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    Re: 997TT vs. F430 depreciation


    Stradale, Sorry I have to disagree. Everyone has to see that ANY premium model, whether it be MB, BMW, Ferrari, Bugatti, Rolls etc etc, are as you say "ripping people off". Take a look at what constitutes a car - 4 wheels and a steering wheel. Whether its a 20$k car or a 200$K car they both have 4 wheels and a steering wheel. Further the parts on these cars for any make or model are all made by 2-3 companies, Delphi, Magna, or Visteon and do you really think the manufacturing process and cost for a MB steering system or suspension system is that much more expensive than one made for Chevrolet or VW or Cadillac? The answer is IT ISNT.

    Further the only comment I can make about Ferrari's profits - if they are less per car than Porsche's - is that they are poor managers. Italians were never good at handling their own affairs. Further, what Ferrari "loses" on every car they sell they more than make up for on paraphenalia, ie selling a Ferrari baseball cap for $50.00 when we all know full effing well that it is made in China and costs the company maybe $1.50. That's where Ferrari is making the money dude - not on their cars. They've done well at marketing, not so great at manufacturing.

    If Ferrari "cared" so much about their customers why are they underpowering their cars when they are telling their customers another story. see Challange Stradale, 420HP - yeah right.

    Re: 997TT vs. F430 depreciation

    Quote:
    thuggy said:
    Waiting the three months between order and delivery of my TT was almost killing me... waiting two years for a pleeb buyer like me for a F430 is madness to me. So while you guys are waiting to enjoy your cars, I'm driving mine and the depreciation is just the cost of being able to enjoy it sooner.




    I get my Ferrari's just as fast as my Porsche's. My first new Ferrari I had to wait a total of 11 months from deposit to delivery (4 months from order to delivery) which is probably just as long as I would have had to wait if I decided to spec & buy a brand new turbo right now. For my 430 it only took a few months from start to finish. Right now I could probably spec and get a 430 delivered faster than a 997 turbo. Your 3 months wait (between ordering & delivery) for your Porsche is about the same for ordering a 430. My point is - order to delivery time is about the same for Porsche & Ferrari and for many F-car guys there is no wait to order. Your point is valid though, the majority of the time it will take longer to get a Ferrari then a Porsche because the majority of time there is a wait to get the order in.

    Re: 997TT vs. F430 depreciation

    Quote:
    STRADALE said:
    I get my Ferrari's just as fast as my Porsche's. My first new Ferrari I had to wait a total of 11 months from deposit to delivery (4 months from order to delivery) which is probably just as long as I would have had to wait if I decided to spec & buy a brand new turbo right now. For my 430 it only took a few months from start to finish. Right now I could probably spec and get a 430 delivered faster than a 997 turbo. Your 3 months wait (between ordering & delivery) for your Porsche is about the same for ordering a 430. My point is - order to delivery time is about the same for Porsche & Ferrari and for many F-car guys there is no wait to order. Your point is valid though, the majority of the time it will take longer to get a Ferrari then a Porsche because the majority of time there is a wait to get the order in.



    You are in a minority, the repeat F buyers. A lot of people would like to buy one, enjoy it, then move to something else and come back to it 5-10 years later. It is not possible right now in the US without participating in a major rip off scheme.

    Re: 997TT vs. F430 depreciation

    Quote:
    DavidSF said:
    Quote:
    STRADALE said:
    Quote:
    DavidSF said:
    Quote:
    nberry said:
    David, if the sole criteria for depreciation is supply how do you explain the pathetic depreciation of the best Porsche ever built the CGT? Only 650 were brought into the US and presently they are selling for at least 1/3 off MSRP.

    Or what about the GT2 which is second to the CGT in performance and less than 750 were brought into the US. They have abysmal resale value less than 2/3 their original selling price.

    Look Porsche makes a terrific car but the have diluted the brand and image. As a result, resale values of their cars compared to other premium brands are far from where they should be.

    Finally, regarding the 430 being ugly, two weeks ago I took my 430 Spider to the Porsche dealer because I had to meet with the service rep.

    A customer with his wife in the showroom walked over to me and said "is that your Yellow Ferrari? May my wife and I go a look at it? How am I suppose to buy a Porsche when I see something like that sitting out there?" I told him because Porsche makes a terrific car.

    My car was parked in the service driveway. The mechanic's and service rep's. were all going outside to look and admire the car. As one mechanic said "there are cars and there are Ferrari's." You are definitely in the minority.



    I didn't mean to imply supply was the only factor in depreciation. Of course demand and mileage are also factors. However in the case of very expensive cars, i.e. $150k+, I do think supply is a bigger factor than demand in resale value. Supply becomes a bigger factor the higher the price. That's why I think the CGT doesn't have very good resale value. There's too many of them. If Porsche made as many CGTs as Ferrari made Enzos, they would be selling for more than MSRP. However Porsche isn't like Ferrari, thank god. Porsche cares about their customers and enthusiasts so they made enough of them so their customers can purchase them without paying "through the nose" and without waiting years. Frankly Nick, I doubt CGT buyers care about resale value. They just want to buy the car without having to wait years. Thus Porsche did the right thing for their customers. Yes, some Porsche owners of cheaper models do complain about resale value but they probably stretched their finances and probably shouldn't have bought it in the first place. Fact is, I, and I think most other enthusiasts, would rather have Porsche models available without a years long wait and at or below MSRP, than excellent resale values. Yes, I would make that trade any day. As for Porsche diluting the brand and image, I don't think that view and importance is as prevalent as you might think. I for one don't care about the Cayenne as long as Porsche continues to produce outstanding sports cars like the 997, Cayman, and Boxster. Something for everyone. It's only the gold diamond encrusted Rolex crowd that care about such things. As for your stories about your Ferrari and the attention it gets, again, there will always be people who will "ooh and awhh" at a gold diamond encrusted Watch. Ferrari is a great marque. But they have gone downhill in terms in styling/design since the F355. Let's hope their new design chief can get away frome the recent weird looking cars (actually the 599 looks good) and restore the classic, distinctive, and classy Ferrari look.

    David




    David - What sports cars do you own/have you owned? Doesn't matter if you haven't owned any, you still have as good a right to post here as any. The reason I ask is I just want to have an idea about where you're getting some of your opinion's from because honestly I'm beginning to think you're kind of a knucklehead. (meant in a playful way) No offense it's just that some of your positions are...well they just seem like personal assumptions than based on reality. Here's what I mean:

    "However Porsche isn't like Ferrari, thank god. Porsche cares about their customers and enthusiasts so they made enough of them so their customers can purchase them without paying "through the nose" "
    First off the majority of owners of both P-car's & F-car's will tell you if Porsche cares about anything it's PROFIT, then the customer. Secondly, it's the CGT owner that is the one "paying through the nose" NOT the Enzo owner.... You're right Porsche isn't like Ferrari when it's regarding where the money goes Porsche pockets the cash with both fists while Ferrari has managed to allow their customers to enjoy their cars trading in whenever they want without taking a bath. If Porsche cared so much about their customers why would they be the most profitable car company on earth making more, sometimes dozens times more per car than Ferrari or any other manufacturer? If they cared so much about getting more CGT's into the hands of customers and not about making money off their customers why would they have CUT at the last minute the amount of CGT's to be produced from 1500 to 1250? Why not just make those 1500 cars and let more people afford them?

    "Frankly Nick, I doubt CGT buyers care about resale value"
    ????? Unless you're a Saudi prince I'm betting you care about what happens to your half a million dollar purchase, whether it be a car, real estate or anything else that costs half a million dollars, the people that can afford a car at that price didn't get wealthy by not caring about what happens to their money.

    "It's only the gold diamond encrusted Rolex crowd that care about such things"
    First off whatever your prejudice is, it's a shame you're continuing it here on a sports car forum. As P-car/ F-Car owners we already have enough clueless people making judgements about why we love these cars. Second off I don't own a gold diamond encrusted Rolex and if someone does good for you. But where do you get this analogy from anyway? I can honestly say that in the last few years of attending dozens of Ferrari events and rally's I've yet to see a single F-car owner wearing a "gold diamond encrusted Rolex". Do you often attend Ferrari rallye's where everyone is wearing diamond encrusted Rolex's or is it just something you decided that you've seen in your mind, kinda like the "vulgar" comment ? It's weird but according to you the Gallardo Spyder is a fantastic looking car but the 430 Spider is like a "gold diamond encrusted Rolex". The cars are very, very similair, it's not like you're comparing a 430 vs a Ford Taurus. Come on, honestly what's your REAL beef w/ Ferrari? Did you get treated badly by a dealer or something?

    RE: Your next post : "I'm blasting Ferrari for "spitting in their customers' faces."
    Yeah, Ferrari customers are really being spit on by Ferrari, the best Ferrari customers those Enzo owners really got the shaft and sucks owning a F430, I feel like I just got ripped off.... The whole Ferrari experience from driving the heck out of my CS and then trading it in 2 years later, making money in the process, to visiting the factory with my wife for a free tour and then picking up my bee spoke, customized 430, the Ferrari dealer/sales experience was just horrible, including the personalized service, wish I was treated more like when I pick up my P-cars. Even my Ferrari dealer's charity rally events that they organize twice a year, where the Police close down traffic on Long Island highways for us to drive on, it's a terrible thing, the balls of them to ask me to participate. Spit! And the icing on the cake - there's the horrible performance of the 430, I mean it's just a terrible car to drive, no fun at all, how can Ferrari even offer this car to it's customers they should be ashamed... Yeah, I feel like Ferrari is spitting at the owners, it's been just terrible. lol! ridiculous.



    I currently own a 2001 base 2.7L Boxster. Previously I owned a Toyota MR-2 turbo. I am a fan of mid-engine sports cars. My next car will be a Cayman S when it gets the HP bump to past 300hp and with PDK. I paid cash for my new Boxster. Resale value isn't that important to me. What was important to me was I got my custom ordered car with only a 3 month wait. That is why I say Porsche cares about its customers more than Ferrari. Porsche's business model is more about the customer, less on the "brand and image" crowd. I say Ferrari is "spitting on their customers' faces" because of these 3 reasons: 1) the customer has to wait years for a new Ferrari. 2) New Ferraris usually sell for more than MSRP. 3) Ferrari has been making terrible looking cars. How can you resolve the above 3 points with customer satisfaction? How is that customer focused? Rather it seems to me Ferrari is trying to manipulate the market for their cars instead of being more accountable and taking responsibility for the quality of the cars they produce. Contrast with Porsche. New Porsches have less than a year wait. Often just 3 months for custom ordered cars. New Porsches can readily be found for under MSRP. Porsches look great. Isn't that very customer focused? If recent Ferraris weren't terrible looking why was their design chief fired? I started the "diamond encrusted Rolex watch" analogy after I read of some magazine's comment that the F430 Spyder was vulgar. I felt it was an appropriate comparision since I consider those wathces vulgar too, yet there are buyers and admirers of such things that I can't understand. Like I said I personally would be embarrassed, and would never wear a gold diamond encrusted watch, like I would never drive a F360 or F430, particularly the Spyder versions. I am making a statement more about the car, and its vulgarities, and not the owners. I do think the Gallardo is far far more classy and elegant looking than the F430. Again using my watch analogies, the Gallardo is like Patek Calatrava and the F430 is like a gold diamond encrusted watch. Both are flashy, no doubt. One is elegant, classy, and beautfiul. The other is not.

    David





    So then Toyota cares about their customers more than Porsche because they can get the car to you faster? Come on.

    "I currently own a 2001 base 2.7L Boxster" - But your biggest gripe about the 430 Spider is it's roll hoops. okay.

    "I say Ferrari is "spitting on their customers' faces" - Not trying to tell you what to do but in the BIGGER PICTURE we're on the same side as car guys, wish you wouldn't use this tone and imho kinda makes you sound very immature but whatever. Same for the "diamond encrusted Rolex watch" comment's. There's better ways to make your point.

    "1) the customer has to wait years for a new Ferrari" - Not always true. And in some cases can be true of Porsche.

    "2) New Ferraris usually sell for more than MSRP."- Not true. Dealers cannot sell New Ferrrai's for more than MSRP but owners of almost new Ferrari's can sell their cars for more than MSRP, not a bad deal for F-car owners if you ask me.

    "3) Ferrari has been making terrible looking cars" - Yeah okay, terrible..

    "I started the "diamond encrusted Rolex watch" analogy after I read of some magazine's comment that the F430 Spyder was vulgar." - I posted the article where you said the "vulgar" comment was printed and the comment wasn't there.

    "Like I said I personally would be embarrassed, and would never wear a gold diamond encrusted watch, like I would never drive a F360 or F430, particularly the Spyder versions." - Still don't get your analogy but okay. And the 430 Spider is "vulgar" but you love the way the Gallardo Spyder looks and would drive that car. okay, I see the big difference. btw: for the Ferrari, it's "Spider".

    "I do think the Gallardo is far far more classy and elegant looking than the F430. Again using my watch analogies, the Gallardo is like Patek Calatrava and the F430 is like a gold diamond encrusted watch." - You sure do hate that watch eh? Okay doke.

    "If recent Ferraris weren't terrible looking why was their design chief fired?" - Again your making your own personal assumptions. Dun no maybe he had Halatoses.

    Let me ask you something - Have you ever driven a F430 or F430 Spider? How about a Gallardo?

    Re: 997TT vs. F430 depreciation

    Quote:
    STRADALE said:
    Quote:
    thuggy said:
    Waiting the three months between order and delivery of my TT was almost killing me... waiting two years for a pleeb buyer like me for a F430 is madness to me. So while you guys are waiting to enjoy your cars, I'm driving mine and the depreciation is just the cost of being able to enjoy it sooner.




    I get my Ferrari's just as fast as my Porsche's. My first new Ferrari I had to wait a total of 11 months from deposit to delivery (4 months from order to delivery) which is probably just as long as I would have had to wait if I decided to spec & buy a brand new turbo right now. For my 430 it only took a few months from start to finish. Right now I could probably spec and get a 430 delivered faster than a 997 turbo. Your 3 months wait (between ordering & delivery) for your Porsche is about the same for ordering a 430. My point is - order to delivery time is about the same for Porsche & Ferrari and for many F-car guys there is no wait to order. Your point is valid though, the majority of the time it will take longer to get a Ferrari then a Porsche because the majority of time there is a wait to get the order in.



    The key for you is "Ferraris"... if it was that easy for the general population, why would people pay over MSRP and you would definitely have greater depreciation as a result.

    Re: 997TT vs. F430 depreciation

    Quote:
    Targa Tim said:
    Quote:
    STRADALE said:
    In addition have you seen reports of how much Porsche makes on each car it sells us? Trust me it's OBSCENE. They're not jusy making profit it's almost like they are gauging customers. No,,,,,, what I have a problem with is the nickel & diming game Porsche plays to make obscene amounts of profit at the expense of their customers. They make approx. $20k + US dollars off each car they sell us but charge $115 for mats in a $140k car. And that's for the cheap mats! lol! Where Ferrari gives you at no charge stuff like car covers, seat covers, leather owners manuals, leather tool cases, free battery chargers, Porsche is busy charging for options (Sport Chrono etc, leather sunvsiors, mats etc. etc. etc) that should be part of the car not thousands of dollars on the option list that come out of our own pockets. With Ferrari you keep getting surprised with the nice stuff they do for you and with Porsche you keep getting surprised with the stuff they keep charging you. It's hard to explain unless you've been a customer of both and been involved in the whole process a few times.



    Hey Stradale,

    I have followed this thread with interest, and had agree with all your posts 100% up until this quote.

    If Porsche is earning $20K+ with each 911, how much do you think Ferrari earns per F430? The freebies that Ferrari gives out with your car seems like peanuts compare to the price you pay them.

    Also look at the maintenance costs of Porsche vs Ferrari. Do you really think the engine oil they put in your F430 is much better than in my 997S? Or do you think the Ferrari technicians hold a higher education degree than the Porsche guys to justify their higher fees?
    I have never own any Ferrari even though I can easily afford one. MSRP of a F430 is twice of my 997S. Honestly, I do not believe that it is twice as good. All cars will depreciate. F430 holds better value mainly because it has a lower production number. Thats all.
    I'm not trying to start an argument with you. But the fact is I don't see how Porsche is ripping off their customers any more than Ferrari will.



    Okay good point the cars are more expensive so they're able to give back some freebies but honestly don't you think some of what Porsche does to us in the options area is pompous? I mean people have posted that if you can afford a 997 turbo paying $115 or $450 for mats shouldn't be a big deal and they're right it's not a lot of money but when you're buying a $100-$160k or whatever price car from them don't you find it somewhat cheesy that they charge you for mats? And sure it's not a big deal for someone that can afford a turbo but then surely it shouldn't be a big deal if Porsche was so customer driven for the most profitable car company on earth to include them either, besides not only are they charging us for the mats they're probably MAKING MONEY by charging us for them too.

    "A new study has found that German sports car maker Porsche earns an incredible average of $28,000 in profit on every vehicle it sells. The figure - printed in Germany's Welt am Sonntag newspaper, citing a study by B&D Forecast - dwarfs the per-car earnings of virtually any other automaker.

    Comparatively, luxury and sports car maker BMW makes about $3,200 per car. Audi nets a less impressive $1,580, and Chrysler and Volkswagen earn just $900 and $400, respectively."

    The " $28,000" was disputed by Porsche because of some other items but estimates are they still make on avg. over $20,000 per vehicle.

    Obviously I'm on the 997 turbo board so guys don't want to speak out against their own choice in vehicle or Porsche, I understand & you guys probably think I'm some Porsche hater but it's not true. You would never recognize me commuting to work this am in my 997 wearing a wool & leather Porsche jacket. lol!! My point is just that after having gone through the new car sales process a few times with both manufacturer's; Ferrari & Porsche it is my own personal opinion that Ferrari is much more focused on the customer and Porsche on the profits if it's the absolute truth there's no way to know. How could you know unless you maybe you spent years working for both companies in various departments and even then I bet a conclusive answer would be hard to figure. Besides overall both companies do a great job of making my two favorite vehicles period. Group hug?

    Re: 997TT vs. F430 depreciation

    Quote:
    STRADALE said:
    Quote:
    Targa Tim said:
    Quote:
    STRADALE said:
    In addition have you seen reports of how much Porsche makes on each car it sells us? Trust me it's OBSCENE. They're not jusy making profit it's almost like they are gauging customers. No,,,,,, what I have a problem with is the nickel & diming game Porsche plays to make obscene amounts of profit at the expense of their customers. They make approx. $20k + US dollars off each car they sell us but charge $115 for mats in a $140k car. And that's for the cheap mats! lol! Where Ferrari gives you at no charge stuff like car covers, seat covers, leather owners manuals, leather tool cases, free battery chargers, Porsche is busy charging for options (Sport Chrono etc, leather sunvsiors, mats etc. etc. etc) that should be part of the car not thousands of dollars on the option list that come out of our own pockets. With Ferrari you keep getting surprised with the nice stuff they do for you and with Porsche you keep getting surprised with the stuff they keep charging you. It's hard to explain unless you've been a customer of both and been involved in the whole process a few times.



    Hey Stradale,

    I have followed this thread with interest, and had agree with all your posts 100% up until this quote.

    If Porsche is earning $20K+ with each 911, how much do you think Ferrari earns per F430? The freebies that Ferrari gives out with your car seems like peanuts compare to the price you pay them.

    Also look at the maintenance costs of Porsche vs Ferrari. Do you really think the engine oil they put in your F430 is much better than in my 997S? Or do you think the Ferrari technicians hold a higher education degree than the Porsche guys to justify their higher fees?
    I have never own any Ferrari even though I can easily afford one. MSRP of a F430 is twice of my 997S. Honestly, I do not believe that it is twice as good. All cars will depreciate. F430 holds better value mainly because it has a lower production number. Thats all.
    I'm not trying to start an argument with you. But the fact is I don't see how Porsche is ripping off their customers any more than Ferrari will.



    Okay good point the cars are more expensive so they're able to give back some freebies but honestly don't you think some of what Porsche does to us in the options area is pompous? I mean people have posted that if you can afford a 997 turbo paying $115 or $450 for mats shouldn't be a big deal and they're right it's not a lot of money but when you're buying a $100-$160k or whatever price car from them don't you find it somewhat cheesy that they charge you for mats? And sure it's not a big deal for someone that can afford a turbo but then surely it shouldn't be a big deal if Porsche was so customer driven for the most profitable car company on earth to include them either, besides not only are they charging us for the mats they're probably MAKING MONEY by charging us for them too.

    "A new study has found that German sports car maker Porsche earns an incredible average of $28,000 in profit on every vehicle it sells. The figure - printed in Germany's Welt am Sonntag newspaper, citing a study by B&D Forecast - dwarfs the per-car earnings of virtually any other automaker.

    Comparatively, luxury and sports car maker BMW makes about $3,200 per car. Audi nets a less impressive $1,580, and Chrysler and Volkswagen earn just $900 and $400, respectively."

    The " $28,000" was disputed by Porsche because of some other items but estimates are they still make on avg. over $20,000 per vehicle.

    Obviously I'm on the 997 turbo board so guys don't want to speak out against their own choice in vehicle or Porsche, I understand & you guys probably think I'm some Porsche hater but it's not true. You would never recognize me commuting to work this am in my 997 wearing a wool & leather Porsche jacket. lol!! My point is just that after having gone through the new car sales process a few times with both manufacturer's; Ferrari & Porsche it is my own personal opinion that Ferrari is much more focused on the customer and Porsche on the profits if it's the absolute truth there's no way to know. How could you know unless you maybe you spent years working for both companies in various departments and even then I bet a conclusive answer would be hard to figure. Besides overall both companies do a great job of making my two favorite vehicles period. Group hug?



    Do you not think Ferrari is just as focused about profits and its just that the Italians haven't figured out how to do it yet?

    Re: 997TT vs. F430 depreciation

    Anyway once F raises production, all this talk will be gone.

    Re: 997TT vs. F430 depreciation

    Aren't Ferrari developing a lower cost higher volume model? The Dino? And they are trying very hard not to have people referring to it as the budget Ferrari?

    Re: 997TT vs. F430 depreciation

    Quote:
    STRADALE said:
    Quote:
    DavidSF said:
    Quote:
    STRADALE said:
    Quote:
    DavidSF said:
    Quote:
    nberry said:
    David, if the sole criteria for depreciation is supply how do you explain the pathetic depreciation of the best Porsche ever built the CGT? Only 650 were brought into the US and presently they are selling for at least 1/3 off MSRP.

    Or what about the GT2 which is second to the CGT in performance and less than 750 were brought into the US. They have abysmal resale value less than 2/3 their original selling price.

    Look Porsche makes a terrific car but the have diluted the brand and image. As a result, resale values of their cars compared to other premium brands are far from where they should be.

    Finally, regarding the 430 being ugly, two weeks ago I took my 430 Spider to the Porsche dealer because I had to meet with the service rep.

    A customer with his wife in the showroom walked over to me and said "is that your Yellow Ferrari? May my wife and I go a look at it? How am I suppose to buy a Porsche when I see something like that sitting out there?" I told him because Porsche makes a terrific car.

    My car was parked in the service driveway. The mechanic's and service rep's. were all going outside to look and admire the car. As one mechanic said "there are cars and there are Ferrari's." You are definitely in the minority.



    I didn't mean to imply supply was the only factor in depreciation. Of course demand and mileage are also factors. However in the case of very expensive cars, i.e. $150k+, I do think supply is a bigger factor than demand in resale value. Supply becomes a bigger factor the higher the price. That's why I think the CGT doesn't have very good resale value. There's too many of them. If Porsche made as many CGTs as Ferrari made Enzos, they would be selling for more than MSRP. However Porsche isn't like Ferrari, thank god. Porsche cares about their customers and enthusiasts so they made enough of them so their customers can purchase them without paying "through the nose" and without waiting years. Frankly Nick, I doubt CGT buyers care about resale value. They just want to buy the car without having to wait years. Thus Porsche did the right thing for their customers. Yes, some Porsche owners of cheaper models do complain about resale value but they probably stretched their finances and probably shouldn't have bought it in the first place. Fact is, I, and I think most other enthusiasts, would rather have Porsche models available without a years long wait and at or below MSRP, than excellent resale values. Yes, I would make that trade any day. As for Porsche diluting the brand and image, I don't think that view and importance is as prevalent as you might think. I for one don't care about the Cayenne as long as Porsche continues to produce outstanding sports cars like the 997, Cayman, and Boxster. Something for everyone. It's only the gold diamond encrusted Rolex crowd that care about such things. As for your stories about your Ferrari and the attention it gets, again, there will always be people who will "ooh and awhh" at a gold diamond encrusted Watch. Ferrari is a great marque. But they have gone downhill in terms in styling/design since the F355. Let's hope their new design chief can get away frome the recent weird looking cars (actually the 599 looks good) and restore the classic, distinctive, and classy Ferrari look.

    David




    David - What sports cars do you own/have you owned? Doesn't matter if you haven't owned any, you still have as good a right to post here as any. The reason I ask is I just want to have an idea about where you're getting some of your opinion's from because honestly I'm beginning to think you're kind of a knucklehead. (meant in a playful way) No offense it's just that some of your positions are...well they just seem like personal assumptions than based on reality. Here's what I mean:

    "However Porsche isn't like Ferrari, thank god. Porsche cares about their customers and enthusiasts so they made enough of them so their customers can purchase them without paying "through the nose" "
    First off the majority of owners of both P-car's & F-car's will tell you if Porsche cares about anything it's PROFIT, then the customer. Secondly, it's the CGT owner that is the one "paying through the nose" NOT the Enzo owner.... You're right Porsche isn't like Ferrari when it's regarding where the money goes Porsche pockets the cash with both fists while Ferrari has managed to allow their customers to enjoy their cars trading in whenever they want without taking a bath. If Porsche cared so much about their customers why would they be the most profitable car company on earth making more, sometimes dozens times more per car than Ferrari or any other manufacturer? If they cared so much about getting more CGT's into the hands of customers and not about making money off their customers why would they have CUT at the last minute the amount of CGT's to be produced from 1500 to 1250? Why not just make those 1500 cars and let more people afford them?

    "Frankly Nick, I doubt CGT buyers care about resale value"
    ????? Unless you're a Saudi prince I'm betting you care about what happens to your half a million dollar purchase, whether it be a car, real estate or anything else that costs half a million dollars, the people that can afford a car at that price didn't get wealthy by not caring about what happens to their money.

    "It's only the gold diamond encrusted Rolex crowd that care about such things"
    First off whatever your prejudice is, it's a shame you're continuing it here on a sports car forum. As P-car/ F-Car owners we already have enough clueless people making judgements about why we love these cars. Second off I don't own a gold diamond encrusted Rolex and if someone does good for you. But where do you get this analogy from anyway? I can honestly say that in the last few years of attending dozens of Ferrari events and rally's I've yet to see a single F-car owner wearing a "gold diamond encrusted Rolex". Do you often attend Ferrari rallye's where everyone is wearing diamond encrusted Rolex's or is it just something you decided that you've seen in your mind, kinda like the "vulgar" comment ? It's weird but according to you the Gallardo Spyder is a fantastic looking car but the 430 Spider is like a "gold diamond encrusted Rolex". The cars are very, very similair, it's not like you're comparing a 430 vs a Ford Taurus. Come on, honestly what's your REAL beef w/ Ferrari? Did you get treated badly by a dealer or something?

    RE: Your next post : "I'm blasting Ferrari for "spitting in their customers' faces."
    Yeah, Ferrari customers are really being spit on by Ferrari, the best Ferrari customers those Enzo owners really got the shaft and sucks owning a F430, I feel like I just got ripped off.... The whole Ferrari experience from driving the heck out of my CS and then trading it in 2 years later, making money in the process, to visiting the factory with my wife for a free tour and then picking up my bee spoke, customized 430, the Ferrari dealer/sales experience was just horrible, including the personalized service, wish I was treated more like when I pick up my P-cars. Even my Ferrari dealer's charity rally events that they organize twice a year, where the Police close down traffic on Long Island highways for us to drive on, it's a terrible thing, the balls of them to ask me to participate. Spit! And the icing on the cake - there's the horrible performance of the 430, I mean it's just a terrible car to drive, no fun at all, how can Ferrari even offer this car to it's customers they should be ashamed... Yeah, I feel like Ferrari is spitting at the owners, it's been just terrible. lol! ridiculous.



    I currently own a 2001 base 2.7L Boxster. Previously I owned a Toyota MR-2 turbo. I am a fan of mid-engine sports cars. My next car will be a Cayman S when it gets the HP bump to past 300hp and with PDK. I paid cash for my new Boxster. Resale value isn't that important to me. What was important to me was I got my custom ordered car with only a 3 month wait. That is why I say Porsche cares about its customers more than Ferrari. Porsche's business model is more about the customer, less on the "brand and image" crowd. I say Ferrari is "spitting on their customers' faces" because of these 3 reasons: 1) the customer has to wait years for a new Ferrari. 2) New Ferraris usually sell for more than MSRP. 3) Ferrari has been making terrible looking cars. How can you resolve the above 3 points with customer satisfaction? How is that customer focused? Rather it seems to me Ferrari is trying to manipulate the market for their cars instead of being more accountable and taking responsibility for the quality of the cars they produce. Contrast with Porsche. New Porsches have less than a year wait. Often just 3 months for custom ordered cars. New Porsches can readily be found for under MSRP. Porsches look great. Isn't that very customer focused? If recent Ferraris weren't terrible looking why was their design chief fired? I started the "diamond encrusted Rolex watch" analogy after I read of some magazine's comment that the F430 Spyder was vulgar. I felt it was an appropriate comparision since I consider those wathces vulgar too, yet there are buyers and admirers of such things that I can't understand. Like I said I personally would be embarrassed, and would never wear a gold diamond encrusted watch, like I would never drive a F360 or F430, particularly the Spyder versions. I am making a statement more about the car, and its vulgarities, and not the owners. I do think the Gallardo is far far more classy and elegant looking than the F430. Again using my watch analogies, the Gallardo is like Patek Calatrava and the F430 is like a gold diamond encrusted watch. Both are flashy, no doubt. One is elegant, classy, and beautfiul. The other is not.

    David





    So then Toyota cares about their customers more than Porsche because they can get the car to you faster? Come on.

    "I currently own a 2001 base 2.7L Boxster" - But your biggest gripe about the 430 Spider is it's roll hoops. okay.

    "I say Ferrari is "spitting on their customers' faces" - Not trying to tell you what to do but in the BIGGER PICTURE we're on the same side as car guys, wish you wouldn't use this tone and imho kinda makes you sound very immature but whatever. Same for the "diamond encrusted Rolex watch" comment's. There's better ways to make your point.

    "1) the customer has to wait years for a new Ferrari" - Not always true. And in some cases can be true of Porsche.

    "2) New Ferraris usually sell for more than MSRP."- Not true. Dealers cannot sell New Ferrrai's for more than MSRP but owners of almost new Ferrari's can sell their cars for more than MSRP, not a bad deal for F-car owners if you ask me.

    "3) Ferrari has been making terrible looking cars" - Yeah okay, terrible..

    "I started the "diamond encrusted Rolex watch" analogy after I read of some magazine's comment that the F430 Spyder was vulgar." - I posted the article where you said the "vulgar" comment was printed and the comment wasn't there.

    "Like I said I personally would be embarrassed, and would never wear a gold diamond encrusted watch, like I would never drive a F360 or F430, particularly the Spyder versions." - Still don't get your analogy but okay. And the 430 Spider is "vulgar" but you love the way the Gallardo Spyder looks and would drive that car. okay, I see the big difference. btw: for the Ferrari, it's "Spider".

    "I do think the Gallardo is far far more classy and elegant looking than the F430. Again using my watch analogies, the Gallardo is like Patek Calatrava and the F430 is like a gold diamond encrusted watch." - You sure do hate that watch eh? Okay doke.

    "If recent Ferraris weren't terrible looking why was their design chief fired?" - Again your making your own personal assumptions. Dun no maybe he had Halatoses.

    Let me ask you something - Have you ever driven a F430 or F430 Spider? How about a Gallardo?



    Yes of course Toyota cares more about their customers than Porsche! Look at the price, volume, and reliability! Roll hoops are appropriate for a $50k convertible. It is inappropriate for a $200k convertible. Look at the Mercedes SL, Bently GTC, Lambo Gallardo Spyder, etc..No roll hoops. The roll hoops make the F430 Spider look cheap. Humps make it look even worse. I read the vulgar comment in some magazine. Not Evo, but I will find it, one of these days. I have never driven the F430 or Gallardo, but I have seen the F430 Spider and Gallardo Spyder in person, and I can say without a doubt the F430 Spider is fugly. I would never drive such a car in public the same reason I would never wear a gold diamond encrusted Rolex watch. I'm sure it's a fun car to drive but what's the point if I'm red with embarassment.

    David

    Re: 997TT vs. F430 depreciation

    Jeez this is a long thread...

    Re: 997TT vs. F430 depreciation

    Quote:
    STRADALE said: "A new study has found that German sports car maker Porsche earns an incredible average of $28,000 in profit on every vehicle it sells. The figure - printed in Germany's Welt am Sonntag newspaper, citing a study by B&D Forecast - dwarfs the per-car earnings of virtually any other automaker.

    The " $28,000" was disputed by Porsche because of some other items but estimates are they still make on avg. over $20,000 per vehicle.

    IIRC, this $28k figure was calculated by taking Porsche's total earnings INCLUDING the return on their VW investment and dividing by the number of cars sold. It does not represent their profit per car.

    Re: 997TT vs. F430 depreciation

    What I think Porsche has done well is build a differentiated and appealing driver's car, one for which there is "no substitute". Toyota, GM, Ford, etc -- lots of substitutes.

    By building a car we want, are passionate about, love driving, and are reliable enough to be used on a daily basis, they've done a good job of being "customer friendly". We're willing pay lots of money for these special and unique cars; we agree to be gouged ridiculous and insulting prices for options, and still come back for more. Porsche makes huge profits from this approach -- the most profitable car company in the world. They may incur ill-will from their customers, but at the moment they are able to get away with it.

    Times may change. They were different, for example, for Porsche in the early 90's when the 911 was viewed to be uncompetitive and overpriced. Production costs were high and sales too low. The 993 was priced quite low when it first came out (as was the Boxster) and was an immediate hit.

    Other car companies couldn't get away with that gouging because there are good substitutes.

     
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