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    Re: McLaren excluded from F1 in 2007 2008 ???

    If the FIA wants to hold Mclaren responsible for its employee(s) receiving confidential information from another team, then they should also hold Ferrari responsible for its employee's information leak. Its as simple as that.

    Leaking confidential information between employees of rival companies is very common in todays world. You can't just go around penalizing companies based on some of their employees breaking ethical codes/practices unless you can prove that the top management is the one who approved or initiated the theft. And to prove that its next to impossible.

    And to those voices who are demanding that Alonso and De La Rosa should be banned from the sport for making use of information that was given to them by the Ferrari employee I say wake up and smell the coffee. I'm sure if the tables were turned Massa and Kimi would've used McLaren's info with a thank you smile.

    Re: McLaren excluded from F1 in 2007 2008 ???

    Quote:
    ha said:
    If the FIA wants to hold Mclaren responsible for its employee(s) receiving confidential information from another team, then they should also hold Ferrari responsible for its employee's information leak. Its as simple as that.

    Leaking confidential information between employees of rival companies is very common in todays world. You can't just go around penalizing companies based on some of their employees breaking ethical codes/practices unless you can prove that the top management is the one who approved or initiated the theft. And to prove that its next to impossible.

    And to those voices who are demanding that Alonso and De La Rosa should be banned from the sport for making use of information that was given to them by the Ferrari employee I say wake up and smell the coffee. I'm sure if the tables were turned Massa and Kimi would've used McLaren's info with a thank you smile.




    Absolutely. That doesn't make it right by any margin, but you're correct.

    In any case, since I'm a Ferrari fan, I don't much care about the recent drama .

    Re: McLaren excluded from F1 in 2007 2008 ???

    Quote:
    Porsche-Jeck said:
    Quote:
    Lars997 said:
    If this is true, de la Rosa and Alonso should be banned from the F1 immediatley!





    For me the current F1-season is over now. Can't stand the idea of watching Alonso waving from the podium yet alone winning the drivers' championship



    The drivers were offered immunity by Max Mosley for handing over relevant information, otherwise they would have been in serious trouble right now and would most likely have lost their superlicence for a long time. I have lost all of the little respect I had left for Alonso, and I refuse to believe that Ron Dennis didn't know about any of this. Especially since he is known to be the most uptight control freak in the paddock


    Quote:
    9.3 Exceptionally, because primary responsibility must rest with McLaren, in the
    interests of the sport and also because McLaren's drivers were offered immunity
    from individual sanction by the President of the FIA
    in his letter dated 30 August
    2007, the WMSC does not consider that it is appropriate to impose any sanction
    on them individually or impose sanctions on McLaren which would affect these
    drivers' individual Championship standings. As such, both McLaren drivers will
    retain all the drivers' Championship points they have won so far in the 2007
    season and will be permitted to win drivers' Championship points and attend the
    podium in the remaining races of the 2007 season.


    Re: McLaren excluded from F1 in 2007 2008 ???

    Quote:
    KresoF1 said:
    Do you truly belive that Hamilton did not know anything?



    Of course he knew.And Dennis and Withmarsh were directly involvoed too.

    Re: McLaren excluded from F1 in 2007 2008 ???

    Quote:
    mp said:
    Lately, being a cycling fan has sucked. Now this is spilling over to F1 as well!! May have to stick with tennis?



    Bad news! I think they probably use ecologically questionable synthetic fertilizers on the lawn tennis courts at Wimbeldon.

    Re: McLaren excluded from F1 in 2007 2008 ???

    Quote:
    fritz said:
    Quote:
    mp said:
    Lately, being a cycling fan has sucked. Now this is spilling over to F1 as well!! May have to stick with tennis?



    Bad news! I think they probably use ecologically questionable synthetic fertilizers on the lawn tennis courts at Wimbeldon.



    Funny thing is, everybody gets doped in cycling. They have reached their genetic potential and only drugs can help them break through the plateau. Stealing somebody else's work (as in Ferrari's settings) is much worse in that regard.

    Re: McLaren excluded from F1 in 2007 2008 ???

    much ado about nothing - gas in the tires, kimi pitting on lap 18, who cares?

    I have not seen anything about stolen blueprints on some unique gearbox,

    Give me the senna, prost, piquet, mansell days when it was about racing and race drivers. The drivers made the decisions on the fly not some computer. they also passed each other.

    Re: McLaren excluded from F1 in 2007 2008 ???

    Quote:
    KresoF1 said:
    Do you truly belive that Hamilton did not know anything?



    Yes, of course.
    He is British

    Re: McLaren excluded from F1 in 2007 2008 ???

    heheh!

    Re: McLaren excluded from F1 in 2007 2008 ???

    Quote:
    easy_rider911 said:
    Okay, the drivers' testimony enabled the FIA to catch the bigger fish, namely McLaren itself, but surely they deserve some form of censure. Total immunity due to their cooperation with the investigation is gut-wrenching to bear. They are equally culpable in my eyes.



    I'm kind of undecided as to whether or not the drivers should be punished. It wasn't really their fault that the engineers used the Ferrari data, but on the other hand, they were driving with car that had been created with stolen documents. Either way, this really is a sad time for F1.

    Re: McLaren excluded from F1 in 2007 2008 ???

    Quote:
    Adam R said:
    Quote:
    easy_rider911 said:
    Okay, the drivers' testimony enabled the FIA to catch the bigger fish, namely McLaren itself, but surely they deserve some form of censure. Total immunity due to their cooperation with the investigation is gut-wrenching to bear. They are equally culpable in my eyes.



    I'm kind of undecided as to whether or not the drivers should be punished. It wasn't really their fault that the engineers used the Ferrari data, but on the other hand, they were driving with car that had been created with stolen documents. Either way, this really is a sad time for F1.



    I have not followed this sordid business thoroughly so I may have missed a few news items, but could anyone please correct the following facts, deductions or conclusions if you know them to be wrong:

    - I believe I read somewhere that Ferrari mechanic Nigel Stepney and McLaren engineer Mike Coughlan were both thinking of hiring on with a third F1 racing team (Renault or Toyota???) before they got caught out in this situation. I deduce from this that Coughlan's loyalty to McLaren was already questionable and suspect that any Ferrari data passed on by Stepney and collected by Coughlan might have been part of their collective "data base" for use in a new job at a less competitive team which needs to catch up with the front runners. Would Coughlan have offered the date to the management of a team he intended to leave?
    - If McLaren management was aware of the "stolen" data, would it have informed the drivers of it? I doubt it very much.
    a) Drivers would not need to know the true origin of a teams new developments to do their job.
    b) Drivers change teams more often than technical staff, so would be an extremely high security risk.
    c) Race drivers are notorious blabbermouths anyway and for this reason are frequently not told any more by their teams than they have to know to do their job, even where the teams' own developments are concerned. I deduce that Coughlan blabbed to de la Rosa, who in turn blabbed to Alonso. I suspect that Ron Dennis would cringe at the thought of his drivers getting involved in discussions about Ferrari using a "secret gas" in its cars' tires.
    d) Any e-mails exchanged by de la Rosa and Alonso would surely have been in Spanish. In view of other recent events it is quite credible that Hamilton was not involved in this communication loop, explaining why he went with Ron Dennis to back him up at the FIA meeting.
    e) I have not yet heard of any Ferrari feature which found its way into the McLaren car as a direct result of information passed on by Stepney. Has there been any evidence to this effect?
    - Personally, I cannot imagine McLaren people ever copying Ferrari in a wholesale manner. Not just because their sense of ethics or their pride wouldn't let them. Their arrogance, for the want of a better word, would not let them. Obviously, any team seeing a new feature on a competitor's car which might offer a technical advantage would study it, investigate its effects on its own car, and then use it if it proved to be good. That is all legitimate and happens all the time.
    Also, you do not get to be better than a competitor by copying him as McLaren has generally been better than Ferrari this year. Best you can hope for is to catch up a little by copying, if you are not getting anywhere with your own car otherwise.

    So far, I have not heard anything to conclusively show that Ron Dennis was aware of or condoned the acquisition of Ferrari paperwork by Coughlan. Have I missed something?

    If I have not missed relevant facts showing that my presumptions, deductions and conclusions above are wrong, it should have been Alonso who was punished by FIA by having championship points discounted, not the McLaren team. Coughlan and Stepney will be punished anyway, one way or another.

    Re: McLaren excluded from F1 in 2007 2008 ???

    i can see tomorrow winner!

    Re: McLaren excluded from F1 in 2007 2008 ???

    This is sad. The FIA should not be involved. This is an affair between 2 constructors. Ferrari is the one who should review its personnel procedures. As far as McLaren, if its drivers Alonso DelaRosa got wind of Ferrari methods, they should be the one to be reprimanded.

    Re: McLaren excluded from F1 in 2007 2008 ???

    Quote:
    ADias said:
    This is sad. The FIA should not be involved. This is an affair between 2 constructors. Ferrari is the one who should review its personnel procedures. As far as McLaren, if its drivers Alonso DelaRosa got wind of Ferrari methods, they should be the one to be reprimanded.



    Well McLaren has apparently used the Ferrari data, which is why the FIA punished them.

    Re: McLaren excluded from F1 in 2007 2008 ???

    Quote:
    Adam R said:
    Well McLaren has apparently used the Ferrari data, which is why the FIA punished them.



    Do we know this?

    Which "data" were used?

    Was McLaren management aware of the "data" being information illegally obtained by one of its staff from a Ferrari staff member.

    Some people seem to assume there is no smoke without fire. Are we just looking at a smoke screen?

    Re: McLaren excluded from F1 in 2007 2008 ???

    Quote:
    fritz said:
    Quote:
    Adam R said:
    Well McLaren has apparently used the Ferrari data, which is why the FIA punished them.



    Do we know this?

    Which "data" were used?

    Was McLaren management aware of the "data" being information illegally obtained by one of its staff from a Ferrari staff member.

    Some people seem to assume there is no smoke without fire. Are we just looking at a smoke screen?



    We don't know this, which is why I said apparently. I downloaded a pdf file from the FIA's site. I don't have a direct link to it anymore (I can't remember where I found it), but I uploaded it myself:

    http://www.megaupload.com/?d=Z00F0TH5

    Re: McLaren excluded from F1 in 2007 2008 ???

    Along with all this... the FIA stinks. Its F1 rules limits the advance of the sport. Now next year we are going to have a common ECU... Nuts!

    Re: McLaren excluded from F1 in 2007 2008 ???

    http://www.elpais.com/graficos/deportes/...lpepudep_1/Ges/

     
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