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    Panamera - first hint regarding price tag

    This is only a rumour, so please take it with a grain of salt:

    1.  apparently Porsche decided to improve the standard options on the Panamera, providing a better value for the money

    2. speaking of money: the rumored  base price tag of the Panamera S is rumored to be around 94000 EUR (incl. 19% tax) in Germany. This is around 16000(!) EUR more than the price tag of the Cayenne S in Germany.

    If true, Porsche takes the Panamera to a pretty ambitious price level in my opinion. In the current economic situation, this could be a mistake. The Panamera is a new product, I don't know if customers are willing to take "risks" in such "troubled times".

    What worries me regarding the Panamera is also the way Porsche "handles" Cayenne marketing. The Cayenne apparently transformed from the "money bringer" and "Porsche saviour" to the "black sheep".

    I was really interested in the Panamera, despite the ugly rear. Now I think I'm going to pass on this car and since Porsche seems to have a love-hate relationship with the Cayenne, I may even change the brand completely.

    A fully equipped Panamera S for over 110000 EUR? No thanks. For this price tag, I can get a fully equipped Audi RS6, including a much better performance and a less attraction catching look. 

    I hope the 94000 EUR price tag is only a rumor but unfortunately "our" rumors tend to become reality. Smiley


    --
    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor 997 Turbo, Cayenne Turbo S, BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S JCW

    Re: Panamera - first hint regarding price tag

    Shouldn't the Panamera handle much better than the RS6? My dealer seems to think it will be closer to a real sports car than a sporty limousine. I think the only thing that can save the Panamera would be an amazing 'Ring' time.

    Re: Panamera - first hint regarding price tag

    neunelf:
    Shouldn't the Panamera handle much better than the RS6? My dealer seems to think it will be closer to a real sports car than a sporty limousine. I think the only thing that can save the Panamera would be an amazing 'Ring' time.

    I agree with RC.  Porsche is just milking the last drips out of their reputation with 911 and people are catching on Smiley.

    In this market I don't see any smart person dropping 100s of thousands of dollars on a car would be very risky.  In particular in Europe that family budget is tighter and in this economical situation you'd create enemies for yourself by buying an expensive car like this.

    The glory times have changed, to give you an example; I have a very good friend from Mexico (my best man Smiley) he was telling me few weeks ago that all rich people in Mexico are dropping their expensive cars (Ferraris and Lambos.....) to save their lives and their family lives.  Kidnapping rich people has increased tremendously in Mexico.

    I understand that Europe and the U.S. have not reached that level yet but the situation is not very rosy.

     

    Also, this morning I noticed the announced the best top 10 cars of 2009 and Porsche was not in any of the ranking Smiley.  There are other brands that offer the same kind of performance, if not better, for much less.  I, myself, used to be a Porsche freak but I've opened up my mind and have realized there are other brands that can satisfy me too.  Mind you, I have nothing against Porsche I still love it and once they come up with a compeling product again I will buy one again but in this economy I doubt it if they can sell cars for that price.

    Of course their target is Russia, China and India but I'm not sure those customers are as willing to spend that kind of money right now Smiley.




            


    --
    Happy Driving

    Re: Panamera - first hint regarding price tag

     

     

     

    Ron (Houston):


    The glory times have changed, to give you an example; I have a very good friend from Mexico (my best man Smiley) he was telling me few weeks ago that all rich people in Mexico are dropping their expensive cars (Ferraris and Lambos.....) to save their lives and their family lives.  Kidnapping rich people has increased tremendously in Mexico.


            


    --
    Happy Driving

            Ciudad de Mexico is from a very very long time the place with the highest kidnapp in the world. Every 2 minutes there is a kidnapp in Mexico. In Europe even in the wast countries it is a very minor thing to start thinking selling your car for not being kidnapped. And I don´t think we are going to reach that situation!

    But it is true that the 94000€ sounds like a lot of money for the Panamera. But RC do you have any rumour about where the V6 Panamera will start from? 


    --
    ALL PORSCHE ARE REAL PORSCHE!!!

    Re: Panamera - first hint regarding price tag

    RC:

    A fully equipped Panamera S for over 110000 EUR? No thanks. For this price tag, I can get a fully equipped Audi RS6, including a much better performance and a less attraction catching look. 

    -- 

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor 997 Turbo, Cayenne Turbo S, BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S JCW

            Interesting info Smiley

     BTW, a fully equipped RS6 is more like 125-130k Euros...


    Re: Panamera - first hint regarding price tag

    RC:

    What worries me regarding the Panamera is also the way Porsche "handles" Cayenne marketing. The Cayenne apparently transformed from the "money bringer" and "Porsche saviour" to the "black sheep".

     Now I think I'm going to pass on this car and since Porsche seems to have a love-hate relationship with the Cayenne, I may even change the brand completely.



            Christian,sorry,can you explain this?why the Cayenne is going to be the black sheep?Smiley


    --
    997 TT, what a car/che'mmmmmaghena!!!

    Re: Panamera - first hint regarding price tag

    Super Darius:
    RC:

    What worries me regarding the Panamera is also the way Porsche "handles" Cayenne marketing. The Cayenne apparently transformed from the "money bringer" and "Porsche saviour" to the "black sheep".

     Now I think I'm going to pass on this car and since Porsche seems to have a love-hate relationship with the Cayenne, I may even change the brand completely.

    Christian,sorry,can you explain this?why the Cayenne is going to be the black sheep?Smiley

    --
    997 TT, what a car/che'mmmmmaghena!!!

    Because nobody wants to buy it any longer? Smiley
    --

    Back again!  Smiley


    Re: Panamera - first hint regarding price tag

    Well... record Cayenne sales last year... That's really amazing!
    --

    Mikla

    997 Turbo


    Re: Panamera - first hint regarding price tag

    I was talking to the local importer on Sunday and he told me to expect "around cayenne prices" for the Panamera.
    --
    It's not where you're going, it's how you get there that counts

    Re: Panamera - first hint regarding price tag

    The car is definitely a bit pricier than expected but you need to understand Porsche's marketing objectives here. I've said it in the past and I've say it again, the Panamera is aimed at the M5, E63 and RS6 crowd i.e people not afraid to drop some extra coin for a car they really want. 94 000 euro is exaclty the same footprint as the pricetag for the Mercedes S500. Bare in mind that the Cayenne is also preposterosly priced, try and spec out a Cayenne Turbo and you shall see what I'm talking about. But people still buy Cayennes' don't they?

    We shouldn't be to critical of the Panamera as all details have yet to be unvieled, it might be greater than the sum of all its parts. Regarding the Cayenne, it will always been the odd love child as it funded the development of the Panamera which is the REAL four doo Porsche. Having enjoyed major success from the Cayenne, Porsche will most likely treat it with respect as it has been a better success that Porsche probably anticipated.

    Recession doesn't mean that you should halt innovation because when you do, the black hole will get deeper. Sure people are more price concious but often it's not about price but more about value. If the Panamera is spacious and comfortable on comparable levels as an S-Class while offering thrills of a sportscar better than an M5 or CLS, then the chances are great that consumers will bite. 

    I think we should fall back and wait for Porsche to lay all the cards on the table since the technical aspects of the cars have yet to be released. Most importantly a review on the car has yet to be conducted.Smiley


    Re: Panamera - first hint regarding price tag

    Mikla:
    Well... record Cayenne sales last year... That's really amazing!
    --

    Mikla

    997 Turbo

    Record sales figures or record production figures??? Smiley

    Don't know what sales figures you're talking about but they can't be from Europe or the US.

    Since these two markets already make more than 50% of the Cayenne market...do the math.

    I know that dealers expect the Panamera to be in the same price range as the Cayenne but there will be huge disappointment if the rumors I mentioned are true.

    I'm not willing to drop 110k EUR for a well equipped Panamera S, this is ridiculous.

    Regarding performance: I doubt that the Panamera S with aprox. 400 HP will be in the same performance league with the Audi RS6 which costs almost the same if we compare real world prices and options. Even the Panamera Turbo with aprox. 500 HP could have trouble to follow the RS6 on the straight line. Rumors indicate a time around 15 seconds from 0-200 kph for the Panamera Turbo. The RS6 is almost 2 seconds faster.

    Track performance? Are you kidding me? I know that Porsche loves to catch buyer attention with track performance capability but honestly, I find it very very pathetic to drive on the track in a limousine/sedan. Unless it is for fun only but I can imagine that some Panamera owners will take this very seriously. Smiley The Panamera Turbo is rumored to do the Nordschleife in around 8 minutes flat, some sources even indicated a second or two under this time.

    If true, the Panamera will very likely be the sportiest limousine/sedan in its class but if you're hoping for a 4-door sportscar, I'm afraid that the Panamera isn't much better than the Cayenne. At around 2 tons, the only things keeping this car on the street are electronic stability/traction systems. Without them, you need to be Walter Röhrl to keep it going fast.
     

     

     

            


    --
    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor 997 Turbo, Cayenne Turbo S, BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S JCW

    Re: Panamera - first hint regarding price tag

    I think Porsche will charge the maximum price that they will be allowed to by the circumstances, provided they can shift their minimum of 20,000 cars p.a.

    Obviously they will not price it at a level that will kill sales but on the other hand this unique car should command a premium over an S class (there are even S class taxis in germany and elsewhere) or an Audi 6 on steroids.


    --
    It's not where you're going, it's how you get there that counts

    Re: Panamera - first hint regarding price tag

    Let's set the record straight whether RC likes it or not.

    Cayenne may be Porsche's "black sheep" BUT it's selling well, Cayenne sales (deliveries to FINAL customers) reached an ALL time HIGH during FY 07/08.

    Porsche_Sales.jpg

    In the first 4 month (Aug-Nov) of Porsche's new fiscal year (08/09), Cayenne sales (to dealers) declined by 8.8% to 12,259 units.

    Regarding Panamera prices:

    Panamera's direct competitors are (according to Porsche): BMW 7 Series, Mercedes S Class, Audi A8, Maserati Quattroporte, .... and still according to Porsche's management: "Panamera should be priced at a premium to its competitors" ...

    Excl. Sales Tax (or VAT):

    BMW 7 Series: Entry (740i 326 hp) € 71,000; Top (750i 407hp) € 88,600

    Mercedes S Class: Entry (S350 272 hp) € 70,400; Top (S 63 AMG 525hp) € 130,400

    Audi A8: Entry (3.2 V6 FSI 260 hp)  € 65,500; Top (6.0 W12 450 hp) € 112,750

    Maserati Quattroporte: Entry (V8 4.2 400hp) € 95,350; Top (V8 4.7 430hp) € 104,850

    I therefore believe:

    Panamera (V6 300hp) should be around € 74-75,000 or around € 85-90,000 (incl sales tax 19%)

    Panamera S (V8 400hp) should be around € 90-95,000 or around € 110,000 (incl. sales tax 19%)

    Panamera TT (V8 500hp) in the € 140-150,000 (incl. sales tax 19%)

    Why would I buy a Panamera?

    Easy answer. For the price of a 911 (€ 85-150,000 incl. sales tax 19%) I get a seriously sporty 4 seater... and it should be a much easier "sell" to my wife and also may be to my kids ...

     


    Re: Panamera - first hint regarding price tag

    Interesting overview, Eric Alain - thanks for sharing Smiley
    You don't have the budget figures for FY 08/09 and 09/10 by any chance ? Smiley

    --
    public roads: Porsche 987 S Seal/Cocoa, toll road Smiley : Porsche 997 GT3 Arctic/Black

    Re: Panamera - first hint regarding price tag

    The last time I looked the vast majority of Cayenne sales were the low priced and underpowered 6 cyl. jokes.

    Re: Panamera - first hint regarding price tag

    racerx:
    The last time I looked the vast majority of Cayenne sales were the low priced and underpowered 6 cyl. jokes.

    Looked at pragmatically, can they really be so much of a joke if they sell well? Smiley

    They are helping to provide the "critical mass" which might be necessary to enable the company to continue developing the sports cars some of us might personally prefer through the current tough market. Smiley


    --
    fritz

    Re: Panamera - first hint regarding price tag

    Fritz, Touareg is the same and better at the same time than 6 cyl. Cayenne.

    6 cyl pushing that weight from a company with motto "There is no substitute", especially when it is no beauty pageant winner (most here agree to that)Smiley

    If the 6 cyl was a lighter and smaller version like an X3 I would agree as it would be more respectable and a great way of getting new blood in the porsche client list w/o selling their souls.

    Finally can the money argument be made even in this tough time when they blew billions on VW for family pride and made billions more on a stock market aberration?


    Re: Panamera - first hint regarding price tag

    For me the answer is different.

    I dont compare it with an Sedan, I compare with the 911. A well spec'ed Carrera S is easily 120.000 €. For this price I could get an Panamera S, which is a sportscar with space for wife, kids and golf bags. Finally a chance to drive a sportscar whenever I want, not only  when I plan to make a Sunday cruise where I don't need space for Family or one of my hobbies. I have to admit that more and more I have to plan this trips as most of time I need space while driving to any activities.

    Out of that view, the Panamera is an real Option for me making the change from the 911 to a spacious sport-limo-car.



    Re: Panamera - first hint regarding price tag

    Lars997:

    For me the answer is different.

    I dont compare it with an Sedan, I compare with the 911. A well spec'ed Carrera S is easily 120.000 €. For this price I could get an Panamera S, which is a sportscar with space for wife, kids and golf bags. Finally a chance to drive a sportscar whenever I want, not only  when I plan to make a Sunday cruise where I don't need space for Family or one of my hobbies. I have to admit that more and more I have to plan this trips as most of time I need space while driving to any activities.

    Out of that view, the Panamera is an real Option for me making the change from the 911 to a spacious sport-limo-car.

     



            Lars,

    Do you reallyy belive that Panamera S is a sportscar with space for four people?Smiley

    Again, any version of Panamera a sportscar?Smiley

    997.2 Carrera S is indeed about 120K € in Germany with nice equipment. BUT, it is a proper sportscar. For 5K € more you can buy Audi R8 4.2 FSI which is again a proper sportscar or Audi RS6 which is NOT a proper sportscar but, a nice sporty limousine...

     

    If Porsche marketing is good enough to made you to belive that Panamera is a sportscar(?!) then they are very, very good indeed...


    Re: Panamera - first hint regarding price tag

    KresoF1:
    Lars997:

    For me the answer is different.

    I dont compare it with an Sedan, I compare with the 911. A well spec'ed Carrera S is easily 120.000 €. For this price I could get an Panamera S, which is a sportscar with space for wife, kids and golf bags. Finally a chance to drive a sportscar whenever I want, not only  when I plan to make a Sunday cruise where I don't need space for Family or one of my hobbies. I have to admit that more and more I have to plan this trips as most of time I need space while driving to any activities.

    Out of that view, the Panamera is an real Option for me making the change from the 911 to a spacious sport-limo-car.



            Lars,

    Do you reallyy belive that Panamera S is a sportscar with space for four people?Smiley

    Again, any version of Panamera a sportscar?Smiley

    997.2 Carrera S is indeed about 120K € in Germany with nice equipment. BUT, it is a proper sportscar. For 5K € more you can buy Audi R8 4.2 FSI which is again a proper sportscar or Audi RS6 which is NOT a proper sportscar but, a nice sporty limousine...

    If Porsche marketing is good enough to made you to belive that Panamera is a sportscar(?!) then they are very, very good indeed...


    I guess it really depends on what he´s looking for in a car, Kreso. If it´s to be used as an Autobahn blaster, then it will certainly be on par with the 911. I don´t think he really assumed that the Panamera would compete with a 911 on twisty roads.


    Re: Panamera - first hint regarding price tag

    racerx:
    The last time I looked the vast majority of Cayenne sales were the low priced and underpowered 6 cyl. jokes.

    Cayenne V6 sales represent around 40-45% of total Cayenne sales worldwide. It's a touch higher in the US with 47% last year ... Therefore the "vast majority" (55-60%) is made of V8 sales ... which are not jokes ....

    Porsche_USA08.jpg
     

            


    Re: Panamera - first hint regarding price tag

    I wish I had budget figures for FY 08/09 and 09/10 .... I have my own forecasts BUT .... I'm not sure there are reliable ....

    Re: Panamera - first hint regarding price tag

    Crash:
    KresoF1:
    Lars997:

    For me the answer is different.

    I dont compare it with an Sedan, I compare with the 911. A well spec'ed Carrera S is easily 120.000 €. For this price I could get an Panamera S, which is a sportscar with space for wife, kids and golf bags. Finally a chance to drive a sportscar whenever I want, not only  when I plan to make a Sunday cruise where I don't need space for Family or one of my hobbies. I have to admit that more and more I have to plan this trips as most of time I need space while driving to any activities.

    Out of that view, the Panamera is an real Option for me making the change from the 911 to a spacious sport-limo-car.



            Lars,

    Do you reallyy belive that Panamera S is a sportscar with space for four people?Smiley

    Again, any version of Panamera a sportscar?Smiley

    997.2 Carrera S is indeed about 120K € in Germany with nice equipment. BUT, it is a proper sportscar. For 5K € more you can buy Audi R8 4.2 FSI which is again a proper sportscar or Audi RS6 which is NOT a proper sportscar but, a nice sporty limousine...

    If Porsche marketing is good enough to made you to belive that Panamera is a sportscar(?!) then they are very, very good indeed...


    I guess it really depends on what he´s looking for in a car, Kreso. If it´s to be used as an Autobahn blaster, then it will certainly be on par with the 911. I don´t think he really assumed that the Panamera would compete with a 911 on twisty roads.

    Yep guys - you are right! I know that the Panamera will never be a car for the race track. But for driving a sporty car on Autobahns and maybe on country roads (where speeding is somehow limited, too), I could guess that the Panamera could do that for me. Still, its a different car than a S-Class or 7 BMW.

     So I do think, there is a place and space for a Panamera in our market. And yes, the more I think about, it might be a solution for me.



    Re: Panamera - first hint regarding price tag

    Crash:
    KresoF1:
    Lars997:

    For me the answer is different.

    I dont compare it with an Sedan, I compare with the 911. A well spec'ed Carrera S is easily 120.000 €. For this price I could get an Panamera S, which is a sportscar with space for wife, kids and golf bags. Finally a chance to drive a sportscar whenever I want, not only  when I plan to make a Sunday cruise where I don't need space for Family or one of my hobbies. I have to admit that more and more I have to plan this trips as most of time I need space while driving to any activities.

    Out of that view, the Panamera is an real Option for me making the change from the 911 to a spacious sport-limo-car.

     



            Lars,

    Do you reallyy belive that Panamera S is a sportscar with space for four people?Smiley

    Again, any version of Panamera a sportscar?Smiley

    997.2 Carrera S is indeed about 120K € in Germany with nice equipment. BUT, it is a proper sportscar. For 5K € more you can buy Audi R8 4.2 FSI which is again a proper sportscar or Audi RS6 which is NOT a proper sportscar but, a nice sporty limousine...

     

    If Porsche marketing is good enough to made you to belive that Panamera is a sportscar(?!) then they are very, very good indeed...


    I guess it really depends on what he´s looking for in a car, Kreso. If it´s to be used as an Autobahn blaster, then it will certainly be on par with the 911. I don´t think he really assumed that the Panamera would compete with a 911 on twisty roads.


            Hmm... I do not agree. Why? Lars was talking about Panamera S, with 400ps and 2000kg it can not be as fast as 997.2CS in straight line. Did you read RC comments? Even Panamera Turbo will not be as fast as RS6 for example in straight line.

    Panamera is IMHO aimed at Audi S8 or Maser QP buyers. Of course, current Porsche buyers as well, specially Cayenne Turbo buyers. Just, question is as RC pointed out-how much? And what are we getting for that price?

    Regarding looks as I wrote before Panamera is unique car a la Citroen Ds in its glory days...


    Re: Panamera - first hint regarding price tag

    Kreso you are for sure right, that a Panamera S doesnt reach the speed of an Carrera.

    Anyway - the I guess, the Panamera will be the much more solid Autobahn car, much more quit and stable due to the more comfortable suspensions and heavier weight. I just compare now the feeling of driving 250 km/h with my 535d (M-Sport suspension and 275 x 19" dimension tires) with the one of my C2S. The BMW is quiet and feels much more save. Of course it is far away from the acceleration of the C2S. And this is the point I guess I can find on a Panamera. As I stated before, I had couple of days a Panamera Turbo ahead of me. When the car accelerated it was leaving me so strong behind, that I thought I lost 2 Cylinders and the Supercharger on the way.

    Yes - a Panamera S will be slower as a Turbo, and C2S but for sure faster and sportier as my 535d. So I guess, the performance will be anywhere around 5 seconds from 0-100 km/h which would make it comparable to an C2S Convertible. This in combination with an Porsche feeling and spacious for hobbies stuff like golf bags - hmm - this might be my ultimate car and definatley a different league as an S-Class or 7 BMW.



    Re: Panamera - first hint regarding price tag

    Those are the numbers I remember. 50% of total and if you go model to model like the last month 5200 to 900 V6 vs. turbo I will stick with my characterisation that the V6 model represents the vast majority vs other models especially when talking how many real pricey ones get sold or ultra performance, what porsche is known for, vs. drab performance.

    But I am impressed with the trend in GTS sales.


    Re: Panamera - first hint regarding price tag

    Porsche never intended to make the Turbo a mainstream seller.

    For a "truck" the Cayenne is already positionned at the higher end with the bulk of sales being made by the S/GTS. I suspect, BMW and MB are selling more 6 cylinders than Porsche does.

    Turbo/Turbo S are "niche" products.


    Re: Panamera - first hint regarding price tag

    wait until the Diesel is going on sale. They will soon be the majority of all Cayennes.

    Re: Panamera - first hint regarding price tag

    In europe probably, but ROW, probably not.

    Re: Panamera - first hint regarding price tag

    Lars997:
    wait until the Diesel is going on sale. They will soon be the majority of all Cayennes.

     I'd rather buy a Diesel than a V6 3.6lt.

    V8 and above is a different story.


    --
    It's not where you're going, it's how you get there that counts

     
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