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Re: Cayman and the LSD debate
Quote:
GR said:
The big tyres and lower power may alleviate the problem on a standard Cayaman
Yes, it may alleviate one symptom of a car lacking an LSD - wheelspin. However, another huge benefit of a clutch-type LSD is the vastly increased stability brought to braking and turn-in, allowing much deeper braking and trail-braking into a corner without spinning the car.
May 24, 2006 4:43:40 PM
- Porsche-Jeck
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Re: Cayman and the LSD debate
adrift, you've posted on the Boxster-board that you took a ride in the Ruf 3800 S conversion of the Boxster S (987 S) with nearly 400 hp. Based on the assumption that the 987-platform asks for a LSD (even with 100 hp less compared to the Ruf-conversion) this car must have been almost undriveable (save for straightline action) without a LSD 
What was your impression with the tuned car ? (you made no comments on handling aspects in your post on the Boxster-board). What is Ruf's solution to ensure that the 400 hp can be brought onto the tarmac ?
I'm not a track-guy but I use to play wild with my (stock engine) 987 S with 19" wheels and PASM on the backroad twisties. My impression is that the car does not suffer traction problems under most driving conditions except for some very very tight corners (hairneedle turns) if approached with unhealthy speed
I have not driven the Cayman S yet, but as I don't think that the 15 hp makes the difference in tight corners it may be that the coupé's stiffer body plus stiffer suspension (I understand that the Cayman's stock suspension is not 100% identical with the Boxster's suspension) are disadvantegeous under those conditions (as they say: the most "hardest" suspension set-up does not neccessarily translate into the fastest lap-time).
Coming back to your question how to cure the problem, I don't think that "more aggressive springs" would be helpful to solve the problem. It may be just the other way round - but then, I'm only an amateur and not a tech pro (that's why I'm interested to hear how the Ruf-guys have solved the problem).
What was your impression with the tuned car ? (you made no comments on handling aspects in your post on the Boxster-board). What is Ruf's solution to ensure that the 400 hp can be brought onto the tarmac ?
I'm not a track-guy but I use to play wild with my (stock engine) 987 S with 19" wheels and PASM on the backroad twisties. My impression is that the car does not suffer traction problems under most driving conditions except for some very very tight corners (hairneedle turns) if approached with unhealthy speed
I have not driven the Cayman S yet, but as I don't think that the 15 hp makes the difference in tight corners it may be that the coupé's stiffer body plus stiffer suspension (I understand that the Cayman's stock suspension is not 100% identical with the Boxster's suspension) are disadvantegeous under those conditions (as they say: the most "hardest" suspension set-up does not neccessarily translate into the fastest lap-time).
Coming back to your question how to cure the problem, I don't think that "more aggressive springs" would be helpful to solve the problem. It may be just the other way round - but then, I'm only an amateur and not a tech pro (that's why I'm interested to hear how the Ruf-guys have solved the problem).
May 24, 2006 5:25:44 PM
- adrift
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Re: Cayman and the LSD debate
I didn't drive the 3800S, just had a ride. And it was just an acceleration demo; no good roads close at hand. My 3600S has 365HP, but isn't nearly as torquey as the 3800S, but with RUF springs and R-compound rubber on the track, I never suffer wheelspin issues. And on the road, I don't think I have experienced it either (with my PS2s).
May 24, 2006 6:17:29 PM
- Porsche-Jeck
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Re: Cayman and the LSD debate
Very interesting to hear about your positive experiences with the 3600 S. Seems to prove that it is possible to equip Porsche's midengine platform with significant more hp without sacrificing the superb handling (I take it that you're 3600 S is not equipped with LSD, right ?) with the proper suspension and dampers.
May 24, 2006 6:40:29 PM
- adrift
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Re: Cayman and the LSD debate
Oh, the Boxster platform (mine is 986 based) easily handles my engine, and I didn't feel any structural twist when they hammered the 3800 either.
From my experience, I think it is easily capable of handing north of 400 HP. But the Boxster is a very rigid frame to begin with. I have heard a Boxster has more structural rigidity than a 993 coupe (from an ex 993 coupe owner). Don't know if that is true or not, but supposedly HUGE structural improvements went into the 986/996 model lines.
I have enough trust in RUF to believe that if they think something will work, they have verified that it will. I have full confidence the 3800S conversion is well sorted out at this point. I haven't known the Rufs to put their name on a car that didn't run like stink, and do it well.
Quick addition to the LSD issue...as I mentioned, I haven't noticed any wheelspin issues in my 365HP Boxster, nor have I ever heard any complaints from regular S owners. Any thoughts on why this might be, when the Cayman apparently does have issues?
From my experience, I think it is easily capable of handing north of 400 HP. But the Boxster is a very rigid frame to begin with. I have heard a Boxster has more structural rigidity than a 993 coupe (from an ex 993 coupe owner). Don't know if that is true or not, but supposedly HUGE structural improvements went into the 986/996 model lines.
I have enough trust in RUF to believe that if they think something will work, they have verified that it will. I have full confidence the 3800S conversion is well sorted out at this point. I haven't known the Rufs to put their name on a car that didn't run like stink, and do it well.
Quick addition to the LSD issue...as I mentioned, I haven't noticed any wheelspin issues in my 365HP Boxster, nor have I ever heard any complaints from regular S owners. Any thoughts on why this might be, when the Cayman apparently does have issues?
Re: Cayman and the LSD debate
You may be able to tune some of it out with suspension modifications, but they do not come without tradeoffs compared to the stock setup. For example, a stiffer front anti-roll bar will help keep the rear planted, but you induce more understeer.
My feeling is that stickier tires or a more grippy surface, will make the problem worse.
My feeling is that stickier tires or a more grippy surface, will make the problem worse.
Re: Cayman and the LSD debate
Quote:
adrift said:
Quick addition to the LSD issue...as I mentioned, I haven't noticed any wheelspin issues in my 365HP Boxster, nor have I ever heard any complaints from regular S owners. Any thoughts on why this might be, when the Cayman apparently does have issues?
Thats because it's all bolloxs really and neither the Cayman or Boxster really suffer from the lack of a LSD despite the comments by the trolls. Both cars would be a better with a LSD, but it's not really an issue unless your on a track with very tight turns and given the choice I'd have more power or less weight any day instead
Re: Cayman and the LSD debate
Quote:
Grant said:Quote:
toplad said:Thats because it's all bolloxs really and neither the Cayman or Boxster really suffer from the lack of a LSD despite the comments by the trolls.
Either that or those drivers are not pushing the car hard enough
Grant dont get too technical here, you might confuse the less cerebally fortunate.
Re: Cayman and the LSD debate
This thread reminds me of the other Rennteam topics, like the ones that stated the Porsche Cayman wasn't selling very well. The recent Porsche sales figures proved that to be nothing more than internet BS too.
I'm not sure I buy any off this LSD rubbish either, the normal 997 doesn't have an LSD and no one bats an eye, yet because the Cayman doesn't have one it's the end of the world.
Some posters are saying due to better traction of the 911 design it doesn't need one, this isn't really true. The better traction offered by the 911 doesn't make any difference, in tight turns the inside wheel of the 911 will still need to do more turns more than the outside wheel, so instead of the inside wheel spinning the 911 will not take as tighter line, the nose will run wide of the apex, this used to happen in my 996 in tighter turns. The Cayman on the other hand will spin it's inside wheel continue along it's choose path, rather than run wide.
I'm not sure I buy any off this LSD rubbish either, the normal 997 doesn't have an LSD and no one bats an eye, yet because the Cayman doesn't have one it's the end of the world.
Some posters are saying due to better traction of the 911 design it doesn't need one, this isn't really true. The better traction offered by the 911 doesn't make any difference, in tight turns the inside wheel of the 911 will still need to do more turns more than the outside wheel, so instead of the inside wheel spinning the 911 will not take as tighter line, the nose will run wide of the apex, this used to happen in my 996 in tighter turns. The Cayman on the other hand will spin it's inside wheel continue along it's choose path, rather than run wide.
Re: Cayman and the LSD debate
If the 911's traction won't cure it of a need for LSD, then all that means is that it should have one too and should be blasted for not having one as the Cayman as been. The fact is that Porsche have made much ado about the Cayman's focused sporting nature and have simply weasled out of giving us the options for such a focused car as advertised. Not everyone needs an LSD, but some want one and Porsche doesn't give us the choice. The aftermarket may provide that, but I understand that PSM mayproblematize such an item. If we the Porschephile consumers put up with this from Porsche, they will continue to water down their products. We live in a world of 300 hp rally-inspired econoboxes and 500 hp vettes, and for Porsche to compete they've got to wholeheartedly commit to at least one dimension of performance, and leaving out an LSD on a razor-sharp, mid-engined car is nonsense. It's nothing to make excuses about.
Re: Cayman and the LSD debate
Quote:
toplad said:
This thread reminds me of the other Rennteam topics, like the ones that stated the Porsche Cayman wasn't selling very well. The recent Porsche sales figures proved that to be nothing more than internet BS too.
I'm not sure I buy any off this LSD rubbish either, the normal 997 doesn't have an LSD and no one bats an eye, yet because the Cayman doesn't have one it's the end of the world.
I you search the 997 boards, you see that I have complained about no LSD on the 996/997 since 2002.
I think it's a travesty that we can't get the -20mm Sport supension with LSD in the US for the 997, like they have in Europe. I have no specific gripe with the Cayman - my gripe is with Porsche.
However, as much as I'm annoyed at the lack on LSD on the 997, I think the Cayman deserves one even more, since it has less rear-weight bias for traction...
Re: Cayman and the LSD debate
Quote:
Grant said:Quote:
toplad said:
However, as much as I'm annoyed at the lack on LSD on the 997, I think the Cayman deserves one even more, since it has less rear-weight bias for traction...
The things is, the cayman just spins it's inside wheel and stays on your choosen line, the 911 on the other hand forces it's light front end out and runs wide of the corner.
So which needs one more?
I'd say the 911.
Re: Cayman and the LSD debate
Yes, it is all "relative", isn't it? Considering the Cayman S is faster around the Ring (and Top-gear track as well) than a new C6 corvette and it has no LSD and gives up 105 HP.
Sounds terrible! I frankly can't get my Cayman to spin the inside tire on the street and I've been taking some corners that if I tried to match speed in my 350Z I would be upside down in the ditch.
LSD or no, the car goes around corners incredibly well already.
Paul
Sounds terrible! I frankly can't get my Cayman to spin the inside tire on the street and I've been taking some corners that if I tried to match speed in my 350Z I would be upside down in the ditch.
LSD or no, the car goes around corners incredibly well already.
Paul
Re: Cayman and the LSD debate
I agree with Grant and jlr. Porsche should make an LSD available as an option regardless of what indiviual rennteamers think about its "necessity." There's something wrong with the fact that I can order leather covered sunvisors, automatic climate control and Porsche crests in the headrests and center console, but cannot have a factory LSD. Does the car "need" it? It certainly needs it more than any of those fluff options IMO.
mcdelaug
mcdelaug
Re: Cayman and the LSD debate
I have heard from Porsche techs that LSD has been sacrificed on most of the cars because it does not work well with all the stability management / electronic nanny stuff.
Personally, they can keep the nannies and give me LSD, for my 2 cents. Plus, I bet if they tried hard enough, they could get it to work. It just isn't on the bean counter's priority list. As someone said, most Porsche owners don't even know what a LSD is.
Personally, they can keep the nannies and give me LSD, for my 2 cents. Plus, I bet if they tried hard enough, they could get it to work. It just isn't on the bean counter's priority list. As someone said, most Porsche owners don't even know what a LSD is.
Jun 1, 2006 2:31:15 PM
- Grant
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