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    Re: LA Times article by Pulitzer prize winner auto reviewer

    yea the Cayman is Porsches best model who would want any kind of a 997 now

    Re: LA Times article by Pulitzer prize winner auto reviewer

    Didn't we already have a thread for that article?

    Re: LA Times article by Pulitzer prize winner auto reviewer

    Completely biased article which doesn't mention the Cayman #1 critic: its price, higher than a Boxster S. Also there will be a 911 with a hatchback, the Targa.

    Re: LA Times article by Pulitzer prize winner auto reviewer

    This article is so old. I can't believe that loser, Nick, is trudging up this article again. RC, can you please delete this thread?

    Re: LA Times article by Pulitzer prize winner auto reviewer

    Quote:
    brunner said:
    Didn't we already have a thread for that article?



    Yes its a repost, this article was the subject of a thread posted just 2 months ago and Nick posted in that thread several posts himself... seems Nick is running out of Porsche 911 bashing material so much lately that he is trying recycle old stuff

    Nick, you really need to find something better to do with your free time than stuff like this

    Re: LA Times article by Pulitzer prize winner auto reviewer

    The LA Times must not pay enough for him to get a 911. Maybe a Cayman is more in his price range

    Re: LA Times article by Pulitzer prize winner auto reviewer

    I do not recall the article. It was just posted on reenlist and I thought it was informative enough for posting here. If it is a repost, I apologize.

    BTW, none of you have the technical knowlege or driving experience to impugn Dan Neil's expertise on cars.

    Re: LA Times article by Pulitzer prize winner auto reviewer

    Quote:
    nberry said:
    BTW, none of you have the technical knowlege or driving experience to impugn Dan Neil's expertise on cars.



    How could you possibly know that for sure???

    Re: LA Times article by Pulitzer prize winner auto reviewer

    Quote:
    nberry said:
    I do not recall the article. It was just posted on reenlist and I thought it was informative enough for posting here. If it is a repost, I apologize.

    BTW, none of you have the technical knowlege or driving experience to impugn Dan Neil's expertise on cars.



    Oh my, yet another ignorant utterance; what knowledge have you about any of our experience or expertise? While you were learning torts, I was designing software for particle accelerators--but maybe that's not 'technical' enough...

    Ferrari produces a beautiful product, but what will nick and his cadre of experts say when it becomes painfully apparent that for the market cost of an F430, someone could fill TWO garage spaces with BOTH a 997TT and a 997GT3, either of which will scorch any Ferrari under $1M ?

    Re: LA Times article by Pulitzer prize winner auto reviewer

    Quote:
    nberry said:
    BTW, none of you have the technical knowlege or driving experience to impugn Dan Neil's expertise on cars.



    That's a bold statement coming from a guy who was not smart enough to get into a top 50 law school.

    Re: LA Times article by Pulitzer prize winner auto reviewer

    The article simply says that the Cayman S handles better than a 911. Pretty much every review I've read of the Cayman S says the same thing. Add to that the fact that it makes perfect sense, and the conclusion is equally simple: the Cayman S probably handles better than a 911. It's a well written piece too. The only part I'd disagree with is the comment that the 911 still tends to snap oversteer. That's not my impression, though I think that's still a common misperception based on the car's reputation. Certainly a 997 or 997 can be made to oversteer, but it's natural tendancy is to understeer. That does make me question "Dan's" knowledge and expertise . . . I can hardly wait to get behind the wheel of a Cayman S on the track.

    Re: LA Times article by Pulitzer prize winner auto reviewer

    If you want a real Ferrari get one with 12 cylinders. And how can you possibly know what our personal racing experience is? Dan

    Re: LA Times article by Pulitzer prize winner auto reviewer

    If you want a real Ferrari get one with 12 cylinders.

    Dan

    Re: LA Times article by Pulitzer prize winner auto reviewer

    Quote:
    Silver Bullet said:
    The only part I'd disagree with is the comment that the 911 still tends to snap oversteer.



    I thought that was a characteristic of mid engine cars... 911 doesn't suffer this, shows how much the guy knows...

    Re: LA Times article by Pulitzer prize winner auto reviewer

    1) dated post
    2) dated poster
    3) Neil won the Pulitzer in 2004 for his journalistic abilities in the subcategory of criticism, not his driving expertise or technical knowledge
    4) clearly this poster has major insecurity issues - but if it makes him feel beter about himself, it is his right to post here.

    Re: LA Times article by Pulitzer prize winner auto reviewer

    IMO most of what Dan says in the article is accurate. This guy tells it like it is even at the risk of losing advertisers. GM pulled all their ads in the LA Times for his truth about the G6 and what a let down it was. Regardless, relax, the likes of the Cayman is not going to knock the 911 off its pedestal any time soon.

    Re: LA Times article by Pulitzer prize winner auto reviewer

    I'm looking forward to the technical article explaining how a rear weighted car handles better than a mid engined 50/50 car.

    Didn't Porsche's professional track tester just opine the Cayman handled better in the twisties than the 911? I guess I could try and find it if no one remembers.

    All the cayman is missing is a high power powerplant, which Porsche's not going to give it (at least not one surpassing the 911), so I'll buy the 997tt. Still, I would rather have the 911 without the back seats and an engine where it is in the Boxster/Cayman.

    I like being a traditionalist so I'm not going to knock anyone's preferrence for the rear biased 911. I also admire the skill necessary to drive it to the limits and the fun one can have shifting out the back end. Still, I ultimately prefer the opportunity to go faster, safer, with the least effort, over fanatical dedication to decades of tradition so I'll drive the 911tt, but dream about a Cayman tt.

    SHIELDS UP!!!!!!

    Re: LA Times article by Pulitzer prize winner auto reviewer

    When was the last time a reporter ever reported the truth.....about anything?

    Re: LA Times article by Pulitzer prize winner auto reviewer

    Like anyone whose opinion I respect is going to be writing the auto section of a metro area newspaper. Please.

    An analogy I can think of is the Project Runway TV show on Bravo. My wife loves this show and I have been oddly sucked in. Anyway, talent doesn't keep you from getting cut from the show, but being a drama queen, whiner, complainer, or general bitch does, because it makes for good TV. Ditto "controversial" journalism.

    BTW, Porsche needs to do a better job of explaining the "sport" aspect of sport chrono before it hands keys to "journalists," because I have yet to read an article anywhere extolling the joys of sport mode.

    Re: LA Times article by Pulitzer prize winner auto reviewer

    Quote:
    faterikcartman said:
    I'm looking forward to the technical article explaining how a rear weighted car handles better than a mid engined 50/50 car.



    For starters mid-engine cars are not 50/50, only front engined ones are.

    Mid-engined cars are rear weight biased just like rear engined ones. The difference is a more subtle one relating to polar moment of inertia and handling character.

    Porsche has had 40 years to evolution and perfection the rear engine platform so when you speak about rear engined cars, keep rear-engined platform of the 911 in a separate group... in terms of handling it can beat any mid-engined car; find me mid-engined car in the same class that can out handle a GT3 or GT2.

    Re: LA Times article by Pulitzer prize winner auto reviewer

    Quote:
    Carlos from Spain said:
    Quote:
    faterikcartman said:
    I'm looking forward to the technical article explaining how a rear weighted car handles better than a mid engined 50/50 car.



    For starters mid-engine cars are not 50/50, only front engined ones are.

    Mid-engined cars are rear weight biased just like rear engined ones. The difference is a more subtle one relating to polar moment of inertia and handling character.

    Porsche has had 40 years to evolution and perfection the rear engine platform so when you speak about rear engined cars, keep rear-engined platform of the 911 in a separate group... in terms of handling it can beat any mid-engined car; find me mid-engined car in the same class that can out handle a GT3 or GT2.



    True, there probably isn't a mid-engined car "in the same class" that can outhandle the GT3 or GT2 (actually what about that new Lotus?) BUT, suppose Porsche offered a 400HP Cayman with appropriate upgrades in suspension and brakes. I would think such a car would outhandle a GT3/GT2.

    David

    For RC and Carlos...


    WHY is Nick still allowed to post here??? His entertainment value has long expired.

    Re: For RC and Carlos...

    Quote:
    ADias said:

    WHY is Nick still allowed to post here??? His entertainment value has long expired.




    Re: For RC and Carlos...

    Wouldn't a Ferrari 360 "outhandle" a GT3. That is to say, wouldn't it pull more g's and end up with higher speeds in a slalom or skid pad test. As I recall, the Boxster S beat the 997S in such tests for C&D. I guess one has to determine if it's in the "same class" or not. Definitely not the same price class . . .

    A mid engined car is easier to drive and toss, more balanced and intuitive.

    I personally love the 911 and it's rear engine position gives it a wonderful character, but I think it's pretty clear that mid is the optimal engine position. It provides the benefits of a rear weight bias in terms of acceleration and grip, plus the neutral handling characteristics of a more central polar inertial moment.

    Re: For RC and Carlos...

    Handling is more than slalom and ski pad tests, handling is about getting through the curves of a track quicker and involves lateral grip, braking balance, traction out of the curves, controlability at the edge of traction in the curve, etc, etc. A 997S with the standard -20mm/LSD can outhandle a F360 (and also beats it in slaom and ski pad tests). Imagine a GT3.

    A mid-engined car is not easier to drive, what makes it turn in easier/more agile also makes it to tend to spin easier at the limit due to their lower polar moment of inertia, and oversteer due to their rear weight bias.

    Mid-engine is the optimum position for a racecar, but there are many other factors that make up the whole equation and its result. Having a mid-engine in streetcars it doesn't necesarily mean is better handling or faster when compared to the 911's rear engine platform.

    Its bets to look at it more as a question of driving dinamics and handling character, they are slightly different, choose what you preffer. The 911's rear engine can be very rewarding and addictive, and the mid-engine has its desirable traits as well. But don't move from the rear engine into a mid-engine because you are loking for a better handling car, thats a mistake.

    Re: For RC and Carlos...

    Lower polar moment in a mid engine? Are we talking about an axis that the car never spins about (near the center)? The 911 has a lower polar moment during turns with no traction loss (axis through the rear diff) but has a much higher polar moment if the rears break loose (vertical axis between the center of the front tires.) As long as the fat tires and extra weight keep the rear planted (accelerating out of each turn), the 911 should have the advantage. Where am I wrong?

    Re: For RC and Carlos...

    Quote:
    GA997S said:
    Lower polar moment in a mid engine? Are we talking about an axis that the car never spins about (near the center)? The 911 has a lower polar moment during turns with no traction loss (axis through the rear diff) but has a much higher polar moment if the rears break loose (vertical axis between the center of the front tires.) As long as the fat tires and extra weight keep the rear planted (accelerating out of each turn), the 911 should have the advantage. Where am I wrong?



    I've always thought of it in a much simpler way, basically considering the axis as being the center of the car as it relates to "turn in" and how easy it is to get the car to change directions. In that sense, the mid engine car has a lower polar moment of inertia and can change directions more easily. I think that's the common understanding, though that could easily be wrong, and now you've got me thinking . . .

    Carlos points out that "handling" is complex and involves many features of how a car maneuvers and responds - can't easily be measured objectively. So the handling differences between rear and mid engine may be more of personal preference rather than one being objectively better than the other. I think that's a very diplomatic position, and I certainly respect Carlos' opinion, but I think that most people would consider mid as the optimal engine position for a sportscar - no disrespect meant for the 911 (which I love) and the incredible work done on it over the years. However, even Porsche chose, when making its greatest supercar ever, to put the engine in the middle.

    I'd also love to see how a Cayman S with more power and the appropriate modifications (and there is one available with the Carrera S 3.8L engine - one step in the right direction) would do against a similarly powered 997 in a variety of "tests". More importantly, I'd love to drive them both back to back on a nice track!

    Re: For RC and Carlos...

    Porsche loves it - it's enthusiasts arguing which of IT'S OWN several lines of SPORTScars is better for him/herself. Takes the heat off , albeit temporarily , fron the poor selling TRUCK their salespeople have to try to unload.

    Re: For RC and Carlos...

    Quote:
    MKW said:
    Porsche loves it - it's enthusiasts arguing which of IT'S OWN several lines of SPORTScars is better for him/herself. Takes the heat off , albeit temporarily , fron the poor selling TRUCK their salespeople have to try to unload.



    Not to highjack the thread, but as an aside, I don't know if you can call the Cayenne "poor selling." True, it tanked in late fall while the domestics sold at "employee" pricing, but January '06 saw 1,028 units sold, compared to 1,071 in January of '05. Seems that the sales dip could be attributed to the lack of incentives thrown at the Cayenne (resulting in its high resale value) and the initial shock of higher gas prices.

    And now, back to our regularly scheduled programming.

    Re: For RC and Carlos...

    I find that there's a fatal flaw in most automotive journalists. Not all car scribes, just "most". That flaw is that they get to drive and dissect innumerable different cars. But where they stub their toe is that they never PAY for the cars, they fail to consider issues and nuances that float to the surfact the moment it's YOUR money on the table.

    When you look into the home stables of most car critics, it's a yawn-fest of a couple lame commuters, and one token classic to make them feel artistic and retrospective.

    When you've got absolutely zero vested interest, and no plans on being married to any one product for more than a week, it's easy to fall into a trap where your observations are clinical and 3rd-person removed.

    When you're scratching a check that in many cases embodies the culmination of a life-long dream, practical matters such as "optimum location for the engine" don't mean a damn thing, if you're not in love with the car on a personal level to begin with.

    As such, it's a piece of cake for him to rail on the 911, and hail the Cayman. I don't really take umbrage to anything he said in the article. He doesn't have to pay for any of these cars, he just gets tossed keys.

    You live a lifestyle, a career, of driving different products every day, every week, and getting paid for it, and you lose the romance of relationship between car and owner. It's like getting paid to be a sex critic. After getting freaky with so many different beautiful women, you unwillingly become jaded in the process...

    My 911 is more than just a rational sports car choice. It's a highly emotional choice, and the fulfillment of a deep attraction. For my hard-earned money, the extra step beyond Cayman money was the best money I ever spent. Mr. Neil has been in the "trenches" for too long to understand the value of emotion in the price of a car. He gets to borrow his for free.

     
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