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    Settle office argument: car swerves: do what?

    Say you're driving nutty around a turn and you start to lose it because traction is lost from a patch of gravel or moisture.

    You have PSM on.

    What do you do?

    While trying to steer out of it:

    Do you hit gas or hit brake or let off both?


    FOUR WHEEL DRIVE CARS:

    Given all the software involved in powering an individual wheel(s) or braking individual wheel(s) What about four wheel drive Carrera or Turbo, any difference with 4WD?


    Re: Settle office argument: car swerves: do what?

    I would let up off the gas and hope I don't crash. I'm sure this is the wrong thing to do but...

    Re: Settle office argument: car swerves: do what?

    I can't imagine that hitting the gas, when you lose traction because of bad road, is the correct thing to do.

    Re: Settle office argument: car swerves: do what?

    If you completely back off the throttle suddenly or brake heavily you will further unbalance the car!

    The right thing to do is to back off slightly to try & bring the car back within its limits whilst balancing the throttle & applying corrective steering in case PSM hasn't yet been activated!

    Of course thats the theory, if you have lost total control of the car & it is already spinning then you hit the brake pedal as hard as you can & hope for the best!

    Re: Settle office argument: car swerves: do what?

    Quote:
    porkernut said:
    Of course thats the theory, if you have lost total control of the car & it is already spinning then you hit the brake pedal as hard as you can & hope for the best!


    And hit the clutch too. You don't want to be going backwards without pressing the clutch - will try to turn the engine in the opposite direction - not good...

    Re: Settle office argument: car swerves: do what?

    PSM drive me crazy in those situations (OK, always). After decades of knowing exactly what to do the dang car now takes away my throttle and starts to brake (abruptly) various corners of the car. It usually ends up making the turn even tighter than anticipated if you try to help at all. Best thing I can think of is to turn off PSM as soon as you start the car and then drive the car as intended. PSM can make a nice drift turn into a herky jerky turn that makes you look like a you just started to drive. No thanks, I am less likely to lose control when my car is not deciding how I should drive.

    I guess my answer is turn PSM off and then steer/brake or steer and throttle as appropriate. Don't think anyone here need lessons on how to handle understeer or oversteer by now.

    Re: Settle office argument: car swerves: do what?

    In Jan on a snowy morning I was driving to work in my CayenneS, a weirdo was in front of me on the motorway (A40 for those who live in London), I flashed him a couple of times to move over but he didn't so I hit the fast lane that was heavily covered with snow in the notion to overtake him, all of a sudden I lost traction on the tires I must have been doing 80mph and began to swerve. I pressed hard on the brakes but it worsened the swerve, I was quite blessed not to have gone though the barrier. As soon as I took my foot of the brake the car regained a bit of balance and I was able to grind to a stand still.

    Best advice don't press on the brakesand also don't entirely believe in the PSM,4WD gimmick, nothing can oppose the laws of physics (Newton's first law of motion)

    Pray

    Take your feet of everything. Figure out where you want to go. Steer in that direction gently. Brake smoothly if necessary. Then when the car is under control shift to the right gear and accelerate away carefully. Let the electronics take care of the rest.

    Re: Settle office argument: car swerves: do what?

    Have been to another driver ED a couple of weeks ago, featuring extensive use of ESP in severe conditions. First of all the abilities of ESP, just like any other system on a car, are naturally limited. What doesn't sound surprising in theory actually does in reality. The less grip the tires provide, the lower the chance of recovery by ESP. Therefore driving in critical conditions without appropriate preparation (quality and type of tires) of the car.

    The basic principles of vehicle dynamics still remain active, if only to alleviate the system to regain control. Regarding your above given question, it is still required to provide the appropriate amount of countersteer in that situation, otherwise the stability control will waste some more time to solve the issue!

    Some of the instructors advised us not to press the clutch in those situation, reportedly since the stability system would work most efficient with the transmisson engaged. Can anybody clarify this..?

    Re: Settle office argument: car swerves: do what?

    car swerves? depends on whether you have understeer or oversteer.

    Assuming understeer, you need to brake enough to send the weight to the front wheels but not so much that you lose the back end. braking includes engine braking which differs according to car speed and gear selected. If you are in a high gear you may need to add some foot brake to get it back in control. If you're in a low gear you need to be careful as you back off the accelerator so you dont throw too much weight to the front of the car.

    If you are in oversteer its completely different. you need to regain traction at the rear so you must not brake or come off the accelerator. You will also need some corrective steering. Its intuitive to correct the steering but counter intuitive to stay on the gas. I think all drivers should be taught to catch a slide until in becomes second nature.

    Also, when you pray, don't forget to keep your hands on the wheel and your eyes open.

    Re: Settle office argument: car swerves: do what?

    Quote:
    Leawood911 said:
    PSM drive me crazy in those situations (OK, always). After decades of knowing exactly what to do the dang car now takes away my throttle and starts to brake (abruptly) various corners of the car. It usually ends up making the turn even tighter than anticipated if you try to help at all. Best thing I can think of is to turn off PSM as soon as you start the car and then drive the car as intended. PSM can make a nice drift turn into a herky jerky turn that makes you look like a you just started to drive. No thanks, I am less likely to lose control when my car is not deciding how I should drive.

    I guess my answer is turn PSM off and then steer/brake or steer and throttle as appropriate. Don't think anyone here need lessons on how to handle understeer or oversteer by now.



    Ignore this advice. Leave PSM on and NEVER turn it off. The cavalier attitude of thinking that one can do better without it is reckless. After all we do not have 4 brakes (one for each wheel, and additional legs to operate those.

    Re: Pray

    Quote:
    Le Chef said:
    Take your feet of everything. Figure out where you want to go. Steer in that direction gently. Brake smoothly if necessary. Then when the car is under control shift to the right gear and accelerate away carefully. Let the electronics take care of the rest.



    What he said... concentrate on your steering, and adjusting to what the car gives you... Now is not the time to cold-turkey-test the techniques you READ ABOUT somewhere to pull the car out of it like a professional hero.... Nope, now is the time to save yourself, your car, and motorists around you.. Apply gas or brakes if you're heading toward a situation (tree, truck, etc..) and the gas and/or brakes are the immediate solution to avoiding potential death..

    Don't be in a hurry to get all four tires back on the road.... Take however much time it takes to SOFTLY coax the car back to solid ground.. The moment you try to snatch it back onto pavement, you're usually doomed.

    Don't panic, steer through what you started, don't be in any hurry to get all 4 tires back to pavement...

    Re: Settle office argument: car swerves: do what?

    Quote:
    Ferdie said:...
    Some of the instructors advised us not to press the clutch in those situation, reportedly since the stability system would work most efficient with the transmisson engaged. Can anybody clarify this..?



    Agreed. PSM does throttle control, which would not have any effect if the tranny is disengaged. However, if the car spins out of control and turns backwards it would be good to push the clutch to avoid stressing it or killing engine/tranny - but if that happens you may have other problems.

    Guys... drive carefully. We all like to drive aggressively, but we should know the road condition limits AND our limits.

    Re: Settle office argument: car swerves: do what?

    another thing you can try is the "infinite number of straight segments within a curve" technique. Depending on how fast you are going, and the radius of the curve it will be more or less feasible.

    It works like this:
    straighten the wheels for a short segment and brake, then steer back into the curve for a segment slightly better traction at slightly lower speed - then straighten and brake again, and so on. This approach hinges on the fact that - on poor traction surfaces (wet or whatever) - sideways sliding / kinetic friction / turning traction drops off the map significantly faster than straight line braking and control.

    Obviously, this can upset the car considerably, so it can be a bit tricky. If the cause of the loss of traction was (as was originally indicated) loose gravel, moisture, or "black ice". Assuming your not coming in way too hot, or the curve isn't so sharp that you can't chop it up into usable straight segments, this can be useful - especially good on ice - where you (hopefully) are traveling slower than you would normally anyway (on a clear, hot, sunny day).

    recommendations above are good too. The main component of it all is to stay calm and don't over compensate - especially if the problem is temporary (a slick patch).

    Just sharing what I've learned - I hope I don't come off as trying to be an "expert" here - which I am certainly not.

    Drive careful (yes) and practice from time to time where it's safe (and fun)!!

    Re: Settle office argument: car swerves: do what?

    Beyond anything else look at where you want to go!
    If you are looking at the ditch, pole or tree, you will probably wind up in that direction.
    Things will be happening quickly, your internal balance controls and feedback will let you know whick way you are heading. Balancing throttle, braking and steering will hopefully get you out of the situation.

    Re: Settle office argument: car swerves: do what?

    Quote:
    Leawood911 said:
    PSM drive me crazy in those situations (OK, always). After decades of knowing exactly what to do the dang car now takes away my throttle and starts to brake (abruptly) various corners of the car. It usually ends up making the turn even tighter than anticipated if you try to help at all. Best thing I can think of is to turn off PSM as soon as you start the car and then drive the car as intended. PSM can make a nice drift turn into a herky jerky turn that makes you look like a you just started to drive. No thanks, I am less likely to lose control when my car is not deciding how I should drive.

    I guess my answer is turn PSM off and then steer/brake or steer and throttle as appropriate. Don't think anyone here need lessons on how to handle understeer or oversteer by now.



    I totally disagree. I think MOST people around here do need advice (and experience) in trying to deal with over and understeer, especially at high speeds. I also think that PSM is just what is need for MOST people around here for that very reason.

    At high speed, the correct counter maneuvers for oversteer require very quck responses. The correct response to understeer is to redue throttle, which is intuitive, though if you don't do it, PSM will.

    I don't think the original post is asking how to make a nice 4 wheel drift. I think he's asking what to do if control is lost.

    I also think that PSM will help you regain control of your car if you're not a terrific and experienced driver when in a hairy situation.

    I strongly advise not turing it off.

    Re: Settle office argument: car swerves: do what?

    Ever notice this: if you gas the car going straight (just normal driving) and then touch the brake the throttle is closed, IOW, just touch the brake pedal when you're driving normally and the gas pedal becomes inactive.

    So if you are in a swerving situation and you apply gas isn't it reasonable that the car will cut the throttle or apply throttle to power whichever wheel(s) necessary since it is trying to recover?

    Since you are gassing the car it will know you don't want to stop and so will give you enough power (or brakes) to whichever wheels (especially on 4 WD) to keep you going where you are steering?

    Does it also make sense that if you take your foot off the gas totally the car thinks you want to STOP and will not do anything to power any wheel(s) to get you on track?

    If you put the brakes on the car will obviously ONLY use ABS to control wheels rotation to try to regain control. Put brakes on and ZERO power will be applied to any wheel(s)?

    IOW, if you remove foot from gas (or put on brake?) the car will only use ABS to stop car. OTOH, if you give the car gas it will use whatever amount of throttle it needs to _power_ whichever wheels need power to get you where you are steering?

    It's like there are TWO drivers, us and the PSM. If you give indications you need to stop it will brake car only. If you give indications you need to keep driving it will, judiciously, add power (and/or brakes) to whichever wheels need it to keep you in motion as you try to steer toward recovery?

    Sounds crazy? Is this what's happening though?

    If this is so, it seems you should almost NEVER _completely_ take your foot off the gas (unless you are going to slam into something, then use brakes and steer as you pray).

    Seems logical to me but why should logic play a part?

    Re: Settle office argument: car swerves: do what?

    Quote:
    MMD said:...

    Sounds crazy? Is this what's happening though?...



    No. It's far more sophisticated than that. The system uses a variety of sensors (2-axis accelerometers, yaw sensor and path information) to do its job. It's more than a simple closed-loop design, it also uses predictive coding and other stuff. It just works!

    And... please do not fret about it. Let the system work by keeping PSM on and on your side, do not make stupid mistakes.

    Re: Settle office argument: car swerves: do what?

    I've been in such a situation where I found myself with a little too much speed around a corner - I started to understeer at first and then felt all 4 wheels begin to slide, but fortunately the PSM kicked in and adjusted everything nicely. I simply kept the steering in the correct direction and the car almost straightened itself out.

    The DSC in my M3 is good in similar situations that I induce on occasion. If I try to apply too much throttle when exiting a nice turn and the back end becomes a little loose it always kicks in just a tad and fixes everything. In fact, for most turns on the road you can just mash the gas and it won't let you kick out the back for more than fraction of a second before it kicks in and straightens the car out.

    This is why everyone complains that these electronic nannies are spoiling all of the "fun".

    Re: Settle office argument: car swerves: do what?

    Quote:
    yemenmocha said:
    This is why everyone complains that these electronic nannies are spoiling all of the "fun".



    Not everyone. The ones who do complain, when they crash it, or... worse, have no fun any longer.

    Re: Settle office argument: car swerves: do what?

    If you do lose it and the car is spinning, there is only one thing to do... brake... and hope for the best till the car stops!

    Re: Settle office argument: car swerves: do what?

    Took a Skip Barber driving course last year. One of the exercises involved saving the car after it loses control. The car was driven on an open tarmac that was soaked with water. The driver would accelerate to about 35 mph, turn the wheel, and then fully pull on the e-brake. This would cause the car to slide. Saving the car was 100% about steering control. No throttle, no brake. If you failed the save the car (meaning it went into a spin), it was "both feet in" - apply both the clutch and the brake. This particular exercise was my favorite one from the course.

    Re: Settle office argument: car swerves: do what?

    All steering control, both feet off.

    Professionals will try to modulate with little power, but no need to try to be a hero.

    Best advice is to try to slow down as much as possible, braking would upset the car even more, so off both brake and throttle.

    Re: Settle office argument: car swerves: do what?

    PTM on the four wheel cars will keep you car straight.

    For any 997 urbo owners.....drive your car at approx 40-50 km/h swerve the wheel left and right....you will feel the car braking individual wheels to keep that car straight....foolproof....unless THAT button is pushed of course...

    Re: Settle office argument: car swerves: do what?

    Quote:
    ADias said:
    Quote:
    MMD said:...

    Sounds crazy? Is this what's happening though?...



    No. It's far more sophisticated than that. The system uses a variety of sensors (2-axis accelerometers, yaw sensor and path information) to do its job. It's more than a simple closed-loop design, it also uses predictive coding and other stuff. It just works!

    And... please do not fret about it. Let the system work by keeping PSM on and on your side, do not make stupid mistakes.



    Fine I take it all back. I did not want to cause anyone to wreck their car. My advice was meant for people who know how to control a car and who are driving in good weather conditions.

    I drive all year around in my 911 and while I do like ABS I still turn off PSM in almost all conditions unless I forget. There is a good reason why racers and pros want a way to disable PSM in cars they drive.

    I guess if you have never been able to control a car without all that intervention then you need to use it, especially in bad weather. For me it jumps in split seconds AFTER I have decided and implemented the correct plan of action and it hinders my control. It just pisses me off to that extent. Then again I am not foolish enought to drive past the limits of the car and the conditions in the first place except when I want to push the envelope.

    It's OK if you consider my advice poor. I would prefer people make up their own minds. All I can say is I have driven 911 Porsches since I was 15 (now 43) and I have at least 700,000 miles behind the wheel of these cars. PSM is just too slow for me and taking away my throttle is never welcome.

    The best piece of advice I can give is to PASS ON THE LEFT, DRIVE ON THE RIGHT and USE TURN SIGNALS for every more you make.

    I bet many of the folks giving 'driving' advice here don't even bother to signal, or drive in the correct lane. I was shocked, during the recent NorthEast drive I attended, how infrequently the other Porsche drivers signaled and how often they passed on the right, recklessly! Incredible. Do we need DE to learn right of way rules and how to signal?

    Cheers, and drive safe.

    Re: Settle office argument: car swerves: do what?

    The best piece of advice I can give is to PASS ON THE LEFT, DRIVE ON THE RIGHT

    +++ Does this apply in England?

    Re: Settle office argument: car swerves: do what?

    That is such an excellent observation. Sehr gut, Danke schoen!

    OK, so in some places (and not just England, boys and girls) they drive on the WRONG (left) side of the road. In that case do exactly the opposite (but do not signal in the opposite direction). I would not want to give bad advice.

    I bet, in Germany, you pass on the left and never on the right on the Autobahn. Please tell why that works so well. Thank you! Prost

    Is there any reason not to signal properly - every time? What am I missing? Please help me understand?

    Re: Settle office argument: car swerves: do what?

    Also ALWAYS signal when you are getting back in lane after passing. This means even though you took a risk (probably perceived as significant by elderly or nervous drivers) you still have respect and courtesy for the driver you passed.

    Re: Settle office argument: car swerves: do what?

    MMD,
    I never meant to imply to not signal every lane change - even returning to a lane after a pass. In fact I turn on the right turn signal as soon as I pass the front bumper of the car I am passing and then move over as soon as it is safe to do so. Good point and reminder though. You can tell the people who don't use their turn signals for lane changes - when they do use them they leave them on for miles.

    Also, if someone moves to the right, out of the fast lane to allow me to pass, I will always wave a 'thank you' when I signal to return to the right after the pass. On occasion I will wave 'thanks' to someone who passes me correctly as well.

    I would much rather thank drivers for their excellent driving around me than be anoyed by their bad habits.


    None of this has to do with how to correct oversteer or understeer in a loss of traction situation but what good is knowing how to control a sliding car if one does not know how to use turn signals or right of way rules. First things first.

    Re: Settle office argument: car swerves: do what?

    Quote:
    Leawood911 said:
    MMD,
    I never meant to imply to not signal every lane change - even returning to a lane after a pass.



    Exactly. Regarding signal lights we Gotta make these good-driver habits automatic.

    "Most" drivers think people in hot cars are aholes, we gotta let them know _Porsche_ drivers are a cut above.

    It's really nice that Porsches have that "one touch" thing where one touch of signal stalk gives three blinks at lights.


     
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