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    Re: Tesla

    I bet they wrote the same thing about wagons without horses. Oh boy. 
    Who needs to look at safety stats?  Burn that witch. 


    Re: Tesla

    Leawood911:

    Again, I never questioned tires being part of the equation. With current street tires and a good surface along with enough power 2 seconds is easy to 60. We are not asking for 300 mph in 4 seconds.  But as you can see and obviously realize it is totally possible. I would bet Tesla has tested it many times. 
    why not wait and see until someone has an actual car to test with. 

     

    Hmm, you might want to rethink that sentence. Your whole argument against Jason was his math on tire traction.

    Btw, Tesla and testing shouldn't be mentioned in the same sentence Smiley

    If it's easy like you have said, it would have been done already. There are at least 10, if not more, production cars that have the power to do <2 second 0-60 as they are all traction limited. 

    Tire companies have the technology to produce a tire sticky enough to do it, but they AREN'T making such a tire. Not even Elon with his big mouth has asked Michelin to specially make them a street tire sticky enough to do such a run to back up his claims. Like, seriously, a fully charged Model S with seriously sticky rubber on a prep-ed surface can almost smell 2 seconds already. And not even Porsche have asked Michelin to make such a tire, and they are the one that made the fastest 0-60 street car ever, the 918. But they did ask Michelin to make extra sticky rubber for circuit duties and hence we get the Cup R tires. Perhaps those 0-60 times aren't that important anymore, unless it's some Tesla fans hoping for miracles from Elon. 🤷🏻‍♂️

    Maybe there is a reason why car companies aren't asking the tire companies to do one, or perhaps there is a reason why tire companies aren't making one. BF Goodrich did for a while, made some sticky Drag Radials for drag racing purposes. Maybe someone will fit some of those on a Model S and break 2 second on a drag strip, but then again no one did that, not even for bragging rights. 

     


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    Re: Tesla

    I think you are confusing what it takes to go 300 in four seconds and what it takes to go just 60 in 2. But you are always looking for wild analogies. This is not some magical number like the speed of light or even maxV on a rocket launch. We are talking about fractions of a second quicker than what they do now. Stop make my me laugh by using the fact so many others can not do it with ICE engines or hybrid powertrains. You are just adding to the free advertising when every child behind the wheel of a plaid model s does it at every light in your hood.  It’s about tires and superior traction and power delivery of the EV motors.  
    Like I said - let’s wait until we see what they do in real life. Unless you needlessly want to dig your hole deeper which I welcome.  
    It’s going to suck when you end up getting the plaid + but I will be kind. 
     


    Re: Tesla

    You can argue all you want with physics dude. Laws of Physics always wins.

    One needs at least 1.4g of traction on launch in order to do 0-60 in 2 second. 

    There isn't a street tire with 1.4g of launch grip yet. 

    Power isn't the issue, traction is, to get 2 second 0-60. 


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    Re: Tesla

    Whoopsy:

    You can argue all you want with physics dude. Laws of Physics always wins.

    One needs at least 1.4g of traction on launch in order to do 0-60 in 2 second. 

    There isn't a street tire with 1.4g of launch grip yet. 

    Power isn't the issue, traction is, to get 2 second 0-60. 

    You discount EV traction in your thinking. While there is only so much push you can give the tires off the line there is also 10 mph and then 15 20 25 30 35 etc. The Three motor EV will be using all of its power during the entire launch progressively. My little car already makes me ill running right at 3 seconds with around 450 HP.  I can feel that at 10 mph I could use more power and at 25 double the power would be put to good use. By 40 the whole 1000+ Hp would be welcome and useable. So while you are focused on the limited torque and traction and ICE engine provides you forgot your lesson from playing with slot cars as a kid.  

    Anyway - I suggest you watch a dog chase a cat around a slippery kitchen floor.  Neither has very sticky paws but that cat can stop and go on a dime. There is an analogy worthy of your standard. 

    Those g numbers you pulled out of thin air will look pretty silly- I may have to cut and paste some of this proof later. 
     


    Re: Tesla

     "thin air" 

    In denial much?

    It's basic math. There are many online calculators to do the math for you if you don't want to do it yourself. 

    Those so called micro-control you think there is with EV motors is just a marketing term. Proper technical term is traction control btw. My 918 also have those 'steps' in power delivery, it's called the torque and power curve. It doesn't deliver all 887hp and 944lb-ft from 0 rpm, no point as the tires won't be able to take all those power. Sounds familiar? Electric motor's greatest strength is that it delivers it's rated torque at zero rpm, then drops as the rpm builds. With the 'step' power delivery you mentioned, you just proved my point that tire traction is the limiting factor and current tires can't take the full brunt of the electric motors full power from rest. 

    Should I do a mic drop and walk off the stage now?

     

     


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    Re: Tesla

    https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a36364986/sae-updates-refines-autonomous-driving-levels-chart/

    In other news, SAE updated their autonomous driving definition. 

     


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    Re: Tesla

    Whoopsy:

     "thin air" 

    In denial much?

    It's basic math. There are many online calculators to do the math for you if you don't want to do it yourself. 

    Those so called micro-control you think there is with EV motors is just a marketing term. Proper technical term is traction control btw. My 918 also have those 'steps' in power delivery, it's called the torque and power curve. It doesn't deliver all 887hp and 944lb-ft from 0 rpm, no point as the tires won't be able to take all those power. Sounds familiar? Electric motor's greatest strength is that it delivers it's rated torque at zero rpm, then drops as the rpm builds. With the 'step' power delivery you mentioned, you just proved my point that tire traction is the limiting factor and current tires can't take the full brunt of the electric motors full power from rest. 

    Should I do a mic drop and walk off the stage now?

     

     

    https://youtu.be/0SATCAZAudE
    stay tuned folks. Seems that 0-60 in < 2 seconds and 9 sec quarter mile are the latest minimum performance stats.  Are they all full of crap. Have none of these folks tested these cars?  Are they all totally unaware there is a Whoopsy school of physics they have flunked?   
    You may have lost your 🎤. I think you dropped it back there. 
    Good news if you don’t have to buy a Tesla to go that fast. I suggest the Aspark Owl. 


    Re: Tesla

    Leawood911:
    Whoopsy:

     "thin air" 

    In denial much?

    It's basic math. There are many online calculators to do the math for you if you don't want to do it yourself. 

    Those so called micro-control you think there is with EV motors is just a marketing term. Proper technical term is traction control btw. My 918 also have those 'steps' in power delivery, it's called the torque and power curve. It doesn't deliver all 887hp and 944lb-ft from 0 rpm, no point as the tires won't be able to take all those power. Sounds familiar? Electric motor's greatest strength is that it delivers it's rated torque at zero rpm, then drops as the rpm builds. With the 'step' power delivery you mentioned, you just proved my point that tire traction is the limiting factor and current tires can't take the full brunt of the electric motors full power from rest. 

    Should I do a mic drop and walk off the stage now?

     

     

    https://youtu.be/0SATCAZAudE
    stay tuned folks. Seems that 0-60 in < 2 seconds and 9 sec quarter mile are the latest minimum performance stats.  Are they all full of crap. Have none of these folks tested these cars?  Are they all totally unaware there is a Whoopsy school of physics they have flunked?   
    You may have lost your 🎤. I think you dropped it back there. 
    Good news if you don’t have to buy a Tesla to go that fast. I suggest the Aspark Owl. 

     

    LOL Smiley Is THAT what you watch on Youtube? A rehash of factory publicity press releases? With no numbers or calculations or testing to back up? 

    Can you not do any better than that? Come on, we know you can do better.

    Tesla Roadster, that vapourware car? Didn't Elon promised before 2021? We are just 5 months in now.In 2021. 

    Where are the rockets on the prototype? Did the Roadster needed the rockets to do sub 2 second 0-60? DO the spool up time for rockets count when timing the 0-60? Rocket/jet propulsion is one way to take tire traction out of the equation you know, the tires will not be the thing that torque is applied to.


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    Re: Tesla

    Just matching BS video for BS video. 
    I favor my position in this debate. Once again - I’m ready to wait and see. Although, do keep posting as it will turn out even better the more you post. The free advertising for Tesla is lost on you. 
    btw I’m pretty certain all these manufacturers all missed your physics lesson. Do you have a plan for when every teenagers car can do this?


    Re: Tesla

    Leawood911:

    I bet they wrote the same thing about wagons without horses. Oh boy. 
    Who needs to look at safety stats?  Burn that witch. 

    Smiley Smiley


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    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Lamborghini Huracan Performante (2019), Mercedes GLC63 S AMG (2020), Mercedes C63 S AMG Cab (2019), Jeep Grand Cherokee Trackhawk (2019 EU)


    Re: Tesla

    Leawood911:

    Just matching BS video for BS video. 
    I favor my position in this debate. Once again - I’m ready to wait and see. Although, do keep posting as it will turn out even better the more you post. The free advertising for Tesla is lost on you. 
    btw I’m pretty certain all these manufacturers all missed your physics lesson. Do you have a plan for when every teenagers car can do this?

     

    Got it. 

    Anything that's not pro-Tesla is BS.

    Cool.


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    Re: Tesla

    Just to help me keep up with all this, please let me know A, B, or C.

    A. Tesla will make a sub 2 second 0-60 with a 1 ft rollout (really a 5-60 or a 6-60) just as they have claimed and the same way they measure the performance model 3

    B. Tesla will make a sub 2 second 0-60 (no rollout) the same way they measure the model 3 SR+ and model 3 AWD

    C. Tesla will not make the Plaid fast enough to do either A or B


    Re: Tesla

    Gladstone:

    Just to help me keep up with all this, please let me know A, B, or C.

    A. Tesla will make a sub 2 second 0-60 with a 1 ft rollout (really a 5-60 or a 6-60) just as they have claimed and the same way they measure the performance model 3

    B. Tesla will make a sub 2 second 0-60 (no rollout) the same way they measure the model 3 SR+ and model 3 AWD

    C. Tesla will not make the Plaid fast enough to do either A or B

     

    D. Slap on some hot slicks, and uses a prep-ed drag strip, a current Model S 100D fully charged in whatever the hot mode is could already do it. 


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    Re: Tesla

    Whoopsy:
    Gladstone:

    Just to help me keep up with all this, please let me know A, B, or C.

    A. Tesla will make a sub 2 second 0-60 with a 1 ft rollout (really a 5-60 or a 6-60) just as they have claimed and the same way they measure the performance model 3

    B. Tesla will make a sub 2 second 0-60 (no rollout) the same way they measure the model 3 SR+ and model 3 AWD

    C. Tesla will not make the Plaid fast enough to do either A or B

     

    D. Slap on some hot slicks, and uses a prep-ed drag strip, a current Model S 100D fully charged in whatever the hot mode is could already do it. 

    E. In time, with all season tires.  I don’t see tire tech, motor power or computer traction control going in the wrong direction.  I also see many brands doing this, not just Tesla but we may be thanking them for being pioneers to some extent and making the industry more competitive - which benefits not just consumers but the other makers and suppliers. 


    Re: Tesla

    Thanks for clearing up where you stand guys  heart    Carry on  wink


    Re: Tesla

    https://insideevs.com/news/506759/tesla-model3-hyundai-ioniq5-charging/

    Screen Shot 2021-05-12 at 8.56.26 AM.png

    Even Hyundai is charging faster than Tesla now. 180kW vs 106kW is a big gap for Tesla to make up.

     

     


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    Re: Tesla

     


    Re: Tesla

    Whoopsy:

    https://insideevs.com/news/506759/tesla-model3-hyundai-ioniq5-charging/

    Screen Shot 2021-05-12 at 8.56.26 AM.png

    Even Hyundai is charging faster than Tesla now. 180kW vs 106kW is a big gap for Tesla to make up.

     

     

    If you depend on superchargers for more than your long road trips then I don’t recommend an EV. If you have cheap 220 volts 30amp or better power at home then these numbers don’t really play a role. So much about using an EV is not understood by non owners. Not counting Whoopsy of course. He knows this is hardly important as he always talks about charge times are nothing to brag about. 


    Re: Tesla

    Did you not read the recent California survey on EVs?

    A big chunk of first time buyers left the EV market and goes back to normal cars as they have trouble accessing charging. They bought the car, but didn't quite think it through, figuring an EV is just like a normal car where you go to a 'gas station' to charge up quickly and on their way. The reasons given was either they don't have charging at home, they can't charge at home, they can't find public chargers and charging takes too long. 

    All points are the same ones I have bene highlighting forever.


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    Re: Tesla

    https://thehill.com/homenews/state-watch/553188-tesla-driver-riding-in-backseat-arrested-in-california-police-say

    And this, is the mentality of Tesla owners. They blindly believe selective things. mail


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    Re: Tesla

    Whoopsy:

    https://thehill.com/homenews/state-watch/553188-tesla-driver-riding-in-backseat-arrested-in-california-police-say

    And this, is the mentality of Tesla owners. They blindly believe selective things. mail

    Imo level 2-3 autonomous systems should not be approved for public roads unless the manufacturer has fitted the necessary safety mechanisms that would not allow for autonomous mode to operate without the driver's hands on the wheel or easily fool the system into thinking the driver has the wheel. The technology for this is cheap and easy and there are multiple ways to do it.


    Re: Tesla

     

     

    Whoopsy:

    Did you not read the recent California survey on EVs?

    A big chunk of first time buyers left the EV market and goes back to normal cars as they have trouble accessing charging. They bought the car, but didn't quite think it through, figuring an EV is just like a normal car where you go to a 'gas station' to charge up quickly and on their way. The reasons given was either they don't have charging at home, they can't charge at home, they can't find public chargers and charging takes too long. 

    All points are the same ones I have bene highlighting forever.

    Did you happen to catch two big facts in that article. (And already linked in this state of the art thread)
    1) most of the people going back to ICE were not Tesla owners. 
    AND 2) like I said home charging is the key. If you have that then how long it takes is of no matter 99% of the time. Mine charges at 43 mph at home and it sits there doing nothing most of the time. 
    So there is no disagreement at all. If you have home charging I recommend you get a Tesla. It’s like having a gas station at home. Imagine the gas line we had last few days on east coast. No Teslas in these lines.  Driving my car this way costs me 1.4 cents per mile.  I’m at the lake working today because I can afford the $2 in power to drive the 150 miles. Tonight my car will drive me home on the highway. 


    Re: Tesla

    Carlos from Spain:
    Whoopsy:

    https://thehill.com/homenews/state-watch/553188-tesla-driver-riding-in-backseat-arrested-in-california-police-say

    And this, is the mentality of Tesla owners. They blindly believe selective things. mail

    Imo level 2-3 autonomous systems should not be approved for public roads unless the manufacturer has fitted the necessary safety mechanisms that would not allow for autonomous mode to operate without the driver's hands on the wheel or easily fool the system into thinking the driver has the wheel. The technology for this is cheap and easy and there are multiple ways to do it.

    You can’t legislate stupid people. Same argument can be made for speeding and drunk driving. Nothing stops today’s cruise control from running you into a car or tree either. I choose to give people credit to not all be idiots and don’t see a problem with holding the idiot drivers responsible for their behavior rather than look to cripple progress, penalize innovation and cost consumers money and most importantly safety.  These systems are still a lot safer than the few exceptions cause you to have knee jerk reactions to. 
    Give the idiot a ticket. Don’t take away the safety of my autopilot. 
    If people are not following instructions or warning all you are doing is fighting windmills at best and taking away a safety net that actually saves lives if you look at the real numbers of injuries. 
    Reminds me a lot about the gun control argument which can be hard for some to understand. Guns are not dangerous unless you use them wrong else they provide tons of security. 


    Re: Tesla

    Whoopsy:

    https://thehill.com/homenews/state-watch/553188-tesla-driver-riding-in-backseat-arrested-in-california-police-say

    And this, is the mentality of Tesla owners. They blindly believe selective things. mail

    And I hope you understand that the most racist thing you can do it to once again attribute something blindly to a group of people without realizing that it is individuals of all types who do smart and or stupid shit. 
    These blanket insults are over the top.  What you don’t even see is how auto politics have blinded your ability to see people as individuals. I don’t go after ICE owners as though they are some unprotected group of idiots. I make valid counter arguments related to technology without all the narrow minded need to insult. 


    Re: Tesla

    Leawood911:
    Carlos from Spain:
    Whoopsy:

    https://thehill.com/homenews/state-watch/553188-tesla-driver-riding-in-backseat-arrested-in-california-police-say

    And this, is the mentality of Tesla owners. They blindly believe selective things. mail

    Imo level 2-3 autonomous systems should not be approved for public roads unless the manufacturer has fitted the necessary safety mechanisms that would not allow for autonomous mode to operate without the driver's hands on the wheel or easily fool the system into thinking the driver has the wheel. The technology for this is cheap and easy and there are multiple ways to do it.

    You can’t legislate stupid people. Same argument can be made for speeding and drunk driving. Nothing stops today’s cruise control from running you into a car or tree either. I choose to give people credit to not all be idiots and don’t see a problem with holding the idiot drivers responsible for their behavior rather than look to cripple progress, penalize innovation and cost consumers money and most importantly safety.  These systems are still a lot safer than the few exceptions cause you to have knee jerk reactions to. 
    Give the idiot a ticket. Don’t take away the safety of my autopilot. 
    If people are not following instructions or warning all you are doing is fighting windmills at best and taking away a safety net that actually saves lives if you look at the real numbers of injuries. 
    Reminds me a lot about the gun control argument which can be hard for some to understand. Guns are not dangerous unless you use them wrong else they provide tons of security. 

     

    Carlos didn't say taking it away, he said adding fail safes. You get to keep your cruise control system, but a driver monitor system is implemented to make sure the driver IS paying attention to the road.

    Not unlike having a safety switch on guns. You can still fire the gun, after you flip the safety. 

     


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    Re: Tesla

    Leawood911: Give the idiot a ticket. Don’t take away the safety of my autopilot. 

    Giving the idiot a ticket after he crashed into oncoming traffic won't help the people in the other car much, and no one is taking away the safety of autopilot, being able to jump into the back seat while still engaged or taking a nap is not a safety feature. 

    A system preventing misuse of autopilot is a win win for everybody, the responsible driver wont notice a difference and it will be safer for the drivers sharing the road. The only ones that would loose are manufacturers looking to portray their systems as self-dring when they are not or selling level 2 systems to people who want to use them as level 4-5 systems, and those people.


    Re: Tesla

    I give up. By all means try to outsmart idiots. (Who is the idiot in that case). 
    As soon as one check is implemented another hack comes along. The reason the Cadillac super cruise system does not have stories of people in the backseat yet is not because it can’t be fooled but because it is not that confidence inspiring. 
    What is lost is the Tesla did not crash in this case like every other car would have. Lol. 
    The old claim that Tesla owners don’t know it is a level 2 system is lame nor does Tesla make any claim other than that. There are clear warnings each time you turn on the system. So much of this hype is directed at those who don’t have any Tesla or EV experience in order to keep them from thinking about it and of course to get the group think and bias fired up. 
    Anytime You see organized animosity ask who has the big media machine?  Is it the massive auto industry who has billions of advertising $ feeding the media or a grassroots organized tiny bunch of owners who like a car that does not even advertise?  How evil is this small group of ordinary well healed drivers?  Hmmmm?  Who has billions at stake and might be tempted to not give Tesla good press?

    This is as in your face obvious as the media and big government against lower taxes and school choice. Not everything bad about Tesla is true and not everything a Tesla owner says which is positive is due to brainwashing.  


    Re: Tesla

    “Elon Musk says Tesla will no longer accept bitcoin due to fossil fuel use”

    Digital currency, which is made with an energy-intensive process, falls 17% after the tweet

    (13 May 2021)

    Tesla has suspended customers’ use of bitcoin to purchase its vehicles, Elon Musk said on Wednesday, citing concerns about the use of fossil fuel for bitcoin mining.

    Bitcoin, the world’s biggest digital currency, fell almost 17% after the tweet to its lowest point since the beginning of March. It recovered slightly in Asian trading but was still off 12% at $50,933 early on Thursday morning. 

    Musk said Tesla would not sell any bitcoin, and intends to use bitcoin for transactions as soon as mining transitions to more sustainable energy.

    “We are also looking at other cryptocurrencies that use <1% of bitcoin’s energy/transaction,” Musk said.

    Musk said in March that Tesla customers can buy its electric vehicles with bitcoin.

    The digital currency is created when high-powered computers compete against other machines to solve complex mathematical puzzles, an energy-intensive process that currently often relies on electricity generated with fossil fuels, particularly coal.

    At current rates, such bitcoin “mining” devours about the same amount of energy annually as the Netherlands did in 2019, the latest available data from the University of Cambridge and the International Energy Agency shows.

    Tesla revealed in February it had bought $1.5bn of bitcoin, before it began accepting it as payment for cars in March, driving a roughly 20% surge in the world’s most widely held cryptocurrency.

    Musk on Wednesday said Tesla would not sell any bitcoin, and intends to use bitcoin for transactions as soon as mining transitions to more sustainable energy.

    On Wednesday, Edward Moya, a senior market analyst at currency trading firm OANDA, said that Musk was getting ahead of investors focused on sustainability.

    “The environmental impact from mining bitcoins was one of the biggest risks for the entire crypto market,” Moya said. “Over the past couple of months, everyone disregarded news that bitcoin uses more electricity than Argentina and Norway.”

    Chris Weston, head of research at broker Pepperstone in Melbourne, said Musk’s reaction was a blow to bitcoin but an acknowledgement of the currency’s carbon footprint.

    “Tesla has got an image of being environmentally friendly and bitcoin clearly is the opposite of that,” Weston said.

    Musk himself is a strong believer in digital currencies while also advocating for clean technology.

    “Cryptocurrency is a good idea on many levels and we believe it has a promising future, but this cannot come at great cost to the environment,” Musk said.

    The dominance of Chinese bitcoin miners and lack of motivation to swap cheap fossil fuels for more expensive renewables could mean there are few quick fixes to the emissions problem.

    Chinese miners account for about 70% of bitcoin production, data from the University of Cambridge’s Centre for Alternative Finance shows. They tend to use renewable energy – mostly hydropower – during the rainy summer months, but fossil fuels – primarily coal – for the rest of the year.

    In theory, blockchain analysis firms say, it is possible to track the source of bitcoin, raising the possibility that a premium could be charged for green bitcoin. Stronger climate change policies by governments around the world might also help.

    Some bitcoin proponents note that the existing financial system – with its millions of employees and computers in air-conditioned offices – uses large amounts of energy, too.

    Musk has been a fan of other cryptocurrencies, firing off tweets this year that have made the once-obscure digital currency dogecoin well known. Musk said on Sunday that his commercial rocket company SpaceX will be accepting the meme-inspired cryptocurrency as payment to launch a lunar mission next year.

    Link: https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2021/may/12/elon-musk-tesla-bitcoin

    Smiley


    Re: Tesla

    Leawood911:

    I give up. By all means try to outsmart idiots. (Who is the idiot in that case). 
    As soon as one check is implemented another hack comes along. The reason the Cadillac super cruise system does not have stories of people in the backseat yet is not because it can’t be fooled but because it is not that confidence inspiring. 
    What is lost is the Tesla did not crash in this case like every other car would have. Lol. 
    The old claim that Tesla owners don’t know it is a level 2 system is lame nor does Tesla make any claim other than that. There are clear warnings each time you turn on the system. So much of this hype is directed at those who don’t have any Tesla or EV experience in order to keep them from thinking about it and of course to get the group think and bias fired up. 
    Anytime You see organized animosity ask who has the big media machine?  Is it the massive auto industry who has billions of advertising $ feeding the media or a grassroots organized tiny bunch of owners who like a car that does not even advertise?  How evil is this small group of ordinary well healed drivers?  Hmmmm?  Who has billions at stake and might be tempted to not give Tesla good press?

    This is as in your face obvious as the media and big government against lower taxes and school choice. Not everything bad about Tesla is true and not everything a Tesla owner says which is positive is due to brainwashing.  

    But you're now generalizing and I'm not, the problem is not with the average Tesla driver but with the ones misusing the system using a level 2 system as if it were a level 4/5 system, if the idiots would simply listen to warnings they wouldn't be idiots in the first place.

    Again, preventing such misuse is a win win for everbody except the idiots with no downsides, the normal driver using the system correctly would not be affected.


     
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