Rennteam 2.0 - EN - Forum - Spine-tingling Downshifting Six - Speed Manual Style! - Page1

Feb 23, 2005 8:38:00 AM

MAVERICK: Veteran; Loc: Cincinnati, OH (USA) , United States; Posts: 1145, Gallery; Registered on: May 31, 2004

Spine-tingling Downshifting Six - Speed Manual Style!

I spotted this video clip of a GT3 RS race car during qualifying at Sebring International Raceway on 6speedonline.com a few days ago and one of the members said the video was originally posted by the driver on Rennlist.com:

http://gscdownloads.com/leh/sebring/GT3RSatSebring.wmv

This is the fastest upshifting and single-clutch, sequential, manual downshifting I've ever seen partly because this is a professional driver (I don't know his name), I believe, and partly because the GT3RS race car allows him the opportunity to do so.

I have the following questions for you Porsche enthusiasts:

1) What technical specifications does the GT3 RS race car possess which allows its driver to perform these beautiful, breakneck, sequential downshifts from 6th gear to 1st?

2) Does the GT3 Cup race car have these same specifications?

3) Do the following street-cars have these same specifications: GT3, GT3 RS, CGT? If not, what can be done to bring them up to spec?

4) Does the GT3 RS race car lack a short shifter because the throws appear long in the video but don't seem to hamper the amazing downshifting speed?

My thanks in advance.

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Feb 23, 2005 12:00:27 PM

Dr. Phil: Rennteam Master; Loc: Denmark , Denmark; Posts: 5864, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 30, 2004; Reply to: MAVERICK

Re: Spine-tingling Downshifting Six - Speed Manual Style!

Jees! That driving looks pretty fast. Thanks for the link

I dont think the shifting looks that fast, at least not compared to rallycars and other RS cars. But youre right, that the shifting itself looks smoth and quick.

I'm no expert on this at all, but with a sequential shifter like this, would a shorter shifter be relevant at all? I mean, the gearbox still needs some time to react, clutch and shift...so making the stick shorter still, would mean that the clutch would have to be even faster - and maybe theres a limit to how fast technology allows it to be?

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Feb 23, 2005 3:20:23 PM

teflon: Co-Pilot; Loc: US , United States; Posts: 216, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 13, 2003; Reply to: Dr. Phil

Re: Spine-tingling Downshifting Six - Speed Manual Style!

His name is Leh Keen.

The simple answer is that you're looking at a race car w/a racing trans that is frequently serviced and what you've seen doesn't easily translate into street car use.

So that there is no confusion on this issue, the gearbox in the car is not a sequential.

Greg A

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Feb 23, 2005 3:49:11 PM

Carlos from Spain: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Spain. , Spain; Posts: 20820, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 9, 2003; Reply to: MAVERICK

Re: Spine-tingling Downshifting Six - Speed Manual Style!

If you guys look at his left foot, he is using a clutch. Maybe the shift part of the trans is electrohydraulicly operated (you select the gears through the shiftnob like on the nob of a SMG or paddles, but you don't insert them yourself with then nob therefore the shift is much quicker since done by the car, not manually) but still with a normal clucth you have to engage yourself before selecting a gear instead of the car also operating the clutch as well... or its not a semi-sequential w/ clutch at all but those are seriously fast gear select speed in downshifting for a fully manual trans... its like a sportbike's tranny

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Feb 23, 2005 4:01:09 PM

NeverLift: Newbie; Loc:; Posts: 47, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 30, 2003; Reply to: Carlos from Spain

Re: Spine-tingling Downshifting Six - Speed Manual Style!

Watch on Speed channel the Sebring race coming up. You want to see fast shifts? Watch the on board for the Alex Job team. They have the factory sequential gear box and their cars are the fastest in the class with the top drivers.

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Feb 23, 2005 4:17:30 PM

Carlos from Spain: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Spain. , Spain; Posts: 20820, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 9, 2003; Reply to: NeverLift

Re: Spine-tingling Downshifting Six - Speed Manual Style!

Speed channel... would love to but no-can-see here

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Feb 23, 2005 4:39:35 PM

teflon: Co-Pilot; Loc: US , United States; Posts: 216, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 13, 2003; Reply to: Carlos from Spain

Re: Spine-tingling Downshifting Six - Speed Manual Style!

Carlos,

It is a standard GT3RS 6 speed manual trans. He is using the clutch to up/downshift. He is just really fast.

Greg A

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Feb 23, 2005 6:09:04 PM

tso: Senior; Loc: Denmark , United Arab Emirates; Posts: 710, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 20, 2004; Reply to: teflon

Re: Spine-tingling Downshifting Six - Speed Manual Style!

If you want to see something that is for sure a sequential have a look at www.watt.dk/default.aspx?id=45 choose the second video from 2004. You can almost hear that the engine shots out when changing up through the gears. The downshifts are not as noticeable.
The guy driving is paraplegic, meaning that he drives with his hands only - stearing, gearchanges, braking and accelerating. He is a former formula 3000 driver, believe overall 2nd in the 1999 season in Europe.

For those who has an interest there is a video link under "diverse" where you can see his "Kleemann E55K"...fast stuff, drove it once in Denmark.

/thomas

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Feb 23, 2005 6:19:53 PM

nberry: Rennteam VIP; Loc: La Jolla, USA , United States; Posts: 13626, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 11, 2002; Reply to: NeverLift

Re: Spine-tingling Downshifting Six - Speed Manual Style!

Quote:
NeverLift said:
Watch on Speed channel the Sebring race coming up. You want to see fast shifts? Watch the on board for the Alex Job team. They have the factory sequential gear box and their cars are the fastest in the class with the top drivers.

As I have written numerous times, once Porsche introduces the sequential gear box with paddles only those individuals who want "total involvement" and slow times will be sticking with manual. The car will be delivered marked DINOSAUR.

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Feb 23, 2005 6:21:47 PM

Carlos from Spain: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Spain. , Spain; Posts: 20820, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 9, 2003; Reply to: teflon

Re: Spine-tingling Downshifting Six - Speed Manual Style!

Quote:
teflon said:
Carlos,

It is a standard GT3RS 6 speed manual trans. He is using the clutch to up/downshift. He is just really fast.

Greg A

Thanks Greg, fast indeed then!

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Feb 23, 2005 7:05:25 PM

MAVERICK: Veteran; Loc: Cincinnati, OH (USA) , United States; Posts: 1145, Gallery; Registered on: May 31, 2004; Reply to: Dr. Phil

Re: Spine-tingling Downshifting Six - Speed Manual Style!

Quote:
Dr. Phil said:
I'm no expert on this at all, but with a sequential shifter like this,

I should have been clearer. Everybody, this gearbox is NOT A SEQUENTIAL. It is a MANUAL.

The reason I used the word "sequential" was because he was downshifting from higher to lower gears in a sequential manner without skipping gears which is an option on a manual gearbox.

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Feb 23, 2005 7:15:10 PM

MAVERICK: Veteran; Loc: Cincinnati, OH (USA) , United States; Posts: 1145, Gallery; Registered on: May 31, 2004; Reply to: teflon

Re: Spine-tingling Downshifting Six - Speed Manual Style!

Quote:
teflon said:
His name is Leh Keen.

The simple answer is that you're looking at a race car w/a racing trans that is frequently serviced and what you've seen doesn't easily translate into street car use.

Greg A

teflon,

Exactly what my brother said.

How frequently does it have to be serviced? And what kind of service is needed?

Is there any street car out there that can be lightly modified to have at least 1/2 or 3/4 the downshifting ability of the GT3 RS race car and still be practical on the street?

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Feb 23, 2005 9:05:25 PM

fritz: Rennteam VIP; Loc: BaWü , Germany; Posts: 10248, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 23, 2003; Reply to: MAVERICK

Re: Spine-tingling Downshifting Six - Speed Manual Style!

This'll be an unsychronised ("dog-clutch") racing transmission with the single-plane shift instead of a conventinal H-pattern gate. This means you can only shift gears sequentially (= one gear at a time). The shift is non-assisted, and the driver has to be able match engine speed to road speed to be able to engage gears smoothly, explaining why this type of transmission used to be called a "crash box".

Life-time between strip-downs will depend a lot on the driver, just like road cars! I remember hearing that the 911 racing engines are overhauled after about 30 hours track us, and would guess that transmissions would also be overhauled at the same time.

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Feb 23, 2005 10:22:47 PM

MAVERICK: Veteran; Loc: Cincinnati, OH (USA) , United States; Posts: 1145, Gallery; Registered on: May 31, 2004; Reply to: fritz

Re: Spine-tingling Downshifting Six - Speed Manual Style!

Quote:
fritz said:
This'll be an unsychronised ("dog-clutch") racing transmission

fritz,

I was under the impression that unsynchronized racing transmissions require double clutching when downshifting. Am I mistaken? In the video, 21-year-old Leh Keen, the driver, is definitely single clutching when he downshifts.

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Feb 23, 2005 11:06:17 PM

Moogle: Rennteam Master; Loc: Bay Area , United States; Posts: 5019, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 9, 2003; Reply to: MAVERICK

Re: Spine-tingling Downshifting Six - Speed Manual Style!

dont feel bad about not getting speed channel, 70% of the programming is NASCAR anyway.

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Feb 24, 2005 5:57:06 AM

TopherV: Veteran; Loc: Orange County, Southern California; Posts: 1121, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 29, 2003; Reply to: Moogle

Re: Spine-tingling Downshifting Six - Speed Manual Style!

Is the bucket supposed to be moving that much???

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Feb 24, 2005 2:29:26 PM

Michael Russell: Junior; Loc:; Posts: 109, Gallery; Registered on: Aug 26, 2003; Reply to: TopherV

Re: Spine-tingling Downshifting Six - Speed Manual Style!

The other important point here is that the flywheel on the end of the crankshaft is incredibly light, (along with all the internals of the motor itself) which allows for the incredibly quick "blip", which is far more lnaguid in a conventional street car.

Michael

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Feb 24, 2005 7:17:10 PM

teflon: Co-Pilot; Loc: US , United States; Posts: 216, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 13, 2003; Reply to: MAVERICK

Re: Spine-tingling Downshifting Six - Speed Manual Style!

Quote:
MAVERICK said:
teflon,

Exactly what my brother said.

How frequently does it have to be serviced? And what kind of service is needed?

Is there any street car out there that can be lightly modified to have at least 1/2 or 3/4 the downshifting ability of the GT3 RS race car and still be practical on the street?

Maverick,

Unfortunately, your questions have exceeded my knowledge base. However, I do have a suggestion for you since you're in Cinci. Try contacting John Wright Tuning and asking them. John has extensive experience with the GT3RS and could provide you with a practical answer.

Greg A

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Feb 24, 2005 7:28:39 PM

fritz: Rennteam VIP; Loc: BaWü , Germany; Posts: 10248, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 23, 2003; Reply to: MAVERICK

Re: Spine-tingling Downshifting Six - Speed Manual Style!

Quote:
MAVERICK said:
Quote:
fritz said:
This'll be an unsychronised ("dog-clutch") racing transmission

fritz,

I was under the impression that unsynchronized racing transmissions require double clutching when downshifting. Am I mistaken? In the video, 21-year-old Leh Keen, the driver, is definitely single clutching when he downshifts.

CORRECTION! I just watched the video clip.

This appears be an "old" GT3 RSR (pre 2003???), as it has a conventional H-gate, not the current sequential shift as suggested by some of the previous posts in this thread.
You can see the driver's hand moving diagonally across shift gate on some gearchanges, and the lever does not return to central position after each shift, as the sequential box's shift lever would!

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Feb 25, 2005 7:37:22 AM

Norman Perkel: Newbie; Loc: New York, USA; Posts: 12, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 24, 2005; Reply to: Carlos from Spain

Re: Spine-tingling Downshifting Six - Speed Manual Style!

Thank you for the great link... Great video!

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Feb 25, 2005 4:58:28 PM

Norman Perkel: Newbie; Loc: New York, USA; Posts: 12, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 24, 2005; Reply to: Norman Perkel

Re: Spine-tingling Downshifting Six - Speed Manual Style!

On the sequential note... From what I have heard a sqeuential system is nothing to take likely as when you have problems you are not breaking inexpensive compenents but rather engine related items. I am not sure if this is correct or not can anyone elaborate on what I have heard?

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Feb 25, 2005 9:03:00 PM

teflon: Co-Pilot; Loc: US , United States; Posts: 216, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 13, 2003; Reply to: fritz

Re: Spine-tingling Downshifting Six - Speed Manual Style!

Quote:
fritz said:
CORRECTION! I just watched the video clip. This appears be an "old" GT3 RSR (pre 2003???), as it has a conventional H-gate, not the current sequential shift as suggested by some of the previous posts in this thread...

fritz,

It is a GT3 RS(The RSR didn't exist before '04).

I have already said at least twice in this thread, and Maverick has also at least twice that the gearbox in the car is a *traditional 6 speed box*.

Greg A

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Feb 25, 2005 9:53:09 PM

fritz: Rennteam VIP; Loc: BaWü , Germany; Posts: 10248, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 23, 2003; Reply to: teflon

Re: Spine-tingling Downshifting Six - Speed Manual Style!

Quote:
teflon said:
Quote:
fritz said:
CORRECTION! I just watched the video clip. This appears be an "old" GT3 RSR (pre 2003???), as it has a conventional H-gate, not the current sequential shift as suggested by some of the previous posts in this thread...

fritz,

It is a GT3 RS(The RSR didn't exist before '04).

I have already said at least twice in this thread, and Maverick has also at least twice that the gearbox in the car is a *traditional 6 speed box*.

Greg A

Hi Greg,

In fact, the current 911 GT3 RSR race car still uses the same "traditional 6-speed box" that was used in earlier versions of this car when it was called the "911 GT3 RS". The sequential shift mechanism is just an "add on" to this same basic box, though it did involve making some changes inside the box to integrate the new shift mechanism, as well as needing a new single-plane shift mechanism attached to the shift lever in the cabin, instead of the 4-plane H-pattern gate.

The "correction" referred to the fact that I had initially taken a reference to a "sequential shift" in someone else's post at face value, without yet having looked at the vid sequence.

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Feb 25, 2005 11:31:05 PM

teflon: Co-Pilot; Loc: US , United States; Posts: 216, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 13, 2003; Reply to: fritz

Re: Spine-tingling Downshifting Six - Speed Manual Style!

fritz,

You are correct. I realized I was not clear after reading your post and then re-reading mine. I should have been more specific. It is a traditional H pattern shifter, not a sequential. My apologies.

Greg A

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Feb 26, 2005 3:36:03 AM

MAVERICK: Veteran; Loc: Cincinnati, OH (USA) , United States; Posts: 1145, Gallery; Registered on: May 31, 2004; Reply to: teflon

Re: Spine-tingling Downshifting Six - Speed Manual Style!

Quote:
teflon said:
However, I do have a suggestion for you since you're in Cinci. Try contacting John Wright Tuning and asking them. John has extensive experience with the GT3RS and could provide you with a practical answer.

Thanks, teflon. I will try contacting John next week.

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Mar 3, 2005 10:31:45 PM

Jeannot: Expert; Loc: Currently in Hong-Kong , Switzerland; Posts: 1745, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 13, 2005; Reply to: Carlos from Spain

Re: Spine-tingling Downshifting Six - Speed Manual Style!

Looks like heel and toe at the speed of heel...
Declutch/brake/bleep the throttle all at the same time and down several gears ! He is really just unbelieveable !!!

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Mar 3, 2005 11:42:01 PM

ADias: Rennteam Pro; Loc: Southwest USA , United States; Posts: 2495, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 9, 2004; Reply to: Jeannot

Re: Spine-tingling Downshifting Six - Speed Manual Style!

I don't know about you guys, but I can hear the synchros and the gears grinding. You can do it very fast if your timing is right and you don't even need the clutch (I have done it a long time ago... and not on a P-car

). But... there is wear and tear, and you'll pay for it - and that should be one of the budgeted costs of a track car.

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