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    Old tech or good design?

    Reading many comments on this forum I found something intriguing. Everybody I think should agree that the 911 is basically a 45 year or more old design that just got better with time. Porsche did a really god job of constantly perfecting it while in the same time the engineers left people waiting for more (latest examples: DFI, DSG, a future better PASM, etc.).

    In the same time Ferrari took what is now a 10 year old design (or perhaps even more) like the 360 Modena and also tried to make it better: 360CS, 430, 430 Scud (plus F1 transmission, E-diff, etc.). Soon DFI will be added, 599GTB suspension will make it to 430 finally too and I suspect that Ferrari will not miss the DSG trend either.

    However, many of you look at the 430 Scud as old tech. People on this forum more than any other people should appreciate sticking with an old concept and improving on it.

    I am asking you: is it a fair approach? Aren't we, Porsche lovers too biased?

    Please comment.

    Re: Old tech or good design?

    No, we are NOT.

    Let comment little bit about DSG... Everybody is talking about it but, nobody seems to realize that this wonder gearbox is currently used only in small VAG cars(Golf GTI/R32, Audi TT etc.). Can you really compare this gearbox to something like F1 Superfast or excellent manual in new GT2? Or with SOTA auto box a la ZF one in Jaguar XKR(BTW, IMHO the best auto box on the market)? Of course you can but, main problem with DSG type gearbox is that it needs to mimic all three-manual, sequential manual and true automatic. Simple said IMO it can not work all three things perfectly... Just ask yourself simple question-what is the fastest mode of Golf GTI with DSG on the track-manual or sport(gearchanges are controlled by electronic brain)? Sport Mode of course! So, like it or not all DSG gearboxes are much closer in character to true automatic then to manual or sequential manual. We need to see BMW M-DCT in new M3. It will show us how much potential is in DSG boxes anyway...

    Perfected old designs or new one? It depends a lot but, 997 is more or less 15 years old design not 45 years. Same about Ferrari F430. 430 Scuderia is latest version but, fully advanced sportscar? With just two airbags? Ok, latest chassis development is a nice thing...

    To put it in short-both 997 GT2 and 430 Scuderia are simply awsome cars IMHO. BUT, they are not daily cars-forget about Ferrari or Porsche marketing crap...

    What will be next? DI engines(specially turbo ones), DSG type gearboxes(I am pretty sceptical here!), even better active chassis and even better street tires that will be as fast as current cup tires on the track(but, with excellent wet road capabilities).
    Manual gearbox will probably remain as purist option and we will see more very advanced autoboxes.

    I will put one very contraversial bet here... IMHO super advanced autoboxes will win against DSG types. Of course, I could be wrong... And good old manual will remain as purist option as I said here above...

    Re: Old tech or good design?

    Kreso my friend, you forgot about the Bugatti Veyron.
    That is a very powerful car with a LOT of torque and it has a 7 speed DSG as far as I know. And I didn't heard any complaints from owners or reviewers with regards to the gearbox at least True, it's a monster GT not a pure sport car. But DSG or not, the question remains: are in fact 996+997 pretty similar in marketing and engineering approach with the 360+430?

    And frankly, I don't care if the 430 doesn't have more airbags at least with respect to this topic I started. Having airbags it's not making a car more sporty quite the opposite I would say.

    When I talked about 911 design I meant RWD with rear engine = 45 years old. I really don't know RWD + mid engine design how old is. True, I was a little vague here, comparing designs and models at the same time.

    I believe the F1 Superfast it's really in sync with Ferrari's image. They want you to change the clutch a lot

    Future will bring fo sure: less weight, better susp AND aerodinamics (F's active surfaces), DFI and more than sure (even that I hate it) better turbo tech (it's the best solution to comply with CO2 regulations).

    Agreed, GT2 and 430scud are not everyday cars and personally I would add here the gallardo SL and even the GT3RS (maybe if you are single and you don't drive too much on public roads, just nearby the track these are real everyday cars - lol).

    I must ask again, aren't those two products 911 and 360 very similar in fact?

    Re: Old tech or good design?

    how fast are our average manual shifts ? can we beat the f1 transmissions ?

    Re: Old tech or good design?

    The future looks bright for both manufacturers. I am highly impressed with Ferrari. The Scuderia displays what Ferrari can do, showcases the ability of the manufacturer and surely provides an impression where they are headed into the upcoming years.

    Re: Old tech or good design?

    430 scud are as low as 60 ms. I don' think you can beat that and even if you can match that at one point you will make a mistake.

    Re: Old tech or good design?

    None of this stuff happens in isolation....

    Reality is most customers are not hard-core car guys...want a "cool" car that they can use on their local roads....and can afford....

    R&D guys often lose sight of reality of real-world uses/cost constraints of cars; not sure many smart engineers even work at many car mfrs anyway....doubt any smart <40yo engineer would opt to work for any car mfr, as opposed to a leading SiliconValley tech co.....other shrewd, young engineers would start own tech co. based upon innovative ideas....can easily afford any cars/planes desired if truly a smart, innovative engineer today (or in past 10-20 yrs) in SiliconValley....

    Most marketers at mfrs are clueless re: their major, repeat custs (who often don't fill out surveys/attend car shows, etc )....would argue FNA is smartest re: knowing their repeat custs in US.....AMG/P are fairly weak re: marketing to high-end custs....

    Cos. need to come up w/cars that sell in vols, but have solid profit margins...while preserving brand image of "exclusivity" please shareholders and pay sr mgmt....

    Suspect Dino launch in '08 will destabilize world of AMG/P/F....all in climate of a slowing US economy and consumption of discretionary cars....

    Re: Old tech or good design?

    Pentium, I 100% agree. 996/997 and 360/430 are of similar situation. But while I do not expect any radical changes for the 998, it's an entirely different case for Ferrari and the F142, its F430's successor.

    The F142 will be smaller and lighter than even the 430 Scuderia. No more an everyday supercar like the 360/F430 as that role will be taken by the new F149 ('GT California')

    While I expect the 998 will be a completely new design by Michael Mauer (replacing Harm Lagaay), I do not expect any radical change to the 911's 40-year old silhouette or its rear-engined proportions. Especially as the 998 will have to continue the 911's tradition as an everyday, 2+2 supercar.

    But, F142 will be totally new. Smaller footprint, lower roofline and maybe even fixed seats as Ferrari has hinted.

    It will be closer in shape to the mid-engined, 2-seat Carrera GT than any 911.

    Ferrari's 911 competitor will not be its mid-engined V8 anymore, it will be the front-mid-engined 2+2.

    The F149 will battle Lamborghini's upgraded Gallardo and its successor...

    Re: Old tech or good design?

    So here we go at last, the concept are similar but there is a big difference in what people expect from a Porsche compared with what they expect from a Ferrari ... should I take it that are both old tech or both good designs?

    Re: Old tech or good design?

    Pentium said:
    So here we go at last, the concept are similar but there is a big difference in what people expect from a Porsche compared with what they expect from a Ferrari ... should I take it that are both old tech or both good designs?

    How about : Both were good designs at their time but now they need to change..? In other words, Porsche/Ferrari are milking cash too long as there hadn't been competition but now Lamborghini is waking up, Aston Martin is shooting for the stars and even Audi with the R8. P/F would need to act soon..

    Re: Old tech or good design?

    I am with Shin.

    Re: Old tech or good design?

    Some F-people on this board have been bashing porsche for not updating the looks of the cars, all cars looking alike, etc. (which inherently tells us that they might find looks more important than performance). But in the mean time, Ferrari does the same with their 612 and 599, and with their F360/F430... seems we're all the same afterward eh?

    Re: Old tech or good design?

    Yes shin, yes. Competition should force them to develop better products.

    Re: Old tech or good design?

    Joost: exactly the point I am trying to make here. I am tired of all this P vs F conflict. Both companies are not where they used to be and they need to adapt quickly.



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