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    How do you guys feel about other P Models being introduced?

    I was talking about this with a few P enthusiasts and they were disappointed that Porsche (for example) released the Cayenne. They claim it was a move away from their grass-root heritage and tarnished the name brand somewhat.

    Now with the imminent arrivals of the Cayman and the 4 door Panamera - how do you guys feel about the Porsche (r)evolution?

    Are you upset that they are releasing a different 'series' of cars for a different market - or do you like the new choices on offer.

    Let's also LEAVE OUT the BUSINESS ASPECTS of this topic - i/e increasing profit merely for shareholder value / or the NEED to introduce new models merely to keep the company afloat.

    Re: How do you guys feel about other P Models being introduc

    Porsche lost some brand equity with the Boxters and V6-Cayennes. Those were low-end vehicles that had a negative impact upon the brand and loyal customers.

    The Cayman and Panamera are mid-end vehicles. IMHO, those will not tarnsih the brand given their respective segments.

    What we don't want to see are sub $60k vehicles, as those will irritate customers the most. I don't want to spend $100k on a vehicle and find a kid next to me in a $50k Boxster.

    Re: How do you guys feel about other P Models being introduc

    I definitely agree about the base V6 Cayenne. That vehicle should never have been put into production. Not only does it cheapen the brand with a highly inferior engine - but it even retails for around 45k - which is pennies considering my Turbo cost me well over 100.


    I can see the need (and logic) for introducting the Boxster - but am perplexed as to who the target market is for the Cayman.

    Re: How do you guys feel about other P Models being introduc

    My feeling is that Porsche is trying to acquire "new" customers with the Cayman. There are many people out there that can easily afford 911s that dislike the car because of its dated design. I'm not sure how they'll lure that AMG/M3/S4 crowd because the price seems a bit out of touch with reality.

    Re: How do you guys feel about other P Models being introduc

    Porsche would be purest if it stuck to high end sportscars but sadly it would be difficult for the company to survive like that.

    The Cayenne should never have been made. A sportscar maker who has won Le Mans more times than any other manufacturer has no business cheapening its image by making a 4x4. It's sickening.

    I like the idea of the Boxster. A great driver's car. The fact that it's affordable has meant many new people use it as a stepping stone into the brand. It removes the exclusivity of Porsche which I think is a good thing.

    The Cayman is a flawed concept. A Boxster Coupe which costs more than the convertible. Bizarre. It will eat into some sales of the base 911 Carrera.

    The Panamera sounds good. A luxury sports GT. Like a Bentley Continental GT or an Aston DB9. Great.

    The CGT is at the core of Porsche. I hope they don't stop making cars at the cutting edge of technology.

    Re: How do you guys feel about other P Models being introduc

    Quote:
    easy_rider911 said:
    Porsche would be purest if it stuck to high end sportscars but sadly it would be difficult for the company to survive like that.

    The Cayenne should never have been made. A sportscar maker who has won Le Mans more times than any other manufacturer has no business cheapening its image by making a 4x4. It's sickening.

    I like the idea of the Boxster. A great driver's car. The fact that it's affordable has meant many new people use it as a stepping stone into the brand. It removes the exclusivity of Porsche which I think is a good thing.

    The Cayman is a flawed concept. A Boxster Coupe which costs more than the convertible. Bizarre. It will eat into some sales of the base 911 Carrera.

    The Panamera sounds good. A luxury sports GT. Like a Bentley Continental GT or an Aston DB9. Great.

    The CGT is at the core of Porsche. I hope they don't stop making cars at the cutting edge of technology.




    It's interesting how you dismiss P's arrival into the SUV market, yet welcome the 'entry level' Boxster and 'Family Car' Panamera. Why is that?


    However, I do agree that the Cayman is a flawed concept. It's a car which is targetting an unnecessary niche - almost like a non-existant void which Porsche are trying to fill.


    Imo, this is the ultimate lineup:

    Boxster - entry level sports car. Affordable and still prestigious

    Cayenne - the ultimate performance SUV (S and Turbo models only)

    911 - the ultimate sports car

    Panamera - ultimate luxury sedan

    CGT - for the ultra exclusive




    The Cayman is just not needed.

    Re: How do you guys feel about other P Models being introduc

    mish,

    It's not just the styling of the Cayenne. It's also the concept itself. All the other cars are performance oriented whereas the Cayenne is ugly and it's an SUV. I guess I just hate SUVs.

    But the Panamera is not a family car. Are the Bentley Continental GT, the Aston Martin DB9 or the Ferrari 612 Scaglietti 'family' cars. No, they are performance GTs capable of crossing continents in style and comfort. It's a concept I approve of.

    The Boxster may be entry level in terms of price but it certainly isn't entry level in terms of performance. You get a lot for the money!

    Still, mish, I didn't mean to offend anyone. They were just my own subjective views. Of course you're welcome to disagree!

    Re: How do you guys feel about other P Models being introduc

    BTW. the Panamera is not a sedan or 'saloon' as we say in the UK. It's a 4 door hatchback! The boot lid includes the rear window so it's not a sedan.

    Re: How do you guys feel about other P Models being introduc

    Hi Easy rider, the Conti GT, The Ferrari and the Aston Martin are still only 2 door cars.

    The 4 door Panamera is surely targeting the Maserati Quatraporte, BM 7 Series, Audi A8 and the Merc S class - don't you think? I think Porsche are looking at a $90 - 100k entry level price for the Panamera.

    Also I agree that base Cayenne's are ugly, it's the Turbo that is the beauty of the pack. I changed the aesthetic look even further by putting on the TA kit.

    Re: How do you guys feel about other P Models being introduc

    Well I own both a 997 C2 and a Cayenne V6 so I guess that makes my views clear. I'm glad Porsche makes the Cayenne as it is my daily driver and replaced a BMW E60 530d. I wanted a relaxed, comfortable drive that had a bit of performance when required and could cover the miles effortlessly. The V6 pepper does just that. It is a fantastically well built car and the mods Porsche have made to the basic VW V6 engine have turned it into a very refined but acceptably powerful unit. Everyone who hears it remarks on the great noise the exhaust makes and nearly every comment I have received about the car has been favourable - my car admittedly has a lot of extras on it which tends to make it stand out. With the high fuel prices and company car tax in the UK, an S model was just out of the question for me as I'm not prepared to fork out an additional Pounds3k per annum in tax for the rare occassions I'd be able to use the power difference in real world driving. I have my 997 to provide my speed thrills when I want them. The Cayenne is head and shoulders above any other SUV in terms of handling and Porsche have introduced a new benchmark to this sector. Too many people write the car off based upon it's styling or the fact that a Porsche badge should not adorn a 4x4. To me this is nonsense as Porsche still make sports cars. If I could only have one car in my garage then the Cayenne would be it based upon it's all round abilities and practicality.

    Provided Porsche do not chase after mass volume sales then I think it is a good thing that they are branching out into other market segments. I'm looking forward to the Panamera because if Porsche bring the same sort of handling revolution to that niche of car as they have with the 4x4 sector, then it will be a very special drive indeed.

    Re: How do you guys feel about other P Models being introduc

    Quote:
    Oxonian said:
    Porsche lost some brand equity with the Boxters and V6-Cayennes. Those were low-end vehicles that had a negative impact upon the brand and loyal customers.

    The Cayman and Panamera are mid-end vehicles. IMHO, those will not tarnsih the brand given their respective segments.

    What we don't want to see are sub $60k vehicles, as those will irritate customers the most. I don't want to spend $100k on a vehicle and find a kid next to me in a $50k Boxster.



    What if the kid drives a $70K Boxster S?



    Don't think Porsche lost brand equity with the Boxster at all - it's now synonymous with the Porsche name along with the 911. I think there should only be a Boxster S and no base model. A car starting at 44K dilutes the exclusivity of Porsche. (see below for Cayenne comments)

    The Cayman is a bad move - who would make a coupe more expensive than it's convertible counterpart and compensate by increasing the hp by such a meager amount? The only people buying this are going to be the ones that want a Boxster hardtop that don't like the lines of the car when the hard-top accessory is actually installed - it doesn't look pretty IMO.

    I think the Cayenne base should never have been sold. It is underpowered, ugly and poorly conceived. Sluggish doesn't even begin to describe the performance of the base model. Along with the base Boxster, the base Cayenne is a vehicle for wanna-bes that want that Porsche exclusivity and prestige at Volvo S80 prices.


    Panamera is definitely a good move - as long as they don't price it in the same realm as an S500 or BMW 760...

    The 911 speaks for itself....and well the Carrera GT, I heard that car was okay.

    Re: How do you guys feel about other P Models being introduc

    I'm glad Porsche is increasing their product line up as well.
    As long as they dont make a vehicle that's "to cheap" or affordable.



    As for the Cayman.... I like it and I think it's Porsches way of saying that mid-engined cars might be the future of Porsche. I dont like the fact that it will'might steal the limelight from the 911's though.


    @ easy_rider911 - the Panamera will not compete against the GT's IMO, rather cars like the 7, S, A8 and Especially the Masa Quattroport, like mish said.

    Re: How do you guys feel about other P Models being introduc

    I hear you re: which cars the Panamera might be competing against but the price point will be very different. An S500 costs around Pounds75k in the UK. The Panamera should be over Pounds100k which is about the same territory as the Bentley and DB9.

    Agreed, they are 2 door cars which I accept is a key difference BUT, what kind of person will buy the Panamera. It isn't the boring 55 yr old company director who usually has an S Class. It's more likely the guy who had a 911 before when he was single and when he was married. His kids grew up and his income was good so he graduated up to a Panamera. Basically, he stills wants a really sporty drive but the practicality of a 4 seater cruiser for when he goes on weekend skiing trips, drives across the Alps, weekends on the Cote d'Azur etc..

    Re: How do you guys feel about other P Models being introduc

    Quote:
    easy_rider911 said:
    Agreed, they are 2 door cars which I accept is a key difference BUT, what kind of person will buy the Panamera. It isn't the boring 55 yr old company director who usually has an S Class. It's more likely the guy who had a 911 before when he was single and when he was married. His kids grew up and his income was good so he graduated up to a Panamera. Basically, he stills wants a really sporty drive but the practicality of a 4 seater cruiser for when he goes on weekend skiing trips, drives across the Alps, weekends on the Cote d'Azur etc..




    Re: How do you guys feel about other P Models being introduc

    Admit it. A big reason you bought the 911 was you wanted to be on top of the heap.

    As long as the 911 stays on top nothing Porsche does with regard to expanding the model line bothers me (except of course, the sleazy quads, pointy tail lights and other cheap tricks that appeal to mass market mentality).

    Re: How do you guys feel about other P Models being introduc

    I'm just going to post a few random thoughts here that aren't directed at anyone in particular:

    1-The concept of diluting the brand of Porsche with "unworthy" vehicles like the Boxster, Cayman or Cayenne is just snobbish effrontery. I'm sure CGT owners could justify the same argument about 911 owners diluting the image of Porsche with cars that cost only 25% of $440K. Does there really need to be a $ threshold I have to cross to be a serious Porsche enthusiast? I thought being a good driver that is dedicated to continual self-improvement might be enough...silly me!

    2-Porsche has made a concentrated effort to expand beyond the concept of "Porsche = 911" to "Porsche = the best sport vehicles." There was a time when I too felt that Porsche should only make sportscars, but I have gotten over this narrow-minded view. Frankly, I wish Porsche made a vehicle in every market segment, as long as it was unquestionably the best vehcile you can buy IN THAT SEGMENT. I thoroughly enjoy my 987S, why shouldn't I be able to purchase a vehcile with a similar design philosophy and performance dynamics when I need a 4 person sedan or SUV? To reject those products out of hand is to limit your choices as a consumer to the crap produced by other manufacturers. Anyone who drives a Porsche sportscar would probably be happier driving a Cayenne than a GMC Yukon or Range Rover. Limiting Porsche is bad for Porsche and bad for me; don't be sucked into that fallacy. Porsche must build impeccable vehicles, not remain a niche manufacturer.

    OK, that's all I have time for now, I'll check back later.

    mcdelaug

    Re: How do you guys feel about other P Models being introduc

    Quote:
    mish said:

    Also I agree that base Cayenne's are ugly, it's the Turbo that is the beauty of the pack. I changed the aesthetic look even further by putting on the TA kit.



    Mish, would you mind posting a pic of your Cayenne T? I'm not a big fan of the base models either, but your car sounds intriguing with the TA kit..

    Re: How do you guys feel about other P Models being introduc

    What the heck makes a Turbo Cayenne look different from a standard car?? The only external difference is the nose cone. You need to trick out any Cayenne to make it look better and that means bigger wheels, privacy glass, roof rails etc.. etc. Stock Turbo's hardly look stunning. Here is my "disgraceful" base V6..... look at how ugly it is compared to a turbo...

    Re: How do you guys feel about other P Models being introduc

    It's all good and healthy for the brand and company IMO.

    Re: How do you guys feel about other P Models being introduc

    Quote:
    SrfCity said:
    It's all good and healthy for the brand and company IMO.



    yeah, I agree, but according to original post, we weren't supposed to mention the good business sense it makes.

    It think it's great that Porsche as a company is looking out for the long term and making money while they're at it.

    Re: How do you guys feel about other P Models being introduc

    Those that object to the Boxster need to look back on Porsches heritage. The 356 Speedster was introduced as an entry level model as was the 912 and 912E. Consider the 914 and 924/944 and varients all "real Porsche owners" held their nose up to these models and now several are bringing top dollar. And then there's the 928 a model well ahead of its time but purists would not accept a front engine, no less water cooled.

    I think there's an outside chance that the Cayman may very well be the replacment for the 911 (I know, heresy) with the Panamera being the GT for those who need additional space.

    As far as the Cayenne is concerned it was and is strictly a business decision that may very well fail if petrol prices continue to rise. SUV's are already experiencing plunging sales.

    Re: How do you guys feel about other P Models being introduc

    Quote:
    ISUK said:
    What the heck makes a Turbo Cayenne look different from a standard car?? The only external difference is the nose cone. You need to trick out any Cayenne to make it look better and that means bigger wheels, privacy glass, roof rails etc.. etc. Stock Turbo's hardly look stunning. Here is my "disgraceful" base V6..... look at how ugly it is compared to a turbo...



    ISUK, surely you'd agree that front grill of the Turbo is FAR more appealing than the base or the S model!?

    Greg, sure, here is my TA'ed CT....ok it may not be everyone's cup of tea, but it beats the heck out of a stock Turbo in my book. By the way, these pictures were taken without the TA back bumper attached - this was because someone bumped into me and it needed minor repairs.






    Re: How do you guys feel about other P Models being introduc

    Mish,

    I don't agree as it goes as I think the grilles on the Turbo are over exaggerated. I'd happily settle for the performance of the Turbo though, just not the awful gas mileage

    I'm not a fan of the front of the Cayenne to be honest as I think the designers tried too hard to mimic the 996. Swapping out the standard black grilles for the silver ones made a huge difference IMHO to the front of my car. Porsche certainly know how to charge for these 3 hunks of painted plastic though.... Pounds600 for parts alone ... sheesh!


    Re: How do you guys feel about other P Models being introduc

    I agree on almost everything you said; However, the Cayenne should be put in a far better light. For a SUV this car ( S and CT ) is the most sporty SUV you can get and it handles great for such a big car. And imagine you have family and a you can only choose one car. Would you go for a Carrera? In that regard the Cayenne makes a lot of sense for a lot of people.

    Re: How do you guys feel about other P Models being introduced?

    I think the Cayenne was a good idea, what I don't like is the exterior design (it reminds me of the first 996 version when Porsche had no money and they had to share tons of parts with the Boxster not to go bankrupt).
    I'm still speculating about the reason of the "inconclusive", conservative and somehow ugly design of the Cayenne (especially the Cayenne V6 and V8) but maybe Porsche wasn't willing to risk too much money with a product they didn't know if it is gonna be succesful or not.
    I'm pretty sure that the facelift and especially the second generation of the Cayenne will be a 100% Porsche design, at least worth this name. The Cayenne V6 was a big mistake in my opinion, performance is ridiculous for a Porsche and when I had one as a loaner, I hated it. It felt underpowered, it was somehow satisfactory in the city but thats it. Not even close to provide a certain Porsche feeling. I'm afraid the Cayenne V8 is not much much different but at least you get a feeling of power but still not enough due to the excessive weight of this truck.
    BUT: the Cayenne was a good idea, it found many customers worldwide and I even think that it may have led some of them to the "true" Porsche cars, the sports cars. I can understand people who don't like the Cayenne but trust me if I tell you: the Cayenne Turbo, especially the 500 HP powerkit version with improved braking system, is THE Porsche SUV among other SUVs. But I guess they couldn't have sold the Turbo only...too expensive, WAY TOO expensive.

    I also think that the Panamera is a good idea because people who don't like the Cayenne and can't buy a Porsche sportscar due to family, business, etc., may get an alternative. But Porsche has to be very careful about the design, power and especially the weight. If the Panamera weights more than the Mercedes S-class, its not gonna be a winner. But it may stirr up the luxury car market because I can imagine that a lot of current BMW 7series and Mercedes S-class drivers would prefer to drive a Porsche limousine instead.

    The Cayman is a different story, why should I lie: I don't like the Cayman. Not because it is a bad product, it isn't. But it is somehow a clever marketing trick to offer a Boxster Coupe with a fixed roof and a few horses more for more money, even using the 911's silhouette to attract customers who may find a 911 too expensive. Well, let me tell you something: if somebody buys the Cayman because of that, he'll regret it sooner or later. The Cayman can't replace a 911 and it won't. As soon as the more powerful 911 versions show up, Cayman drivers will be pretty frustrated because there definetely won't be a Cayman with 400 or 500 HP. But if somebody buys the Cayman because he doesn't like the soft top of the Boxster and maybe even loves how the Cayman looks, he gets the hell of a car. The Cayman should be more rigid than the Boxster and in the right hands, it would be a very very fast little sportscar.
    I still don't think there is a market for the Cayman but if Porsche thinks there is, maybe I'm just too dumb to see it.

    The CGT is actually a race car which has been adapted to the street. I'm not sure the CGT is Porsche's technical masterpiece, I still think it was the 959 they built over a decade ago. If Porsche wants to prove they're top of the class regarding sports cars, they should build a 959 successor based on the upcoming 997 Turbo.

    Porsche always has to be careful that new models they introduce are considered to be part of the Porsche family model line. People accepted the Cayenne because it was something new, something they couldn't really compare to other Porsche models. But with the Panamera and especially the Cayman, Porsche has to be very very careful. I still don't think that the Cayman will be a success because I bought a Boxster S for my wife (and I enjoy driving it too) but I would never buy a Cayman. Unless I would be forced to buy one...because I couldn't afford a 911. And then I think I would go for the Boxster S instead.

    But it is of course a matter of taste, personal preference and how long somebody drives and enjoys Porsche cars. When I sold my 993 back in 1997 and went for a 996 Carrera 2 instead, a lot of people thought that I'm insane. Now the 996 is the most succesful 911 in Porsche history and I get the feeling that the 997 won't stay behind.

    So maybe people need to give new Porsche models just a little chance to prove that they're really worth calling themselves Porsche. I still have my doubt about it regarding the Cayenne V6.

    Re: How do you guys feel about other P Models being introduced?

    Typically super reply RC . You echo my sentiments throughout - especially with regards to the V6 and the Cayman.

    I have driven all 3 Cayenne models extensively, and that V6 was just so underpowered it was shocking. I think most people who dismiss the Cayenne should at very least take a Turbo for a test drive (and I mean a REAL test drive ) then come back with an official opinion.

    I am still in awe at how much power and precision handling I command when in control of this 2 tonne vehicle. As you already know RC, I am now eagerly awaiting the 2nd generation Cayenne Turbo S - if reports filtering in with regards to power are true - it's going to be one heck of a machine.

     
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