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    Re: Nürburgring - Tesla vs. Taycan

    schmoell:

    what's next, comparing Tesla fan boys with the Ku Klux Clan ? Keep it cool, it's only about cars and if these people  drive you nuts, just stop listening. There are way more serious things to get upset about

     

    Hmm, now that Porsche got their ordering system sorted, there aren't anymore cars with missing stitchings......................


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    Re: Nürburgring - Tesla vs. Taycan

    After weeks of no further news: Tesla has officially screwed up the full 100%.

    But what should one expect if they try to race a middle class car Smiley They should focus on what they are - they should build lower priced cars for the those who cannot/are not willing to spend higher sums.


    Re: Nürburgring - Tesla vs. Taycan

    Tesla continued some testing in the silence but now left NBR for the season. They will probably continue to surprise next year. 7:13 unofficial with these prototypes is not that shabby... The experts in here will of course claim otherwise and trash talk the prototypes as being heavy modified, having stripped interiors and that Tesla is not capable of anything.

    If anything, this shows that they're serious and also learning quite fast. Very impressive I'd say for being a rookie at NBR

    https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-model-s-plaid-nurburgring-new-record/


    Re: Nürburgring - Tesla vs. Taycan

    Leawood911:

    Here is the obvious difference. Tesla fans say nice things about their cars. They don’t bother insulting other cars or their owners. They simply try to communicate the good experiences they have had. On the other hand the other side is the opposite. They complain about all things Tesla - as much as possible. Personal attacks on anyone not sharing their view is not just acceptable but somehow always 100% fact yet purely subjective.  
    Too much like political mentality these days. I shy away from the haters and negative arguments. Hence goodbye again for a while. 
     

    Well said!


    Re: Nürburgring - Tesla vs. Taycan

    MKSGR:

    After weeks of no further news: Tesla has officially screwed up the full 100%.

    But what should one expect if they try to race a middle class car Smiley They should focus on what they are - they should build lower priced cars for the those who cannot/are not willing to spend higher sums.

    what does that even mean?  Screwed up 100%?  Elon is obviously an idiot compared to some folks here. 
    Middle class car  oh the humanity  really running low on insults to compensate for past and future spending rationale  Smiley

    Let me guess. You have not driven a Model 3. Too funny.  To amplify your complete ignorance it is not required to ridicule those who are not able to spend silly money on cars.  But there you go.  Score. 


    Re: Nürburgring - Tesla vs. Taycan

    lukestern:

    Tesla continued some testing in the silence but now left NBR for the season. They will probably continue to surprise next year. 7:13 unofficial with these prototypes is not that shabby... The experts in here will of course claim otherwise and trash talk the prototypes as being heavy modified, having stripped interiors and that Tesla is not capable of anything.

    If anything, this shows that they're serious and also learning quite fast. Very impressive I'd say for being a rookie at NBR

    https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-model-s-plaid-nurburgring-new-record/

    Look at the last prototype they used:

    https://www.roadandtrack.com/new-cars/a29566208/teslas-plaid-nurburgring-prototype-spy-shots/

    Even with this (which obviously has nothing to do with the cars they sell to customers) they could not achieve the intended result. The lap time you mention was made up by them for marketing reason: There was not a single lap timed accurately. They just "estimated" some numbers.

    I see your point: it is important in live to try things. But with Tesla their idea was more to just create a marketing hype. Creating a lot of noise with nothing, basically. Now they failed completely, even with a prototype on slicks, with a new motor, new suspension, a giant rear wing. This is an embarrassing result for them, sorry to say Smiley


    Re: Nürburgring - Tesla vs. Taycan

    Leawood911:
    MKSGR:

    After weeks of no further news: Tesla has officially screwed up the full 100%.

    But what should one expect if they try to race a middle class car Smiley They should focus on what they are - they should build lower priced cars for the those who cannot/are not willing to spend higher sums.

    what does that even mean?  Screwed up 100%?  Elon is obviously an idiot compared to some folks here. 
    Middle class car  oh the humanity  really running low on insults to compensate for past and future spending rationale  Smiley

    Let me guess. You have not driven a Model 3. Too funny.  To amplify your complete ignorance it is not required to ridicule those who are not able to spend silly money on cars.  But there you go.  Score. 

    We seem to have a different background in/perception of cars: When you enter a Model S you instantly see it is a middle class car, quite cheap interior. They save money where they can. Compare the whole look and feel to a Taycan or Panamera or S Class. These cars are in an entirely different class. That is no problem but should be kept in mind discussing these cars Smiley

     


    Re: Nürburgring - Tesla vs. Taycan

    I am not a fan of Tesla and certainly not a fan of the Taycan. I sat in the Taycan this weekend and was really disappointed. There is no space in the car, neither in the front nor in the back (maybe the Taycan Sport Turismo will fix this problem at least partly). For a base price of 200k (turbo), they do not even offer a leather interior. Of couse, the car is more advanced technically than a Tesla but everything else would be the biggest shame for Porsche! I would never consider buying a Taycan or a Tesla (current models obviously).

    Oh and yes, I drove a Tesla.


    Re: Nürburgring - Tesla vs. Taycan

    It seems that the Tesla Model 3 is becoming popular with taxi drivers on the airport run, so I wouldn’t be surprised if cabbies develop a predilection for the new cadre of EVs to replace the traditional Toyota Prius hybrid...

    20E3ED76-11E2-45B6-8420-6EA91CE753AE.jpeg

    ...who knows, maybe Tesla will finally prove their track reliability by running a fleet of ‘Ring taxis? Smiley


    Re: Nürburgring - Tesla vs. Taycan

    Porsche-Panamera-Projekt-Lion--articleGalleryOverlay-27e45d06-1637406.jpgErlkoenig-Porsche-Panamera-Turbo-820-PS-articleGalleryOverlay-d8253eaf-1620128.jpg

    Looks like the next Panamera will have a racing cage. Or could it be, that Porsche is testing with a car which never will go like this in production?


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    AM


    Re: Nürburgring - Tesla vs. Taycan

    ALDO:

    Porsche-Panamera-Projekt-Lion--articleGalleryOverlay-27e45d06-1637406.jpgErlkoenig-Porsche-Panamera-Turbo-820-PS-articleGalleryOverlay-d8253eaf-1620128.jpg

    Looks like the next Panamera will have a racing cage. Or could it be, that Porsche is testing with a car which never will go like this in production?

    ...looks like Porsche has a new ‘Ring taxi! Smiley


    Re: Nürburgring - Tesla vs. Taycan

    ALDO:

    Porsche-Panamera-Projekt-Lion--articleGalleryOverlay-27e45d06-1637406.jpgErlkoenig-Porsche-Panamera-Turbo-820-PS-articleGalleryOverlay-d8253eaf-1620128.jpg

    Looks like the next Panamera will have a racing cage. Or could it be, that Porsche is testing with a car which never will go like this in production?

    That doesn't increase performance, does it... Just safety measures.


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    1969 Mercedes-Benz 300SEL 6.3  / 2008 Porsche 911 GT3 RS (sold) / 2011 Mercedes-Benz C63 AMG Performance / 2014 BMW-Alpina D3 biturbo Touring / 2018 Porsche 911 GT3 Clubsport


    Re: Nürburgring - Tesla vs. Taycan

    Porsche Taycan Sport Turismo in testing...

    ...looking forward to Top Gear testing the Porsche Taycan Sport Turismo against the Tesla Model Y... Smiley


    Re: Nürburgring - Tesla vs. Taycan

    Cage makes the car heavier... But safer...


    Re: Nürburgring - Tesla vs. Taycan

    1572943760797Porsche-Panamera-Projekt-Lion--articleGalleryOverlay-27e45d06-1637406.jpg
    1572943760807Erlkoenig-Porsche-Panamera-Turbo-820-PS-articleGalleryOverlay-d8253eaf-1620128.jpg


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    AM


    Re: Nürburgring - Tesla vs. Taycan

    I'd also like to sit in a bucket seat if I have to pound around the Nordschleife all day. The driver's seat is even a full-on racing bucket for the same reason I guess.

    But ok, even if this is a quicker Panamera that they're testing. The point is, it isn't used (yet) to set a laptime to boast with, and probably it's a model that is being prepared for production. 

    I can't imagine a Tesla S on Cup 2 R's will make it into production?


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    1969 Mercedes-Benz 300SEL 6.3  / 2008 Porsche 911 GT3 RS (sold) / 2011 Mercedes-Benz C63 AMG Performance / 2014 BMW-Alpina D3 biturbo Touring / 2018 Porsche 911 GT3 Clubsport


    Re: Nürburgring - Tesla vs. Taycan

    Porker:

    I see your point, but how/why on earth should a normal Tesla driver speak out against a Tesla-fanatic? A normal person just drives his Tesla and gets on with his life. I don't think they'd bother to reach out to the world to state they're not a fanatic and they do not support extremism. SmileySmiley


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    1969 Mercedes-Benz 300SEL 6.3  / 2008 Porsche 911 GT3 RS (sold) / 2011 Mercedes-Benz C63 AMG Performance / 2014 BMW-Alpina D3 biturbo Touring / 2018 Porsche 911 GT3 Clubsport

     

    The problem is that most Tesla drivers, of course not all of them but many? (all I have talked to and they easily make a dozen) are very proud of their choice, they really think that they are pioneers, another reason why they often accept the quality issues without any major outcry. So in a way, almost all Tesla drivers are fanatics because they seem to think they are on some sort of a mission. I'm not saying they feel like people saving the environment (I actually think that many Tesla owners couldn't care less about the environment) but like people who support the "re-invention" of cars and mobility.

    Tesla drivers remind me a little bit of that V8 US cars crowd I met during my GT500 ownership. Very nice people, very aware of other cars but also very fanatic about their own cars. 


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    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Lamborghini Huracan Performante (2019), Mercedes E63 S AMG Edition 1 (2018), Mercedes C63 S AMG Cab (2019), Range Rover Evoque Si4 Black Edition (2019)


    Re: Nürburgring - Tesla vs. Taycan

    RC:
     

    Tesla drivers remind me a little bit of that V8 US cars crowd I met during my GT500 ownership. Very nice people, very aware of other cars but also very fanatic about their own cars. 

    I also had to think of the Nissan GTR discussions a lot, if you remember Smiley


    Re: Nürburgring - Tesla vs. Taycan

    Guys. I get it totally. They really are good cars. Why do I need to lie or say nothing. Just passing on information. I still love my turbo.  This has nothing to do with ev or environment crap. Just awesome fun. Silent, quick and not too expensive. 
    btw. Accusing Tesla of marketing hype is interesting. Has ANYONE here ever seen a Tesla car commercial?  Their marketing department is YouTube and the owners. Any car company would kill for that. How amazing is that?  Their owners even put up with crap from Tesla haters. Good for them.  I don’t see any Porsche or Audi YouTube fan channels. 
     

    think about it. Be honest with yourself and give it a drive. I would be curious how many return their Tesla’s after seven days - and what the numbers would be for any other car company if they dared. 


    Re: Nürburgring - Tesla vs. Taycan

     

     


    Re: Nürburgring - Tesla vs. Taycan

    Leawood911:

    Guys. I get it totally. They really are good cars. Why do I need to lie or say nothing. Just passing on information. I still love my turbo.  This has nothing to do with ev or environment crap. Just awesome fun. Silent, quick and not too expensive. 
    btw. Accusing Tesla of marketing hype is interesting. Has ANYONE here ever seen a Tesla car commercial?  Their marketing department is YouTube and the owners. Any car company would kill for that. How amazing is that?  Their owners even put up with crap from Tesla haters. Good for them.  I don’t see any Porsche or Audi YouTube fan channels. 
     

    think about it. Be honest with yourself and give it a drive. I would be curious how many return their Tesla’s after seven days - and what the numbers would be for any other car company if they dared. 

     

    I did. It only took me one test drive, ~10 mins, from Tesla for me to decide it's not for me, bought the better e-Tron instead. And saved myself tens of thousands of dollars in the process.

    Literally I cannot stand looking at the cheap interior for more than 5 mins. the giant screen is an eye sore, the rear doors are the most stupid idea there is, worse than the auto close minivan doors, the car has zero body control, I can't adjust the seat to find a comfortable driving position, and for chris sake, the damn thing can't even coast down the road like a normal car, the moment I lift off the throttle the regen braking already kicks in, another stupid idea, why do I have to constantly apply throttle to keep the car moving? Oh and autopilot? I can drive, thank you every much, I don't need no computer to 'help' me drive. Fart mode? I am pushing 50, not 12 years old. 

    Mind you, the body control of th e-Tron is also bad, but it's still better than the Model X. 

     

     


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    Re: Nürburgring - Tesla vs. Taycan

    Now what will be the RT excuse? A German magazine timed the Tesla and it demolished the Taycan time. Guy's you need to get your heart out of the analysis and use your heads.

    No doubt the Taycan Turbo is a terrific car but at an exorbitant price with mediocre performance. Oh but it does have a nice interior.

    tesla-record-time-nurburgring-beats-porsche-taycan-unofficial


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    Assume most people are stupid and hope they surprise you.


    Re: Nürburgring - Tesla vs. Taycan

    High price, sure...but "mediocre performance"?

     


    Re: Nürburgring - Tesla vs. Taycan

    Topspeed:

    High price, sure...but "mediocre performance"?

     

    7:43 Ring time compared to 7:13. Yep, very pedestrian especially at a cost of $200,000. Smiley


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    Assume most people are stupid and hope they surprise you.


    Re: Nürburgring - Tesla vs. Taycan

    nberry:

    Now what will be the RT excuse? A German magazine timed the Tesla and it demolished the Taycan time. Guy's you need to get your heart out of the analysis and use your heads.

    No doubt the Taycan Turbo is a terrific car but at an exorbitant price with mediocre performance. Oh but it does have a nice interior.

    tesla-record-time-nurburgring-beats-porsche-taycan-unofficial

     

    A Rolls Royce Ghost also have a much higher price than a Dodge Charger Hellcat too and the Dodge is faster even.......................

    Will you be using the same argument when comparing the 2?

    And if not, what's the excuse not to? Different segment? Then same can be said of the Taycan vs Model S. They live in different segments of the EV market. 

    I am not even mentioning the fact that the Tesla is not a production car or even close to one with a complete stripped interior and race tires. That part really has no consequences. If Porsche wanted to play that game, they could have fabricated a Panamera body over a 918 chassis, and how would Tesla fans react to that? Crying foul about a 'non-production' parts? It isn't as the 918 stuff are like 5 years old parts. The street goes both ways, the same logic has to apply to both sides. 


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    Re: Nürburgring - Tesla vs. Taycan

    Oh btw Nick, Tesla's time didn't even stand for long...........

     


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    Re: Nürburgring - Tesla vs. Taycan

    nberry:

    Now what will be the RT excuse? A German magazine timed the Tesla and it demolished the Taycan time. Guy's you need to get your heart out of the analysis and use your heads.

    No doubt the Taycan Turbo is a terrific car but at an exorbitant price with mediocre performance. Oh but it does have a nice interior.

    tesla-record-time-nurburgring-beats-porsche-taycan-unofficial

    The quote is from SportAuto and is misused by the source linked in above: SportAuto says that there is no lap time.

    Tesla just claims they (themselves) "hand stopped" something. They had already claimed this some weeks before and you never heard back from it. Tesla consistently lie to people. In this case to mitigate the effect of their failed attempts of achieving a good lap time with their prototype. Truth is: they left without achieving anything they can use. The only hope are rumors they create Smiley


    Re: Nürburgring - Tesla vs. Taycan

    nberry:
    Topspeed:

    High price, sure...but "mediocre performance"?

     

    7:43 Ring time compared to 7:13. Yep, very pedestrian especially at a cost of $200,000. Smiley

    With Tesla you get a car that cannot do a single fast NBR lap or a normal high-speed run on the Autobahn. You get a cheap interior and flawed technology (like the system chips that are dead after 4 years or so). You get an outdated design (but that might be a matter of taste).

    In summary: You get a car that reflects its lower price. 

    The lap time you quote here is not a timed NBR lap but an invention Tesla presented to deviate from their failed attempt of finishing a single record lap with a prototype that includes among others: new motors, new suspension, new aerodynamics, slicks etc. I.e. some car that is totally unrelated to what they sell to their customers.

    Your posts, Nick, are a good example of their ideal audience: people that easily accept Tesla's statements without thinking much. Sorry to say Smiley 


    Re: Nürburgring - Tesla vs. Taycan

    Auto Motor Sport writes that their source has taken the time:

    Nun ist die Testmannschaft des amerikanischen Autobauers unverrichteter Dinge abgereist – allerdings nicht ohne eine Duftmarke zu hinterlassen. Irgendwie ist es ihnen gelungen ein Stück freie Strecke zu ergattern und konnten von unserer Quelle vor Ort handgestoppt zwei Mal 7:13 Minuten in den Asphalt brennen. Damit unterbot der Tesla nochmals seine ebenfalls inoffzielle Zeit von 7:23 Minuten aus den Vorwochen. An Bord des blauen Tesla Model S saß der ausgewiesene Nordschleifen-Kenner und Rennfahrer Thomas Mutsch. Sein Kollege Andreas Simonsen hatte Tage zuvor seinen roten Testwagen im Abschnitt Bergwerk in die Leitplanken gesetzt. Das havarierte Modell und auch der bei dem Crash unverletzt gebliebene Fahrer kamen nach Insider-Infos nicht mehr zum Einsatz.


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    AM


    Re: Nürburgring - Tesla vs. Taycan

    Awesome. You guys are no longer grouping those who’s options you don’t like into marginalized populations. Progress. 
    lf Whoopsy had driven more than 10 minutes he would have noticed that regen  braking can be turned off - why one would want that is a mystery. Also you don’t have to press the gas because with regular use you get into the auto steer and the worlds best cruise control.  Silly not to use them if you don’t want to press on the gas. This is also what I do in the Porsche if I don’t want to hold down the gas. Please let me know if you have a better method I’m not hip to.  The interior reminds me a bit of a b&o stereo. After looking at it, which my ocd loves, all the other cars with their over complicated and fluffy interiors look like whore houses. 
    a couple of things no one mentions - Tesla super charging is free. How free is it for the Porsche?  How expensive are those other chargers you guys like so much because they are not free super  chargers. Does the power from Tesla smell funny?  The you mention you can drive yourself. Like the pdk argument in reverse. Also a handy way to ignore that the Porsche can not drive itself. Kind of a big feature.   So to recap. One charges free and drives itself. Costs half as much and in some tests smokes the Porsche. All you have is worries about not doing a ring lap while Tesla is turning model 3 into robo taxis and yellow cabs. How many Porsche’s would survive as a cab?  
    skiped right over the No commercials part and how the other companies would kill for such satisfaction from customers. Oh well. I guess if your eyes can stomach a clean slate interior, you don’t mind driving yourself all the time and charging cost are no factor then by all means own the Porsche or Audi or whatever. No one wants you to buy what you don’t like. Just pointing out that your conclusion may not make any sense to others (with a budget or a desire to be safer). 
    Finally. Note the expert way the return policy was retracted from. Drive it for 10 minutes and returned it. That’s is the max return for everyone else.  Again I would challenge any other automaker to offer 7 day returns. Think about how amazing that is. To dismiss it is nuts but a good measure of the power of groupthink.  
    keep the rationalization coming.  Very enlightened by it. Certainly not convinced or impressed by the logic. 


     
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