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    Gordon Murray - T.50

    So Gordon Murray is producing his own version of the "New F1":

    Details per article:

    • 980Kg 
    • V12 [Cosworth]
    • No hybrid 
    • 6 speed manual [Xtrac]
    • Central driving position 
    • Some type of fan system for controlling downforce [Brahbam F1 car style]
    • 100 units
    • 2022 production

     

    https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/gordon-murray-launch-mclaren-f1-successor-2022


    Re: Gordon Murray - T.50

    The new future king of the hill, collectors must be fighting to get on the list....


    --

    997.2 4S / BMW X5 40e / Donkervoort GT 


    Re: Gordon Murray - T.50

    Look how low the seating is!


    --

    Past-President, Porsche Club of America - Upper Canada Region


    Re: Gordon Murray - T.50

    164 HP per Liter from NA V-12 connected to Manual gearbox? 3.36 pounds per HP?  Was he intercepting my dreams at night? indecision


    --

     

    18 GT3 Manual, 73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 16 Cayman GT4, 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550, 79 635CSi

     


    Re: Gordon Murray - T.50

    1559765083046image.png

    Gordon Murray Automotive reveals details for its new ‘T.50’: the purest, lightest, most driver-focused supercar ever

    • Designed to the same exacting engineering standards as the driver-focused McLaren F1; improves upon its iconic predecessor in every way
    • Mid-engine and rear-wheel-drive layout; famed central driving position and
    • H-pattern gearbox all key to a matchless experience behind the wheel
    • All-new V12 to be the highest-revving engine ever used in a production car; produces unrivalled power-to-weight
    • ‘Fan car’ technology delivers the most advanced aerodynamics yet seen on a road car
    • Unique carbon fibre tub and a focus on minimising the weight of every component underpin ‘lightweighting’ strategy – overall weight is just 980kg
    • New model will set new standards for supercar packaging, providing driver and two passengers with exceptional comfort, safety, practicality and luggage space
    • Only 100 exclusive models to be produced costing in excess of £2m (before taxes); deliveries from early 2022.

    Gordon Murray Automotive, sister-business of visionary vehicle design and engineering company Gordon Murray Design, has announced details of its first vehicle – the T.50 supercar. Conceived as the spiritual successor to the Murray-devised McLaren F1, the T.50 will be the purest, lightest, most driver-focused supercar ever built.

    The development of T.50 is at an advanced stage, with full production and customer deliveries set to commence in early 2022. Just 100 owners of the T.50 will experience Murray’s vision – a supercar inspired by his 50 years at the pinnacle of Formula One and automotive industry engineering and design.

    Professor Gordon Murray CBE, Chairman of Gordon Murray Group, said:“An unflinching dedication to lightweighting, highly-advanced active aerodynamics and world-leading standards of advanced engineering will ensure the T.50 rewrites the supercar rulebook. Our experienced team is applying the same uncompromising approach to design and engineering that shaped every facet of the F1, and they are able to deliver substantial improvements over that car in every meaningful way.”

    The engineering planning, plus all interior and exterior styling of the new vehicle has been carried out by Gordon Murray Design. It will be manufactured in the UK by Gordon Murray Automotive – a new company first announced in late 2017 at the One Formula exhibition. The event celebrated 50 years of Murray’s career in motorsport and automotive design and engineering, plus it previewed plans to build a limited-run supercar – the T.50. Every race or road car penned by Murray so far has featured a ‘T’ designation; and the T.50 will be the 50th in a highly illustrious line.

    The T.50 breaks from performance-car convention, just as the F1 did in 1992. It weighs significantly less than any other current supercar. It has the most advanced aerodynamics of any road car, and it relies on design and engineering excellence to deliver the purest, most driver-focused performance and dynamics of any road car since the F1.

    It will be powered by a compact and light, naturally-aspirated, all-new V12 engine. The unit will be capable of an extraordinary 12,100rpm – unparalleled in a V12 road car – and 650hp to deliver unmatched power-to-weight. However, Murray says: “I have absolutely no interest in chasing records for top speed or acceleration. Our focus is instead on delivering the purest, most rewarding driving experience of any supercar ever built – but, rest assured, it will be quick.”

    The T.50 adopts the same, iconic three-seat format that Murray pioneered for the F1, with the driver benefitting from a central ‘jet-fighter-style’ driving position. The new car builds on the F1’s highly-advanced aerodynamics, taking Murray’s ground-effect innovations to an all-new level with intelligent management of underbody airflow coupled with a 400mm fan at the rear. The fan actively controls underbody airflow – a feature Murray famously premiered on the Brabham BT46B Formula One ‘Fan Car’. This approach allows the upper surfaces of the car to retain purity and beauty, eschewing the exaggerated scoops and spoilers familiar in the segment and equipping the T.50 with the most advanced aerodynamics of any road car

    All engineering, design and styling of the T.50 is by Gordon Murray Design and the car will be manufactured by Gordon Murray Automotive at a new, purpose-built facility in Surrey, UK. Furthermore, all major components will be bespoke and UK-sourced, including the powertrain, body and chassis. This will be a true British supercar.

    The T.50, by Gordon Murray Automotive will be priced in excess of £2 million before taxes.

    T.50 IN DETAIL

    Setting new standards in lightweighting, the T.50 supercar weighs significantly less than any existing supercar

    “Automotive enthusiasts and road-test editors have discussed the concept of ‘peak supercar’ for some time,” says Murray. “The reality of chasing top speeds only adds weight, notably through ever-more powerful engines, which increase the requirement for larger, heavier ancillaries. We are taking a very different approach.”

    Ingrained in the approach of the Gordon Murray Automotive product development strategy is a fastidious commitment to minimise weight – inevery component. “This is the key to achieving enhanced performance and dynamics, and refocusing the supercar on the driver and the thrill of driving. We’re not interested in simply chasing numbers, and never will be,” asserts Murray.

    Gordon Murray Automotive will produce the world’s lightest, most driver-focused supercar through sophisticated use of advanced carbon fibre engineering and this fanatical dedication to purging the vehicle of every unproductive gram.

    The T.50 supercar will weigh just 980kg – around a third lighter than the average supercar – making it, by far, the lightest supercar ever.

    With a clear driver-focus, the external proportions are highly compact (smaller than the footprint of a Porsche 911 at just 4,380mm long and 1,850mm wide) to optimise handling, while the interior is nonetheless spacious and comfortable for three, with ample dedicated space for luggage.

    The most advanced aerodynamics of any road car

    In rewriting the supercar rulebook, Gordon Murray Automotive set out to equip the T.50 supercar with the most advanced aerodynamics of any road car. The new model will feature intelligent under-body active aerodynamics, which employs continuous, dynamic and interactive underbody ground-effect systems to optimise the driving experience.

    Uniquely, the supercar will feature a 400mm ground-effect fan, similar to that on Murray’s famous Brabham BT46B Formula One ‘Fan Car’. The Gordon Murray Automotive team has established a new technical partnership with a Formula One team, which will make its rolling-road wind tunnel available to develop the aerodynamics of the T.50.

    With all of the car’s intelligent aerodynamic sophistication housed beneath the car, the upper surfaces are free from unsightly wings, outlets, vents and bulges, safeguarding the purity and beauty of the exterior design. The sense of drama, even when stationary, is amplified by the striking dihedral doors that hark back to the F1 – where they first appeared on a supercar.

    An engineering work of art with bespoke powertrain and running gear

    Through exquisite engineering, every part of the T.50 is refined to create the purest, most focused supercar ever made – “We expect this to be the last, and the greatest, ‘analogue’ supercar ever built,” says Murray.

    The T.50 features a bespoke, mid-mounted, all-new V12 engine that has been designed, developed and built exclusively for Gordon Murray Automotive by Cosworth Powertrain.

    The V12 3.9-litre ‘Cosworth Gordon Murray Automotive’ engine will rev to an unparalleled 12,100rpm and develops 650hp and 450Nm torque. Paired with the car’s extraordinary lightness (980kg), it achieves a power-to-weight of 663hp/ton exceeding that of any other naturally-aspirated sports car designed for the road.

    The V12 Cosworth GMA engine delivers more power from four litres than the F1 produced with 6.1 litres in 1992, an achievement aided by the inclusion of roof-fed ram-air induction, which increases horsepower to around 700hp.

    Cosworth Managing Director, Powertrain, Bruce Wood, said: “We are tremendously excited to be part of the T.50 supercar project, and to have the opportunity to work alongside Gordon Murray Automotive. It is a real privilege to play such a key role in the T.50 with an all-new V12 3.9-litre engine, designed, developed, manufactured and assembled by Cosworth’s industry-leading powertrain division.

    “Developing an engine that delivers superlative performance, while meeting stringent emissions targets, is a challenge that demonstrates Cosworth’s unique capabilities. To be so intrinsically aligned with a supercar that puts engine performance, response and light weighting at the very heart of the driving experience is the ultimate accolade and underscores Cosworth’s reputation and capabilities as a leading OEM tier one powertrain partner.”

    The Gordon Murray Automotive team was focused on producing the purest driving experience so rejected the use of turbos or electrified powertrain assistance, instead applying attention to engine response.

    Murray adds: “By working with the team at Cosworth Powertrain we have created the greatest naturally-aspirated engine ever designed for the road. It is the highest revving, highest power density, lightest and fastest-responding naturally-aspirated V12 ever made for a road car.”

    Power is transferred to the rear wheels via a bespoke, lightweight six-speed transmission designed in conjunction with British transmission technology specialists Xtrac. In the furtherance of maximum driver reward and low weight, Murray has specified the T.50 with a newly-designed and developed ‘H-pattern’ six-speed gearbox – deliberately eschewing the twin-clutch solution favoured by many supercar makers. The brakes, also developed specially for the T.50, shed speed through a combination of lightweight monobloc alloy calipers and new technology carbon-ceramic discs.

    Applying the same driver-focused engineering principles that shaped the F1

    The T.50 supercar is the spiritual successor to the ground-breaking F1, and is being developed with the same unwavering focus on engineering purity and quality.

    “Just as with the F1, we have no specific targets for acceleration, top speed or lap times,” explains Murray. “The F1 was fast because it was light and relatively small. The T.50 will deliver performance and dynamic characteristics simply out of reach for other supercars not least because of its low weight. Once again, I have focused on the complete driving experience, not horsepower or top speed.”

    The central driving position provides a perfect ‘jet-fighter-style’ visibility, while analogue instruments and driver-centric controls are positioned to provide an even more intuitive and immersive driving experience than the acclaimed F1.

    Armed with the same mid-engined, rear-wheel-drive set-up, the new T.50 supercar has perfect weight distribution and will boast incomparable vehicle dynamics and driver feel. Despite the car’s performance capabilities, it is far from a stripped-back racer. The T.50 is an ‘everyday supercar’ capable of GT-style cruising in spacious comfort with room for driver, two passengers and luggage.

    “I designed the F1 as a sort of super GT car – absolutely road-focused with no plan to go racing, which is why the car set new standards for packaging and luggage space. The T.50 design has the same focus and betters the F1 in every area – ingress and egress; luggage capacity; serviceability; maintenance and suspension set-up. Also, driver-selectable engine maps ensure a driving mode to suit every situation,” concludes Murray.

    -Ends-

    Technical specifications

    General

    Body type

    Two doors, three seats, Grand Tourer Supercar

    Engine

    Cosworth-GMA 3.9l 65° V12 N/A twin-cam

    Weight

    980kg

    Length

    4,380mm

    Width

    1,850mm

    Motor and transmission

    Type

    Naturally aspirated V12

    Displacement

    3,980cc

    Layout

    Rear mid-engine

    Maximum power

    650hp

    Maximum torque

    450Nm

    Valves

    Four valves per cylinder

    Fuel system

    Petrol pfi aluminium fuel tank

    Maximum engine revs

    12,100rpm

    Engine details / overview

    Dry sump lubrication

     

    Variable valve timing

     

    Highest-revving road car engine (no flywheel / lightweight clutch)

     

    Structural chassis member

     

    Ram-air induction system

     

    Cutting-edge materials and coatings

     

    All light alloy (including magnesium and titanium)

    Transmission

    Bespoke lightweight six-speed transmission

     

    Light alloy casing

     

    Limited-slip differential

     

    Lightweight clutch

     

    Gun-drilled drive shafts

    Chassis and body

    Drive type

    Rear-wheel drive

    Chassis

    Primary structure handmade sandwich-panel carbon monocoque, including semi-structural powertrain utilising high-modulus adhesive

    Body

    Carbon composite panels

    Occupant architecture

    Central driving position – three seats

    Suspension and brakes

    Front suspension

    Rod / operated rising rate; double wishbone; anti-roll bar

    Rear suspension

    Rod / operated rising rate; double wishbone – inclined shear axis; powertrain mass damper

    Brakes

    Carbon-ceramic discs

     

    Aluminium floating disc bells

     

    Monobloc light alloy calipers

     

    Low boost assist / ABS

    Steering

    LSPA rack and pinion

    Wheels

    Forged light alloy

    Aerodynamics

    Active ground-effect with full-width diffuser and fan-assisted underbody airflow – brake balance foil

    Notes to editors

    Gordon Murray Automotive

    Gordon Murray Automotive was launched in November 2017. The T.50 supercar will be the first model manufactured by the new company. Alongside production of its own vehicles, Gordon Murray Automotive will manufacture vehicles on a low-volume basis for external customers.

    Gordon Murray Automotive forms part of a new corporate organisation for the engineering group, and is positioned as a sister company to Gordon Murray Design.

    Gordon Murray Design

    Gordon Murray Design is a visionary design and engineering company with its headquarters in Surrey, UK. It was established in 2007 with a focus on developing an innovative and disruptive manufacturing technology trademarked iStream, and has since built a global reputation as one of the finest automotive design teams in the world.

    The company’s unique approach and truly creative thinking enables Gordon Murray Design to deliver complete car programmes in a highly efficient and innovative way from concept and design, through to prototype and development for production.

    Cosworth Powertrain

    Cosworth has used the rigours of motorsport to transform itself into a growing and profitable Tier 1 supplier to automotive manufacturers. The company’s unparalleled capabilities in powertrain and performance electronics have been honed from six decades at the very pinnacle of automotive engineering. In response to the significant advances in the automotive and motorsport landscape, Cosworth has always sought to develop technologies to meet ever-evolving demands from its customers. Whether it is through propulsion, hybridisation, connectivity or automation technology, Cosworth is ready to solve the new challenges on the road, racetrack and in the air with the mobility solutions of the future. www.cosworth.com

    Xtrac

    Xtrac is the world-leader in the design and manufacture of high-performance transmissions and driveline components used by virtually all the world's top-level motorsport teams. High-performance automotive customers rely on Xtrac’s specialist expertise, particularly for the development of hypercar transmissions, as well as advanced highly-integrated transmissions, in the next generation of hybrid and electric vehicles.

    Xtrac is a major ambassador for the UK’s motorsport industry and employs 360 highly qualified staff, including 47 who have been trained through Xtrac’s award winning apprentice and undergraduate schemes. They work on global customer programmes, of which 80 per cent are exported to the US, South America, Europe, Asia and many other countries. Further information at  www.xtrac.com.

    Professor Gordon Murray, CBE – biography

    Gordon Murray was born in Durban, South Africa in 1946 and gained a Mechanical Engineering Diploma from Natal Technical College. He designed, built and raced his own sports car (the IGM Ford) in the National Class in South Africa during 1967 and 1968.

    In 1969 Gordon moved to the UK and joined the Brabham Formula One Team as Technical Director, winning two world championships (1981 and 1983) during his 17 years with the team. Gordon joined McLaren Racing as Technical Director in 1988 and three consecutive championship wins (1988, 1989 and 1990) followed. In 1990, Gordon moved away from Formula One – after 50 Grand Prix wins – to concentrate on establishing a new company for the group, McLaren Cars Limited.

    The company’s first project, the F1 road car, is still regarded as one of the world’s best-engineered cars. A racing version won two world sports car championships and the Le Mans 24-hour race on its first attempt in 1995. McLaren Cars then completed several other successful projects culminating in the Mercedes-Benz SLR McLaren programme.

    Gordon left McLaren in 2005 to set up a new company Gordon Murray Design Ltd (in 2007), of which he is Chairman and Technical Director. The innovative British company operates from Surrey, UK and aims to be the world leader in automotive design. It reverses the current industry trend for sub-contracting by having a complete in-house capability for design, prototyping and development.

    In 2017, Gordon Murray Design celebrated the company’s 10-year anniversary along with that of the iStream® manufacturing process. At a special event, named ‘One Formula’ Gordon Murray also celebrated the 25th anniversary of the McLaren F1 road car entering production, and his 50th year of car design and engineering.

    In May 2019, Professor Murray was made a Commander of the British Empire (CBE) by the Duke of Cambridge, Prince William. The ceremony, held at Buckingham Palace, recognised the contributions made by Murray to the motorsport and automotive sectors over the past 50 years.

    1559765198650image.jpeg

    Press Release:  https://www.gordonmurraydesign.com/news-articles/gordon-murray-automotive-reveals-details-for-its-new-‘t.50’-the-pur...

    1559765816899image.png

    Video Link:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o3dJciP5yP8

    Smiley 


    Re: Gordon Murray - T.50

    But who is supposed to build it? Under what brand? I'm really happy to hear of this release, but a bit sceptical of its feasibility to be honest...


    --

    1969 Mercedes-Benz 300SEL 6.3  / 2008 Porsche 911 GT3 RS (sold) / 2011 Mercedes-Benz C63 AMG Performance / 2014 BMW-Alpina D3 biturbo Touring / 2018 Porsche 911 GT3 Clubsport


    Re: Gordon Murray - T.50

    Porker:

    But who is supposed to build it? Under what brand? I'm really happy to hear of this release, but a bit sceptical of its feasibility to be honest.

    Yes, how long will that engine last at over 12K revs?


    Re: Gordon Murray - T.50

    crayphile:
    Porker:

    But who is supposed to build it? Under what brand? I'm really happy to hear of this release, but a bit sceptical of its feasibility to be honest.

    Yes, how long will that engine last at over 12K revs?

    I’m not sure it has to be quite the grenade it may seem.  Consider that it has less displacement than a GT3, but has twice the cylinders.  So, the average piston speeds and inertia are far lower than you would expect with those sorts of revs (much lighter pistons that move a much shorter distance per rev).  For example, when F1 cars had 2.4L NA V8 engines they revved over 20,000 rpm (for a few hours).  

    They had similar displacement per cylinder as this T50 car (300cc vs. 330cc)...

    In fact, with only a stroke of less than 40mm, piston speeds of this F1 engine at 20,000 rpm were similar to the GT3 at its 9,000 rpm redline (81.5mm stroke and 667cc displacement per cylinder).

    https://www.enginelabs.com/news/high-revving-thrills-formula-1-engines-at-20000-rpm/

    And if the T50 has a similar bore x stroke as the V8 F1 engines, then piston speeds at 12,000 rpm will be similar to a GT3 at just over 6,000 rpm.  But, they will likely go for a bit less bore and a bit more stroke for better driveability (but entirely likely that its pistons will be moving at average speeds slower than a GT3's).


    --

     

    18 GT3 Manual, 73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 16 Cayman GT4, 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550, 79 635CSi

     


    Re: Gordon Murray - T.50

    Grant:
    crayphile:
    Porker:

    But who is supposed to build it? Under what brand? I'm really happy to hear of this release, but a bit sceptical of its feasibility to be honest.

    Yes, how long will that engine last at over 12K revs?

    I’m not sure it has to be quite the grenade it may seem.  Consider that it has less displacement than a GT3, but has twice the cylinders.  So, the average piston speeds and inertia are far lower than you would expect with those sorts of revs (much lighter pistons that move a much shorter distance per rev).  For example, when F1 cars had 2.4L NA V8 engines they revved over 20,000 rpm (for a few hours).  

    They had similar displacement per cylinder as this T50 car (300cc vs. 330cc)...

    In fact, with only a stroke of less than 40mm, piston speeds of this F1 engine at 20,000 rpm were similar to the GT3 at its 9,000 rpm redline (81.5mm stroke and 667cc displacement per cylinder).

    https://www.enginelabs.com/news/high-revving-thrills-formula-1-engines-at-20000-rpm/

    And if the T50 has a similar bore x stroke as the V8 F1 engines, then piston speeds at 12,000 rpm will be similar to a GT3 at just over 6,000 rpm.  But, they will likely go for a bit less bore and a bit more stroke for better driveability (but entirely likely that its pistons will be moving at average speeds slower than a GT3's).


    --

     

    18 GT3 Manual, 73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 16 Cayman GT4, 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550, 79 635CSi

     

    That's interesting, thanks! 


    --

    1969 Mercedes-Benz 300SEL 6.3  / 2008 Porsche 911 GT3 RS (sold) / 2011 Mercedes-Benz C63 AMG Performance / 2014 BMW-Alpina D3 biturbo Touring / 2018 Porsche 911 GT3 Clubsport


    Re: Gordon Murray - T.50

    Lenght 4.380 mm and width 1.85 mm. The right dimensions . The Mclaren F1 was 4.287 mm and 1.82 mm.  


    Re: Gordon Murray - T.50

    If it does happen, I'm certain I want it. That next to a Carrera GT and a tent to sleep in. My life is complete...


    --

    1969 Mercedes-Benz 300SEL 6.3  / 2008 Porsche 911 GT3 RS (sold) / 2011 Mercedes-Benz C63 AMG Performance / 2014 BMW-Alpina D3 biturbo Touring / 2018 Porsche 911 GT3 Clubsport


    Re: Gordon Murray - T.50

    And if the T50 has a similar bore x stroke as the V8 F1 engines, then piston speeds at 12,000 rpm will be similar to a GT3 at just over 6,000 rpm.  But, they will likely go for a bit less bore and a bit more stroke for better driveability (but entirely likely that its pistons will be moving at average speeds slower than a GT3's).


    --

     

    That is very interesting. Thank you. I'm even more impressed with the GT3 hearing that. Specially considering the reliability of the things. 

    Gordon is really hitting the marketing side well on this one. He is on a podcast, released on the same day, talking about F1, fan car etc. He mentions that the fan on the F1 [Brabham] used more than 50% of its capacity for cooling, as per regulations. 

    https://open.spotify.com/episode/6nLVMWuVwPmSdo0W8LuuBl

     


    Re: Gordon Murray - T.50

    Valkyrie is too extreme for road use.

    Amg project one will be heavy and they will have tough time to really adapt the formula one engine to get it smooth enough.

    T50 is the perfect compromise.

    A REAL driver car.

     

     


    Re: Gordon Murray - T.50

    Ramin:  That is very interesting. Thank you. I'm even more impressed with the GT3 hearing that. Specially considering the reliability of the things

    https://open.spotify.com/episode/6nLVMWuVwPmSdo0W8LuuBl

    Yeah, I am super impressed with how extreme the GT3 4.0L motor is also (comparable piston speeds to a 19,000 rpm F1 engine but with a 50,000 mile warranty - enough for 100 Indy 500 races).  However, I think it's important for people to realize how close to the limit we already are with a NA Flat-6 motor.  The only way for lots more power on pump fuel is with even higher revs.  And this simply is not practical to go much higher. 

    If someone thinks we are going to see 75hp more without turbos or electrification, this simply is not possible with the current technology.  4.0L is not the limiting factor (as this T50 proves, 650hp is possible with NA 4.0L).  It's only 6 cylinders that is the problem.  That's why the Flat-6 needs to become a Flat-8 (at minimum) to keep raising NA power.  If Porsche has already decided to add electricity or turbos, then they can continue with a Flat-6 for the foreseeable future.


    --

     

    18 GT3 Manual, 73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 16 Cayman GT4, 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550, 79 635CSi

     


    Re: Gordon Murray - T.50

    Grant:
    Ramin:  That is very interesting. Thank you. I'm even more impressed with the GT3 hearing that. Specially considering the reliability of the things

    https://open.spotify.com/episode/6nLVMWuVwPmSdo0W8LuuBl

    Yeah, I am super impressed with how extreme the GT3 4.0L motor is also (comparable piston speeds to a 19,000 rpm F1 engine but with a 50,000 mile warranty - enough for 100 Indy 500 races).  However, I think it's important for people to realize how close to the limit we already are with a NA Flat-6 motor.  The only way for lots more power on pump fuel is with even higher revs.  And this simply is not practical to go much higher. 

    If someone thinks we are going to see 75hp more without turbos or electrification, this simply is not possible with the current technology.  4.0L is not the limiting factor (as this T50 proves, 650hp is possible with NA 4.0L).  It's only 6 cylinders that is the problem.  That's why the Flat-6 needs to become a Flat-8 (at minimum) to keep raising NA power.  If Porsche has already decided to add electricity or turbos, then they can continue with a Flat-6 for the foreseeable future.


    --

     

    18 GT3 Manual, 73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 16 Cayman GT4, 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550, 79 635CSi

     

    A flat eight introduces packaging issues.  However, a hybrid configuration similar to that employed on the new Ferrari SF90 Stradale offers a very workable solution to increase horsepower and little modifications in packaging; the new gearbox casing is designed to accommodate an electric machine too.  The new Ferrari is using electric machines developed by UK-based Yasa and they are axial flux designs meaning that they are compact and powerful.  Something similar could readily be added to the GTx family.


    Re: Gordon Murray - T.50

    Grant:
    Ramin:  That is very interesting. Thank you. I'm even more impressed with the GT3 hearing that. Specially considering the reliability of the things

    https://open.spotify.com/episode/6nLVMWuVwPmSdo0W8LuuBl

    Yeah, I am super impressed with how extreme the GT3 4.0L motor is also (comparable piston speeds to a 19,000 rpm F1 engine but with a 50,000 mile warranty - enough for 100 Indy 500 races).  However, I think it's important for people to realize how close to the limit we already are with a NA Flat-6 motor.  The only way for lots more power on pump fuel is with even higher revs.  And this simply is not practical to go much higher. 

    If someone thinks we are going to see 75hp more without turbos or electrification, this simply is not possible with the current technology.  4.0L is not the limiting factor (as this T50 proves, 650hp is possible with NA 4.0L).  It's only 6 cylinders that is the problem.  That's why the Flat-6 needs to become a Flat-8 (at minimum) to keep raising NA power.  If Porsche has already decided to add electricity or turbos, then they can continue with a Flat-6 for the foreseeable future.

    This was a great 8-cylinder Porsche motorsport (V8) engine...

    1559852191447image.jpeg

    ...but how about a flat-12 engine? Smiley

    1559851332874image.jpeg

     

    ...I wonder if Porsche engineers have tried bolting together a couple of 4.0 litre 500bhp GT3/RS flat-six engines?  1552170150971image.gif


    Re: Gordon Murray - T.50

    Is that V8 the one that Ruf was putting in the back of their version of the GT3?  I don't think it ever passed the regulatory testing...

    Flat-12 would be amazing, but not behind the rear wheels...


    --

    18 GT3 Manual, 73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 16 Cayman GT4, 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550, 79 635CSi


    Re: Gordon Murray - T.50

    Of course the better solution to adding more power with more cylinders is to reduce weight instead (Gordon Murray is a smart-ass and decided to do both indecision)


    --

    18 GT3 Manual, 73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 16 Cayman GT4, 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550, 79 635CSi


    Re: Gordon Murray - T.50

    Grant:

    Is that V8 the one that Ruf was putting in the back of their version of the GT3?  I don't think it ever passed the regulatory testing...

    Flat-12 would be amazing, but not behind the rear wheels...

    It's the 3.4-litre 503hp 11,000rpm naturally-aspirated V8 motorsport engine from the Porsche RS Spyder...

    - 2008 PRESS RELEASE -

    Porsche RS Spyder: Direct Fuel Injection lowers consumption and increases performance

    1559855928068image.jpeg

    Stuttgart. After the road-going Porsche Cayenne and 911, now the sports prototype RS Spyder profits from direct fuel injection technology (DFI). The new engine, with which Porsche underlines its role as technology leader in energy efficiency, celebrated its race premiere with a victory in the American Le Mans Series: On the demanding Mid-Ohio Sports Car Course, Timo Bernhard (Germany) and Romain Dumas (France) won the LMP2 class.

    The power output of the successful 2006 and 2007 championship winning Porsche, which has so far claimed victory from four of the six races run in this year's ALMS, increased with the new engine from 476 to 503 hp (370 kW) at 10,000 revs per minute. Maximum torque rose from 370 Nm at 7,500 revs to 385 Nm at 8,500 revs.

    The most compelling feature of the DFI version of the successful Porsche 3.4-litre V8 motor is its improved energy efficiency – an important element in endurance racing. Despite an improved power output, fuel consumption was significantly reduced. 

    "After reaching a very high level with the previous engine we raced, we had to put considerable efforts into the development of the direct fuel injection unit in order to significantly improve performance and efficiency," says Thomas Laudenbach, Head of Motorsport Development/Power Train. "In order to achieve revs of up to 11,000 with DFI technology it meant stepping into totally new territory." 

    During the design and development of the engine, synergies of standard areas and motorsport departments were utilised to a large extent. "Right from the beginning there was a lively exchange," reminisces Thomas Laudenbach. "We had already recognised the advantages of this technology at the start of the RS Spyder project and adapted them to the very special requirements of motorsport, always in close consultation with our colleagues in the standard development department. The methods and insights we obtained from our co-operation are of considerable value for future development projects involving DFI technology." Normally an increased engine output is in conjunction with a rise in fuel consumption. This is not the case here. Thomas Laudenbach: "Thanks to the substantial increase of energy efficiency there's no rise in the absolute fuel consumption despite the significant hike in performance. On the contrary – we're even a bit lower."

    Another advantage of the new DFI engine: At partial load – for example during the many caution phases of long distance races - the engine can be run extremely lean. This further reduces fuel consumption and was not possible with the intake manifold fuel injection which was raced previously. Moreover, new options open up for the controlling of highly dynamic processes like, for example, gear shifting at full throttle. Such options were not fully utilised before.

    After the successful premiere in Mid-Ohio, the new DFI motor will power the two Penske Racing RS Spyder cars at the next round in Elkhart Lake (9 August). With this, Porsche intends to strengthen its top position in the American Le Mans Series. "Competition in the LMP2 class is at an extremely high level and it gets tougher race by race," says Hartmut Kristen, Head of Motorsport at Porsche. "Therefore now is exactly the right time to race the new engine."

    1559856328636image.jpeg

    Link:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a_Fze5Gndeo

    ...flat-12 would be in the mid-engined Porsche 960 Coupe RS! Smiley


    Re: Gordon Murray - T.50

    Nice!  This was Ruf's (lighter than Flat-6 with 550hp):

    https://www.roadandtrack.com/car-culture/a21635355/ruf-rgt-8-exhaust-sound-video/

    https://www.motor1.com/news/20483/ruf-rgt-8-revealed-with-v8-engine-transplant/

     


    --

     

    18 GT3 Manual, 73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 16 Cayman GT4, 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550, 79 635CSi

     


    Re: Gordon Murray - T.50

    Grant:
    crayphile:
    Porker:

    But who is supposed to build it? Under what brand? I'm really happy to hear of this release, but a bit sceptical of its feasibility to be honest.

    Yes, how long will that engine last at over 12K revs?

    I’m not sure it has to be quite the grenade it may seem.  Consider that it has less displacement than a GT3, but has twice the cylinders.  So, the average piston speeds and inertia are far lower than you would expect with those sorts of revs (much lighter pistons that move a much shorter distance per rev).  For example, when F1 cars had 2.4L NA V8 engines they revved over 20,000 rpm (for a few hours).  

    They had similar displacement per cylinder as this T50 car (300cc vs. 330cc)...

    In fact, with only a stroke of less than 40mm, piston speeds of this F1 engine at 20,000 rpm were similar to the GT3 at its 9,000 rpm redline (81.5mm stroke and 667cc displacement per cylinder).

    https://www.enginelabs.com/news/high-revving-thrills-formula-1-engines-at-20000-rpm/

    And if the T50 has a similar bore x stroke as the V8 F1 engines, then piston speeds at 12,000 rpm will be similar to a GT3 at just over 6,000 rpm.  But, they will likely go for a bit less bore and a bit more stroke for better driveability (but entirely likely that its pistons will be moving at average speeds slower than a GT3's).


    --

     

    18 GT3 Manual, 73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 16 Cayman GT4, 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550, 79 635CSi

     

    Grant, after reading your above post, I realized how little I know about engines.Smiley I got dizzy reading your explanation.Smiley


    --

    Failing to prepare is preparing to fail.


    Re: Gordon Murray - T.50

    nberry:
    Grant:
    crayphile:
    Porker:

    But who is supposed to build it? Under what brand? I'm really happy to hear of this release, but a bit sceptical of its feasibility to be honest.

    Yes, how long will that engine last at over 12K revs?

    I’m not sure it has to be quite the grenade it may seem.  Consider that it has less displacement than a GT3, but has twice the cylinders.  So, the average piston speeds and inertia are far lower than you would expect with those sorts of revs (much lighter pistons that move a much shorter distance per rev).  For example, when F1 cars had 2.4L NA V8 engines they revved over 20,000 rpm (for a few hours).  

    They had similar displacement per cylinder as this T50 car (300cc vs. 330cc)...

    In fact, with only a stroke of less than 40mm, piston speeds of this F1 engine at 20,000 rpm were similar to the GT3 at its 9,000 rpm redline (81.5mm stroke and 667cc displacement per cylinder).

    https://www.enginelabs.com/news/high-revving-thrills-formula-1-engines-at-20000-rpm/

    And if the T50 has a similar bore x stroke as the V8 F1 engines, then piston speeds at 12,000 rpm will be similar to a GT3 at just over 6,000 rpm.  But, they will likely go for a bit less bore and a bit more stroke for better driveability (but entirely likely that its pistons will be moving at average speeds slower than a GT3's).


    --

     

    18 GT3 Manual, 73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 16 Cayman GT4, 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550, 79 635CSi

     

    Grant, after reading your above post, I realized how little I know about engines.Smiley I got dizzy reading your explanation.Smiley

    It's actually a simple concept, poorly explained Smiley


    --

    18 GT3 Manual, 73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 16 Cayman GT4, 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550, 79 635CSi


    Re: Gordon Murray - T.50

    Porker:

    If it does happen, I'm certain I want it. That next to a Carrera GT and a tent to sleep in. My life is complete...

     

    Lol Smiley


    Re: Gordon Murray - T.50

    Porker:

    If it does happen, I'm certain I want it. That next to a Carrera GT and a tent to sleep in. My life is complete...

     

    Hmm, for me it will be 550 Spyder, and the 918.

    And the 959

    And the GT1

    And a sit down toilet and hot shower.

    Also take a F550 pickup with a camper and with a long trailer to tow everything.

     


    --

     

     


    Re: Gordon Murray - T.50

    Whoopsy:
    Porker:

    If it does happen, I'm certain I want it. That next to a Carrera GT and a tent to sleep in. My life is complete...

     

    Hmm, for me it will be 550 Spyder, and the 918.

    And the 959

    And the GT1

    And a sit down toilet and hot shower.

    Also take a F550 pickup with a camper and with a long trailer to tow everything.

     

    We can be in the same trailerpark, combined we'd have the perfect garage! Smiley


    --

    1969 Mercedes-Benz 300SEL 6.3  / 2008 Porsche 911 GT3 RS (sold) / 2011 Mercedes-Benz C63 AMG Performance / 2014 BMW-Alpina D3 biturbo Touring / 2018 Porsche 911 GT3 Clubsport


    Re: Gordon Murray - T.50

    I admire Gordon Murray for all his achievements in F1 and for the McLaren F1..

    My all-time favourite F1 car is the Brabham BT52 that won the 1983 drivers title with Nelson Piquet.

    Good luck to Murray with his new project kiss

    Nelson_Piquet_driving_Brabham_BT52_2013_Goodwood_Festival_of_Speed.jpg


    --

     

    "Porsche....and Nothing else matters"

     


    Re: Gordon Murray - T.50

    Porker:
    Whoopsy:
    Porker:

    If it does happen, I'm certain I want it. That next to a Carrera GT and a tent to sleep in. My life is complete...

     

    Hmm, for me it will be 550 Spyder, and the 918.

    And the 959

    And the GT1

    And a sit down toilet and hot shower.

    Also take a F550 pickup with a camper and with a long trailer to tow everything.

     

    We can be in the same trailerpark, combined we'd have the perfect garage! Smiley

     

    haha I know right? 

    Perhaps on the lawn outside of Circuit de la Sarthe Smiley


    --

     

     


    Re: Gordon Murray - T.50

    Some more interesting engine facts:

    A Top Fuel dragster that has a supercharged 8.2L V8 producing over 11,000 HP runs a 1000' in 3.66 seconds with a top speed of 334MPH.....the engine turns a little over 500 total engine revolutions for the run....and then they rebuild the engine!!


    Re: Gordon Murray - T.50

    Cause that top fuel engine is a ticking time bomb! 

     


    --

     

     


    Re: Gordon Murray - T.50

    Now for more engine facts. 

    For the same displacement, a V12 will have more inherit friction loss than a V8, more moving parts and surfaces. One reason way back then F1 went to V10 as a compromise between piston speed vs friction loss. Not to mention weight.

    For NA engines, the only way to get more power to rev higher for a given engine displacement. Going for more cylinders is the only way to get smaller pistons. 

    But at the end of the day I don't get this new Murray car, it doesn't seem plausible and possible.

    100 cars at at least 2 million pounds each, say 2.5mil. That's only 250mil pounds. Not a lot if the car is completely bespoke with nothing shared with anything. 

    The brand new engine is already eating up a giant chunk of that budget. Then there is the bespoke carbon fibre monocoque.

    One thing I think I can bet on is that if the car becomes reality, it will only be for Europe and RoW only.

     


    --

     

     


     
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