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    Re: S vs. non-S what does your decision mean?

    oh, thats going to p*ss some people off.

    Re: S vs. non-S what does your decision mean?

    When I bought my 986S a few years ago (still have it) I told people my reasons; I wanted a roadster with a convertible top that was fun to drive. They thought, "yeah yeah yeah..., uh huh... . Why didn't you get the 911 ragtop?" After a few drinks early on my brother even accused me of being stupid by not buying the 996 Cabriolet!

    So THAT logic is in everybody's minds!

    I could say my reasons for buying the ragtop 986S over 996 Cab "ahem..., MID engine..., two seater..., looks cool..., EASY AND FUN to drive fast... ." All that "logic" is hogwash in the "public" consciousness; they all wondered why I didn't just buy the Carrera Cab, AKA the REAL Porsche.

    So you 997 guys are gonna have an even tougher time because the differences in the S and non-S are not as vast as my wrangling with the Boxster and the Carrera Cab.

    This public is the office people, peers, family friends aquaintences, just normal accomplished "successful" people.

    That's all I'm saying. It's a tough issue and a tough crowd out there and the more you keep your mouth shut about your reasons for getting the one over the other the better.

    Re: S vs. non-S what does your decision mean?

    Quote:
    Iwanta997 said:
    My reason for not getting the "S": I did not like the ride 19" wheels even with PASM, and due to increased brake size, I would not be able to switch to 18" wheels, if I wanted to.

    As this is my first Porsche, I have alot to learn....and am looking forward to it.



    Hi,
    The 18" wheels has no problems accomodating the 330mm rotor/turbo red calipers.
    The 996TT has the exact same brake setup + 18" turbo wheels too.

    Re: S vs. non-S what does your decision mean?

    <No one at the "S" camp will believe you (e.g."I could afford the S but got the 997 on it'sown merits instead").>

    I believe them...why not ?
    What i don't believe is why you feel it's ok to force anyone to defend their car choice.
    what's next..do you ask for a sperate forum for C2 /4, and another for C2/4S.
    <Not trying to p*ss anyone off here.>
    yeah,yeah. just a bit of playful passive agressive BS to satisfy your curiosity
    so, MMD tell me, when did you stop beating your wife ?

    Re: S vs. non-S what does your decision mean?

    I absolutely believe the non "S" folks. Why wouldn't I? They seem to have legit reasons for their choice. I can also see how someone would choose a Boxster or Cayman over a 911. If someone doesn't respect the Boxster, Cayman or non "S" 911, then they're likely ignorant or an arrogant snob. So who cares what they think!

    Bottom line: choose what you want and be happy.They're all excellent. As I wrote to a fellow rennteamer- this whole, this is better argument, is like debating which super model is the most gorgeous- it's rather silly, IMO. Further, I've never been one to make my choices based on peer pressure or others perceptions- I choose what I want.

    Cheers!


    Re: S vs. non-S what does your decision mean?

    Quote:
    SVNSVN said:
    I absolutely believe the non "S" folks. Why wouldn't I? They seem to have legit reasons for their choice. I can also see how someone would choose a Boxster or Cayman over a 911. If someone doesn't respect the Boxster, Cayman or non "S" 911, then they're likely ignorant or an arrogant snob. So who cares what they think!

    Bottom line: choose what you want and be happy.They're all excellent. As I wrote to a fellow rennteamer- this whole, this is better argument, is like debating which super model is the most gorgeous- it's rather silly, IMO. Further, I've never been one to make my choices based on peer pressure or others perceptions- I choose what I want.

    Cheers!





    Me too! Why are we having this discussion? Why in the world would I think that somebody got a Carrera because they couldn't afford an 'S'... would never cross my mind, but now that it's been brought up, Carreras are expensive cars folks! I'm sure someone who can drop $75K can probably find the means for the extra $$ for the 'S'! Non-S owners have nothing to prove, the idea that they 'can't afford it' is... juvenile.

    Re: S vs. non-S what does your decision mean?

    Quote:
    greggr107 said:
    Why are we having this discussion? Why in the world would I think that somebody got a Carrera because they couldn't afford an 'S'... would never cross my mind, but now that it's been brought up, Carreras are expensive cars folks! I'm sure someone who can drop $75K can probably find the means for the extra $$ for the 'S'! Non-S owners have nothing to prove, the idea that they 'can't afford it' is... juvenile.



    I fully agree with Richard and greggr107

    BTW it's a very bad idea to assess someone's net worth/financial means by his/her car choice (almost as silly as judging someone's character by his favourite color) - I know some really rich people driving around in 10 year old sedans (maybe that's one reason why they became rich... ), but I also know some guys with brand new exotic cars who are highly indebted and who are happy to find some change for the next gas fill-up of their toys

    The problem is that nowadays for a lot of people it's all about "image" and perception rather than real values - so I can understand where MMD is coming from with his experiences as a 986 S owner. As a future 987 S owner I might get similar reactions, but first I don't care (no need to defend my style of living, car choices, favourite colors etc.) and second if someone would ask me "Why didn't you get a Carrera" I will ask him "Why should I" ? - looking forward to all the enlightened answers from people who never drove any Porsche at all

    Re: S vs. non-S what does your decision mean?

    Quote:
    peecarfan said:
    <No one at the "S" camp will believe you (e.g."I could afford the S but got the 997 on it'sown merits instead").>

    I believe them...why not ?
    What i don't believe is why you feel it's ok to force anyone to defend their car choice.
    what's next..do you ask for a sperate forum for C2 /4, and another for C2/4S.
    <Not trying to p*ss anyone off here.>
    yeah,yeah. just a bit of playful passive agressive BS to satisfy your curiosity
    so, MMD tell me, when did you stop beating your wife ?




    Not fair, personal comments like that.

    About the subjectmatter: It's just the dark side of "consumerism" everybody's measuring everybody else's status that way to some extent. Good thing most people don't take it too personally.





    Re: S vs. non-S what does your decision mean?

    I bought the C2S simply because it is the most powerful naturally aspirated flat-six 911 to date that could be equipped with all the optional frills and comfort for daily driving on the street.
    Only the S version can be equipped with the X51 powerkit
    That's my choice

    Re: S vs. non-S what does your decision mean?

    I think were getting mixed up and caught up at the same time in the blur between the Porsche brand and its values, and the desire to have the driving experience thats right for you.

    For example, I was in my local dealer a few days ago and saw the new Cayman for the first time (great looking car in the flesh btw). The salesman was dripping on about how great it was etc, so I said who are you going to market and sell to as it seems very close to the 911 experience but without the heritage (ie. its near perfect balance, power, handling etc etc)? He said...that he had just come back from Atlanta for a sales strategy meet ar PCNA and that Porsche expected to sell a ton of these, especially to women. Hmm, interesting if this is the demographic Porsche expects to buy the Cayman and therefore will create marketing to attract them. I think a few folks on this board might frown on the "brand" (ie built for women) given its supposed to be a great driving machine.

    My point? I think you have to separate the brand from the product itself and decide what you want. Others will probably see the brand, if your a member of this board (ie. a motoring enthusiast) the brand probably means less to you than what the product will actually drive like.

    Id still buy the S (and did), because I think its a great drive (most important to me), and great value when you consider the "extras" baked into the $10k price difference. Didnt consider any brand issues in my decision as I really couldnt care less what anyone else thinks of the S versus non-S as far as my car is concerned.

    Re: S vs. non-S what does your decision mean?

    Quote:
    greggr107 said:
    Quote:
    SVNSVN said:
    I absolutely believe the non "S" folks. Why wouldn't I? They seem to have legit reasons for their choice. I can also see how someone would choose a Boxster or Cayman over a 911. If someone doesn't respect the Boxster, Cayman or non "S" 911, then they're likely ignorant or an arrogant snob. So who cares what they think!

    Bottom line: choose what you want and be happy.They're all excellent. As I wrote to a fellow rennteamer- this whole, this is better argument, is like debating which super model is the most gorgeous- it's rather silly, IMO. Further, I've never been one to make my choices based on peer pressure or others perceptions- I choose what I want.

    Cheers!





    Me too! Why are we having this discussion? Why in the world would I think that somebody got a Carrera because they couldn't afford an 'S'... would never cross my mind, but now that it's been brought up, Carreras are expensive cars folks! I'm sure someone who can drop $75K can probably find the means for the extra $$ for the 'S'! Non-S owners have nothing to prove, the idea that they 'can't afford it' is... juvenile.


    Case in point, my 997C2 has a list price of $88,900. Thus, I certainly could've afforded the 997C2S. I don't have a thing to prove. As far as any friends or others critique about it not being the "S," well, then they can be my guest, and go out and get one for themselves.

    Re: S vs. non-S what does your decision mean?

    I made the decision to purchase the 'S' for the simple reason that I wanted the fastest 911 made at the time. If the 997TT had been available, I would have purchased that one.

    We all buy these cars for different reasons. For me it was a simply a case of always wanting a 911. The fact was that for many years family and business consumed all available cash. It would have been foolish to drop $140,000CDN on a car when that money would have been better invested in my business.

    But when the time came where money was no longer an issue, I wanted the fastest 911 I could buy, and that was the C2S.

    Re: S vs. non-S what does your decision mean?

    This thread got alot better, as the B.S. went away, and the real tangible cost/benefit/personal-preference reasons for the decision finally floated to the surface.

    My only "huh?" moment was when TommyGT said he couldn't feel much of a difference seat-of-the-pants. Well, I guess my tush must be far more sensitive, as I drove both cars, and found low-end grunt to be considerably improved with the 3.8, regardless of the minimal differences in Porsche published acceleration times, which really only tell a small part of the story, when you're considering the real-world differences of two different power curves.

    But maybe that's just the difference in things we're "tuned into", him coming from a road racing background, and me from a drag-racing background.

    I easily and immediately felt the power advantage, and as such, had to have it. I probably won't "use" my red brakes, but as a car nut, there's something about having the hot equipment, period, that satisfies the psyche.

    I've already beaten the horse to near-death, in that it's rather irrelevant saying what you will or won't "use" on the street. I probably wouldn't come close to approaching the potential peak performance of an Enzo on the street, but is there any sane argument that the car would not be an absolute carnival-fun, barrel of monkeys, BLAST to drive, even if you're just poking and stabbing at it? Additional performance enhances the "fun factor", PERIOD. The more absurdly fast a car is, the more it delights me, in any venue. My only gripe with my old 993, was that I constantly felt like I wanted to stick my leg out the door and help it along...

    For me, more power has always run directly proportional to more grins.

    Is the 355 h.p. in my Carrera MORE than I'll regularly use on the street?? Puhleez.... These cars are friendly little squirts, there's not enough power in either model to bite you. The Z06 sure would be attractive, if it weren't for the rest of the ugly and ill-built car surrounding that magnificent engine!

    Porsche gets me in the details, and the overall driving experience. But if I was shopping purely on power, I'd never walk into a P dealership, which real just underscores the point that everybody here has chosen their car for personal and wide-ranging reasons.

    Re: S vs. non-S what does your decision mean?

    Well this thread has shown one thing that nobody can dispute....we are all different people with different requirements from our Porsches with varying views on what is and is not important........i for one do not need any more power than i already have.The M3 gets me as close to losing my licence as i want to be, more power would definitely corrupt and that's a place i have been to and don't wish to re-visit.........

    I guess i'm just mellowing and losing my "need for speed" phase and entering my "old fogey " stage , been there done that and now i just want to enjoy my Porsche without regretting whether i have enough power or should i have gone for the 4WD or damn i should have gotten black instead of red.......

    Good thread........shows why the world needs petrolheads...

    Re: S vs. non-S what does your decision mean?

    One does not need a powerful car to be speeding way beyond the legal limits and lose your license....a <100hp 1 litre car could land you in that position too.
    IMHO, it all boils down to personal discipline. I personally love the prodigious amount of power arsenal at my disposal and call on it when I need to get out of trouble in an emergency. I mostly love to dsitance the car away from the bunch of cars trailing behind and swiftly to the posted speed limit...and cruise there onwards.
    I simply buy the best NA P-car available at the moment that I can afford it for street use...hence the 'S'.

    Re: S vs. non-S what does your decision mean?

    Oh boy, good thing there isn't a "third" 911 option.

    We are going to go through this again when the facelift occurs. I can already see "my facelifted S is better than your 'old' S"!

    Re: S vs. non-S what does your decision mean?

    But, there is a third option-997S with X51!

    Re: S vs. non-S what does your decision mean?

    I guess a Ruf upgrade would be a fourth option.

    Re: S vs. non-S what does your decision mean?

    Having purchased my first Porsche at age 19 I have gone through several in my lifetime. I absolutely despised the 996 looks so I stayed out of that market for many years. I felt I was overdue to return to a 911 with the 997 model and quickly summed up that the S had many features that I wanted anyway. And then I started to put options on it...

    Now, some $134K later, I'm still a 'waiter.'

    Dan
    12 May Euro Delivery

    Re: S vs. non-S what does your decision mean?

    Quote:
    69bossnine said:
    This thread got alot better, as the B.S. went away, and the real tangible cost/benefit/personal-preference reasons for the decision finally floated to the surface.

    My only "huh?" moment was when TommyGT said he couldn't feel much of a difference seat-of-the-pants. Well, I guess my tush must be far more sensitive, as I drove both cars, and found low-end grunt to be considerably improved with the 3.8, regardless of the minimal differences in Porsche published acceleration times, which really only tell a small part of the story, when you're considering the real-world differences of two different power curves.

    But maybe that's just the difference in things we're "tuned into", him coming from a road racing background, and me from a drag-racing background.

    I easily and immediately felt the power advantage, and as such, had to have it. I probably won't "use" my red brakes, but as a car nut, there's something about having the hot equipment, period, that satisfies the psyche.

    I've already beaten the horse to near-death, in that it's rather irrelevant saying what you will or won't "use" on the street. I probably wouldn't come close to approaching the potential peak performance of an Enzo on the street, but is there any sane argument that the car would not be an absolute carnival-fun, barrel of monkeys, BLAST to drive, even if you're just poking and stabbing at it? Additional performance enhances the "fun factor", PERIOD. The more absurdly fast a car is, the more it delights me, in any venue. My only gripe with my old 993, was that I constantly felt like I wanted to stick my leg out the door and help it along...

    For me, more power has always run directly proportional to more grins.

    Is the 355 h.p. in my Carrera MORE than I'll regularly use on the street?? Puhleez.... These cars are friendly little squirts, there's not enough power in either model to bite you. The Z06 sure would be attractive, if it weren't for the rest of the ugly and ill-built car surrounding that magnificent engine!

    Porsche gets me in the details, and the overall driving experience. But if I was shopping purely on power, I'd never walk into a P dealership, which real just underscores the point that everybody here has chosen their car for personal and wide-ranging reasons.


    Excellent points once again bossnine!

    Re: S vs. non-S what does your decision mean?

    Okay I caved in to peer pressure. I called my dealer and told him to keep the Carrera I ordered and I bought the "S" he had on his lot. Just kidding...but buy is it fun to stir up crap. Just for fun however, I would like to know how the top speed everyone who wrote in has achieved in their "S", "non-S" cars on the street. Be honest. Also comment if this was in the US or not. Am I the only one who has noticed the sport steering wheel almost makes the 2 outer most guages useless? I didn't order that either, and money had nothing to do with that one.

    Re: S vs. non-S what does your decision mean?

    I've seen a buck 30 - buck 40 on several occassions. My biggest worry out on the road isn't my own control, it's the constant road-crossing of critters out in the country. One Armadillo at 170, and I'm done for. No thanks. My enjoyment of the h.p. has nothing to do with top-speed, and everything to do with acceleration to speed, how strong and athletic the car feels when responding to throttle inputs, and the relationship between cornering and acceleration when combined. We all know, there's not a ton a difference between the S and non-S. But I'll take all I can get (more is better than less to me), and considering the package as a whole, seemed like the best option for the money I could check, given my affinity for power.

    But I'll be the first to admit, it's not practical, or wise, to be playing at the upper limits of the Porsche's top-gear envelope on U.S. roads, or ANY roads for that matter (which is why I don't need or want big silly decklid spoilers). If you're on a highway or road lacking containment fencing on each side, you're at the mercy of Raccoon, Possum, Armadillo, deer, cows, dogs, you name it. At lower speeds they'll trash your car. At high speeds they'll send you careening off the road at which point you may as well flip a coin as to whether you liquify into a tree, or get damn lucky.

    Re: S vs. non-S what does your decision mean?

    69 bossnine, I'm with you 100%. Not the same game as when we were 20. I'm currently about 50 miles west of Chicago in farm country. My biggest fear is a deer running out in front of me. What about little things like pot holes...no thanks. When I was 18 I bought a 1965 Vette. I asked the owner if he ever raced it (hey I was a kid), he opened his garage where he had a circle track car and simple said 'No, I don't need to". Didn't understand it then but I do now. Bossnine...ie 429? Sweet!

    Re: S vs. non-S what does your decision mean?

    S is the way to go gents. In all honesty money should not a factor, it's not that much more.

    Re: S vs. non-S what does your decision mean?

    Quote:
    TommyGT said:
    69 bossnine, I'm with you 100%. Not the same game as when we were 20. I'm currently about 50 miles west of Chicago in farm country. My biggest fear is a deer running out in front of me. What about little things like pot holes...no thanks. When I was 18 I bought a 1965 Vette. I asked the owner if he ever raced it (hey I was a kid), he opened his garage where he had a circle track car and simple said 'No, I don't need to". Didn't understand it then but I do now. Bossnine...ie 429? Sweet!



    Yes, Boss 429, 1969 vintage...

    Re: S vs. non-S what does your decision mean?

    Well -- 18in on an S is a doubtful summer thing to do, if only because the 997S has wider tires than the 997 ----- and the 19/18in wheels likely have different offset if you were to try and match the width on an 18 ---- it is also a non-'allowed' option on the S, which would take a very kind dealer to authorize ---too many problems and $$$.

    KiwiCanuck

    Re: S vs. non-S what does your decision mean?

    I've seen 147 in my US-spec S. Just two nights ago actually. But I've only had mine 2 weeks

    Re: S vs. non-S what does your decision mean?

    Agreed, agree JMShrink ---- as you said ----

    "Case in point, my 997C2 has a list price of $88,900. Thus, I certainly could've afforded the 997C2S. I don't have a thing to prove. As far as any friends or others critique about it not being the "S," well, then they can be my guest, and go out and get one for themselves."

    I pop in here from time to time, amazed that this is the most popular and contentious thread seen in 6 months. Extraordinary -------- Does anyone have any ideas as to why? Tell us! I'll start ----

    It could be simply a power thing. Those who put power/torque 1st, cannot accept that some of us have put other issues ahead of power (e.g. handling with the 'non-active', the 'power-1st' accusing the several mag editors/writers who favour that (for 2005 cars) as being a bit wierd, foolishly fussy and perverse).

    Many of the arguments from the 3.6L and the 3.8 owners have been absolutely appropriate, and yet there are some who will just NOT accept that a 3.6 argument is ever really justified.

    There have been recent threads which discussed the mild idiosyncracies of PASM ----- not a very popular thread, as some of us will not consider any criticism of our Carreras ---- and those who noted a couple of things were then told that we did not know how to drive, and should take track-sessions (I agree the latter are always being good, if possible, even for a perfect car and superb driver). At the end of that thread is was 'sort-of' agreed that there ARE a couple of unusual characteristics that COULD cause some 'perfectionists' (Alain Prost types) to go for the non-PASM quite deliberately. Any way----

    Why is this thread so contentious?

    Cheers

    KiwiCanuck

    Re: S vs. non-S what does your decision mean?

    Quote:
    maoun said:
    I've seen 147 in my US-spec S. Just two nights ago actually. But I've only had mine 2 weeks



    LOL, I'm guessing that you exceeded the 4200 rpm for proper breakin?

    Re: S vs. non-S what does your decision mean?

    Hey! Speeding's against they law!!!

     
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