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    Re: Alfa Romeo 4C

    That is Carbon Fiber tapesmiley

    And if Porsche offered a " 'Ring CF Tape Package" I bet they would get more than a few customers. angry Especially if US customers were told that they couldn't order it. indecision

    Give the Alfa 4C a chance. It needs to prove that it is the first Alfa that doesn't change its own oil...on your driveway.


    Re: Alfa Romeo 4C

    JimFlat6:

    Give the Alfa 4C a chance. It needs to prove that it is the first Alfa that doesn't change its own oil...on your driveway.

    They've been proving that for years now ever since the early 90's. It's just you've been denied the opportunity to verify it in the US Smiley They've even had (whisper it) reliable electrics for a long, long time now as well.

    Cars like the 156 were well built with strong engines, competitive materials quality and well protected against corrosion. There are lots of examples still going strong with what would once have been considered inter galactic mileages for Italian cars Smiley They tend to be scraped now from being uneconomical to repair versus market value as opposed to 25 + years back being scraped due to tin worm infecting them at an early age and panels disappearing in a cloud of red oxide dust before your very eyes Smiley


    Re: Alfa Romeo 4C

    I guess 0,5 sec per km at the ring in normal tracks up to 1 sec per km


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    993 c2


    Re: Alfa Romeo 4C

    xander71:

    I guess 0,5 sec per km at the ring in normal tracks up to 1 sec per km

    That's about 10 sec for the Nordschleife. Quite a difference. So the 4C would have been around 8:14 compared to the Cayman 8:04 with normal tyres.


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    "Form follows function"


    Re: Alfa Romeo 4C

    I don't get the point why everybody keeps comparing the 4C to a Cayman S. Two different cars and Alfa Romeo never meant to compete with the Cayman. The journalists all made that comparison, but it has never been Alfa's intention. The fact that it gets compared with the Cayman, says to me a lot about how good the car has become on such a tight budget for development of this car.

    I know that I've made the comparison with my Boxster myself, but that's only because I own a Boxster and may be replacing it with a 4C in the future. 

    I think Alfa made a mistake to even do a laptime on the Nordschleife... It says nothing about how rewarding a car is to drive and IMO that is the most important task of this car. Reward the buyers with a nice drive and tons of fun, that you don't get from a lot of other cars in that pricerange.

    The whole Nordschleife thing is just a hype.  First of all it's a completely different track than most other tracks (power is a more deciding factor than on other tracks) and second, who really cares anyways?  If you take a car on a trackday and you have tons of fun, does a good or bad Nordschliefe time change anything on the fun you have?? I don't think so... 

    And if people do want to compare it with something else, than take a look at Lotus. (Elise, Exige). I don't know what laptimes they did, but I think that is a better comparison than a Cayman S.


    --

    Suzy

     


    Re: Alfa Romeo 4C

    Actually, Alfa started it all. If you attempt a NBR lap it cannot be evaluated in isolation but relative to reference cars.

    Looking at the list of cars at just over the 8 minute mark, the only current model is the Cayman S, which also happens to be a mid engined car from a potentially rival manufacturer in that segment. The comparison is inevitable.

    Don't look at the market situation now, but Porsche and Alfa were rivals in the 70s and early 80s with the GTV 2.0 and 2.5 rivaling the 924s and early 944s.


    --

    "Form follows function"


    Re: Alfa Romeo 4C

    ISUK:
    JimFlat6:

    Give the Alfa 4C a chance. It needs to prove that it is the first Alfa that doesn't change its own oil...on your driveway.

    They've been proving that for years now ever since the early 90's. It's just you've been denied the opportunity to verify it in the US Smiley They've even had (whisper it) reliable electrics for a long, long time now as well.

    Cars like the 156 were well built with strong engines, competitive materials quality and well protected against corrosion. There are lots of examples still going strong with what would once have been considered inter galactic mileages for Italian cars Smiley They tend to be scraped now from being uneconomical to repair versus market value as opposed to 25 + years back being scraped due to tin worm infecting them at an early age and panels disappearing in a cloud of red oxide dust before your very eyes Smiley

    My 1990 Alfa 164 3.0 V6 was far more reliable than the BMW 328i that replaced it in 1994.... I had no reliability, quality or rust issues with that car whatsoever. The BMW broke down and had to be towed away twice, for unconnected mechanical issues. And don't even ask about the arrogant and indifferent BMW dealers......Smiley


    --

     

    Porsche 997 Carrera S PDK Aqua Blue / Black - Skoda Octavia Mk.3 daily drive


    Re: Alfa Romeo 4C

    dreamcar:
    ISUK:
    JimFlat6:

    Give the Alfa 4C a chance. It needs to prove that it is the first Alfa that doesn't change its own oil...on your driveway.

    They've been proving that for years now ever since the early 90's. It's just you've been denied the opportunity to verify it in the US Smiley They've even had (whisper it) reliable electrics for a long, long time now as well.

    Cars like the 156 were well built with strong engines, competitive materials quality and well protected against corrosion. There are lots of examples still going strong with what would once have been considered inter galactic mileages for Italian cars Smiley They tend to be scraped now from being uneconomical to repair versus market value as opposed to 25 + years back being scraped due to tin worm infecting them at an early age and panels disappearing in a cloud of red oxide dust before your very eyes Smiley

    My 1990 Alfa 164 3.0 V6 was far more reliable than the BMW 328i that replaced it in 1994.... I had no reliability, quality or rust issues with that car whatsoever. The BMW broke down and had to be towed away twice, for unconnected mechanical issues. And don't even ask about the arrogant and indifferent BMW dealers......Smiley


    Why didn't you stay with Alfa? The dealer network was rather poor from what I had heard , but was that the reason?


    --

    "Form follows function"


    Re: Alfa Romeo 4C

    Probably, that would be the gap.

    In other tracks I think there is no match between the 2 cars, only in monza the cayman must be quicker .

    but i guess that no one is so interested in the nurb times anymore, it is just a commercial and marketing question nowadays. The ring is so much different from some years ago, and the fact that it is almost in bankrupt says it all unfortunatlySmiley

     


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    993 c2


    Re: Alfa Romeo 4C

    I don't know much about the NBR financials but I think that the bankruptcy was the result of the entertainment park project within the track's premises. The project started but the investors disappeared together with the promised funding, or something along these lines. I don't think the failure was  related to its primary business as a track for race/test/privateer use.

    It still generates a revenue of some 60m EUR from what I know.

    Anyway, a digression from the 4C topic.


    --

    "Form follows function"


    Re: Alfa Romeo 4C

    reginos:


    Why didn't you stay with Alfa? The dealer network was rather poor from what I had heard , but was that the reason?


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    "Form follows function"

    Towards the end of my 164 ownership Fiat ditched all the enthusiastic Alfa dealers and insisted that FIAsT dealers undertook all the servicing, so that was the end of good Alfa dealers. Secondly I didn't like the range, the 166 was pug-ugly after the Pininfarina designed 164. After the BMW 328i I had my first sports car, a Honda S2000, and after that my first Porsche. I also had a range of bog standard cars to use as a work commute car. 

    Even now here in the UK dealers are still not very good, and the marque sadly languishes at the bottom of customer satisfaction surveys and depreciation is horrendous. 


    --

     

    Porsche 997 Carrera S PDK Aqua Blue / Black - Skoda Octavia Mk.3 daily drive


    Re: Alfa Romeo 4C

    I love the ring and im well over 200 laps in there, but there have been to much around it, the idea was good but we go there for drive and  not having fun doing other things.

    Back to track, the cayman is probably the best porsche today, fit in 400 hp and it will surclass the 911. You know that in italy the porsche club did make a national race category for the cayman, it was so good and fast that porsche did some important changes in the category to slow tha car!!!! Otherwise the 911 clients could get upset!! This was in 2007 or 2008 if i dont remeber wrong

    so if an alfa 4c is almost as fast as a cayman or faster, it is an fantastic result for that money, and in porsches track where they develop everything and with walter as tester!! It is like alonso in fiorano track !!

    i love 911 and cayman, but i think this 4c can really get clients for its particularity which it makes a car with no competitor, smart move by alfa.

     

     

     


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    993 c2


    Re: Alfa Romeo 4C

    kiss I fully agree :)  Alfa did the right thing and they have managed to make a true little sportscar a the way Alfa tomeos should be IMO.

    Except for the part that the cayman with a 400hp engine would be better than a 911. It would be different, but not better I think. Look at the Ruf 3800S. That's not faster than a 991 Carrera S, but it will handle differently and probably better for people that aren't used to a 911's driving characteristics.

    Nontheless, the Cayman/Boxster is a fantastic car. :)


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    Suzy

     


    Re: Alfa Romeo 4C

    My dealer still does not have a clue when the 4C is coming to Australia and has not taken deposits (yes, really!) for 3 months. He reckons from the interest in the 4C that they could easily sell 1,000 cars in Australia if they received allocation.

    Am looking at getting a different car next year and a 4C would be great, but leaning towards the CLA 45 or A45 at this stage. Yes, and I know they are completely different.! Reason being I put my name down for a 4C in early August, when I phoned yesterday spoke to the same salesman, but when he looked I was not on their list, for a $100g car (it will be this price in Australia) this service before delivery is a bit of a worry!  

    The CLA can be ordered now, looking at March delivery, it is backed by Merc, not Alfa and it is a good Q car. Not driven the CLA45 yet but have taken out the A45 round the block with the dealer. Enjoyed it but it did not give me the tingle in the lower part of the male anatomy which immediately means you must have this car! Going to take it out for another drive next week i hope.


    Re: Alfa Romeo 4C

    The 4C uses a dry clutch transmission. I wonder whether in view of its track potential, Alfa Romeo should adopt a wet clutch DCT for better cooling. i know that wet clutch is for higher torque engines and it adds weight and fuel consumption, but why take a risk? I am sure VW-Audi would have chosen the wet clutch box out of the two types available to them for a similar car. German overengineering or prudence? 

     


    --

    "Form follows function"


    Re: Alfa Romeo 4C

    The way Alfa have handled the launch of the 4C everywhere is woeful Woolfe. They made the same dreadful marketing foul up with the 8C so you'd have thought they'd have learned valuable lessons from that but it appears not.

    The car has been shown to the press and is now generating the level of interest that the FIAT board must have hoped for yet their Alfa dealerships appear to remain in the dark over how many cars they will be allocated to sell, not enough printed brochures are available for buyers with deposits down on the car, and there are no indications on potential delivery dates. It's a shambles considering they know their daily production capacity limits and must surely have had some idea of how they intended to split this volume by sales territory. The Launch Edition customers have a clause in their contract which allows Alfa to deliver the car up to 150 days from the provisional delivery date. That suggests Alfa were not confident that either all of the engineering work would be completed on time of that there may well be production/supplier issues.

    For a model intended to create a brand halo this confused launch may well serve the opposite effect and re-affirm stereotypes of disorganised Italians over promising and under delivering yes


    Re: Alfa Romeo 4C

    For a model intended to create a brand halo this confused launch may well serve the opposite effect and re-affirm stereotypes of disorganised Italians over promising and under delivering

    kiss Very well said! 

     

     


    Re: Alfa Romeo 4C

    Glad that I didn't say it first angry (Which does not necessarily imply that I had even thought of it previously)

     


    Re: Alfa Romeo 4C

    I actually wondered can the car go at least a couple tanks full of gas before the need to head to the dealer to fix something.


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    Re: Alfa Romeo 4C

    I guess that nowadays, there is not such a big difference in breaking down from other cars

    we have porsches mercedes and audis and some small fiat , and the only cars that has never let me down in order to call a tow are the fiats!!!!!!

    sound incredible but that is my case, so i would not worry so much about the possibility to a car break down, the quality insted of the interior are of course much worse


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    993 c2


    Re: Alfa Romeo 4C

    reginos:

    If it was just for effect and attention,  it was not a good idea. Because, it makes the car look non-original and questions automatically arise about the validity of the lap time.

    If OTOH,  there was a degree of substance to the taping, then the car is definitely non-original.

    What were those Italians thinking

    To me, it looks like a factory mule and I'm afraid this is exactly what it is. Or does a stock 4C ride that low? Smiley


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), BMW X3 35d (2013)


    Re: Alfa Romeo 4C

    xander71:

    I guess that nowadays, there is not such a big difference in breaking down from other cars

    we have porsches mercedes and audis and some small fiat , and the only cars that has never let me down in order to call a tow are the fiats!!!!!!

    sound incredible but that is my case, so i would not worry so much about the possibility to a car break down, the quality insted of the interior are of course much worse

    Exactly! All these prejudices have a beard now... We're living in 2013, not in 1983... Bad cars don't exist anymore, at least not in the civilized world.  The only thing that lacks with several brands is the service their dealers give.

    The only cars I see on emergency lanes with the hood open, are French (most), German or Swedish cars.  (No... That's not because the Italian cars already broke down at home....Smiley)  And the "rust"-thing is long behind us... Now all cars have at least a galvanized body, or are made from other materials than steel.

    Actually, the only car that I've had some troubles with, was my current Boxster S (Roof was stuck and wouldn't close anymore). Never had an issue with any other car ever, not with Alfa, not wit Audi, not with Fiat, not with BMW... 


    --

    Suzy

     


    Re: Alfa Romeo 4C

    The worst car I had was a Mercedes ML, coming from a supposedly celebrated brand. The list of parts that failed (some repeatedly) is very long to mention. It was neither reliable nor nice to drive. A true lemon with the Stern in front.

     


    --

    "Form follows function"


    Re: Alfa Romeo 4C

    reginos:

    The worst car I had was a Mercedes ML, coming from a supposedly celebrated brand. The list of parts that failed (some repeatedly) is very long to mention. It was neither reliable nor nice to drive. A true lemon with the Stern in front.

     


    --

    "Form follows function"

    Had a ML 55 AMG (first of its kind) and loved it. No issues at all with that car and it was so much fun to drive (for a SUV at that time). Next SUV was a Porsche Cayenne Turbo though. Smiley


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), BMW X3 35d (2013)


    Re: Alfa Romeo 4C

    On mine the windows were replaced 3 or 4 times, lots of sensors and some control units, the steering column, the brake booster, the a/c compressor  damaging also the a/c radiators and  many more. It was a big liability but it was good on the snow (there is snow at 2000meters) and at towing a ski boat I had.

    Back to the Alfa 4C, the more I study it the more I like it. IMO the climate control is an omission (to save the weight of a control unit and some small motors?)  and the absence of a good assisted steering system too.

    However, unless you have one of everything this car doesn't fit into most people's car plans. It is perhaps a third car, unless you do away with the Porsche, drive an Audi and buy the 4C for days of fun. To have a Porsche and a 4C would have been superfluous. My 4C would be Basalt Grey with black leather and red brake calipers! Rosso Alfa is also a classic colour.

     

     


    --

    "Form follows function"


    Re: Alfa Romeo 4C

    SuzyF:
     

    Exactly! All these prejudices have a beard now... We're living in 2013, not in 1983... Bad cars don't exist anymore, at least not in the civilized world.  The only thing that lacks with several brands is the service their dealers give.

    The only cars I see on emergency lanes with the hood open, are French (most), German or Swedish cars.  (No... That's not because the Italian cars already broke down at home....Smiley)  And the "rust"-thing is long behind us... Now all cars have at least a galvanized body, or are made from other materials than steel.

    Actually, the only car that I've had some troubles with, was my current Boxster S (Roof was stuck and wouldn't close anymore). Never had an issue with any other car ever, not with Alfa, not wit Audi, not with Fiat, not with BMW... 

    I'd agree that cars are generally far more reliable but would suggest you have been fortunate. I've had

    • a turbo disintegrate on an E60 5 series diesel and the vanes get sucked into the engine destroying it in the process. That left me stranded at the roadside.
    • a fuel pump fail in a Cayenne again stranding me at the roadside.
    • an ECU failure on a Gallardo that shut down one bank of cylinders but was able to drive it the 20 miles or so to get home in the reduced power "limp mode".
    • a roof failure on a 430 spider caused by a sensor switch. At least that happened on a dry day Smiley
    • IMS failure on a Boxster leaving a nice puddle of oil on the garage floor.

    Be under no illusions. Mechanical things can and will break from time to time otherwise you wouldn't see any cars in dealerships on hoists with engines or gearboxes removed. We just get so used to reliability these days that it is a shock when they do break down. The biggest frustration when things do break down is that roadside assistance inevitably means a flatbed ride to a dealer as there is very little most breakdown mechanics can now do with a car unless it is a puncture or you've run out of fuel. Once you get to a dealer you realise how heavily they now rely upon plug in diagnostic tools and that the old fashioned mechanics skills are a dying art. Most dealership technicians are now only trained to remove and replace parts as opposed to diagnosing faults and actually repairing things. The final thing you'll be hit by is that next to no parts other than routine service items are held in stock at a local or even national level and that supply chains are now so tightly controlled that parts are held in one central warehouse and have to be couriered to the dealer. If a part is either incorrectly ordered by the dealer or miss-picked at the warehouse then you are in for an even longer wait to get the problem resolved. I am currently in this situation with a relatively straightforward fault on my Cayman R Smiley

     


    Re: Alfa Romeo 4C

    What is the waiting period in the UK for a Porsche part that is not locally avaiilable and has to obtained from Germany?


    --

    "Form follows function"


    Re: Alfa Romeo 4C

    That all depends if the part is actually in stock in Germany. Under normal circumstances they should be able to deliver next day on a priority service. They apparently have it at my dealer now so my issue will be resolved although it has been a significant inconvenience.


    Re: Alfa Romeo 4C

    The only car that has broken down on me in the last 20 years was my last Boxster (IMS).  All 3 of my 986/987 have needed new stereo head units.  The Lotus needed many adjustments, minor fixes and a new rear window (implosion!).  The Ferrari had lots go (expensively) wrong but never actually broke down. 


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    Gen II Cayman S


    Re: Alfa Romeo 4C

    The IMS fiasco was a dark page in Porsche's history. That they got away with it lightly, says a lot for the loyalty of Porsche friends and the brand's strength in the worldwide market. We must admit that they handled many out of warranty cases with an open mind.

    They should be very careful not to repeat a similar mistake, as they are still  "on probation".


    --

    "Form follows function"


     
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