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    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    Whoopsy:

    This will be the ironic case of American justice.

    GM's ignition switch faults actually killed people, Toyota's death pedal also killed people, but both got off light.

    VW's emission is a harmless infraction but they will be penalized greatly. 

    USA is such a screwed up country.

    Well VW seems to have intentionally circumvented laws on a large scale in order to sell their products so I would argue that it's pretty serious. I doubt they will face $18 billion in fines (unless a jury decides it, then it could be in the trillions Smiley). As it is, they have screwed their workers and shareholders pretty hard already, and have some serious brand damage as well.

     


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    Well, actually, the point is that VW diesel engines where/are spewing toxic and carcinogenic chemicals into the air at a rate far in excess of what is allowed by law, so who knows how many they have killed or will kill as a result? It's not exactly a harmless infraction.


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    Given the size of the diesel fleet in the US vs. number of big American SUVs & light trucks which group of automobiles emmits more toxic chemicals do you think?


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    ... Are gasoline-fueled cars or large diesel trucks the bigger source of secondary organic aerosol (SOA), a major component of smog? ... diesel exhaust contributes 15 times more than gas emissions per liter of fuel burned. ...

    ... diesel exhaust is responsible for 65-90 percent of a region’s vehicular-derived SOA, depending upon the relative amounts of gasoline and diesel used in the area.

    -- http://news.berkeley.edu/2012/10/22/diesel-vs-gas-contributing-to-smog/

    ... Diesel exhaust is a complex mixture of thousands of gases and fine particles that contains more than 40 toxic air contaminants. These include cancer-causing substances such as benzene, arsenic and formaldehyde, as well as other seriously harmful pollutants.

    The microscopic particles in diesel exhaust are less than one-fifth the thickness of a human hair, small enough to penetrate deep into the lungs and bloodstream, causing inflammation, asthma attacks, heart attacks and strokes, and worsening lung disease in the elderly and young. The World Health Organisation says long-term exposure to these particles — called PM2.5s because they are just two-and-a-half thousands of a millimetre across — alters the way children's brains grow and could make them less intelligent. 

    Californian research last year found a link between pollutants in diesel fumes and autism.

    Other U.S. studies have shown that adults exposed to PM2.5s suffer a greater loss of mental faculties than those living away from pollution. The exhausts also spew out nitrogen dioxide, a substance that irritates lungs and reduces our ability to fight disease. ...

     -- http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2617425/The-deadly-diesel-deception-We-bullied-buying-diesel-cars-help-fight-global-warming-Now-experts-say-green-fuel-killing-thousands-us.html


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    VW faces state and federal govt legal issues and a myriad of class action and personal civil suits.  


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    apias:

    ... Are gasoline-fueled cars or large diesel trucks the bigger source of secondary organic aerosol (SOA), a major component of smog? ... diesel exhaust contributes 15 times more than gas emissions per liter of fuel burned. ...

    ... diesel exhaust is responsible for 65-90 percent of a region’s vehicular-derived SOA, depending upon the relative amounts of gasoline and diesel used in the area.

    -- http://news.berkeley.edu/2012/10/22/diesel-vs-gas-contributing-to-smog/

    ... Diesel exhaust is a complex mixture of thousands of gases and fine particles that contains more than 40 toxic air contaminants. These include cancer-causing substances such as benzene, arsenic and formaldehyde, as well as other seriously harmful pollutants.

    The microscopic particles in diesel exhaust are less than one-fifth the thickness of a human hair, small enough to penetrate deep into the lungs and bloodstream, causing inflammation, asthma attacks, heart attacks and strokes, and worsening lung disease in the elderly and young. The World Health Organisation says long-term exposure to these particles — called PM2.5s because they are just two-and-a-half thousands of a millimetre across — alters the way children's brains grow and could make them less intelligent. 

    Californian research last year found a link between pollutants in diesel fumes and autism.

    Other U.S. studies have shown that adults exposed to PM2.5s suffer a greater loss of mental faculties than those living away from pollution. The exhausts also spew out nitrogen dioxide, a substance that irritates lungs and reduces our ability to fight disease. ...

     -- http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2617425/The-deadly-diesel-deception-We-bullied-buying-diesel-cars-help-fight-global-warming-Now-experts-say-green-fuel-killing-thousands-us.html

     

    I can't believe i am defending diesel, or at least modern diesel engine cars. 

    But are the 'dirty' clean diesel VWs dirtier than gasoline cars from say pre emission era? Like cars from the 60s and before? Be it a American muscle car, European classic like a Ferrari or a Porsche? The government around the world doesn't have the backbone to stand up for their emission standard period. I dare them to legislate laws that require any cars to be of conforming to rules as recent as 15 years ago. All those that failed has to be crushed, or modernized, i.e. have a modern enough engine installed or have catalytic converter slapped on. That rule alone will cleanup more harmful emissions than cleaning those half a million VW cars. 

    Then there is the industrial sector and big rigs. Those diesels are pretty much running constantly, each of those will emit way more emissions than the half a mil VW engines combined. Let's see the government ban those too. How about coal burning power plants, one of those will emit over a year more than those cars will in their lifetime. 


    --

     

     


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    Just can't trust those dishonest, cheating Germans....first it was Siemens, now VW....angry

    Will they have enough money to pay the fines since they still need to bail out the Greeks. 


    --

    2003 Cayenne Turbo


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    Or just summon Tsipras over and negotiate the fines Greek style, cook the books and done!


    --

     

     


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    MKW:
    Whoopsy:

    I can see Muller fighting tooth and nails with the board on which brand should pay the fines. Porsche mostly ran as a independent brand outside of the rest of the VAG group, and the problem came even before Porsche was bought out.

    VW the brand is definitely in, Audi would be too and the rest of the brands as they are well integrated into the company. Cut out Audi's F1 inspiration, cut the Audi racing teams would be a start. 

     

    What difference does it make ...most of Porsche's cash cow cars are basically re engineered VW brands (  Panamera , Cayenne, Macan )  ...this will impact impact us Porsches consumers from trucksters to sports cars ...C suite machinations and finger pointing go on all the time there in good times or bad ..who cares among us ?

    That has been part of the VWAG revolving door back stabbibg mgmt culture since I bought their first product in 1979 . 

    As a long time Rennteam member, I did not expect that platitude from you, especially since it is wrong.

    1. Panamera is an independently developed Porsche product, 100% Porsche. The next generation will be a different story but it won't be VW Porsche is working with but rather Bentley (and to some part Audi).

    2. Cayenne has been developed by Porsche for Volkswagen (together with the Touareg). So basically, the Touareg is actually a rebranded Porsche, at least the first version was. Smiley

    3. Yes, the Macan has been developed together with Audi but the differences are huge, incl. the petrol engines (not Audi) and the AWD system (not Audi as well).


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Ford Mustang GT500 Shelby SVT (2014), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    Whoopsy:

    Or just summon Tsipras over and negotiate the fines Greek style, cook the books and done!

    Varoufakis would be free right now. Should I set up an appointment? I know a guy who knows his wife and her family. Smiley Smiley


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Ford Mustang GT500 Shelby SVT (2014), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    Can't think that VW are the only manufacturer to do this......


    --

    991 Carrera Black\Black, XC90 Black\Black, 120 Cab Black\Coral Red - 2 kids, 1 dog


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    Agent Provocateur:

    Just can't trust those dishonest, cheating Germans....first it was Siemens, now VW....angry

    Will they have enough money to pay the fines since they still need to bail out the Greeks. 

    Siemens didn't cheat, they bribed...Greeks (and these Greeks accepted the bribes). Now what is more despicable? To give a bribe or to accept one. I know what I would pick. In certain countries, incl. Greece, there is a certain bribing culture, where you cannot achieve much without bribes.

    VW however...different story. They cheated. Actively. They already acknowledged it. Very bad situation for them.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Ford Mustang GT500 Shelby SVT (2014), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    bridggar:

    Can't think that VW are the only manufacturer to do this......

    I'm afraid we are going to have a surprise at some point, a bad one. 

    The US EPA already announced they would check software from other Diesel car manufacturers as well and in Germany, the scandal just started, the responsible authority KBA will do the same but the government may not want to make a big fuss out of this because it could harm the German export industry. 

    Right now, I would probably stay away from any car stock, especially from manufacturers who are involved with the big players who have Diesel cars in their program. Just to be safe...


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Ford Mustang GT500 Shelby SVT (2014), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    If I had a lot of money and if I would be someone who loves risks, I would probably take my chance and buy BMW and Daimler stocks at the current (or better lower...over the next days?) values. Long-term gain should be nice but I do not expect any gains soon because it may take weeks or months until all investigations are over.

    Btw: A customer of mine just told me that he bought VW, at a very high recommendation of his bank, last week at around 165 EUR. Now the stock is worth 127 EUR, 38 EUR less and he hasn't sold yet. Smiley He put all half of his life savings into the stock (not sure how much this is but definitely a lot for him), poor guy. I told him to ask a lawyer if he can do something about it but I highly doubt it.


    --

     

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Ford Mustang GT500 Shelby SVT (2014), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)

     


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    Just touched EURO 111

    This is painful to watch.

     


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    tso:

    Just touched EURO 111

    This is painful to watch.

     

    106...oh boy. Smiley That customer of mine, I really feel for this guy. It may take months or longer before the stock value recovers. If it recovers (which is unlikely if they find that VW has cheated on other markets as well).

    People shouldn't buy right now, too risky (unless you really have big cojones and a long breath) but maybe when it hits under 100 (still risky though).


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Ford Mustang GT500 Shelby SVT (2014), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    I thought I made a smart move yesterday...not so smart but out again with limited damage surprise


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    tso:

    I thought I made a smart move yesterday...not so smart but out again with limited damage surprise

    Stay away from car stocks for now, unless you really have a long breath and a risky nature. If this spreads (other car companies affected as well), we could see a very very nasty drop in car stock values.

    On the positive side: All that money exiting car stocks needs to go somewhere. My guess is: Tech and banks. Smiley


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Ford Mustang GT500 Shelby SVT (2014), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    Old traders' adage: never catch a falling knife...


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    olli:

    Old traders' adage: never catch a falling knife...

    Smiley (never try to catch one but if you catch it... Smiley...I'm too much of a pussy though SmileySmiley).


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Ford Mustang GT500 Shelby SVT (2014), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    I just realized, after some thinking, that the problem VW has is actually much bigger.

    Why? Well, they just acknowledged having manipulated 11 Mio. cars worldwide. So far, fine.

    Now they put aside around 6,5 Billion EUR to take care of necessary mods on cars (to achieve the emissions tests) and for positive image campaigns. So far, so good. Again.

    Now here is the tricky question: Since their cars haven't achieved the emissions tests with the specs (I assume) advertised, how will these cars achieve the specs (torque, power, performance, etc.) with the implemented new emissions mods? I highly doubt it.

    So if a customer bought, let's say a VW Diesel with 200 hp and suddenly, this car will offer 170 hp only because of the emissions mods, will the customer accept that or will he demand a car according to the specs he paid for?

    I think you are getting my point. VW could be in a real legal shitload here and I'm not even sure they realize i yet.


    --

     

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Ford Mustang GT500 Shelby SVT (2014), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)

     


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    Today's renewed fall in the stock price is due to VW announcing that 11 million cars world-wide are affected. This is from a blog from the Times, London:

    "The emissions scandal gripping Volkswagen has deepened dramatically today. In the latest development, the company has admitted that software designed to fool emissions tests was fitted to 11 million of its diesel cars worldwide. To put that into context, Volkswagen last year sold more than 10 million vehicles, making it the world's largest carmaker by sales.

    VW is also setting aside €6.5 billion in provisions in the third quarter to cover potential costs resulting from the scandal and it would have to adjust its profit targets for the current year accordingly.

    In a statement this morning, the company said: "Discrepancies relate to vehicles with Type EA 189 engines, involving some eleven million vehicles worldwide. A noticeable deviation between bench test results and actual road use was established solely for this type of engine.""


    --

    fritz


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    Basically all 2.0 liter TDi Commonrail Euro5 engines from VW (and Audi?). Ouch.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Ford Mustang GT500 Shelby SVT (2014), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    RC:

    I just realized, after some thinking, that the problem VW has is actually much bigger.

    Why? Well, they just acknowledged having manipulated 11 Mio. cars worldwide. So far, fine.

    Now they put aside around 6,5 Billion EUR to take care of necessary mods on cars (to achieve the emissions tests) and for positive image campaigns. So far, so good. Again.

    Now here is the tricky question: Since their cars haven't achieved the emissions tests with the specs (I assume) advertised, how will these cars achieve the specs (torque, power, performance, etc.) with the implemented new emissions mods? I highly doubt it.

    So if a customer bought, let's say a VW Diesel with 200 hp and suddenly, this car will offer 170 hp only because of the emissions mods, will the customer accept that or will he demand a car according to the specs he paid for?

    I think you are getting my point. VW could be in a real legal shitload here and I'm not even sure they realize i yet.

    The emissions tests do not include a wide-open throttle, high-rev and full power element, so there would have been no "need" to manipulate the engine mapping for those conditions.
    What I suspect would more likely to happen is that the cars could be re-rated to higher emissions classes, so that they do not benefit from lower operating tax rates in those markets where such taxes vary with emissions output.  Smiley


    --

    fritz


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    RC:
     

    ... The US EPA already announced they would check software from other Diesel car manufacturers as well and in Germany, the scandal just started, the responsible authority KBA will do the same but the government may not want to make a big fuss out of this because it could harm the German export industry. ...

    The researchers who discovered the discrepancy with VW/Audi also tested a BMW (I forget which model) as part of the project they were working on (to show how clean clean diesel is today) and it did not exhibit any unusual behavior. That's not to say that all BMW engines are "good", they may well be

    So far, it's only this one engine that VW/Audi cheated with, I'm guessing because, pretty far into development, they realized they were never going to achieve the performance and/or fuel economy and/or no AdBlue goals and meet the emissions requirements, and someone decided to go with this cheat rather than scrap the engine development. Has this happened in other cases? We'll find out, but it could be an isolated incident.

    However, if I were the EPA, I'd focus first on engines that seem to "have it all".


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    Winterkorn gone - Mueller in his seat?


    --

    991 Carrera Black\Black, XC90 Black\Black, 120 Cab Black\Coral Red - 2 kids, 1 dog


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    Apart from the cost of re-fitting existing amd future cars and the body blow to its image, VW will be under threat from all sorts of class actions suits/damage claims and government fines.


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    I can't help but wonder if this is what the whole Piech/Winterkorn power struggle last Spring was all about. This was back in April, about the time when the EPA investigation must have really been heating up. Clearly, everyone at the top at Volkswagen knew this was going on, and going to blow up, they just weren't talking about it. 


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    bridggar:

    Winterkorn gone - Mueller in his seat?

    Yes.

    This is going to be interesting.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Ford Mustang GT500 Shelby SVT (2014), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    olli:

    Apart from the cost of re-fitting existing amd future cars and the body blow to its image, VW will be under threat from all sorts of class actions suits/damage claims and government fines.

    Meaning this could last for years, which is quite scary.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Ford Mustang GT500 Shelby SVT (2014), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)


     
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