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    Re: 991 spyshots thread (continued) (for UNRELEASED models only) Thread Closed

    One thing is for certain, they are betraying a lot of the previous GT3 clients, without whom the GT3 would never be were its at.

    Once thing is to offer PDK on the GT3, the more options the merrier IMO (and its a good option to offer for such a car), but deciding that they won't be offering the posibility of the manual as well just like that (which they have said time and time again it what the GT3 is all about, its physoliphy, bla, bla, bla...) is a slap in the face to its GT3 customers, its unloyal and inconsiderate towards them, and arrogant from Porsche. Not a good sign enlightened


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    Re: 991 spyshots thread (continued) (for UNRELEASED models only) Thread Closed

    Think of how many Ferrari owners desired manual in the past, if only for the joy of looking at the shiny metal open gate. Times change and anyway younger people grew up with automatics even on VW Golfs etc.


    --

    "Form follows function"


    Re: 991 spyshots thread (continued) (for UNRELEASED models only) Thread Closed

    Lukas:

    Great pics - thanks! First time I really like the GT3 wing. Might be the angle also. Will look awesome on the finished product!

    That GT3 is definetly wide-body and also have the red stripe covered. Maybe it's the RS or will they change the standard GT3 to be widebody and go with a different approach compared to the 997

    Still think the wheels look bigger than 20", but I might be foold by the images. The brake discs looks to be quite a bit bigger than 991 C2S brakes. Maybe the tyre profile is lower? 25 in the back??

    The wide body looks great to me....it is realy wide angel  The stripe on the rear.....well I'm pretty sure that it won't be a red reflector. Perhaps it's some kind of air intake, or something yes  Rims looks huge....I want to believe it could be 21", but I still think it's 20" with a lower tyre profile as you said. The car looks great and I'm sure it will be amazing machine, but I still don't like the rear spoiler design....enlightened  There were diffirent rear spoiler on the first 991 GT3 mules, I hope what we see on the current mule is not the final product.

    133958419430601.jpg133958419431202.jpg


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    Re: 991 spyshots thread (continued) (for UNRELEASED models only) Thread Closed

    Carlos from Spain:

    One thing is for certain, they are betraying a lot of the previous GT3 clients, without whom the GT3 would never be were its at.

    Once thing is to offer PDK on the GT3, the more options the merrier IMO (and its a good option to offer for such a car), but deciding that they won't be offering the posibility of the manual as well just like that (which they have said time and time again it what the GT3 is all about, its physoliphy, bla, bla, bla...) is a slap in the face to its GT3 customers, its unloyal and inconsiderate towards them, and arrogant from Porsche. Not a good sign enlightened


    --

    Well said. I hope Porsche appreciates the amount of backlash they will receive if they do not offer the manual option. One thing I learned in school that has always stuck with me is the need for differentiation in competitive markets like the auto industry, if everybody is moving to purely PDK style transmissions, some buyers will put a premium on the ability to choose a manual. Not only that, but Porsche can further distinguish itself as being both cutting edge with PDK, while building on its reputation of staying true to its roots and offering a car for the enthusiast. While they continue to expand their product offerings into less sporty segements, they should not forget what makes the Porsche name so valuable, I think continuing to offer manual in a sea of auto/pdk will help them do that.


    Re: 991 spyshots thread (continued) (for UNRELEASED models only) Thread Closed

    If Porsche don't offer a manual I suspect it will be for technical reasons. Although, I cannot think of any 

     


    --

    "Form follows function"


    Re: 991 spyshots thread (continued) (for UNRELEASED models only) Thread Closed

    According to my source chances for manual 991 GT3 and 991 Turbo are slim or if you read between the lines  almost non existing.

    At the same time my source ask me why is it so important to have manual option for those models. He told me that technical limits of previous 997.2 were the key element in preventing Porsche to use PDK for GT models.

    He also wrote to me that PDK is a must for new 991 models and specially for forthcoming GT3 and Turbo. Porsche invested a lot in special version of new DFI engine that will be used in 991 GT3.

    Personally, I am looking forward to see PDK only 991 GT3 and 991 Turbo.


    Re: 991 spyshots thread (continued) (for UNRELEASED models only) Thread Closed

    Yes a GT3 without a manual will suck.  Any 911 without a manual will suck.  Here is why...

    Let me try and explain - based on observations from a recent drive in the Ozarks - winding roads and hard braking in places.  A great place to shift GEARS!

    Picture this -

    As I near a hard braking point I begin braking at the last second (PCCB :-)) and prior to the apex I shift into neutral and then into the gear I will be leaving the corner with - the clutch is still in.  As I trail brake hard into the bend, carfully controlling the force of the PCCB brakes just short of ABS, I let the clutch out in a MEASURED manner to both aid in braking and to cause the car to rotate just that little extra given that it slows down just the rear wheels to let the clutch out.  That precise clutch release as you end braking and prepare to rotate and exit the turn CAN NEVER BE DONE WITH A PDK!  End of story.  Maybe you will never miss it but skilled driver knows the controlled release of the clutch to engage the next gear to be as critical as applying a brake pedal with measured and precise force. 

    Would any of you want an ON-OFF brake pedal? - PDK is an on off clutch.  I am not willing to lose control of one of my favorite pedals.  In terms of shifting fast up through the gears in a straight line - so what - HOW BORING PDK must be.  WHAM, WHAM, WHAM thank you Mam.  I would rather work on my skills at shifting a manual quickly.  I am pretty dang fast with a manual 911, just sayin.

    The ability to release the clutch precisely IS KEY to driving a sports car quickly and with skill.  For me the PDK is like a wheelchair vs walking.  I am not that old and I want to have fun.

    It is looking more and more like I will need to buy that 997.2 GT3.

     

     

     


    Re: 991 spyshots thread (continued) (for UNRELEASED models only) Thread Closed

    Leawood911:

    Yes a GT3 without a manual will suck.  Any 911 without a manual will suck.  Here is why...

    Let me try and explain - based on observations from a recent drive in the Ozarks - winding roads and hard braking in places.  A great place to shift GEARS!

    Picture this -

    As I near a hard braking point I begin braking at the last second (PCCB :-)) and prior to the apex I shift into neutral and then into the gear I will be leaving the corner with - the clutch is still in.  As I trail brake hard into the bend, carfully controlling the force of the PCCB brakes just short of ABS, I let the clutch out in a MEASURED manner to both aid in braking and to cause the car to rotate just that little extra given that it slows down just the rear wheels to let the clutch out.  That precise clutch release as you end braking and prepare to rotate and exit the turn CAN NEVER BE DONE WITH A PDK!  End of story.  Maybe you will never miss it but skilled driver knows the controlled release of the clutch to engage the next gear to be as critical as applying a brake pedal with measured and precise force. 

    Would any of you want an ON-OFF brake pedal? - PDK is an on off clutch.  I am not willing to lose control of one of my favorite pedals.  In terms of shifting fast up through the gears in a straight line - so what - HOW BORING PDK must be.  WHAM, WHAM, WHAM thank you Mam.  I would rather work on my skills at shifting a manual quickly.  I am pretty dang fast with a manual 911, just sayin.

    The ability to release the clutch precisely IS KEY to driving a sports car quickly and with skill.  For me the PDK is like a wheelchair vs walking.  I am not that old and I want to have fun.

    It is looking more and more like I will need to buy that 997.2 GT3.

     

     

     

    Exactly.

    They shouldn't even bother calling it a GT3. And if the GT3 and Turbo don't even have a manual option, I suspect a manual won't be offered much longer on ANY 911. :( 

    Absolutely horrible news, but the 911 is getting more and more watered down (as are ALL new cars) that I bet pretty soon even a manual transmission won't make up for it. Whatever though, we will still always have the astonishing, manual, no frills Porsches of yesteryear. 

    I truly believe the GT3 RS 4.0 was the last of it's kind, and that is a sad thought. I'm sure we'll see a similar model with the 991 generation, but I have a feeling it will be aimed at nothing but comfort for the consumer, and speed for people who buy their car for it to sit in the garage and know that it can go faster than a GTR around the Nuerburgring (but they don't even know what that means). I don't think it will be aimed at those who want too indulge their sense of feel, hearing, smell, and sight will be neglected.

    I really hope Porsche will realize no manual for the GT3 will eliminate a HUGE market for track junkies, and the like, and I bet the used market GT3s will rise in values quite a bit.


    Re: 991 spyshots thread (continued) (for UNRELEASED models only) Thread Closed

    Ahm, I'm going to drop a little bomb here, see how it falls...
    Am I the only one who thinks that PDK (or any double shifted gearbox for that matter) is an unnecessarily complicated solution to a problem?
    Let's get back to the start: ok, we need a gearbox/decoupling between the engine and the wheels in order to make the wheels spin at a different speed than the engine, and we want to make better use of the rev range of the engine.
    Traditionally, this has been done with the gearbox/clutch combination as we know it. The disadvantage is that in order to shift gears, the  engine is de-coupled from the wheels for a while, resulting in loss of traction and slower cars.

    So, to solve this, a long time ago, someone had the idea to combine two separate gearboxes with two clutching systems, so that when one gear is disengaged, another is engaged.

    Now, one car manufacturer actually managed to get it working, and everybody and their dog is imitating the system, maybe with small adaptations, but they are in essence unoriginal ideas.

    Is there not one value engineer who can think outside the box, and come up with an idea that uses an entire different principle? In the meantime, that may solve the whole issue of manual vs automatic shifting, which in the end comes down to personal preference anyway...

    I realize that the story above will probably contain a lot of holes, but I hope you understand the message that I try to bring across, and react to the intention rather than the way the message was formulated

    (and yes, I am a bit cranky because the Dutch team played like a set of grannies, and the German team played wonderful. Gratuliere Nachbarn! wink)


    --

    Porsche, seperates LeMans from LeBoys

    Re: 991 spyshots thread (continued) (for UNRELEASED models only) Thread Closed

    Joost:

    Ahm, I'm going to drop a little bomb here, see how it falls...
    Am I the only one who thinks that PDK (or any double shifted gearbox for that matter) is an unnecessarily complicated solution to a problem?
    Let's get back to the start: ok, we need a gearbox/decoupling between the engine and the wheels in order to make the wheels spin at a different speed than the engine, and we want to make better use of the rev range of the engine.
    Traditionally, this has been done with the gearbox/clutch combination as we know it. The disadvantage is that in order to shift gears, the  engine is de-coupled from the wheels for a while, resulting in loss of traction and slower cars.

    So, to solve this, a long time ago, someone had the idea to combine two separate gearboxes with two clutching systems, so that when one gear is disengaged, another is engaged.

    Now, one car manufacturer actually managed to get it working, and everybody and their dog is imitating the system, maybe with small adaptations, but they are in essence unoriginal ideas.

    Is there not one value engineer who can think outside the box, and come up with an idea that uses an entire different principle? In the meantime, that may solve the whole issue of manual vs automatic shifting, which in the end comes down to personal preference anyway...

    I realize that the story above will probably contain a lot of holes, but I hope you understand the message that I try to bring across, and react to the intention rather than the way the message was formulated

    (and yes, I am a bit cranky because the Dutch team played like a set of grannies, and the German team played wonderful. Gratuliere Nachbarn! wink)

    That's a good way to put it. 

    I hope there is some innovation soon. Lazy, showy consumers, and double clutch transmissions are ruining the sportscar.


    Re: 991 spyshots thread (continued) (for UNRELEASED models only) Thread Closed

    Bad way Porsche enlightened


    Re: 991 spyshots thread (continued) (for UNRELEASED models only) Thread Closed

    Leadwood, I understand your points very well. BUT..Smiley Your observation is purely subjective-not objective at all.

    Imagine good winding road, two 991CS, one is manual with you driving and other is PDK with someone else driving. Both drivers are good, but you are better skilled to use manual gearbox. Who will be faster in the end of that say it 10mls or 16kms winding road? 991CS PDK(with PDK's Sport + auto mode on) of course. Despite your excellent manual gearchanging skills. Do not belive me? Try it and you will see that what I am telling is true.

    My point is that you have to be truly skilled user of manual gearbox(german members here will use a word Kenner) to be maybe as fast as PDK car in say it less capable hands.

    Want a manual 911? There a planty of them on the use market. 997 GT3/GT3 RS used price level will remain good if Porsche offers 991 GT3 as PDK only.


    Re: 991 spyshots thread (continued) (for UNRELEASED models only) Thread Closed

    KresoF1:

    Leadwood, I understand your points very well. BUT..Smiley Your observation is purely subjective-not objective at all.

    Imagine good winding road, two 991CS, one is manual with you driving and other is PDK with someone else driving. Both drivers are good, but you are better skilled to use manual gearbox. Who will be faster in the end of that say it 10mls or 16kms winding road? 991CS PDK(with PDK's Sport + auto mode on) of course. Despite your excellent manual gearchanging skills. Do not belive me? Try it and you will see that what I am telling is true.

    My point is that you have to be truly skilled user of manual gearbox(german members here will use a word Kenner) to be maybe as fast as PDK car in say it less capable hands.

    Want a manual 911? There a planty of them on the use market. 997 GT3/GT3 RS used price level will remain good if Porsche offers 991 GT3 as PDK only.

    Totally agree ! Smiley


    Re: 991 spyshots thread (continued) (for UNRELEASED models only) Thread Closed

    Leawood and other friends here  put a kind of subjective joy and delight from moving the stick and pushing and releasing the clutch pedal above the speed and efficiency of modern DCT. This is very understandable because many of us enjoy things which cannot be rationally justified. 

    The manualists will have a problem with the new GT3 and all the other top performance cars, for that matter, as manufacturers are abandoning MT. Unless, they turn to Lotus or TVR (are they still operational?) which offer manual but are behind in most other areas.


    --

    "Form follows function"


    Re: 991 spyshots thread (continued) (for UNRELEASED models only) Thread Closed

    It should not difficult for Porsche to add PDK "feature" to the 991 7 speed manual gearbox (almost same gearbox as PDK). Like this, you will still have clutch pedal to do manual shift, if you prefer. Or, you can push a switch and use the gerabox in full auto mode (PDK). With the additional bonus that if your battery running low, where PDK function is compromised, you can still shift manually to get home....Smiley


    Re: 991 spyshots thread (continued) (for UNRELEASED models only) Thread Closed

    Depressing news that even the option of a manual transmission will not be offered on the GT3 model.

    More and more, it really feels like the 997.2 GT3, 997.2 GT3 RS and the 997 GT3 RS 4.0 are going to be collector's cars.

    Manual v PDK has been discussed in great detail. IMO there is no doubt that PDK is faster but that does not necessarily mean it is more fun.


    --


    997.1 C2S
     GT Silver/Cocoa, -20mm/LSD, PSE, short shifter, SportDesign rims, Zuffenhausen pickup, BMW Z4 2.5i Roadster Sterling Grey/Red


    Re: 991 spyshots thread (continued) (for UNRELEASED models only) Thread Closed

    Don't get me wrong - PDK shifts quickly.  It may be faster but it is an on-off switch, not ever as smooth as a clutch being controlled by your foot.  I believe my example of not wanting an on-off switch for the brake either is a good analogy and I don't think anyone here would want that.

    Bottom line - a dude in a wheelchair might be faster than me as well but I prefer to use my own legs and run.  I is not at all about being faster it is about driving enjoyment and being in total control. 

    the 911 is losing it - push button parking brake, no spare tire, small fuel tank, soft suspension with junk shocks, and now PDK transmissions replacing manuals.  PORSCHE - WHAT ARE YOU THINKING???

    The old air cooled 911s and 997 GT3s are looking good and will be excellent investments. 

     

     


    Re: 991 spyshots thread (continued) (for UNRELEASED models only) Thread Closed

    Manual vs. PDK is like a typewriter  vs. touch screen.  The first is slower but involves more physical and sensory connections.  The second is faster but more "distant"...


    Re: 991 spyshots thread (continued) (for UNRELEASED models only) Thread Closed

    It's a good analogy. If you only care about the end result, a touch screen is great. But if you enjoy typing (and some writers still do), then nothing beats a decent typewriter. It's all about the physical interaction.

    --

    997.1 C2S GT Silver/Cocoa, -20mm/LSD, PSE, short shifter, SportDesign rims, Zuffenhausen pickup, BMW Z4 2.5i Roadster Sterling Grey/Red


    Re: 991 spyshots thread (continued) (for UNRELEASED models only) Thread Closed

    Many other examples - piano vs. synthesizer.  Accoustic guitar vs electric.  Shoe laces vs Velcro.  Hat vs. Umbrella

     

    My favorite - receeding natural hairline vs. hair transplants!

    Still don't want an on-off switch for my connection to the driveline any more than I want an on-off switch for the brake.

    (BTW, I sitll use an IBM click feel keyboard on the PC - like typing on a PC)

    Did I mention my new Sonata is also a stick shift, so i my ex's G35 Infinity Sedan I bought her - her choice!

     


    Re: 991 spyshots thread (continued) (for UNRELEASED models only) Thread Closed

    I love your piano vs synthesizer analogy. Nice one!


    --


    997.1 C2S
     GT Silver/Cocoa, -20mm/LSD, PSE, short shifter, SportDesign rims, Zuffenhausen pickup, BMW Z4 2.5i Roadster Sterling Grey/Red


    Re: 991 spyshots thread (continued) (for UNRELEASED models only) Thread Closed

    One other point never discussed is cost control. Manufacturers like Ferrrai and Porsche only have to develop ,certify, inventory ONE transmission from now on.

    Also, dealers won't have to worry about managing manual vs " automanual " inventory in the future , which has always been a problem as the new buyer and used buyers' transmission preferences have traditionally been different.


    Ferrari boards said the same thing about the release of the automanual - only 458 : that the last manual tranny in the F430 would help keep its resale strong. Not hapening, the F430 line is depreciting as all V8 models do in the near term. 911 and mid engine V8 Ferrari buyers eventually succumb to wanting that " new car smell ", despite the short term angst posts on the interweb blogs.


    The last real " he-man " Ferrari and Porsches were the ones from the 80s when they were not even available with ABS, power steering , automatic trannys, or traction aids other than an optional LSD.

    Re: 991 spyshots thread (continued) (for UNRELEASED models only) Thread Closed

    MKW:
    One other point never discussed is cost control. Manufacturers like Ferrrai and Porsche only have to develop ,certify, inventory ONE transmission from now on.

    Also, dealers won't have to worry about managing manual vs " automanual " inventory in the future , which has always been a problem as the new buyer and used buyers' transmission preferences have traditionally been different.


    Ferrari boards said the same thing about the release of the automanual - only 458 : that the last manual tranny in the F430 would help keep its resale strong. Not hapening, the F430 line is depreciting as all V8 models do in the near term. 911 and mid engine V8 Ferrari buyers eventually succumb to wanting that " new car smell ", despite the short term angst posts on the interweb blogs.


    The last real " he-man " Ferrari and Porsches were the ones from the 80s when they were not even available with ABS, power steering , automatic trannys, or traction aids other than an optional LSD.

    I don't think that is true. Porsche makes PDK, 7 speed manual, 6 speed manual, an 8 speed tiptronic, and even a manual for the base model Panamera. 

    As a response to KresoF1: Sure the PDK will be faster, but seriously, when was the last time you and a friend were driving on public roads so fast that a PDK transmission mattered? Furthermore, the driver of the PDK will not necessarily be faster because they have no where near as much control.

    I'm sorry, but forget the 991. The analog Porsches of the past (and all old cars for that matter) are worlds better than the modern, watered down crap that is coming out these days.


    Re: 991 spyshots thread (continued) (for UNRELEASED models only) Thread Closed

    Carrara:
    MKW:
    One other point never discussed is cost control. Manufacturers like Ferrrai and Porsche only have to develop ,certify, inventory ONE transmission from now on.
     

    I don't think that is true. Porsche makes PDK, 7 speed manual, 6 speed manual, an 8 speed tiptronic, and even a manual for the base model Panamera. 

    I am talking about what is gradually going to occur over the next few yrs, as far as Porsche 's entire model line is concerned , especially the next fully new generation of SUVs, sedans,coupes,etc.

     

    The  "car nut" who orders a manual -equipped Panamera may not care about the bigger depreciation, but some dealer has to sell that as a used car down the road , and to whom ?

    The new vs used buyer for Porsche cars are not the same.


    Re: 991 spyshots thread (continued) (for UNRELEASED models only) Thread Closed

    My '99 996 was an early build launch edition as well.  No throtle by wire, no traction control - just ABS.  A very fun and quick car with long distance legs.

     


    Re: 991 spyshots thread (continued) (for UNRELEASED models only) Thread Closed

    My experience with 911s has been a bit different than some of what I read about Porsches over the years.

    I recall that when 911s had the lead weights was removed from the front bumper overriders  and the  wheelbase increased a couple of inches in the ''60s,  and  some "purists" mourned the death of real Porsche pusher skills.

    When I switched from the manual steering 74 S I bought in '77, to a 78 SC ( in '79) with power steering standard, I began to appreciate how confused opinion could be. It was a lightweight pure Porsche (ie no AC, sunroof or radio). It got compromised with adjustable shocks, wider wheels and revised geometry for serious track work. Kept it for 30 years, never tired of the ripped metal sound of the sport muffler at high RPMS, or even the sweet smell of oil. Probably would still have it but I tired of no AC or sound deadening, and committed total sin and moved to one of those fake Porsche water cooled Boxters- a "trim special" RS-60 Spyder - with silly stuff like PASM and PSE. It could run rings around the SC. Hell, with minor suspension mods it could embarrass all the air cooled non - turbo 911s and many of the fancier water cooled 911s at the track. It had just about the sweetest shifting 6 speed  the best sounding exhaust that ever graced a tunnel- with (horrors) a the push of a button, and perfect traditional steering feel.

    In my new Carerra S, the steering performance and feel are the best I have ever experienced now that the extraneous twitching of a badly compromised front suspension have been undone with more wheelbase and better geometry front and rear. The car turns in better than the Boxter, way more speed can be carried deeper into turns, and all the good "power down early" feel is there in spades with all that torque. The suspension is so supple that despite being lowered with stiffer springs and sways (PASM Sport) , that the 20 in wheels ride more comfortably that the 19s on the Boxter, and the Sport+ setting is actually useable. It is a total pleasure on the street, what with AC and a quiet interior. The PDK is sliky smooth left alone or shifted manually (except in Sport+ where it does a pretty good imitation of a cup car), and it sounds as sweet as the 78 or Boxter ever did, from idle to its much higher red line.

    But I guess all such experiences are personal.


    Re: 991 spyshots thread (continued) (for UNRELEASED models only) Thread Closed

    Leawood911:

    My '99 996 was an early build launch edition as well.  No throtle by wire, no traction control - just ABS.  A very fun and quick car with long distance legs.

     

    I totally agree with you on that Smiley.


    --
    Happy Driving

    Re: 991 spyshots thread (continued) (for UNRELEASED models only) Thread Closed

    I bought two 911 tiptronic and pdk, if the new gt3 comes in pdk I'm in.

    If  I'm dying for a manual and don't care much about speed I'll go for boxter . I'd rather see 911 on the top compeating with super cars on cover magazines and most talked about.


    Re: 991 spyshots thread (continued) (for UNRELEASED models only) Thread Closed

    Using a clutch to smoothly engage the next gear is called 'Subjective' while at the same time you complain about how the PDK can be jerky at times?  lol

    The differences between the two are totally objective (they can be observed and quanitified) WHICH you perfer is subjective.  What I described was an objective feature of the clutch - the most obvious one at that - the manual control of smooth clutch engagement and how it is critical in high performance driving.

    Like I said, I doubt that you would call going from your brake pedal to an ON-OFF brake a change that is just subjective.

    Funny how some can rationalize things by using terms like subjective vs. objective incorrectly. (so I am calling BS)  I can tell you for a fact that I can release a clutch more smoothly than the PDK - that is not subjective, that is an objective fact.  Just like it is an objective fact that the PDK can do it faster. 

    I prefer to shift - that is a subjective choice.  If you prefer PDK which is also subjectiv then good for you.  Porsche is making a GIANT mistake.  Sorry, that is how I feel.

    I also think that F-drivers are a totally different breed.  They are not interested in shifting gears or driving for that matter. They just want a no brainer, quick car that they will not stall in traffic...  sad

    In the end, the orders the customers will place will dictate the future.  If we accept PDK then all of us will buy it and the manual will go away.  My job is to not let that happen - :-)Smiley

     

    cheers


    Re: 991 spyshots thread (continued) (for UNRELEASED models only) Thread Closed

    2013 Porsche 991 GT3 spy video...

    gt3-1.jpg

    gt3-2.jpg

    gt3-4.jpg

    gt3-5.jpg

    gt3-6.jpg

    2013 Porsche 991 GT3 -- Spy Video Link

    Smiley SmileySmiley


     
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