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    Re: What will happen to Porsche when the trend is

    Rennteam is getting kind of tiring for this grinding negativity of people that are upset that Porsche produces lots of cars and maybe some (Cayenne?) that are deemed to not be appropriate for the manufacturer. The message is that people are upset that "other" people might own a Porsche and low-buck models like the Boxster tarnish the Porsche "experience"...

    Did the 914, 924, 944 never exist? I for one am glad that they make the Boxster, because I think it is a great car in many respects and frankly, $150K sports cars are just plain out of my range. Maybe you think its bad that it is "too affordable", but I don't.

    I guess what I sense here is not an actual criticism of the CARS but rather the image, positioning, exclusivity and excessive options. The CARS are good. You may not live every model, but that is OK.

    I laughed when I read Nick's assertion that the Porsche factory is not involved in racing. Now I do understand the strict interpretation that Nick applied there, but come on... Sebring last week, the ALMS season last year, extensive support and involvement in countless forms of GT racing throughout the world and the massive new competitions center opened last year in Wiessach suggest that Porsche is in fact involved in racing... The way I define it anyway.

    I'm glad that Porsche does not pay much attention to what's posted in these forums because a lot of it is pretty whacked-out (IMO)

    Re: What will happen to Porsche when the trend is

    Quote:
    amjf088 said:
    Rennteam is getting kind of tiring for this grinding negativity of people that are upset that Porsche produces lots of cars and maybe some (Cayenne?) that are deemed to not be appropriate for the manufacturer. The message is that people are upset that "other" people might own a Porsche and low-buck models like the Boxster tarnish the Porsche "experience"...

    Did the 914, 924, 944 never exist? I for one am glad that they make the Boxster, because I think it is a great car in many respects and frankly, $150K sports cars are just plain out of my range. Maybe you think its bad that it is "too affordable", but I don't.

    I guess what I sense here is not an actual criticism of the CARS but rather the image, positioning, exclusivity and excessive options. The CARS are good. You may not live every model, but that is OK.

    I laughed when I read Nick's assertion that the Porsche factory is not involved in racing. Now I do understand the strict interpretation that Nick applied there, but come on... Sebring last week, the ALMS season last year, extensive support and involvement in countless forms of GT racing throughout the world and the massive new competitions center opened last year in Wiessach suggest that Porsche is in fact involved in racing... The way I define it anyway.

    I'm glad that Porsche does not pay much attention to what's posted in these forums because a lot of it is pretty whacked-out (IMO)



    Sports cars are fine, no matter how little they cost, but the Cayenne is ridiculous. The V6 models, now prevalent around Europe, are slow and any decent turbodiesel hatch beats them from 0 to their top speed of 130 mph. I'm sorry, but Porsche is supposed to be about sports cars. I like the Boxster and the Coxster, but the Pepper is really pushing it .

    Re: What will happen to Porsche when the trend is

    Note that "we" blasphemous, dissenting ex-Porsche fanatics/owners are also unhappy with the fact that Porsche may be "involved" in racing, but it is certainly not at the top level of the sport.

    Why is the RS spyder in LMP2? Why didn't they produce a car that would compete with audi's overall dominance?

    As for the road cars I agree with Crash entirely. The boxster and cayman are legitimate sports cars, albiet on the cheap end. (Everyone always hates the entry level model once they graduate from it).

    NO one in their right mind can make an argument for the Cayenne that does not involve it helping Porsche be dominant when it comes to income. The very basis of the platform sharing idea with VW is based around the idea of reducing costs while maximizing profit.

    Why else would they make an SUV?So they could crusade and bring sportiness to another sector, foolish to think that. It is a quest for money.

    Re: What will happen to Porsche when the trend is

    Quote:
    Crash said:
    Sports cars are fine, no matter how little they cost, but the Cayenne is ridiculous. The V6 models, now prevalent around Europe, are slow and any decent turbodiesel hatch beats them from 0 to their top speed of 130 mph. I'm sorry, but Porsche is supposed to be about sports cars. I like the Boxster and the Coxster, but the Pepper is really pushing it .



    Come on crash, that's a bit lame. Even the 997 turbo is now spanked by the upstart that is the Nissan GTR and for a lot less cash too. There are also plenty of other cars that will see off the Boxster S and Cayman S. You can't just single out the V6 pepper which in facelifted form is now actually quite a respectable performer compared to 6 cylinder petrol rivals and it handles a damn sight better than them too.

    There is a bit of rose tinted viewing of the good old days going on here I think by quite a few people There are lots of fast cars that can humble many top end exotics. Evo mag recently showed that a Gallardo Superleggera couldn't shake off an Impreza Sti cross country and this month's Car magazine states that it would take a very skilled driver in an F430 to pull away from the new RS6. I really fail to see what all the fuss is about with regard to outright performance of Porsches as a result. Is it somehow affecting bragging rights that on paper performance is no longer up to par or have everyone turned into dragstrip racers? The only 997 to have serious bragging rights now is the GT2 and it will doubtlessly not be long before another, much cheaper challenger dents that too. The pace of progress has become so fast that the once mighty Carrera GT has been beaten in pure performance terms by the humble 997. The CGT was panned for not having enough driver safety aids to make it driveable by Joe Public in one breath, then the performance 997 variants criticised on the other for having too much electronic intervention I'm therefore confused as to what the supposed purists want from Porsche and am certain Porsche would be too reading through this thread. They offer us a partially stripped out pseudo racer in the GT3 (though how many do you see without aircon or comfort seats?) or GT3RS, a tarmac shredder in the turbo and a mixture of both in the GT2. The cooking Carrera models offer sublime handling as do the Boxster and Cayman and the Cayenne easily outshines it's opposition when driven back to back. They've introduced a performance version of the Cayenne in the form of the GTS bust most buyers will ditch the manual gearbox and mechanical suspension that have been designed to appeal to the enthusiast. So what exactly should they be doing that they are not..... other than obviously cutting production back to sub 10,000 cars per annum and only making 911's that is?

    Re: What will happen to Porsche when the trend is

    It's too late to repair the damage done. The only saving grace (maybe) would be if they stopped being so greedy.

    Cayenne GTS? USELESS
    Boxster/Cayman/Porsche design Special Editions? USELESS
    Simpler Model Range Please. Do we need 35 variations of the 911?

    The audience they are targetting with these cars will take the bait. And then they will have to cater to that audience's needs, which is a large departure from who and what the original audience wanted.

    Re: What will happen to Porsche when the trend is

    Quote:
    Crash said:
    Quote:
    amjf088 said:
    Rennteam is getting kind of tiring for this grinding negativity of people that are upset that Porsche produces lots of cars and maybe some (Cayenne?) that are deemed to not be appropriate for the manufacturer. The message is that people are upset that "other" people might own a Porsche and low-buck models like the Boxster tarnish the Porsche "experience"...

    Did the 914, 924, 944 never exist? I for one am glad that they make the Boxster, because I think it is a great car in many respects and frankly, $150K sports cars are just plain out of my range. Maybe you think its bad that it is "too affordable", but I don't.

    I guess what I sense here is not an actual criticism of the CARS but rather the image, positioning, exclusivity and excessive options. The CARS are good. You may not live every model, but that is OK.

    I laughed when I read Nick's assertion that the Porsche factory is not involved in racing. Now I do understand the strict interpretation that Nick applied there, but come on... Sebring last week, the ALMS season last year, extensive support and involvement in countless forms of GT racing throughout the world and the massive new competitions center opened last year in Wiessach suggest that Porsche is in fact involved in racing... The way I define it anyway.

    I'm glad that Porsche does not pay much attention to what's posted in these forums because a lot of it is pretty whacked-out (IMO)



    Sports cars are fine, no matter how little they cost, but the Cayenne is ridiculous. The V6 models, now prevalent around Europe, are slow and any decent turbodiesel hatch beats them from 0 to their top speed of 130 mph. I'm sorry, but Porsche is supposed to be about sports cars. I like the Boxster and the Coxster, but the Pepper is really pushing it .



    Agree with most of that. There is nothing wrong with Porsche building anything as long as it is the best combination of performance, looks, safety (and luxury) for its category.

    The old old car didn't have the extra's because they didn't exist/or porsche didn't know how to build a 1st rate car. That's what the 928 did for them.

    It transFormed a kit car maker into a top tier Luxury car maker.

    If some people here are so wealthy why does a little depreciation hurt so much? But I do agree on the tracking/warranty thing.

    Re: What will happen to Porsche when the trend is

    The Philosophy of Porsche:


    The Porsche Principle is our Magna Carta. It is based on values and philosophies that together create our added value. The Porsche Principle is about a company that knows size isn't everything. It's also about a company that consistently goes its own way. On the stock market, for instance, because we don't think too highly of quarterly reports and, accordingly, don't publish them. In public life because we not only decline subsidies. We even challenge them out of principle. In the automotive industry because the little Porsche company dares to acquire a substantial share of the giant Volkswagen Group, in order to secure its autonomy over time. In society as a whole because - despite our exclusive products - social acceptance is paramount for us. On the labour market, because to secure our long-term success we don't eliminate jobs, we secure and create them. On the business base issue, because we are committed to Germany and are a constant reminder to others that one can succeed here too.

    Incidentally, the Porsche Principle is a matter of our own standards.
    Faith in our own virtues. We have very definite ideas on how we develop and produce our vehicles. In addition to maximum cost effectiveness, they must comply with the high demands we make. What counts here are quality, environmental protection, safety. And, naturally, fascination. All this is important. So important that we integrate our suppliers in the development process from the very first new car concept, and demand a lot of them. Because we also demand a lot of ourselves. And believe in partnership. The Porsche Principle is also about responsibility. To the customer, and to our own heritage. We never forget our origins. And they are rooted in motorsport, where we have written history on the track. We concentrate on what we do best: building sports cars. And a few other things. As mentioned, we are a small company. The Porsche Principle is also the David Principle. We are not intimidated by the Goliaths in the industry. We are independent. We are the world's most profitable car maker.

    -------------------------------------------

    The whole philosophy is one contradiction after another.

    They state "In the stock market, for instance, because we don't think too highly of quarterly reports and, accordingly, don't publish them." Then, in the second paragraph they state "We are the world's most profitable car maker."

    And on and on. They talk about the value they provide, but that is becoming less apparent. My hope is that they will return to a pure, kick-a** sports car maker, and renew their participation in motor sport. However, the introduction of the Cayenne and now the Panamera makes me think they are done with all of that.

    "We concentrate on what we do best: building sports cars. And a few other things." And a few other things?

    What do you say, everyone, Koenigsegg's all around?


    Re: What will happen to Porsche when the trend is

    FWIW, Weideking almost 10 years ago announce Porsche was officially out of racing. A couple of years ago they signed an agreement with Penske for limited racing support.

    They agreed to race in the lower classes and not compete at the top tier level. If you consider that is a racing program so be it.

    I do agree Porsche providing lower end sport cars like the Boxster/Cayman is a worthwhile endeavor. It serves a purpose. However, when the flag ship 911 shares over 50% of the parts with the lower end models then I do have a problem.

    Fianlly there is nothing wrong with negative comments about Porsche. The day we all just fawn over Porsche is the day I am out of here.

    Re: What will happen to Porsche when the trend is

    Excellent ideas, all of the above here. Great comments. I think we all needed to get this out of our system and it's very good to see that there is a consensus of sorts on what is going on, both the good and the bad. It means that the subjective opinions of individuals here add up to a pretty objective position because we feel the same way.

    However, AMJF also got it right. The Porsche sports cars have nothing in common with the Cayenne from the driving point of view and the fact that the sports cars exist in such large numbers doesn't make an individual Porsche sports car any worse. Sure, the badge suffers, no doubt, but behind the wheel of the GT3, I am in heaven, I pity the poor Cayenne drivers and wave nicely at the Boxster crowd.

    Even if the 911 and Boxster share components, it's like the same bricks being used to build a zoo or a church. Same building blocks, totally different outcome.

    It's all in the driver's head, which is what we are discussing here.

    Re: What will happen to Porsche when the trend is

    Quote:
    ADias said:
    Now that I'm venting - Cayman - wht a stupid name.... should be Boxster [coupe version]



    They couldn't call the Cayman a Boxster coupe because no one else (as far as I can recollect) would charge more for a coupe than a convertible of the same car

    Re: What will happen to Porsche when the trend is

    Quote:
    nberry said:
    FWIW, Weideking almost 10 years ago announce Porsche was officially out of racing. A couple of years ago they signed an agreement with Penske for limited racing support.




    The Spyder Program was commissioned by PMNA. Porsche design, build, and develops the car. They have a contract with Penske to run the racing program. -BTW - any team that buys a Spyder gets a Porsche Engineer with the car (included in the price)
    Quote:
    nberry said:They agreed to race in the lower classes and not compete at the top tier level. If you consider that is a racing program so be it.


    This is only a rumor. no one knows for sure. It is suspected that WW made a deal with VW to share the platform for the Cayenne in return for "allowing" Audi a free hand in the Prototype classes at Le Mans.

    The racing program does need to be looked at, and I'll post later on this subject.

    Re: What will happen to Porsche when the trend is

    It's amazing how people just conveniently airbrush out a heck of a lot from Porsche's history to suit their ideal of what the Company's ethos is so I'll carry on being the devil's (or Porsche's ) advocate to provide the opposing view in this debate.

    Porsche have made a lot of road cars that were hardly performance icons over the years yet these are being resolutely ignored - early 911, 912, 914, 916, 924 etc. A few of those were conceived and built in Ferry's time so that is why I originally said I think he'd be more than satisfied with the current business. He was a realist and knew his model range needed to appeal to a wider audience. I'm not a Porsche acolyte but I do think people need to look more objectively. Racerx was spot on about the move forward with the 928. How many of those criticising Porsche for not catering for the purist are driving round in cars with unecessary options that add weight and blunt performance deleted from their options list - electric seats, aircon, oversize wheels, bodykits, leather on every surface possible, electric windows, central locking, navigation....the list goes on. And curtailing performance amongst the model range is nothing new either. Can anyone present figures for stock factory models where the lower echelons of the range were allowed to outperform the top models? The 944 Turbo was held back just as the Cayman is today for example.

    If pure performance was the ultimate goal for perfectionists we'd all be sacrificing unnecessary luxury items to achieve it yet that is not what people are really asking for is it? Ferrari are no better in this regard. For example you can take 63 Kgs out of the weight of a standard 360 Modena by fitting a few basic items - carbon fibre shelled seats in place of the tickly padded electric items (28 Kgs), an exhaust made from titanium from the cats backwards (25 Kgs) and fitting a gel battery (10 Kgs). How many Ferrari owners know this or bother to do it though? And their cars can be humbled by a lot less costly cars as well in a straight line.

    To say that the Cayenne GTS is "useless" is a real insult to the superb engineering achievement attained for such a large vehicle which can outhandle and outperform cars half it's size. You may not like the class of vehicle but don't dismiss the engineering feat which crystalises the backbone of Porsche's expertise. And also don't dismiss the fact that for some people it represents a great choice for single car ownership where they need more space yet don't wish to have to sacrifice performance in doing so.

    I'm quite sure Porsche could ditch all of the toys and gizmo's in their cars, create serious performance versions and then watch their sales fall away to a fraction of current levels as the majority of their customer base walk away as a result and buy gadget laden Jaguars, Aston Martins, Ferraris etc instead. They are supplying what the market wants.

    Re: What will happen to Porsche when the trend is

    Quote:
    ISUK said:
    It's amazing how people just conveniently airbrush out a heck of a lot from Porsche's history to suit their ideal of what the Company's ethos is so I'll carry on being the devil's (or Porsche's ) advocate to provide the opposing view in this debate.

    Porsche have made a lot of road cars that were hardly performance icons over the years yet these are being resolutely ignored - early 911, 912, 914, 916, 924 etc. A few of those were conceived and built in Ferry's time so that is why I originally said I think he'd be more than satisfied with the current business. He was a realist and knew his model range needed to appeal to a wider audience. I'm not a Porsche acolyte but I do think people need to look more objectively. Racerx was spot on about the move forward with the 928. How many of those criticising Porsche for not catering for the purist are driving round in cars with unecessary options that add weight and blunt performance deleted from their options list - electric seats, aircon, oversize wheels, bodykits, leather on every surface possible, electric windows, central locking, navigation....the list goes on. And curtailing performance amongst the model range is nothing new either. Can anyone present figures for stock factory models where the lower echelons of the range were allowed to outperform the top models? The 944 Turbo was held back just as the Cayman is today for example.

    If pure performance was the ultimate goal for perfectionists we'd all be sacrificing unnecessary luxury items to achieve it yet that is not what people are really asking for is it? Ferrari are no better in this regard. For example you can take 63 Kgs out of the weight of a standard 360 Modena by fitting a few basic items - carbon fibre shelled seats in place of the tickly padded electric items (28 Kgs), an exhaust made from titanium from the cats backwards (25 Kgs) and fitting a gel battery (10 Kgs). How many Ferrari owners know this or bother to do it though? And their cars can be humbled by a lot less costly cars as well in a straight line.

    To say that the Cayenne GTS is "useless" is a real insult to the superb engineering achievement attained for such a large vehicle which can outhandle and outperform cars half it's size. You may not like the class of vehicle but don't dismiss the engineering feat which crystalises the backbone of Porsche's expertise. And also don't dismiss the fact that for some people it represents a great choice for single car ownership where they need more space yet don't wish to have to sacrifice performance in doing so.

    I'm quite sure Porsche could ditch all of the toys and gizmo's in their cars, create serious performance versions and then watch their sales fall away to a fraction of current levels as the majority of their customer base walk away as a result and buy gadget laden Jaguars, Aston Martins, Ferraris etc instead. They are supplying what the market wants.



    All the early Porsches that you mention had one thing going for it that you may not understand. Performance value versus their competitors.
    Of the not-so-Porsche Porsches, I've owned two 944 turbos which I liked but unfortunately didn't have the heritage of the 911. As far as it being held back... you could go out and spend a couple thousand dollars for the chip and headers and it would compete with the 911 turbo of that generation.

    Name a vehicle that surpassed the performance of the 993 Turbo. (same era)

    Name a vehicle that surpassed the performance of the 996 Turbo.

    Name a vehicle that surpassed the performance of the 997 Turbo.

    How much do they cost?

    Do you get the picture yet? The competition has stepped up their vehicles, yet Porsche insults the enthusiasts by stepping up their profits and literally IGNORING their competition. You may not understand this until you open your wallet and keep purchasing their vehicles. When the thrill of initial ownership is lost you will realize that you've over-paid for a vehicle that has long lost its racing heritage. Even the poseur's exclusivity factor is going by the wayside.

    As far as the excellent achievement in engineering for the Cayenne GTS... you better slap the backs of BMW and Mercedes as well. I believe they have competing trucks that can perform/out-perform the GTS. (BTW I am also a Cayenne S owner)

    Re: What will happen to Porsche when the trend is

    It just hit me. The most honest and least hypocritical solution would be to divorce the Cayenne and Panamera range from the sports cars and put them under a different badge, which would be heavily marketed as "engineered by porsche".

    This "engineered by Porsche" is favoured by Harley Davidson (V-rod engine), Audi (original RS2), Mercedes (E500).

    The fact is that if you buy a Cayenne, you want foremest an SUV. Not a Porsche, because a Porsche should only ever be a sports car, right? Let's just make a Cayenne engineered by Porsche for you and there you go.

    This way everybody would be happy and no one would lose face.

    Re: What will happen to Porsche when the trend is

    Hoosier is slightly off. Watch the topgear review of the Cayeene GTS vs. the BMW X5 4.0, the Cayenne wins. And what competes with the GT2?

    The performance is there ALONG WITH the luxury, fit and finish, and safety. That's Porsche.

    You are coming up against the law of diminshing returns as far as 0-60 goes. The GT-R is an POS in my mind.

    I lay a lot of the dis-satisfaction here lately is due to a sub-conscious hate of the Panamera. If it looked like their own drawing or some of the prototypes, everyone would be excited and filled with anticipation, instead it looks like HE!! and may perform so-so.

    Re: What will happen to Porsche when the trend is

    Quote:
    Spyderidol said:
    Quote:
    nberry said:
    FWIW, Weideking almost 10 years ago announce Porsche was officially out of racing. A couple of years ago they signed an agreement with Penske for limited racing support.




    The Spyder Program was commissioned by PMNA. Porsche design, build, and develops the car. They have a contract with Penske to run the racing program. -BTW - any team that buys a Spyder gets a Porsche Engineer with the car (included in the price)
    Quote:
    nberry said:They agreed to race in the lower classes and not compete at the top tier level. If you consider that is a racing program so be it.


    This is only a rumor. no one knows for sure. It is suspected that WW made a deal with VW to share the platform for the Cayenne in return for "allowing" Audi a free hand in the Prototype classes at Le Mans.

    The racing program does need to be looked at, and I'll post later on this subject.



    If Porsche is all about racing why did they decide to compete only in the lower tiers?

    Part sharing is not a rumor. It is a fact. Weideking stated over three years ago that the goal was to maximize part sharing between models. He set a minimum of 50% between the 911 and Boxster. How do you think they have become so profitable in such a short time?

    Re: What will happen to Porsche when the trend is

    No Nick, the part sharing is not a rumor, but the part about Porsche agreeing not to race in the upper classes is.

    Take it easy, I'm also quite critical about some of things that we see happening (or not), but we should try to be as objective and precise as possible.

    Re: What will happen to Porsche when the trend is

    Quote:
    Spyderidol said:
    No Nick, the part sharing is not a rumor, but the part about Porsche agreeing not to race in the upper classes is.

    Take it easy, I'm also quite critical about some of things that we see happening (or not), but we should try to be as objective and precise as possible.



    If Porsche wanted to race in the upper class, why didn't they? Did someone stop them from doing so?

    I do agree we should be objective and when it comes to Porsche I can have some difficulty. They really are a slick company and they have made a ton of money being one.

    Other car manufacturers are envious. It is not often a company has a rabid customer base that it only need to retool the same car over and over again and buyers come running.

    Re: What will happen to Porsche when the trend is

    The reason that Porsche are racing in the "lower"classes is mainly due to the ACO regulations.
    The LMP1 rules heavily favor the diesel engined cars. This is why you don't see any petrol engined manufacturer teams in this class. Acura is rumored to be working on a LMP1 car, but they keep putting off their debut in this class.
    Porsche are waiting to see how the rules evolve, especially with the 2010 rule change due.
    With regards to the GT classes, the ACO basically eliminated Porsche from competing in GT1 class by castrating the turbo engines to a degree that unless you have a 6l V8 road car for homologation, you are not really going to be successful.

    It is for the reasons above, that I have often defended the dire need that Porsche has to introduce a mid-engined V8 road car, precisely so it can compete in GT1, thus upholding and perpetuating its racing heritage in at least one of the "top"classes.
    On the other hand, it must be said that Porsche is really the manufacturer that is responsible for the turn=-around of the popularity and development of the LMP2 class, that with the coming of Acura, has become the class to watch (along with GT2) in the ALMS.

    Re: What will happen to Porsche when the trend is

    Quote:
    Spyderidol said:
    The reason that Porsche are racing in the "lower"classes is mainly due to the ACO regulations.
    The LMP1 rules heavily favor the diesel engined cars. This is why you don't see any petrol engined manufacturer teams in this class. Acura is rumored to be working on a LMP1 car, but they keep putting off their debut in this class.
    Porsche are waiting to see how the rules evolve, especially with the 2010 rule change due.
    With regards to the GT classes, the ACO basically eliminated Porsche from competing in GT1 class by castrating the turbo engines to a degree that unless you have a 6l V8 road car for homologation, you are not really going to be successful.

    It is for the reasons above, that I have often defended the dire need that Porsche has to introduce a mid-engined V8 road car, precisely so it can compete in GT1, thus upholding and perpetuating its racing heritage in at least one of the "top"classes.
    On the other hand, it must be said that Porsche is really the manufacturer that is responsible for the turn=-around of the popularity and development of the LMP2 class, that with the coming of Acura, has become the class to watch (along with GT2) in the ALMS.



    Thank you for the explanation. So I fully understand, if Weideking was asked whether Porsche has officially returned to competitive racing, what would his answer be? If his answer is yes, when did they officially return?

    Re: What will happen to Porsche when the trend is

    Socal,

    I'm well aware of the relative merits of the early Porsches I mentioned thanks. Thanks for dropping the tone of the debate to a few insulting remarks which goes against the spirit of debate on this board. Just because I'm putting forward a viewpiont that is not in alignment with your own is little justification for comments like

    Quote:
    SoCalHoosier said:
    Do you get the picture yet? The competition has stepped up their vehicles, yet Porsche insults the enthusiasts by stepping up their profits and literally IGNORING their competition. You may not understand this until you open your wallet and keep purchasing their vehicles. When the thrill of initial ownership is lost you will realize that you've over-paid for a vehicle that has long lost its racing heritage. Even the poseur's exclusivity factor is going by the wayside.



    Are we to take it that you have seen the light, voted with your wallet and bought a much cheaper car that is the equal or better of a Porsche?? And if so did the brand's heritage play a major influence in your purchasing decision?

    I've owned quite a number of Porsches over the years and at times drifted away from the brand but failed to find a car that is the equal to the all round ability of the 911. I've owned faster, more expensive and less expensive cars but at the end of the day have always come back.

    You appear to have misunderstood the context I was placing my reference to past models. I made the specific point about factory stock examples as Porsche have always pegged outputs to preserve the model price hierarchy so there is nothing new here yet it is frequently brought up as criticism of the modern Porsche management. I know that the 944 turbo could be tuned but you can do that with virtually all of the current range as well through remaps of the ECU, after exhausts, LSD's etc etc. All of the models I mentioned were pretty expensive cars in their day, at least in this market, compared to ordinary cars. The price point they occupied is not too dissimilar to that of today when compared to lower and higher competition though in real terms they have are much cheaper if you factor in inflation over the period. My point re performance is that the game has moved on so much now compared to the misty eyed yesteryears that people are reminiscing about. There are a multitude of small performance hatchbacks that can trouble models from Porsche/Aston/Maserati etc not to mention the little 1.8 Toyota engined Elise which is half the price of a Boxster but faster. The only way for manufacturers to put clear air between their cars and the lower priced opposition nowadays in performance terms is to go the route of the ultra complex and expensive Veyron. The development costs of overcoming the air resistance above 190mph then the associated cooling problems of an engine with sufficient power to get above 250mph were immense and Porsche could not have bankrolled them. As a Porsche shareholder, family member, board member, true car nut and former senior engineer I'd say Ferdinand Piech knows more about the brand's heritage than most and he has doubtless been actively involved behind the scenes helping Herr Wiedeking to broker deals on developing the Cayenne alongside the Touareg and most likely smoothing the way for the production of the Panamera which will be partially assembled by VW. He is a very shrewd operator and a well known car obsessed petrol head so he cannot share your concerns or he would have used his legendary behind the scenes powerplays to alter Porsche's course.

    Yes Porsche are lagging behind on things like DSG but up to this point they haven't had an umbrella parent to share the high development costs with - VW group gives this advantage going forward. There are lots of arguments for and against factory run racing teams but in truth the track cars bear little relation to their road going counterparts and the technology transfer is slowing down especially now that driver aids have been banned in F1. There are several high profile manufacturers who have thrown away millions into Motorsport with little benefit to their road car operations - Jaguar, Toyota and BMW spring to mind from recent history. Porsche support professional teams in a wide category of racing and no doubt gain valuable feedback on their cars without the full cost of a dedicated racing operation which consume vast amounts of cash.

    As you mentioned poseurs I'd question the logic behind the racing heritage amongst many people. Do Ferrari F430 owners buy the car because of the success of the F1 team? Does the car benefit hugely from it? The new Scuderia has the e-diff and F1 gearbox said to be a direct descendant of the F1 tech yet as I said Evo magazine state that it would take a highly skilled driver in an F430 to keep ahead of a new Audi RS6 avant in the hands of a moderately skilled driver - that is my exact point of just how far technology has come to level the playing field and humble the former giants of performance. Lamborghini - without the benefit of a factory race team - look to have equaled or improved upon the best of breed F430 Scuderia's performance with their new entry model LP560-4 coupe. So I'd ask quite where does the racing pedigree noticeably put the manufacturer at the head of the pack these days when it comes to performance?

    As far as the GTS goes.... why are BMW and Mercedes even in the performance SUV arena? In response to the original Cayenne Turbo, that's why. They saw Porsche create a niche and wanted a slice of the action. Where was the original performance model in the first generation M Class and look at the launch date of the 4.8iS from BMW - April '04 vs May 03 for the Porsche. I'm somewhat surprised that you believe that the X5 bests the GTS. Have you driven both back to back lately or watched the Fifth Gear test of these cars?

    At the end of the day you haven't come up with any answers to my question on what exactly should Porsche do for the so called "purists" whatever that may mean.

    Thus far I remain sceptical of the "purists" argument. If you take it to it's logical conclusion we'd only have four 997 variants making up the entire Porsche range - the GT3, GT3RS, turbo and GT2. All other models are examples of engineering mediocrity and cynical marketing it would appear

    Re: What will happen to Porsche when the trend is

    Quote:
    MarekN said:
    It just hit me. The most honest and least hypocritical solution would be to divorce the Cayenne and Panamera range from the sports cars and put them under a different badge, which would be heavily marketed as "engineered by porsche".

    This "engineered by Porsche" is favoured by Harley Davidson (V-rod engine), Audi (original RS2), Mercedes (E500).

    The fact is that if you buy a Cayenne, you want foremest an SUV. Not a Porsche, because a Porsche should only ever be a sports car, right? Let's just make a Cayenne engineered by Porsche for you and there you go.

    This way everybody would be happy and no one would lose face.



    Cayenne buyers want a practical Porsche. It is the only one that fits the bill. The Porsche badge is a large selling point!

    Re: What will happen to Porsche when the trend is

    Quote:
    nberry said:Thank you for the explanation. So I fully understand, if Weideking was asked whether Porsche has officially returned to competitive racing, what would his answer be? If his answer is yes, when did they officially return?


    I think he would say yes!
    Porsche are currently considered the largest manufacturer in the world of turn-key racing cars.
    This year they will produce over 350 997 GT3 Cup cars, 35 RSR's and are running (or help run) 7 RS Spyders in two series (ALMS and LMS)
    Porsche motorsports has relatively recently inaugurated a huge (10,000 square meter) new building in Weissach Flats thus creating a crucial prerequisite in ensuring the continued competitiveness of its vehicles in racing.
    The facilities include workshops, race vehicle production, logistics center and a terminal for trucks. A three-story office block for the administration and development departments as well as a car-park complete the new motorsport complex, in which a staff of 210 work. (from Porsche press release)
    Any company that has invested in this way, will say "yes" were back in racing.
    Now, this doesn't mean that I agree with some of their calls.

    Re: What will happen to Porsche when the trend is

    Isuk, this is a splendid post. Thank you...

    Re: What will happen to Porsche when the trend is

    Quote:
    Spyderidol said:

    This year they will produce over 350 997 GT3 Cup cars



    Here are some of them - of course Nick will complain that they all look the same

    @ ISUK: great post - thanks

    Re: What will happen to Porsche when the trend is

    Quote:
    Italo said:
    Quote:
    nberry said:
    Excellent post.

    What amazes me when I talk with Porsche owners is the lack of knowledge regarding the car and company. For an example many believe Porsche is in racing and when I tell them that Porsche officially stop racing over 10 years ago they think I am crazy.

    They also tell me they bought a Porsche because it does not depreciation. It is a limited production car. When I tell them Porsche produces close to 100,000 cars a year and they instantly loss value once it leaves the show room they are incredulous.

    There are other misconception which allow Porsche to continue to sell their cars. However, these misconceptions become correctable over time. That is happening.



    I hate to say this but Nick is right, the rate at which a P-car depreciates when it leaves the showroom compared to an F-car is astronomical. Dealers always come up with the excuse that this is due to the VAT added on the car which I believe is ridiculous. On the contrary, I would not pay over the odds just becos I want to drive a Ferrari. Saying that I sat in a 599 GTB yesterday and boy is that car gorgeous, I'm really thinking now



    Yes but it's all about supply and demand, and in this case Ferrari dishonestly manipulates supply so they can overcharge their customers and keep prices artificially high (it's kind of like the game DeBeers plays in the diamond market, but specific to a car manufacturer and not the industry as a whole). The sad thing is their marketing strategy also allows them to produce inferior cars, especially when it comes to styling, and sell their cars. The F360/F430 are inferior to the F355 when it comes to styling. Once Ferrari starts producing more cars they will be more accountable to market demands and start producing the great cars they're capable of producing and enthusiasts really want instead of poseurs just buying into the "Ferrari" brand!

    David

    Re: What will happen to Porsche when the trend is

    Quote:
    DavidSF said:
    Yes but it's all about supply and demand, and in this case Ferrari dishonestly manipulates supply so they can overcharge their customers and keep prices artificially high (it's kind of like the game DeBeers plays in the diamond market, but specific to a car manufacturer and not the industry as a whole). The sad thing is their marketing strategy also allows them to produce inferior cars, especially when it comes to styling, and sell their cars. The F360/F430 are inferior to the F355 when it comes to styling. Once Ferrari starts producing more cars they will be more accountable to market demands and start producing the great cars they're capable of producing and enthusiasts really want instead of poseurs just buying into the "Ferrari" brand!

    David



    The low production is a good thing, it keeps the brand exclusive and does not saturate the market and the roads with cheapo models that anyone can buy.

    Ferrari is not seeing a dime of profit over MSRP (if I am not mistaken). The premiums that are being charged are pocketed by the sellers, whether it be dealers who title cars with delivery mileage, or speculators. In fact Ferrari is about to raise the MSRP significantly across the entire model range to offset this.

    What do you mean Ferrari is producing inferior cars when compared to previous generations? Thats crazy.
    Styling is a subjective thing, no one can argue that the later generation cars are not technologically superior (quite a bit). Even compared to rest of the industry, they are producing some very good products...

    Re: What will happen to Porsche when the trend is

    Quote:
    ISUK said:

    As far as the GTS goes.... why are BMW and Mercedes even in the performance SUV arena? In response to the original Cayenne Turbo, that's why. They saw Porsche create a niche and wanted a slice of the action. Where was the original performance model in the first generation M Class and look at the launch date of the 4.8iS from BMW - April '04 vs May 03 for the Porsche. I'm somewhat surprised that you believe that the X5 bests the GTS. Have you driven both back to back lately or watched the Fifth Gear test of these cars?





    Why is BMW in the performance SUV(SAV) arena? Because they invented the original performance SAV in '02. It was called the X5 4.6is. The most badass SUV on the planet, at the time. So, are wrong.

    The bean counters at Porsche saw a market there and copied BMW. Which is why they build SUVs in the first place. And, the reason why the GTS exist is to compete against the 4.8i.

    BMW could quash Porsche if they choose to. Respect for the beemer is due.

    Re: What will happen to Porsche when the trend is

    The BMW X5s (especially the bigger engined ones) are amazing cars. Prettier than the Cayenne... Free maintainence too, can't beat that.

    Re: What will happen to Porsche when the trend is

    Quote:
    svtrader1 said:
    Quote:
    ISUK said:

    As far as the GTS goes.... why are BMW and Mercedes even in the performance SUV arena? In response to the original Cayenne Turbo, that's why. They saw Porsche create a niche and wanted a slice of the action. Where was the original performance model in the first generation M Class and look at the launch date of the 4.8iS from BMW - April '04 vs May 03 for the Porsche. I'm somewhat surprised that you believe that the X5 bests the GTS. Have you driven both back to back lately or watched the Fifth Gear test of these cars?





    Why is BMW in the performance SUV(SAV) arena? Because they invented the original performance SAV in '02. It was called the X5 4.6is. The most badass SUV on the planet, at the time. So, are wrong.

    The bean counters at Porsche saw a market there and copied BMW. Which is why they build SUVs in the first place. And, the reason why the GTS exist is to compete against the 4.8i.

    BMW could quash Porsche if they choose to. Respect for the beemer is due.



    I don't agree with the quashing part, as BMW just doesn't have the brand Porsche has, but yes, the X5 was the first 'power' SUV.

     
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