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    Re: 997 Turbo Supertest and my thoughts

    Quote:
    mumbasic said:
    I don't agree 100% with you. The 997 tt has not only a oversteer problem it has an understeer and oversteer problem. Everyone who has tested the car has realized this behaviour. All Porsche including Gt3 have understeer. But the 997 tt, due to controlled AWD, starts first with understeer and then changes to oversteer.



    If I would expect from people to 100% agree with me, I would run a Blog site, not a discussion forum.

    My 997 Turbo didn't show any understeer with the Pilot Sport 2 tires, believe it or not. I testdrove a manual 997 Turbo which had some understeer but still not something worth mentioning. Very important is how you drive the car and how you adapt to the AWD characteristics. The 997 Turbo is different than the 996 Turbo and it is even more different than the 997 Carrera 4S to which you were used. With the new Sport Cup tires, the understeer is heavy but ONLY when the tires are cold. The worst part is the oversteer. The understeer/oversteer situation develops only if you didn't adapt your driving behaviour to the AWD setup. It is difficult to explain but you can drive the 997 Turbo much more relaxed if you know how the car reacts in certain situations. I'm pretty sure that if Horst v. Saurma had more time with the 997 Turbo, he would have achieved a much better Nordschleifen time. Some race car drivers tend to "throw" cars into a curve but this is something the 997 Turbo doesn't like at all. The 997 Turbo loves "harmony", meaning that the transfer from braking to steering in to steering to the other direction, etc. at and from high speeds needs to go VERY smoothly. Like I said, it is difficult to explain, you'll understand better if you own and drive your 997 Turbo for a while. Especially with Tiptronic, you can get a very smooth transfer, so there won't be the problems Horst v. Saurma mentioned but it is difficult to compare my experience with the one of Sport Auto because I drive most of the time with PSM turned on (Sport Chrono ACTIVE) for safety reasons.

    With the Sport Cup tires, the situation is actually a little bit worse: I have fantastic grip now after the tires warm up, there is not much understeer but heavy oversteer if I'm not careful with the throttle. The safety margin is also a bit thinner but you can definetely achieve higher speeds through twists and turns at speeds under 100 kph. At higher speeds, I'm still a little bit cautious since the tires are new and my experience with them has been too short.

    I know that it is hard to believe what I say but sometimes you just need to trust me.

    Re: 997 Turbo Supertest and my thoughts

    You know, you can create understeer in virtually every car on the planet

    Re: 997 Turbo Supertest and my thoughts

    Quote:
    MKSGR said:
    You know, you can create understeer in virtually every car on the planet



    True.

    Re: 997 Turbo Supertest and my thoughts

    My wife drives a 997 C2S Cab and I ws about to take delivery of a 997TT when I test drove and bought a CL 550 that I added a Brabus exhaust to. The Cl is totally awesome!

    It is true that the the Cl is not a true sports car but how may TT owners really want, ever use, or need that level of perfomance.

    I found the entire process of ordering the TT very unpleasant. There are simple too may minor options that should be contained in a few style packages.

    In addition the dashboard layout is dtaed in every regard.

    SORRY.

    Re: 997 Turbo Supertest and my thoughts

    Quote:
    RC said:
    Quote:
    nberry said:
    Excellent and objective analysis. Does anyone know what time Walter Roerhl was able to extract from the 997TT on the Ring?

    BTW, I need to remind you that Saurma may have problems with the 997TT but he is worse in a Ferrari. A couple of years ago I stated that is why he never has good times on the Ring in a Ferrari. He really doesn't know how to drive them. Just add the 997TT to the list.



    Nick, it shows that you're a lawyer. I don't know if my English is that bad but I never said that Horst v. Saurma is a bad driver. I just said that he had problems with the 997 Turbo "setup" (PASM, AWD, tires, whatever) and that I back up his experience. Don't try to read something else from my post.

    I didn't say a word about Ferrari, I claimed that Porsche has chosen, in my personal opinion, a bad AWD setup for the 997 Turbo for whatever weird reasons. This doesn't mean that I don't like the 997 Turbo and this doesn't mean that I would buy a F430 instead. Just for the book.



    Christian I NEVER said Von Saurma is a bad driver. I was agreeing with you and with what he had to say. He had difficulty driving the 997TT for a variety of reasons. This is despite his intimate knowledge of Porsches and Porsche Turbo.

    I just took the anaylsis one step further by indicating he probably doesn't know how to drive Ferrari's given his poor performance with Ferrari's (of course it could never be the car ). My remarks were in line with your analysis.

    Re: 997 Turbo Supertest and my thoughts

    I have a question if you don't mind. My father has a 997tt manual with lsd arriving at the dealership in the next few days. He was considering the 996 for a while but the 997 seemed improved as to make it worth it. I understand the 997tt is still a great car but we may even track this car a little. Should he not take the car and rather opt for a 996? Does anyone know of any suspension upgrades that we might be able to go for in the future to fix these oversteer and understeer problems that you guys have been talking about. Should he even opt for a C4S instead, is that a more balanced car? I'm also worried the 997tts value is gonna take a hit after this.....

    Another question I have is would you consider the 997tts roadholding to still be good? Is its problem the amount of grip, or the way it loses its grip, I hope you understand what i mean. Also RC, you mention it not being good at tight corners, is this because it doesn't have enough grip or something? I'm having trouble fully understanding all of this.

    Thanks for the write up, its been very helpful
    dsts6

    Re: 997 Turbo Supertest and my thoughts

    Quote:
    dsts6 said:
    I have a question if you don't mind. My father has a 997tt manual with lsd arriving at the dealership in the next few days. He was considering the 996 for a while but the 997 seemed improved as to make it worth it. I understand the 997tt is still a great car but we may even track this car a little. Should he not take the car and rather opt for a 996? Does anyone know of any suspension upgrades that we might be able to go for in the future to fix these oversteer and understeer problems that you guys have been talking about.



    dsts6



    The 997 suspension cannot be easily upgraded because of PASM.

    It is, however, very easy to upgrade the 996TT suspension. I did this on my X50 with H&R coilovers and sways. My car was neutral and predictable at the limit on the Ring. And it could drive around most GT3s with ease.

    If you want a fast track turbo get a 996 Turbo S or X50 and upgrade the suspension and HP. It will be quicker than a 997 TT and cost less.

    If you are serious about tracking get a 996 GT2 or 997 GT3. All turbos are too heavy for prolonged track use.

    Re: 997 Turbo Supertest and my thoughts

    Quote:
    dsts6 said:
    Also RC, you mention it not being good at tight corners, is this because it doesn't have enough grip or something? I'm having trouble fully understanding all of this.




    RC's turbo has the automatic transmission with an open rear differential (ie., no axel-differential lock). When one of the rear wheels starts to slip during a tight turn, the traction control system will brake the slipping wheel to transer power to the gripping wheel. It may also cut the power (most TC systems do, but I have no first hand experience with the 997 turbo with AT). When the TC system brakes the slipping wheel and/or cuts the power the driver experiences a sudden loss of control. Once you've experienced that a few times you will never buy a sports car with traction control and an open rear differential! The manual transmission with axel differential lock should not have this problem. Or so the theory goes...

    Re: 997 Turbo Supertest and my thoughts

    Quote:
    hatchback said:
    Quote:
    dsts6 said:
    Also RC, you mention it not being good at tight corners, is this because it doesn't have enough grip or something? I'm having trouble fully understanding all of this.




    RC's turbo has the automatic transmission with an open rear differential (ie., no axel-differential lock). When one of the rear wheels starts to slip during a tight turn, the traction control system will brake the slipping wheel to transer power to the gripping wheel. It may also cut the power (most TC systems do, but I have no first hand experience with the 997 turbo with AT). When the TC system brakes the slipping wheel and/or cuts the power the driver experiences a sudden loss of control. Once you've experienced that a few times you will never buy a sports car with traction control and an open rear differential! The manual transmission with axel differential lock should not have this problem. Or so the theory goes...



    His old 996TT also didn't have a rear LSD. It's the PTM setup that is the culprit.

    Re: 997 Turbo Supertest and my thoughts

    Interesting point re. lack of LSD and presence of tiptronic in RC's car. I wonder if RC has driven a manual TT and felt the same "problem" at high speed.

    Quote:
    hatchback said:
    Quote:
    dsts6 said:
    Also RC, you mention it not being good at tight corners, is this because it doesn't have enough grip or something? I'm having trouble fully understanding all of this.




    RC's turbo has the automatic transmission with an open rear differential (ie., no axel-differential lock). When one of the rear wheels starts to slip during a tight turn, the traction control system will brake the slipping wheel to transer power to the gripping wheel. It may also cut the power (most TC systems do, but I have no first hand experience with the 997 turbo with AT). When the TC system brakes the slipping wheel and/or cuts the power the driver experiences a sudden loss of control. Once you've experienced that a few times you will never buy a sports car with traction control and an open rear differential! The manual transmission with axel differential lock should not have this problem. Or so the theory goes...


    Re: 997 Turbo Supertest and my thoughts

    Quote:
    KresoF1 said:
    Quote:
    VKSF said:


    I truly do no understand some of your remarks...

    Mercedes S/CL63 models... These cars are luxury sofas IMHO! Come on! CL63 is way slower then M6 on the road and specially on the track. Your beloved CL63 can not come close to 997 turbo at any possible situation. Even if you add 030 Package to CL63 it is still big,heavy coupe with nice engine. CL63 weights around 2000kg's according to some German mags.

    599 is on the other hand pretty nice sports GT and even this car is not faster on the track then current Gallardo according to Britsh EVO mag. In fact it achived almost the same time as 997 turbo with help of Ferrari factory crew!

    You love 599 and are true MERCEDESEIN addict so, your comment are in that fashion...

    IMHO there is NO compare between CL63(or any AMG 63 model) and 997 turbo(manual with LSD or TIP)-997 turbo is a true sportscar and CL63 is a big coupe for eldery people...



    Well said.

    VKSF - You have some harsh words for Porsche and its turbo but then go on to use the 599 as an example of what Ferrari can do. Yes, but it costs about 3 times as much.

    RC - Haven't most Porsches, with their rear weight bias been unique to drive due to this initial understeer and then oversteer issue?

    Unfortunately, reviewers consistently prefer Porsche's 2 wheel drive variants. IMO, Porsche will build what sells ($$$), not what is faster around the Ring.

    For those losing sleep over this "Ring" issue, I pulled some times from EVO's Bedford Autodrome "West Circuit". I know , for many of you only Sport Auto really counts, but nevertheless, this should ease the pain . Here are a few relevant times:

    1. 1.22.80 Gallardo SE
    2. 1.23.55 997tt
    3. 1.23.85 997?GT3 RS
    4. 1.24.20 F430 (sorry Nick)
    5. 1.24.45 Z06
    6. 1.24.60 997S Sport
    7. 1.25.95 612 Scaglietti (sorry VKSF - fastest 4-dr F)
    8. 1.26.00 996tt
    9. 1.26.40 M6
    10. 1.26.75 AM Vantage
    11. 1.30.05 SL55 AMG (again, sorry VKSF)

    Turbo owners, sleep tight and enjoy.

    Re: 997 Turbo Supertest and my thoughts

    mp,

    little correction...

    997GT3 1.23,10 Michelin Cup NO
    997tt 1.23,55 Michelin Pilot Sport N1(manual;LSD)
    599GTB 1.23,10 Pirelli P Zero Hero 20"(fronts and rears)

    Re: 997 Turbo Supertest and my thoughts

    Quote:
    hatchback said:
    The manual transmission with axel differential lock should not have this problem. Or so the theory goes...



    Well, in theory... The manual has traction issues too and this does indeed have to do with the AWD setup. Don't forget that we're talking about almost 700 Nm here with overboost. At a pretty low rev figure. Only pro drivers profit from the LSD on the track, amateur drivers profit more from keeping both hands at the steering wheel in a tight curve.

    Re: 997 Turbo Supertest and my thoughts

    Christian,

    Is it me or lately(from 2006 at least) is Anja Wassertheurer faster in Hockenheim then good old Horst?

    When she tested Cayman S she achived better time then Horst in Supertest... She also achived 1.13,7min with 997CS(X51,PCCB,-20/LSD)...

    I just noticed that she was also faster in Audi TT 2.0TFSI then Horst in the same car in Supertest...

    I am just wondering-is Horst becoming to old?(Just kidding here-I respect him a lot!)

    BTW, PTM-we could name it Porsche Traction Misery...

    Re: 997 Turbo Supertest and my thoughts

    Here is a video of a 911 Tiptronic being driven hard on a twisty road, Drift king also tests the AM V8 and the BMW M6 so you can compare the differencies in handling between the Porsche and the two RWD cars:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TWXu9SZesrU

    Re: 997 Turbo Supertest and my thoughts

    Quote:
    gangajas said:
    Here is a video of a 911 Tiptronic being driven hard on a twisty road, Drift king also tests the AM V8 and the BMW M6 so you can compare the differencies in handling between the Porsche and the two RWD cars:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TWXu9SZesrU



    First, you can clearly see the advantage of being able to keep both hands at the steering wheel.
    BUT: maybe I'm wrong but I get the feeling from the videos that the driver also had some difficulties with the 997 Turbo and that he was much more into both 2WD cars, especially the Aston Martin. The excessive torque of the 997 Turbo makes it pretty difficult to control this car at the limit when PSM is turned off. Look at the driver's throttle foot, how he is "pumping", to realize that there is too much torque (and power) to handle. I still think that Porsche could have "covered" this by changing the AWD distribution (maybe 10-15% more power to the front axle) but like I said, I'm not engineer. I also can't see much understeer from the video, I can see it more with the M6.

    Re: 997 Turbo Supertest and my thoughts

    Apologise to hijack thread, i want to ask a silly question. Which car is hard to drive on track and show difficulties to driver?

    a turbo engined car , or a N/A car? Just the cars in similar power range. both has same tranny

    Re: 997 Turbo Supertest and my thoughts

    Quote:
    RC said:
    Quote:
    hatchback said:
    The manual transmission with axel differential lock should not have this problem. Or so the theory goes...



    Well, in theory... The manual has traction issues too and this does indeed have to do with the AWD setup. Don't forget that we're talking about almost 700 Nm here with overboost. At a pretty low rev figure. Only pro drivers profit from the LSD on the track, amateur drivers profit more from keeping both hands at the steering wheel in a tight curve.



    I am really looking forward to my turbo's arrival to understand first-hand what is really going on...

    P.S. Who shifts in the middle of a tight curve? That's a receipe for disaster b/c it is very easy to upset the balance of the car.

    Re: 997 Turbo Supertest and my thoughts

    Quote:
    RC said:
    Quote:
    gangajas said:
    Here is a video of a 911 Tiptronic being driven hard on a twisty road, Drift king also tests the AM V8 and the BMW M6 so you can compare the differencies in handling between the Porsche and the two RWD cars:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TWXu9SZesrU



    First, you can clearly see the advantage of being able to keep both hands at the steering wheel.
    BUT: maybe I'm wrong but I get the feeling from the videos that the driver also had some difficulties with the 997 Turbo and that he was much more into both 2WD cars, especially the Aston Martin. The excessive torque of the 997 Turbo makes it pretty difficult to control this car at the limit when PSM is turned off. Look at the driver's throttle foot, how he is "pumping", to realize that there is too much torque (and power) to handle. I still think that Porsche could have "covered" this by changing the AWD distribution (maybe 10-15% more power to the front axle) but like I said, I'm not engineer. I also can't see much understeer from the video, I can see it more with the M6.



    A few observations about the turbo:
    1. Tip was in manual mode
    2. He seemed to be "very" busy with the steering
    3. IMO, he was traveling faster in the Turbo.

    IMO, compared to a NA car, where the power curve is more progressive, when the turbo's boost hits its stride it can be fairly violent (and exhilarating), somewhat similar to a 2-stroke motorcycle, except it starts at much lower rpm. We are talking about an enormous amount of torque at low rpm which hits fairly rapidly, making it even trickier to balance.

    Re: 997 Turbo Supertest and my thoughts

    The Gunsai Touge is a 6 km course, here are some times:

    NSX-R NA2: 3:18.42

    Subaru Impreza STI Spec C: 3:23.56

    Porsche 911 Turbo: 3:24.63

    BMW M6: 3:28.58

    Honda S2000: 3:28.72

    Ferrari F430: 3:31.21

    Here is the video of the F430 run, as you can see it is much more demanding than the 911 Turbo:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j7rEFxUxxpU

    Re: 997 Turbo Supertest and my thoughts

    S2000 vs Ferrari 430.

    I love these Japan tests, even a Honda Civic will outlap a BMW M3CSL with a high chance

    Re: 997 Turbo Supertest and my thoughts

    RC,

    Looked like the driver could push the AM and M6 to their limits fairly easily, but not as much with the TT. Appeared as if the TT was almost overpowered for such a tight track.

    Re: 997 Turbo Supertest and my thoughts

    Quote:
    VGA18 said:
    S2000 vs Ferrari 430.

    I love these Japan tests, even a Honda Civic will outlap a BMW M3CSL with a high chance



    The thing is that he has driven the S2000, the NSX or the Impreza a million times and the European cars only once, so when he drives the Europeans cars he has to play with the limits of adhesion to know how those cars react.

    Re: 997 Turbo Supertest and my thoughts

    Isn't the shinning new PTM supposed to make its way the the non turbo 997?

     
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