 piston/rear.

    Standard brake discs are 330/4 pistons all around as said before.

    Mar 16, 2006 6:29:33 PM

    boytronic
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    Reply to: easy_rider911

    Re: Audi to sell Lamborghini?

    Quote:
    easy_rider911 said:
    A good friend of mine just did a driving day. He progressed up the following: Mazda RX8, Merc SLK350, Porsche 996TT, Ferrari F430, Lamborghini Murcielago.

    His view? He loved the ease of driving the 996TT at the limit (or should I say, at HIS limit!). He was left pretty cold by the F430. He said it had great finesse but it didn't excite him. But, the car he fell head over heels for was the Murcielago. He said the power and performance were staggering. He said it looks like a big car so you expect it will handle like a big car. However, he said it felt light and so agile and responsive. Fantastic to drive.

    At the end of the day, do we choose a car because of its prestige, snob value and racing pedigree (e.g. Ferrari) or the 'Oh my God, I nearly wet myself' seat of the pants excitement it generates every time you open the throttle?

    If Lamborghini hold true to this philosophy of exciting all the senses and Audi can keep bankrolling them by selling more A2s and A3s to housewives all over the world, then we should consider ourselves very lucky that a car of supreme beauty and overwhelming performance like a Lamborghini exists in this otherwise tedious and mundane world.



    Spot on! I did this experience and was a big Ferrari fan until I drove the 360 and Murcielago back to back - the 360 disappointed me but the Murcielago was mindblowing, so much so that I actually thought I was dreaming whilst driving it! The only car I found second to that was the 996 Turbo which is a great car though the Murcie really does seem as if its in another league...

    Haven't driven a 430 yet, but don't knock Lambo until you've driven one!

    Mar 17, 2006 9:28:02 AM

    dhayek Offline
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    Reply to: Rossi

    Re: Audi to sell Lamborghini?

    Quote:
    Rossi said:
    Quote:
    iia said:
    Quote:
    Branimir said:
    Ceramics on F430 are 6 piston 380mm front, 4 piston 350mm rear. Rossi will help with size of normal F430 brakes...


    Does it "only" 360mm at the front?

    330mm 4 piston all-around for iron disc brake.



    The 360 at the front was a Ferrari misprint in their very first info about the F430. Correct is 380/6 piston/front and 350/4 piston/rear.

    Standard brake discs are 330/4 pistons all around as said before.


    ah ok ,thats why i felt the lambo brakes so much better than the ferrari..
     
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