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    Is the 911 Losing Ground?

    I just purchased my beloved Guards Red 2006 997 4S with the GT3 Body kit. I love my car and love how well it drives. However, I have noticed that there are so many cars that car keep up with my baby.

    I purchased the 997 because it's overall appeal and refinement inside and out, however, I also expected a certain level of performance superiority.

    It's kind of funny how all of the magazines have to use "at least" a turbo for 911's to hold their own these days. And it seems like Porsche needs to start pulling out the GT2 to get any respect these days.

    So where does that leave us "normal" 911 owners. It's like we own a model that might as well say DX or LS or "base" behind the name.

    I mean, for $100,000 we shouldn't be struggling to remove the lights of that Infiniti G37 from our rear view.

    Maybe it's time we stood up and asked Porsche for more from the base.

    I believe that this is how the line up should be

    911 400 hp
    911S 450 hp
    GT3 515 hp
    Turbo 550 hp
    GT2 625 hp

    Heck, for $192,000 the GT2 should be at least 625 hp.

    Re: Is the 911 Losing Ground?

    I'd take the chassis over the hp anyday....

    Re: Is the 911 Losing Ground?

    You think G37 is bad, try racing lower class bmw's 3 series or even a 525. Its hard to pull away from a 30k bmw.

    Re: Is the 911 Losing Ground?

    It may be hard to out-accelerate lower end cars, but all you need to do is turn the corner and watch them go away. Straight line speed has never been the forte of the 911.

    Re: Is the 911 Losing Ground?

    Quote:
    Nastinupe1 said:

    I purchased the 997 because it's overall appeal and refinement inside and out, however, I also expected a certain level of performance superiority.





    Expect "performance superiority" in honing your skills while in competition on a track; car's set up, driver's skills, track conditions. There's where you're allowed to expect superiority. How? You find that you outdid yourself compared to last week; you got superior personal results.

    Public streets and back roads? Go ahead and burn it up now and then when you're _alone_. Very superior performance; can scare the cr*p outta you.

    Racing other cars on public roads to decide which car is "better?" Get a Viper (and maybe also an attorney). Maybe even get a mental evaluation by a forensic clinical psychologist.

    OTOH, what I personally learned about the NA 997/S: get the Turbo.




    Enjoy your car! Ignore everything else!

    Re: Is the 911 Losing Ground?

    First off, you knew what you were getting going in, the numbers don't lie.... Why would you be "expecting" performance superiority when you knowingly bought a 355hp vehicle, in its AWD platform (heavier than 2WD), with a body kit that's going to imply that you've got a stronger GT3 mill lurking under the hood??

    The Carrera S is actually FASTER than its horsepower/weight figures would imply, due to Porsche being rather conservative with its h.p. figures.

    Furthermore, if you can't lose a G37 in quick order, don't blame the car, there's something amiss with the driver. In a straight-shot drag-race I would obliterate a G37 through 3 or 4 gears... A 997S is a 12.6-12.8 1/4 car bone-stock... Anybody who's having a tough time getting a G37 or a $30K 3-series out of their rear-view, in all due respect, is in the wrong gear and shifting at the wrong rpm's and just making a mess out of the potential their 997 possesses...

    O.K., enough harsh talk... Beyond that, let's face it, Porsche is pushing the envelope of what you can do within the iconic 911 envelope, i.e. rear-mounted flat-6...

    You want a 450hp naturally-aspirated S, that meets today's strict environmental standards?? You're wishing for the moon.. The 3.6 and 3.8, as it sits currently with the latest 997.2 evolutions, is a MARVEL.

    You want 450-500hp without turbos?? You need displacement, go see Mercedes, or go buy a 'Vette...

    You can't cram that kind of displacement into the rear of a 997, and get it to fit, or if you gain your displacement through bore and stroke, you won't be able to keep the temperatures down or keep the motor together... Not enough wall thickness...

    I wish my 997S had more beans.... But it's a super car nonetheless, very fast, and I don't bother myself with wondering "what the other guy has"... Don't care, and if I want a 600hp car, I'll buy it, but for reasons different than the reasons I bought my Porsche.

    If brute power is the main motivator, Chevrolet and Mercedes is building your dream car. If budget/price is a motivator, then it's the Bow Tie for you exclusively... That's where Chevy has found its stock and trade... (and done a damn fine job with it..).

    But Porsche is about more than winning a drag race, alot more... I collect American muscle cars, I'm a old-school tire-frying torque-addict....

    But I LOVE my 997S for all its own merits. I don't compare it to others, I enjoy it for what the others can't touch...

    Re: Is the 911 Losing Ground?

    Couldn't have said it better myself 69bossnine

    Re: Is the 911 Losing Ground?

    Waauw! Couldn't have said it better

    Re: Is the 911 Losing Ground?

    There's more to cars than just HP figures and how fast a car goes in a straight line.

    Re: Is the 911 Losing Ground?

    Quote:
    69bossnine said:
    I wish my 997S had more beans.... But it's a super car nonetheless, very fast, and I don't bother myself with wondering "what the other guy has"... Don't care, and if I want a 600hp car, I'll buy it, but for reasons different than the reasons I bought my Porsche. [...]

    But Porsche is about more than winning a drag race, alot more... I collect American muscle cars, I'm a old-school tire-frying torque-addict...



    I understand your thinking but I have to disagree. Porsche used to compensate their shortcomings, namely power output and weight distribution, by thoughtful execution of their resources. After all, the 356 and later on the 911 were able to compete with much more powerful cars which almost always had more weight and size to carry around. A lot of people contemplated that the options and developments Porsche currently presents on the Mark II Carreras should have been announced with the 997's initial arrival already. The advantage over other brands does not have to occur by superior engine output but clever execution.

    It is somewhat interesting to see that it is primarily those Porsche owners in general who relate their car to other brands based on performance and I have to admit that I can fully understand this. I would not have the same feeling in a Ferrari, a Lamborghini Murcielago or a Corvette C6.

    Re: Is the 911 Losing Ground?

    Quote:
    69bossnine said:
    First off, you knew what you were getting going in, the numbers don't lie.... Why would you be "expecting" performance superiority when you knowingly bought a 355hp vehicle, in its AWD platform (heavier than 2WD), with a body kit that's going to imply that you've got a stronger GT3 mill lurking under the hood??

    The Carrera S is actually FASTER than its horsepower/weight figures would imply, due to Porsche being rather conservative with its h.p. figures.

    Furthermore, if you can't lose a G37 in quick order, don't blame the car, there's something amiss with the driver. In a straight-shot drag-race I would obliterate a G37 through 3 or 4 gears... A 997S is a 12.6-12.8 1/4 car bone-stock... Anybody who's having a tough time getting a G37 or a $30K 3-series out of their rear-view, in all due respect, is in the wrong gear and shifting at the wrong rpm's and just making a mess out of the potential their 997 possesses...

    O.K., enough harsh talk... Beyond that, let's face it, Porsche is pushing the envelope of what you can do within the iconic 911 envelope, i.e. rear-mounted flat-6...

    You want a 450hp naturally-aspirated S, that meets today's strict environmental standards?? You're wishing for the moon.. The 3.6 and 3.8, as it sits currently with the latest 997.2 evolutions, is a MARVEL.

    You want 450-500hp without turbos?? You need displacement, go see Mercedes, or go buy a 'Vette...

    You can't cram that kind of displacement into the rear of a 997, and get it to fit, or if you gain your displacement through bore and stroke, you won't be able to keep the temperatures down or keep the motor together... Not enough wall thickness...

    I wish my 997S had more beans.... But it's a super car nonetheless, very fast, and I don't bother myself with wondering "what the other guy has"... Don't care, and if I want a 600hp car, I'll buy it, but for reasons different than the reasons I bought my Porsche.

    If brute power is the main motivator, Chevrolet and Mercedes is building your dream car. If budget/price is a motivator, then it's the Bow Tie for you exclusively... That's where Chevy has found its stock and trade... (and done a damn fine job with it..).

    But Porsche is about more than winning a drag race, alot more... I collect American muscle cars, I'm a old-school tire-frying torque-addict....

    But I LOVE my 997S for all its own merits. I don't compare it to others, I enjoy it for what the others can't touch...



    Well said. I agree- Porsche is pushing the envelope with a basic design that is 30 years old. Rear mounted flat 6 in a car with over 60% of its weight on the rear wheels? There will be cars that handle better. Purists would kill me for saying this, but sometimes I wish the 911 was a mid engine car. I could do without the 2 "passenger" seats, or a convertible top. Of course then there would be no need for the cayman!

    Re: Is the 911 Losing Ground?

    Couldn't agree with you more!!

    Re: Is the 911 Losing Ground?

    Yes,the 911(in all it's variants)is definately loosing ground or alternatively the competition has cought up and passed the 911,see audi R8,Gallardo,Gtr,etc
    whereas 8-10 years ago there was rarely a worthy rival to be found in that market segment(specially for the more "special" 911's)that has significantly changed by now,and that's a good thing as long as Porsche adapt accordingly and i don't mean by creating Cayennes and Panameras,that's exactly what brought them to situation we are discussing here - make the 911 the sports car it used to be

    Re: Is the 911 Losing Ground?

    Quote:
    911freak said:
    Purists would kill me for saying this, but sometimes I wish the 911 was a mid engine car. I could do without the 2 "passenger" seats, or a convertible top. Of course then there would be no need for the cayman!



    I think that's the wrong way round.If you can do without the rear pasenger seats, and want the precision of a mid engine car then surely it's the 911 that's redundant, not the Cayman.

    Seriously though, the easiest way for Porsche to regain pole position in sports cars is stop fighting the inevitable for sake of tradition, base the 997 replacement on an upgraded Cayman, slot the 911 engine range into it and voila, a winning formula again. The ultimate sports car has to be mid engined, after all, the Carrera GT wasn't rear engined, was it?

    Re: Is the 911 Losing Ground?

    Quote:
    dreamcar said:
    Quote:
    911freak said:
    Purists would kill me for saying this, but sometimes I wish the 911 was a mid engine car. I could do without the 2 "passenger" seats, or a convertible top. Of course then there would be no need for the cayman!



    I think that's the wrong way round.If you can do without the rear pasenger seats, and want the precision of a mid engine car then surely it's the 911 that's redundant, not the Cayman.

    Seriously though, the easiest way for Porsche to regain pole position in sports cars is stop fighting the inevitable for sake of tradition, base the 997 replacement on an upgraded Cayman, slot the 911 engine range into it and voila, a winning formula again. The ultimate sports car has to be mid engined, after all, the Carrera GT wasn't rear engined, was it?



    Sorry, but what's wrong with the 911?

    I doubt if any of the owners would reach the on the limit levels to differentiate significantly between the rear and mid-engined chassis. There are differences of course in handling characteristics but very few would reach the level to find the rear engined deficient.

    Porsche produces something unique so why go the Italian way (or Audi R8) and produce something ultra wide and low and impractical. Moreover, IMO the 911 blends perfectly with the present day traffic conditions with good visibility, ease of parking and urban manouvering, and a level of incospicuousness that suits people who don't want to make a statement about themselves everytime they sit in the car or be loud. It suits enthusiasts who enjoy their cars for themselves and not for others.

    The perfect car doesn't exist with all the positive attributes that one might wish for (like design, performance, practicality, economy and ease of maintenance and reliability) all present in the highest degree. So it is matter of swings and roundabouts. In this context why join the many when you can produce and market something different.

    Additionally, the coming 320HP DI Cayman with PDK will be more than enough for mid-engined/two seater afficionadoes and as fast as anyone would realistically wish in the present environment.

    Re: Is the 911 Losing Ground?

    Despite how disillusioned I have become with Porsche lately...

    I have to agree that from a marketing as well as end user perspective, the 911 is perfect. It dominates the market for a 60-120k high end luxury sports car.

    The only problem is that it will never be considered an exotic due to Porsche putting it's logo on trucks and sedans. And let's face it, it is ubiquitous.

    There are plenty of cheaper, more powerful cars out there, Vette Z06/Nissan GT3/etc... but the 911 continues to be a better choice for someone who likes to think they have "class" (I hate that word).

    In the end, the real problem is - when selecting a sportscar in the 911's price range, the choice is too obvious to choose anything BUT a 911. That's precisely what makes it uninteresting to me (after owning several).

    The Turbo/GT3/GT2 are gems that will always be raved about, but they've made so many vanilla models (that includes the whole porsche range) that the marque seems very diluted...

    You can't claim to be a thoroughbred breeder if 95% of what you produce is mediocre compared to the very few truly excellent progeny.

    Re: Is the 911 Losing Ground?

    Quote:
    Moogle said:
    Despite how disillusioned I have become with Porsche lately...

    I have to agree that from a marketing as well as end user perspective, the 911 is perfect. It dominates the market for a 60-120k high end luxury sports car.

    The only problem is that it will never be considered an exotic due to Porsche putting it's logo on trucks and sedans. And let's face it, it is ubiquitous.

    There are plenty of cheaper, more powerful cars out there, Vette Z06/Nissan GT3/etc... but the 911 continues to be a better choice for someone who likes to think they have "class" (I hate that word).

    In the end, the real problem is - when selecting a sportscar in the 911's price range, the choice is too obvious to choose anything BUT a 911. That's precisely what makes it uninteresting to me (after owning several).

    The Turbo/GT3/GT2 are gems that will always be raved about, but they've made so many vanilla models (that includes the whole porsche range) that the marque seems very diluted...

    You can't claim to be a thoroughbred breeder if 95% of what you produce is mediocre compared to the very few truly excellent progeny.



    Some valid points above!

    But also consider:

    Most of these ultra "exclusive" "thoroughbred" brands are either dead or constantly in intensive therapy looking for donors or changing hands like hot potatoes.
    More stable brands like Ferrari or a Lamborghini might be more special and for some better performing than a Porsche, but not everybody can afford to buy and especially run and maintain one.
    What's more, their flamboyant style and their middle east or SE Asia playboy image is too vulgar for more "classy" people.

    From time to time a mass producer will come up with a special car like a Supra or an NSX and recently GT-R, R8 but the impact of these cars is limited to a small % of car buyers. Moreover, people like more to talk about these cars(like here on rennteam for example) than spend money on one.

    The Corvette is a good, value for money performance car but totally irrelevant outside North America.

    Re: Is the 911 Losing Ground?

    Quote:
    reginos said:
    Sorry, but what's wrong with the 911?




    Nothing as far as I'm concerned - if I could justify the cost or think of a suitable excuse for buying one that SWMBO would believe I'd order a 997.2 S PDK tomorrow over all the so-called better competition. Many a time I build my ideal 997 on the configurator...

    I was merely suggesting an option for those people who say Porsche are not keeping up with the conmpetition - i.e. slot the 3.8S engine into a hot-rod Cayman version for those that want it, after all it wasn't me that stated that Porsche were falling behind..

    I agree with you the 997 has more than enough performance, having had an all-too-short 2 hour drive in one sadly in the pouring rain I was totaly in awe with the car.

    If I didn't like the understated Porsche way I wouldn't have bought two Boxsters

    Re: Is the 911 Losing Ground?

    Quote:
    dreamcar said:
    Quote:
    reginos said:
    Sorry, but what's wrong with the 911?




    Nothing as far as I'm concerned - if I could justify the cost or think of a suitable excuse for buying one that SWMBO would believe I'd order a 997.2 S PDK tomorrow over all the so-called better competition. Many a time I build my ideal 997 on the configurator...

    I was merely suggesting an option for those people who say Porsche are not keeping up with the conmpetition - i.e. slot the 3.8S engine into a hot-rod Cayman version for those that want it, after all it wasn't me that stated that Porsche were falling behind..

    I agree with you the 997 has more than enough performance, having had an all-too-short 2 hour drive in one sadly in the pouring rain I was totaly in awe with the car.

    If I didn't like the understated Porsche way I wouldn't have bought two Boxsters




    Re: Is the 911 Losing Ground?

    Quote:
    Ferdie said:
    I understand your thinking but I have to disagree. Porsche used to compensate their shortcomings, namely power output and weight distribution, by thoughtful execution of their resources. After all, the 356 and later on the 911 were able to compete with much more powerful cars which almost always had more weight and size to carry around. A lot of people contemplated that the options and developments Porsche currently presents on the Mark II Carreras should have been announced with the 997's initial arrival already. The advantage over other brands does not have to occur by superior engine output but clever execution.

    It is somewhat interesting to see that it is primarily those Porsche owners in general who relate their car to other brands based on performance and I have to admit that I can fully understand this. I would not have the same feeling in a Ferrari, a Lamborghini Murcielago or a Corvette C6.



    We'll have to agree to disagree.... First off, let's stick to road cars, the cars that Porsche has always sold off the showroom floor...

    How do you come up with Porsche somehow losing "thoughtful execution"?? Ferchrisake, it's commonly understood that the 911 is considered a "miracle of engineering" in that the rear-engine layout can STILL COMPETE after 40 years of progress with more textbook-sane platforms..

    My brother-in-law has a '67 911 soft-window Targa, top-notch condition... It's a stone-plug for power (most station wagons of the era would pull away in a straight line), the handling is brisk, up until you...well... I shouldn't have to delve back into the jeckle/hyde days of Porsche handling, and beyond that, the car was rather simplistic and minimalist...

    Alot of Porschephiles wish for a return to that minimalism, to reduce weight, and gain superiority... BUT... That won't fly in today's market, that won't sustain the company... Your wishes would turn Porsche into Lotus in no time flat...

    I think you're looking at things a bit backwards... Porsche has required far more advanced innovation to hold-check against the competition in modern times than they required in the 50's and 60's... The Speedster was no engineering marvel, any more than was a Shelby/AC Cobra.

    Back then, the envelope wasn't even beginning to be pushed... The envelope was flapping mostly-empty... The limits of physics were only beginning to be toyed with, balancing weight, horsepower and airflow...

    Today, anybody can toss out the soundproofing and options and frills and go back to the 60's mentality of performance... But never forget, another factor of weight is RIGIDITY, and todays hefty platforms can out-handle and out-lateral-G the old flexy stuff. Sometimes adding a bit of heft, when it adds strength, ain't a bad idea...

    Anyhow, enough rambling/debating.... I just think there's too much nit-picking here, a little to much romantic nostalgia, when in reality, it wasn't all that "hot" way back when...

    I've driven Speedsters and early 911's.... Fun little go-karts, but.... All cars have come a long way... Porsche continues to astound the competition by keeping up with a rear-engined layout.... A layout Porschephiles have always insisted upon.... And now that they continue to fight that battle, and build the car you've forever loved.... You turn your back on it?

    Weird....

    If it's about the numbers go elsewhere

    I agree if the numbers are paramount the 'vette or 350Z are great options at different price points. But the 911 is not about the numbers alone - there's a whole lot more that the numbers can't measure easily or have no relevance off the track.

    I drive all sorts of cars - some more expensive and some cheaper than the 911 - and despite the 911's faults (noisy tires and suspension harshness on transverse ridges) it still is an amazingly versatile and capable sports car. It's true performance "envelope" is significantly larger than its competitors. Track day warrior - no problem. Grocery getter - certainly, and more than you might expect. Long distance tourer - bring it on.

    If I can scrape the pennies together in a year or so my next car will be another 911.

    Re: Is the 911 Losing Ground?

    MY Lexus ISF is an equal match for my X51 Carrera, and MSRP's way less than half. That's just the way it is. Its not hard to stuff a big motor in a sedan these days. But the ISF is no Porsche. There aren't a lot of cars that in a straight line are going to run away from these HP sedans anymore. You could put a license plate on a real Formula One Ferrari and cruise the highway and some dip will inevitably close on your bumper and try to race. What you choose to do at that point is up to the individual. I drive the Porsche somewhat responsibly, knowing what a great sports car it is and will be for hopefully a long time. The HP sedans really don't affect my driving or thinking.

    Re: Is the 911 Losing Ground?

    Environmental and safety regulations, which are now largely international and not just confined to the US, have resulted in all automobiles becoming larger and heavier. For a car defined by its agility, as per Porsche's own engineers, these increasingly demanding regulations have been met surprisingly well throughout the 911's evolution. Nonetheless parking a long hood early 911 next to a 997 can be quite startling. As other's have stated, stop light drag racing was never a Porsche forte, but perhaps the advent of cheap horsepower has allowed marques further down the food chain to bark at bigger dogs. Indifference and sensible street driving will effectively silence that yapping

    Re: Is the 911 Losing Ground?

    All this is somewhat similar to the situation of a friend of mine. He bought a Noble POS because its on-paper performance figures were formidable for the price. Yet, this POS has not stopped giving him headaches with reliability issues as well as the fact that it's not as fast as he thought. In 4 drag races - which is what he bought the car so that he could brag about speed and put every one of his friends' cars down - against my brother's manual F430, he has been beaten consistently and convincingly.

    I think I got a little off-topic but the bottom line is that there will always be a newer, faster car out there. Even a new 911 will be made outdated by a newer generation one. Get the car you want, the way you want it and forget about everyone else. Who cares? I'm perfectly happy with my '06 X51 Carrera S that I bought new and specced it myself and not thinking about getting a FL car, even if it is way better than mine because mine satisfies all my needs.

    Re: Is the 911 Losing Ground?

    The point is, it used to be one of the best performance cars to own along with the benefits of being and daily driver and it's practicality.

    The difference is that the car is "one" of the best performing cars on the road that you can drive every day and is practical also.

    Add a dose of heritage, sensuous line and gorgeous looks the 911 is "still" one of the best cars to own, even though it's lost it's performance crown at the lower end of the performance spectrum...

    Remember (as i think people forget) it's a Horizontally opposed 6 cylinder engine. Not, a V8, V10, V12 or a W16 with twin turbo (save the TT/GT2 of course) but still only 3.6

    Re: Is the 911 Losing Ground?

    I couldn't agree more - I did not buy this car to drag race, it was not designed for it. I bought it for it's balance, cornering, the experience of driving it, and its aesthetics.

    If a red light race was the measure of what car is the best, I would not have bought the car. It can beat most cars off the line (esp with launch control & pdk) but as has been well pointed out, there are many HP beasts that can beat it - that does not mean that I would prefer to drive them.

    Re: Is the 911 Losing Ground?

    Quote:
    ResB said:
    The point is, it used to be one of the best performance cars to own along with the benefits of being and daily driver and it's practicality.

    The difference is that the car is "one" of the best performing cars on the road that you can drive every day and is practical also.

    Add a dose of heritage, sensuous line and gorgeous looks the 911 is "still" one of the best cars to own, even though it's lost it's performance crown at the lower end of the performance spectrum...



    Well put...

    Let's face it, back in the 50's and 60's, if horsepower and terminal speed was high on your priority list, Porsche was LOW on your priority list. They were ahead of the pack with handling, but severely lacking in horsepower, even when considered in relation to total weight...

    Today, not only is the 911 one of the finest handling sports cars on the road, it can ACTUALLY run fender to fender with a 6.2L Corvette in a drag race!!... That's saying something, it never used to be that way, the Porsche was just a well-built well-executed "handler" back in the day, that got mauled on straightaways.

    Re: Is the 911 Losing Ground?

    Is it me or did we not purchase our cars based upon some level of performance supremacy? Yes the 911 has history and yes its a very cultured capable car. But the question was is the car losing ground? on that basis we have to say yes. Other manufactures exclusively benchmarked their products against the 911. i am not too sure that this is totally true today, although without doubt the 911 still stands out from the crowd. Have the Porsche engineers been sleeping a little or has the company become a little complacent? The one good thing about competition is that it raises standards. Roll on the next generation.

    Re: Is the 911 Losing Ground?

    I don't think it's complacence.

    If anything, other companies building so-called "sports cars" are simply doing a better job of it than they've done in the past... They are catching-up to Porsche based upon their own efforts and merits and investments. They are not catching Porsche simply because Porsche is sleeping at the wheel, not from where I'm looking at it. It's not that Porsche was so far ahead of the competition, it was more a matter of the competition being horrid and complacent for decades.

    Let's say your country dominates gymnastics in the Olympics, decade after decade... The other countries aren't competing, some-in-part-due to your country's hard work and dedication, but also much-in-part-due to those other countries really not putting forth the effort or dedication...

    Now, all of a sudden, some of those historically "average" countries make a conscious decision to really turn up the wick. They benchmark your training, they benchmark your diet, they dissect your entire program... Now, they may decide to do things slightly different, or to prioritize certain events more than others when compared to your strategy, but in all areas, they've decided to match your effort, and bring in more expertise...

    Are you being complacent? Or are they FINALLY deciding to compete? When you were dominant, were you really that much better, or were they that much worse? Now that they ARE competing, and winning some contests, are you going to pull some team of genetically-engineered robo-freaks from the planet Pluto to "regain superiority"? Or are you going to compete fairly, acknowledging that the bar is now set higher for everybody due to efforts outside of your control?

    That's what I see.... Porsche has been building one hell of a machine for quite a long time now... It doesn't go unnoticed, and for certain, if the market demands, other manufacturers will scramble to compete for that market... Took 'em awhile though...

    Don't blame Porsche's engineers, when competitors finally get their acts together...

    Re: Is the 911 Losing Ground?

    You put words in my mouth that I never even considered saying. The 356 and old 911 models were, in comparison with that era's competition, very solid and efficient. As said, their actual performance was far better than how it looked on-paper, furthermore with impressive execution. No doubt, those cars were a handful to handle and incomparable with today's cars, but this applies to about any make or model that you relate to!

    I do not think that Porsche should increase power output to keep up with competition. This would counteract their current ideology. The air-cooled models were surely loved or hated, hard to stay in between. Contrary the new iterations have a much sleeker appearance and are easier to live with on a daily basis. One can choose if this is a good thing or not.

    In the past, there was no doubt about Porsche being one of, if not the particular, superior brands. As one member stated recently, nowadays there are given choices if one is looking for a decent sportscar. Unlike you, I do believe that they still have the potential to produce a car that is ahead of its competitors but this requires money to be invested. Porsche historically charges prices they find reasonable for their cars but now they develop cars appropriate to the markets. I am not even debating if Panamera and Cayenne are reasonable concepts for such a brand but I doubt that several products, e.g. the first-gen PCCB, would have made it on the market in such a state of development back then. This applies to many other manufacturers, Mercedes being one of them. To put an end to this discussion, I do not even want to judge if this is a good or bad intention, just stating that I preffered the old day's thinking.

     
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