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    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    Topspeed:

    This picture makes it look a LOT better than previous shots. 


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    Not that it's by any means an instrumented test, but someone on the McLaren forum is currently driving it for the last few days and says it's amazing. It's sitting in his garage now, in fact. He also has a P1 and 688 HS, so his standards for McLaren should be pretty high.


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    J.Seven:
     
    ALDO:

    Before buying mine 650 s I had three meetings with sales guy from Ferrari about a 488. Two times with me my complete family. After each visit, either me or in case with the family, we came to the conclusion that a 488 is not the car for me. My family is strong related to sports cars as a consumer and from the other side (Smiley). We have visited also my friend who works for Bentley and Lamborghini (Gohm) and we did not spend more then 5 minutes looking at a Huracan. Huracan is the last car I would buy. In any case I would take R8 before Huracan. 

    --

    Why? 

    I do not buy car because they are 10 seconds faster on NBR or 0.2 seconds to 200 km/h. I buy a sports car for having fun, for enjoying and as a present for my hard work. Therefor the numbers don't count but the emotion.

    When driving a car you have to identify with this car.

    Some of the sports cars have a dubious reputation as Corvette and for me Lamborghini. A friend of mine has a Aventador SV. I never understood how he can drive this car. The Lamborghini community is totally different from McLaren or Porsche community. 

    Someone said the Ferrari owners drive their car to the next coffee bar while the McLarens are on some nice twisty roads enjoying the car and the surrounding. 

    I can't identify with a Lamborghini and have also some problems (minor) with a Ferrari. 


    --

    AM


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    Depreciation and service is the biggest obstacle to me buying a McLaren. Its joker face doesn't help.


    --

    "A man wrapped up in himself makes for a very small bundle."


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    Aren't there like 5 dealers throughout California? Shouldn't be a problem servicing them...


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    noone1:
    MKSGR:
    noone1:

    They sold like 3500 cars last year, and expect to sell more this year. I think the market size can easily support them.

    Just look at the resale market to see the dimension of the problem... There are not enough people in this world to fulfill all the sales expectations of Ferrari, Lamborghini, McLaren, Porsche... Not even in these days (meaning: before the next global economic crisis).

    Yes there are. Look at the resale market for Bentley and Rolls Royce and every other $200-400K car. There are tons of people who buy multiple cars for all the brands and many people who own cars simultaneously from all brand. Hell, people like Crayphile own at least 1 of each at any given time and upgrade seemingly every year to the latest model.

    Ferrari, Lamborghini, and Porsche collectively sell maybe 15K cars per year. There are many millions of people in the world with vast amounts of wealth.

    You are not telling me anything new here. Just check the resale market - it is very bad for McLaren. Too many cars, too few buyers. The brand is too young, no established buyer base yet. Consequently, they need to work hard to sell a new car and consequently if you want to sell a used car you have to work even harder... These things will take many, many years to change, I am afraid Smiley


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    Lambo resale values are pretty bad too..


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    Audi too.


    --

    2015 981 Cayman GT4 | Powerkit White - The fastest car on Rennteam
    2013 Audi S3 | Glacier White


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    We've got a dealer in Zürich, so no problem with service, but resale and the prospect of how you even sell keeps me out surprise

    Leasing is very expensive, too - for the same reason.


    --

    2015 911 GT3, 1964 Type 1


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    Too many players in a very narrow market. That's what I mean.


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    SciFrog:

    Lambo resale values are pretty bad too..

    I general , Yes  - but not for the Aventador SV.


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    MKSGR:
    noone1:
    MKSGR:
    noone1:

    They sold like 3500 cars last year, and expect to sell more this year. I think the market size can easily support them.

    Just look at the resale market to see the dimension of the problem... There are not enough people in this world to fulfill all the sales expectations of Ferrari, Lamborghini, McLaren, Porsche... Not even in these days (meaning: before the next global economic crisis).

    Yes there are. Look at the resale market for Bentley and Rolls Royce and every other $200-400K car. There are tons of people who buy multiple cars for all the brands and many people who own cars simultaneously from all brand. Hell, people like Crayphile own at least 1 of each at any given time and upgrade seemingly every year to the latest model.

    Ferrari, Lamborghini, and Porsche collectively sell maybe 15K cars per year. There are many millions of people in the world with vast amounts of wealth.

    You are not telling me anything new here. Just check the resale market - it is very bad for McLaren. Too many cars, too few buyers. The brand is too young, no established buyer base yet. Consequently, they need to work hard to sell a new car and consequently if you want to sell a used car you have to work even harder... These things will take many, many years to change, I am afraid Smiley

    Resale market on just about everything is bad except brand new Ferrari models.

    Huracan - $50K+ under MSRP in less than one year in it's first year out
    991 Porsche Turbo - $40-50K under MSRP in it's first year out
    AM Vanquish - $100K+ under MSRP in less than a year
    Audi R8 V10 Plus - $50K under MSRP in first year

    There are enough people in the world who just don't care about depreciation. If the average exotic buy earns $300-500K per year, they can cover the 5 year cost of owning a new McLaren within a few months. It's not a big deal.

    And if you're concerned with profit margins for McLaren, don't be. If they could sell the 570S for around $200K profitably, you can rest assure they are making a shit load on their $300K+ cars even in lower volume. Same goes for the R8/Huracan. 


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    I second noone1. They all depreciate except V8 Ferraris and limited models. If you don't like the depreciate buy a two year old one.


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    With hybrids coming and n/a models disappearing (I heard that the F812 Superfast will be the last Ferrari with a n/a engine), I wonder how resale value will develop. Smiley

    To be honest: I think that sportscars with n/a engines will keep their value or even grow in value and sportscars with hybrid tech, the so called "intermediary" solutions, will depreciate immensely once ELV sportscars will be "ready" for primetime around 2025/2030 (just a wild guess). 

    On the other hand...guys...this is the best thing which can happen to us sportscars enthusiasts. Lower prices, better lease deals, whatever...wonderful times. Smiley 


    --

     

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet (2015), Porsche Cayenne S Diesel (2017), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mini JCW (2015)

     


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    How long does the battery on a Prius last?


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    Good walkthrough of rationale behind some of the 720S design details. The questionable headlights are quite impressive with the air inlets

     


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    noone1:
    MKSGR:
    noone1:
    MKSGR:
    noone1:

    They sold like 3500 cars last year, and expect to sell more this year. I think the market size can easily support them.

    Just look at the resale market to see the dimension of the problem... There are not enough people in this world to fulfill all the sales expectations of Ferrari, Lamborghini, McLaren, Porsche... Not even in these days (meaning: before the next global economic crisis).

    Yes there are. Look at the resale market for Bentley and Rolls Royce and every other $200-400K car. There are tons of people who buy multiple cars for all the brands and many people who own cars simultaneously from all brand. Hell, people like Crayphile own at least 1 of each at any given time and upgrade seemingly every year to the latest model.

    Ferrari, Lamborghini, and Porsche collectively sell maybe 15K cars per year. There are many millions of people in the world with vast amounts of wealth.

    You are not telling me anything new here. Just check the resale market - it is very bad for McLaren. Too many cars, too few buyers. The brand is too young, no established buyer base yet. Consequently, they need to work hard to sell a new car and consequently if you want to sell a used car you have to work even harder... These things will take many, many years to change, I am afraid Smiley

    Resale market on just about everything is bad except brand new Ferrari models.

    Huracan - $50K+ under MSRP in less than one year in it's first year out
    991 Porsche Turbo - $40-50K under MSRP in it's first year out
    AM Vanquish - $100K+ under MSRP in less than a year
    Audi R8 V10 Plus - $50K under MSRP in first year

    There are enough people in the world who just don't care about depreciation. If the average exotic buy earns $300-500K per year, they can cover the 5 year cost of owning a new McLaren within a few months. It's not a big deal.

    And if you're concerned with profit margins for McLaren, don't be. If they could sell the 570S for around $200K profitably, you can rest assure they are making a shit load on their $300K+ cars even in lower volume. Same goes for the R8/Huracan. 

    Ferrari is fine. Porsche, turbo, GT3, GTS, normal cabriolet etc., as well (looking at central Europe) - just as an example: 19 turbo s cabriolets for resale on mobile.de, approx. 2.5x (!) as many 650s spider. Not to mention the coupes... The turbo s are offered for a maximum discount of 10%...

    The 488 spider is even better. Impossible to find a car at list price...

    Both cars have an established buyer base. In contrast, Lamborghini, R8, AM, McLaren are the "newcomers". They have to work much, much harder. And these cars have a much higher depreciation risk. Even more so in a down-turn, I am afraid.


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    SciFrog:

    How long does the battery on a Prius last?

    I don't think the hybrid tech really needs to be useful. Either sportscar manufacturers will use it to increase power, for example for short accelerations and similar stuff or they use it for getting a better CO2 output...on paper. Smiley Smiley

    Either way, the hybrid tech is coming to sportscars because there seems no other way to deal with new emissions standards. Smiley Unless you really want to see those 4-cyl. or 6-cyl. Biturbos in +200k cars.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet (2015), Porsche Cayenne S Diesel (2017), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mini JCW (2015)


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    MKSGR:
    noone1:
    MKSGR:
    noone1:
    MKSGR:
    noone1:

    They sold like 3500 cars last year, and expect to sell more this year. I think the market size can easily support them.

    Just look at the resale market to see the dimension of the problem... There are not enough people in this world to fulfill all the sales expectations of Ferrari, Lamborghini, McLaren, Porsche... Not even in these days (meaning: before the next global economic crisis).

    Yes there are. Look at the resale market for Bentley and Rolls Royce and every other $200-400K car. There are tons of people who buy multiple cars for all the brands and many people who own cars simultaneously from all brand. Hell, people like Crayphile own at least 1 of each at any given time and upgrade seemingly every year to the latest model.

    Ferrari, Lamborghini, and Porsche collectively sell maybe 15K cars per year. There are many millions of people in the world with vast amounts of wealth.

    You are not telling me anything new here. Just check the resale market - it is very bad for McLaren. Too many cars, too few buyers. The brand is too young, no established buyer base yet. Consequently, they need to work hard to sell a new car and consequently if you want to sell a used car you have to work even harder... These things will take many, many years to change, I am afraid Smiley

    Resale market on just about everything is bad except brand new Ferrari models.

    Huracan - $50K+ under MSRP in less than one year in it's first year out
    991 Porsche Turbo - $40-50K under MSRP in it's first year out
    AM Vanquish - $100K+ under MSRP in less than a year
    Audi R8 V10 Plus - $50K under MSRP in first year

    There are enough people in the world who just don't care about depreciation. If the average exotic buy earns $300-500K per year, they can cover the 5 year cost of owning a new McLaren within a few months. It's not a big deal.

    And if you're concerned with profit margins for McLaren, don't be. If they could sell the 570S for around $200K profitably, you can rest assure they are making a shit load on their $300K+ cars even in lower volume. Same goes for the R8/Huracan. 

    Ferrari is fine. Porsche, turbo, GT3, GTS, normal cabriolet etc., as well (looking at central Europe) - just as an example: 19 turbo s cabriolets for resale on mobile.de, approx. 2.5x (!) as many 650s spider. Not to mention the coupes... The turbo s are offered for a maximum discount of 10%...

    The 488 spider is even better. Impossible to find a car at list price...

    Both cars have an established buyer base. In contrast, Lamborghini, R8, AM, McLaren are the "newcomers". They have to work much, much harder. And these cars have a much higher depreciation risk. Even more so in a down-turn, I am afraid.

    Um, you're comparing used inventory of a car that came out in 2011/2012 to cars that came out in 2013/2014/2015/2016? Of course there are more 12C and 650S for sale at lower prices than 488 Spiders. How about you compare McLaren used inventory to 458s and see how many there are.

    Also, since when is Lamborghini a new comer? It's had entry and flagship exotics for nearly 15 years now. It's far from a new comer, and if you look online, there are tons of used Huracan way under MSRP.

    AM? Again, they've been around for decades.

    There's no "depreciation" risk. All non-Ferraris depreciate a lot. Period. I'd point out that the 570S is doing fine in terms of residuals and inventory, as is the GT. 675 LT/Spider are doing fine as well. P1 of course is fine too.


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    noone1:

    There's no "depreciation" risk. All non-Ferraris depreciate a lot. Period. I'd point out that the 570S is doing fine in terms of residuals and inventory, as is the GT. 675 LT/Spider are doing fine as well. P1 of course is fine too.

    It's great that you see no risks - then you can buy the car without being worried about the depreciation Smiley

    I see a significant depreciation risk. Limited number of buyers. Many cars. Next downturn will also happen Smiley

    Ferrari and Porsche have a much more stable demand structure in my view.


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    Ferrari and Porsche prices shit the bed in 2008 also FYI and the reason Porsche residuals are better is simply because the cars cost a fraction of the price. Why doesn't a Turbo or GT3 or GTS depreciate $100K? Because the cars cost half as much as a McLaren or Lamborghini. Spec a $300K 991 Turbo and let me know about residuals..

    Also, the strong residuals for GT cars from Porsche is a recent development. They were nowhere near what they are now. I remember in 2012 having the option to buy a 20K mile CGT for $275K. Even as recent as 3 years ago CGT prices were a fraction of what they are now. Suddenly people started paying big money for manual cars, like $600K for a shitty 6-speed 599 just because it's a manual.

    Porsche residuals have only been good on GT cars in the last few years.


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    noone1:

    Ferrari and Porsche prices shit the bed in 2008 also FYI and the reason Porsche residuals are better is simply because the cars cost a fraction of the price. Why doesn't a Turbo or GT3 or GTS depreciate $100K? Because the cars cost half as much as a McLaren or Lamborghini. Spec a $300K 991 Turbo and let me know about residuals..

    Also, the strong residuals for GT cars from Porsche is a recent development. They were nowhere near what they are now. I remember in 2012 having the option to buy a 20K mile CGT for $275K. Even as recent as 3 years ago CGT prices were a fraction of what they are now. Suddenly people started paying big money for manual cars, like $600K for a shitty 6-speed 599 just because it's a manual.

    Porsche residuals have only been good on GT cars in the last few years.

    This is not correct, sorry:

    - there is hardly any difference between GT2/turbo pricing and McLaren pricing (at least in central Europe) - at least not from my perspective as a buyer of these cars

    - I have been driving Porsche GT models since 2008 and the residuals were always strong (although resale value was not above MSRP as recently) 


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    The difference in price between a 991 Turbo and a 650S is at least 50K Euro, more likely 75K after options. There is no GT2 and the 997 GT2 RS depreciated massively before only recently appreciating. And that was model limited to 500 cars.

    Even bare bones, not a single option, the 650S was 30K Euro more than a Turbo S. Someone just said base price in Germany for 720S is 247K Euro.


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    noone1:

    The difference in price between a 991 Turbo and a 650S is at least 50K Euro, more likely 75K after options. There is no GT2 and the 997 GT2 RS depreciated massively before only recently appreciating. And that was model limited to 500 cars.

    Even bare bones, not a single option, the 650S was 30K Euro more than a Turbo S. Someone just said base price in Germany for 720S is 247K Euro.

    Do you think that 30k or 50k make a difference to buyers of these cars? To me these cars are all in the same class, i.e. I don't think about their relative pricing when deciding to order one of these cars Smiley

    The GT2RS did not depreciate massively even before the hype: for example I had one with about 60.000km that sold for about 25% below MSRP after 3.5 years. Another example: a GT2 (also 3.5 years old) I sold with about 90.000km for approx. 35% below MSRP. Not so bad Smiley 


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    In % terms, 991 turbos seems to depreciate way more than McLaren or Lamborghini. Panamera and higher model cayennes are even worse. 


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    MKSGR:
    noone1:

    The difference in price between a 991 Turbo and a 650S is at least 50K Euro, more likely 75K after options. There is no GT2 and the 997 GT2 RS depreciated massively before only recently appreciating. And that was model limited to 500 cars.

    Even bare bones, not a single option, the 650S was 30K Euro more than a Turbo S. Someone just said base price in Germany for 720S is 247K Euro.

    Do you think that 30k or 50k make a difference to buyers of these cars? To me these cars are all in the same class, i.e. I don't think about their relative pricing when deciding to order one of these cars Smiley

    The GT2RS did not depreciate massively even before the hype: for example I had one with about 60.000km that sold for about 25% below MSRP after 3.5 years. Another example: a GT2 (also 3.5 years old) I sold with about 90.000km for approx. 35% below MSRP. Not so bad Smiley 

    If $30-50K doesn't matter, then $30-50K in depreciation doesn't matter.

    How much does the average McLaren owner make per year? 300K? 500K? So they lose an extra month's salary or two in depreciation over 5 years.

    Again, I don't see what the big deal is to many buyer. You underestimate the wealth and income of many buyers. Some care deeply about value and depreciation, but many simply don't, nor do they need to. I buy used because I just don't need a car that bad, nor in a very specific spec. Some people do and they have no problem paying for it.

     


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    Buying a $250k car when you make $300k a year seems like a really bad idea...


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    SciFrog:

    In % terms, 991 turbos seems to depreciate way more than McLaren or Lamborghini. Panamera and higher model cayennes are even worse. 

    For example, there is not a single used 991.1 turbo s cabriolet selling for below 150.000 Euro in Germany, these cars are approx. 50.000km and 3 years old. This would be a discount of approx 30% vs MSRSP. Assuming most buyers get approx 5% discount that would result in about 25% vs retail price. I am sure you will have a very hard time in selling a used McLaren with these km and age specs with just 25% discount vs retail (i.e. for about 205.000 Euro, assuming you paid approx. 270.000 for it)...


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    noone1:
    MKSGR:
    noone1:

    The difference in price between a 991 Turbo and a 650S is at least 50K Euro, more likely 75K after options. There is no GT2 and the 997 GT2 RS depreciated massively before only recently appreciating. And that was model limited to 500 cars.

    Even bare bones, not a single option, the 650S was 30K Euro more than a Turbo S. Someone just said base price in Germany for 720S is 247K Euro.

    Do you think that 30k or 50k make a difference to buyers of these cars? To me these cars are all in the same class, i.e. I don't think about their relative pricing when deciding to order one of these cars Smiley

    The GT2RS did not depreciate massively even before the hype: for example I had one with about 60.000km that sold for about 25% below MSRP after 3.5 years. Another example: a GT2 (also 3.5 years old) I sold with about 90.000km for approx. 35% below MSRP. Not so bad Smiley 

    If $30-50K doesn't matter, then $30-50K in depreciation doesn't matter.



     

    We were discussing the retail prices, right? Then you don't "burn" the full 30 or 50k but only the depreciation percentage on these amounts. If depreciation would be 40% the numbers would then be 18 and 30k, respectively Smiley


    Re: McLaren on a winning streak

    SciFrog:

    Buying a $250k car when you make $300k a year seems like a really bad idea...

    You are safe to assume that most buyers of these cars are less wealthy / have lower income than one would expect... Most people with money have no interest in exotic cars (in a sense they would get one or even several). Buyers are mostly younger freaks, many of them spending a disproportional share of their wealth / income on cars.

    One should not forget that cars (even high-priced ones) are "cheap" compared to really expensive things... Thus they are no real sign of wealth, although this may sound strange.


     
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