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    Re: Porsche Mission R...

    kudryavchik:

    Dear Pentium, in my humble opinion ev makes no sense at all (until these evs run on li battery). Only hydrogen or, who knows, maybe some time we will see very portable nuclear reactors that doesnt diffuse radiation.

    Also, I think (of course i could be wrong, we are all humans)) the second market will die with the current evs. The battery is a whole car, nobody will buy ev with the dead cells, there is simply no sense. The current trend in all industries is to create one time used device that is almost not serviceable. The cars, being the sector of much longer cycles simply lags behind phones and computers. Later the manufacturers will program the parts to the car brains, so you even could not change the brake pads out of official service. Of course everything in the name of customers security, health, happiness and high standards of parts quality. Hi apple))

    P.s. with evs forget about ownership, people will buy the right to use the car under manufacturer control (its named full life cycle management).
    --

     

    sportcars-history.com

     

    Hmm. FYI. As mentioned Kelly Blue book lists my car at $5k more than I paid for it new. With 30k miles after to years. My range is still within 10 miles from new. Same as it was 18 months ago. 

    Screw government incentives. Why do I want to spend tax dollars on helping people buy a car that already makes so much sense?  Let them figure it out for themselves. From what I can see EV should require as much political help to sell them as vaccines.  
    We need the market to drive decisions not the idiots in government. That is the biggest problem. 


    Re: Porsche Mission R...

    Leawood911:
    kudryavchik:

    Dear Pentium, in my humble opinion ev makes no sense at all (until these evs run on li battery). Only hydrogen or, who knows, maybe some time we will see very portable nuclear reactors that doesnt diffuse radiation.

    Also, I think (of course i could be wrong, we are all humans)) the second market will die with the current evs. The battery is a whole car, nobody will buy ev with the dead cells, there is simply no sense. The current trend in all industries is to create one time used device that is almost not serviceable. The cars, being the sector of much longer cycles simply lags behind phones and computers. Later the manufacturers will program the parts to the car brains, so you even could not change the brake pads out of official service. Of course everything in the name of customers security, health, happiness and high standards of parts quality. Hi apple))

    P.s. with evs forget about ownership, people will buy the right to use the car under manufacturer control (its named full life cycle management).
    --

     

    sportcars-history.com

     

    Hmm. FYI. As mentioned Kelly Blue book lists my car at $5k more than I paid for it new. With 30k miles after to years. My range is still within 10 miles from new. Same as it was 18 months ago. 

    Screw government incentives. Why do I want to spend tax dollars on helping people buy a car that already makes so much sense?  Let them figure it out for themselves. From what I can see EV should require as much political help to sell them as vaccines.  
    We need the market to drive decisions not the idiots in government. That is the biggest problem. 

    You have written that we need the market to drive decisions not the idiots in government - here, finally, i can fully agree with you.

    About vaccines - different topic, to me its new age fashism. But i will not develop this topic here...

    The biggest problem to me today - unfortunately, people stop to think and analyse. I dont know why, maybe because of lack of reading the books and text. 


    --

     

    sportcars-history.com

     


    Re: Porsche Mission R...

    Pentium:

    Whoopsy, 75 miles is enough range for 90% of the population, true BUT that's the usable range.

    People that are very carefully with their money budget will try to protect the battery and the easiest way to do that is to keep it between 20% and 80% and only AC charging for 90% of a year. So the 75 miles become 150 miles at least in a real world scenario (I would say 200 miles to be safe). So the EV needs to have something like 200 miles when new.

    Also, the same people will want to sell the car at a certain point and they will think about battery depreciation too. Most manufacturers if not all at the Leaf price point promise that after 7-8 years the battery will not drop below 70% capacity. For a 200 miles car 30% is like 60 miles so the range will drop to 140 miles but useable will be just 60% so something like 80 miles. Tough sale.

    So do you only charge your phone to 80%? Or your laptop for that matters? You always keep the phone and laptop at 20%-80%? 

    Sizing bigger battery that way is just a waste, dead weight that the car needed to move and create inefficiency. Not to mention more expensive than needed.

    A Smart car, has a tiny gas tank, it's good enough for what it do. Pointless to carry a bigger gas tank and the extra weight. A long haul trailer however have gigantic gas tank as they need to travel long distances. 

    One set a target and build to that target. A design envelope so to speak. It's pointless to exceed that envelope. 

     

     


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    Re: Porsche Mission R...

    I would bet that smartphones are not really charging to 100%.  That percent is there to let you know you are done charging. Pretty certain they hold some capacity back to save the battery.  Some automakers are doing the same thing to appear to be charging quicker. Just saying. 
     


    Re: Porsche Mission R...

    kudryavchik:
    Leawood911:
    kudryavchik:

    Dear Pentium, in my humble opinion ev makes no sense at all (until these evs run on li battery). Only hydrogen or, who knows, maybe some time we will see very portable nuclear reactors that doesnt diffuse radiation.

    Also, I think (of course i could be wrong, we are all humans)) the second market will die with the current evs. The battery is a whole car, nobody will buy ev with the dead cells, there is simply no sense. The current trend in all industries is to create one time used device that is almost not serviceable. The cars, being the sector of much longer cycles simply lags behind phones and computers. Later the manufacturers will program the parts to the car brains, so you even could not change the brake pads out of official service. Of course everything in the name of customers security, health, happiness and high standards of parts quality. Hi apple))

    P.s. with evs forget about ownership, people will buy the right to use the car under manufacturer control (its named full life cycle management).
    --

     

    sportcars-history.com

     

    Hmm. FYI. As mentioned Kelly Blue book lists my car at $5k more than I paid for it new. With 30k miles after to years. My range is still within 10 miles from new. Same as it was 18 months ago. 

    Screw government incentives. Why do I want to spend tax dollars on helping people buy a car that already makes so much sense?  Let them figure it out for themselves. From what I can see EV should require as much political help to sell them as vaccines.  
    We need the market to drive decisions not the idiots in government. That is the biggest problem. 

    You have written that we need the market to drive decisions not the idiots in government - here, finally, i can fully agree with you.

    About vaccines - different topic, to me its new age fashism. But i will not develop this topic here...

    The biggest problem to me today - unfortunately, people stop to think and analyse. I dont know why, maybe because of lack of reading the books and text. 


    --

     

    sportcars-history.com

     

    I only mentioned vaccines in terms of - if it is good for you it does not need to be subsidized.  Purely an economic point not meant to be political or medical. 


    Re: Porsche Mission R...

    Leawood911:

    I would bet that smartphones are not really charging to 100%.  That percent is there to let you know you are done charging. Pretty certain they hold some capacity back to save the battery.  Some automakers are doing the same thing to appear to be charging quicker. Just saying. 
     

     

    There is no need to 'appear' to be charging faster. There are actually kW gauge telling you that the cars are charging faster, much faster.

    Like you said, most manufacturers employ a top buffer to maximize the battery's performance, Tesla is the only one that doesn't. It has a tin top buffer, to maximize the usable capacity in order to score well in EPA range test. 

     


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    Re: Porsche Mission R...

    Just as we were talking about the Leaf. here is a video about it's range.

    Car is 9 years old and has over 72k miles on the clock. It can still do 60+miles, over 100km, even when it has lost an indicated 30% of the range over the years. That's more than enough range to satisfy most people's daily usage in the city.  

    Who here drives more than 100km every day inside the city? 

     


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    Re: Porsche Mission R...

    Whoopsy:

    Just as we were talking about the Leaf. here is a video about it's range.

    Car is 9 years old and has over 72k miles on the clock. It can still do 60+miles, over 100km, even when it has lost an indicated 30% of the range over the years. That's more than enough range to satisfy most people's daily usage in the city.  

    Who here drives more than 100km every day inside the city? 

     

    Exactly. It's 7km from my house to my office and nowadays I only go in once or twice a week. With my company that's not going to going to change either as we're now "if it can be done from home, it should be done from home". 75% of my driving could be dealt with through a small range car. The problem for me is the other 25% (but probably 40+% of my total mileage) where we drive to our cottage/lake house. But someone just in the city? Range isn't an issue. 


    --

    Past-President, Porsche Club of America - Upper Canada Region


    Re: Porsche Mission R...

    Yes Whoopsy, personally I do keep my phone, my tablet and my laptop between 20% and 80% but I am not representative for the normal customer. And we can’t compare a car with mobile devices. They have very different life spans and I don’t keep my laptop outside in the winter at -20°C.


    --

    There is no try. Just do.


    Re: Porsche Mission R...

    Here in Europe that EV will be a hard to impossible sell as a second hand car with just 100km range left.

    No one likes to charge their car each day.


    --

    There is no try. Just do.


    Re: Porsche Mission R...

    Leawood I’m talking about Nissan Leaf, Renault Zoe, Hyundai Kona and similar cars. A Tesla around here it is NOT in the same group. I’m glad for you that your car worth more now but that doesn’t apply at all where I live.


    --

    There is no try. Just do.


    Re: Porsche Mission R...

    I’m with you on hydrogen but it is what it is and the politicians decided that at least for the next 20 years we should buy EVs Smiley So I’m trying to use the system, not change it.


    --

    There is no try. Just do.


    Re: Porsche Mission R...

    Oh, BTW Whoopsy we have proof on how people think (even that in theory you are correct and 60 miles should be enough per day - but still you will charge it every day……): the Mazda MX-30

    Average range is listed at 200km but in real life it’s more like 150km and the sales are really bad. Everyone picks a Zoe or a Leaf.


    --

    There is no try. Just do.


    Re: Porsche Mission R...

    To test the dark sidesmiley…I just leased an electric SMART cabrio for three years.

    This thing is pure city-fun…instant torque, turns on the spot…the smallest parking space is enough.

    The range is max. 100 miles…real world is just about 60 miles, but for short daily city drives - perfect.

    Our first private Mercedes…(7 times F1 Champion)smiley

    Blueflame

    0EC4D0DE-E6A0-45BE-837E-D00464627EA0.jpeg


    Re: Porsche Mission R...

    Pentium:

    I’m with you on hydrogen but it is what it is and the politicians decided that at least for the next 20 years we should buy EVs Smiley So I’m trying to use the system, not change it.

    Understandable. We are not Don Quijotes


    --

    sportcars-history.com


    Re: Porsche Mission R...

    Pentium:

    Here in Europe that EV will be a hard to impossible sell as a second hand car with just 100km range left.

    No one likes to charge their car each day.

     

    Tell that to Leawood, he charges his Model 3 every night, he says it's very convenient to have a full charge every morning! Smiley

    Personally I run down both my EVs before plugging them in. I never keep them at 100% for long. When it gets to ~15% charge left, I plug it in and drive the other one.

    Oh, you might be surprise, I kept my last MacBook Pro for 4 years. Longer than I keep a car Smiley

    Heck I was on iPhone 11 Pro until earlier when I switched to the 13 Pro, so 2 years, still longer than I keep some of my cars Smiley

     


    --

     

     


    Re: Porsche Mission R...

    blueflame:

    To test the dark sidesmiley…I just leased an electric SMART cabrio for three years.

    This thing is pure city-fun…instant torque, turns on the spot…the smallest parking space is enough.

    The range is max. 100 miles…real world is just about 60 miles, but for short daily city drives - perfect.

    Our first private Mercedes…(7 times F1 Champion)smiley

    Blueflame

    0EC4D0DE-E6A0-45BE-837E-D00464627EA0.jpeg

     

    One of my 918 friends got one of these in Stuttgart, his girlfriend loves it just to use it around town, like you said, small and agile and nimble for city driving. These are like the perfect city car. 


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    Re: Porsche Mission R...

    First drive: Porsche Mission R concept review (by Andrew Frankel)

    The Mission R shows how Porsche sports cars could be electrified. Our man might need some convincing...

    99 Porsche Mission R concept drive hero front

    (23 November 2021)

    Well, this is strange: a race car that comes with its own 45-minute safety briefing, conducted days before you’re to climb aboard. Then, just before you do, there’s another. I could describe it all to you, but the essence is that if all the dashboard lights suddenly turn red, get the hell out.

    There’s some advice about how to exit in a hurry while touching either the car or the ground but never both at the same time, but the days of ejecting myself from a car like a champagne cork departing its bottle are probably behind me, if they were ever before me. But there are 900 volts of electricity in here, so I guess it pays to be careful.

    ‘Here’ is the interior of the Porsche Mission R, and here’s the thing: this is a concept car, the very same one that was on the Porsche stand at the Munich motor show in September. There is another, but it’s a mock-up for show purposes only. In terms of cars that actually work, this is the only Mission R in existence, and there’s no plan to build another.

    It has no official value, but unofficially I happen to know it’s valued at €8 million (£6.74m). Yet here I am, clad in fireproof overalls from balaclava to boots, about to take to the track outside Porsche’s Los Angeles Experience Center. And a couple of exploratory laps in the passenger seat have revealed that if you leave the track for any reason, you will crash. There’s no run-off at all...

    But before I fire it up, let’s just briefly remind ourselves what it is, why it was built and what if anything we can read into its existence. For one thing we know about Porsche is that it never ever does a concept car without a broader purpose in mind. In this case, it’s the company’s first electric sports car.

    The start point was a 718 Cayman, but by the time the team was finished nine months later, only small parts of the centre section remained; the rest is bespoke. I had hoped that the car would actually be based on the platform of the next Cayman, due in 2023 or 2024, but no such luck.  

    The Mission R’s project manager, Michael Behr, told me: “It’s actually very similar in size. There’s only 1mm difference in wheelbase between the Mission R and the next Cayman, but we only found out after we had done the car! It’s a complete coincidence.”

    What it probably owes most to, powertrain aside, is the 911 RSR Le Mans racer. It has the RSR’s rear axle, its front suspension (the rear suspension is a strut not common to any other Porsche) and even its fiendishly complex steering wheel.

    The powertrain is mighty: it has an 80kWh battery providing juice to front and rear motors that have a combined output of just under 1100bhp in qualifying mode. In race mode, which is what we’re restricted to today, it makes a trifling 670bhp. All out, it can hit 62mph from rest in less than 2.5sec and not stop accelerating until it hits 192mph, despite that high downforce and, as it turns out, predominantly ethically sourced natural flax fibre bodywork.

    The interior is bewildering until you realise that, beside the steering, brake and accelerator, there’s a grand total of one control that you need to master, which is a switch on the wheel that makes the thing go. 

    I’m obliged to say here that because this is an unbelievably valuable concept that was made with cutting-edge technologies and hasn’t been through the development process of a normal Porsche race car, it was officially limited to 62mph. Disappointed? Me too. Dreadfully. So I need to choose the following words carefully. Had the people running the car, who include Le Mans winner Marc Lieb and Nürburgring 24 Hours winner Lars Kern, decided that this particular rule was – how should I put it? – to be honoured more in the breach than the observance on the condition that I didn’t own up to it in public, then I would be able to base the driving impressions that follow on going a whole lot faster. And from that you may deduce what you will. 

    The track is tight and technical, full of unhelpful cambers, even more unhelpful bumps and some elevation changes. The radio crackles into life in my headphones: “Andrew. Position one on the steering wheel. Proceed onto the track when you’re ready.”

    And that’s it. You then just squeeze the throttle and away you go. And the first big surprise is it’s actually quite noisy in here – so noisy, in fact, that you realise the lengths that makers of electric road cars go to in order to keep their motors quiet.

    You’re almost immediately on a straight, so you straighten your right foot at once. With four-wheel drive and vast Michelin slick tyres, you’re never going to spin up the wheels, even though the car has no traction control or, for that matter, anti-lock brakes. For all the technology crammed into this car, you are, dynamically speaking, on your own.

    With such traction and power, the Mission R goes from near standstill to very, very fast without leaving time for you to ponder any of the speeds in between. This is the first time that I’ve driven an electric race car, and I feared that I might need time to get used to the instant throttle response, but actually it’s easy, because it’s so linear. It’s not like there’s a torque curve to understand: it’s just all there all of the time. 

    On that serious rubber, with its RSR suspension and massive (albeit unspecified) downforce, the Mission R will pull 2g in the corners, so there’s no lack of lateral grip, either. But while the back of the car is rooted to the spot and needs to be provoked before it will move, the front can peel away from the apex quite easily – although the resulting understeer can be killed by lifting off the throttle. Besides, as Kern pointed out to me, “if you’re not happy with the balance, you could just change it mid-race”. You could because – in theory, at least – you would be able to choose and change the front-to-rear torque split on the move from a control on the wheel. Which would be quite a cool trick.

    I’m more concerned with not crashing. This isn’t a difficult car to drive; on the contrary, it’s positively benign. But the barriers are close and the price of getting it wrong isn’t a number on which I choose to dwell. Ten laps later, I’m back in the pits.

    What interested me, as someone who has pointed out regularly the limitations of EVs from a dynamic enjoyment point of view, is that when you’re driving the Mission R, that’s not how you think, because you’re just too busy. I’m not saying it wouldn’t be more entertaining still with a howling flat six and some paddles to pull, but even with pure electrical power, the Mission R is involving, rewarding, fascinating and, given that it’s meant to be a concept, unbelievably well resolved.  

    So what, if anything, does it say about the future of the Porsche sports car? We know Porsche never does these projects in a vacuum, and this is no exception. You will remember how little changed was the Mission E of 2015 when it became the Taycan in 2019. So at the very least, what you’re looking at is a big part of the future of Porsche customer racing. But there’s more here. Nothing is certain, but should Porsche decide that an electric Cayman is what’s required (and let’s face it, that has to happen sometime), this probably isn’t a million miles away from what it will look like or indeed how it will drive.

    And while I would still rather stay in our internally combusted present, that’s not an option any longer; and if the electrically powered future can be anything like as much fun to drive as this, that’s something not to be dreaded but to which we can all genuinely look forward.

    How being four-wheel drive makes the Mission R lighter

    I asked Mission R project manager Michael Behr why his team didn’t make the car rear-driven and thus lighter than the impressively light 1500kg that it weighs with a driven front axle. There were two answers. The obvious one is that with nearly 1100bhp in qualifying mode, traction is seriously important. “But,” added Behr, “it would also make the car heavier.”

    “Eh?” said I. But it’s true: so great is the amount of energy recovered through braking on the front axle (more than 40% of which is done by the motor alone) that if you dispensed with it, you would need a battery 50% larger to compensate, and because batteries weigh morethan motors, the Mission R would become heavier.

    Interestingly, when you drive the car hard and apply the brakes, it’s not possible to tell where the regenerative braking from the motor stops and traditional braking from the huge discs commences.

     

    Porsche Mission R specifications

    Price €8 million (£6.74m, est) Engine Two electric motors Power 1085bhp (qualifying), 670bhp (race) Transmission single-speed, direct drive Kerb weight 1500kg 0-62mph less than 2.5sec Top speed 192mph Battery 80kWh

    Link:  https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/first-drive-porsche-mission-r-concept-review

    Smiley


    Re: Porsche Mission R...

    Whoopsy:
    Pentium:

    Here in Europe that EV will be a hard to impossible sell as a second hand car with just 100km range left.

    No one likes to charge their car each day.

     

    Tell that to Leawood, he charges his Model 3 every night, he says it's very convenient to have a full charge every morning! Smiley

    Personally I run down both my EVs before plugging them in. I never keep them at 100% for long. When it gets to ~15% charge left, I plug it in and drive the other one.

    Oh, you might be surprise, I kept my last MacBook Pro for 4 years. Longer than I keep a car Smiley

    Heck I was on iPhone 11 Pro until earlier when I switched to the 13 Pro, so 2 years, still longer than I keep some of my cars Smiley

     

    You are not a representative user either Smiley

    With the exception of my phone (really heavy usage for work) I also keep hardware longer than the average user.


    --

    There is no try. Just do.


    Re: Porsche Mission R...

    Thanks for posting!


    --

    22 GT3 Manual, 73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 18 GT3 Manual, 16 Cayman GT4, 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550, 79 635CSi


    Re: Porsche Mission R...

    Whoopsy:
    Pentium:

    Here in Europe that EV will be a hard to impossible sell as a second hand car with just 100km range left.

    No one likes to charge their car each day.

     

    Tell that to Leawood, he charges his Model 3 every night, he says it's very convenient to have a full charge every morning! Smiley

    Personally I run down both my EVs before plugging them in. I never keep them at 100% for long. When it gets to ~15% charge left, I plug it in and drive the other one.

    Oh, you might be surprise, I kept my last MacBook Pro for 4 years. Longer than I keep a car Smiley

    Heck I was on iPhone 11 Pro until earlier when I switched to the 13 Pro, so 2 years, still longer than I keep some of my cars Smiley

     

    I never charge past 90% unless going on a long trip immediately. Why would you assume that I charge to 100%?  There is nothing wrong with plugging in at night or leaving it plugged in for weeks.  Superchargers do damage not home charging to 80-90%. 


    Re: Porsche Mission R...

    Joke with 8 mln euro, but i hope that the price will remain so no team will be able to buy it 😀 of course lease is possible, but I hope porsche will have minus with parts 😀


    --

    sportcars-history.com


    Re: Porsche Mission R...

    I have used my iphone 7 for 3,5-4 years))) didnt want to change until the time came. It simply started to lag, but I cannot say that with the new one (flip 3) my use case scenario is different. 

    Anyway I like my toshiba libretto 50ct more)) 75 mhz p1 and 16 ram opens msoffice 95 faster than the imac 27 its office 365 (both on ssd) 😆


    --

    sportcars-history.com


    Re: Porsche Mission R...

    Boxster Coupe GTS:

    ...

    99 Porsche Mission R concept drive hero front

     

    On a sidenote; these pictures really hide the uglier aspects of the design and make it look much better than a lot of the earlier pictures we've seen Smiley


    --


    Porsche, separates Le Mans from Le Boys


    Re: Porsche Mission R...

    The swan-neck looks nicer on the Mission R compared to the GT models.

    The design is generally successful IMO. Some family resemblance with other Porsche cars but with modernity as is the trend with other upmarket EVs. The Mission R would look better in a single colour.


    --

    "Porsche....and Nothing else matters"


    Re: Porsche Mission R...

    reginos:

    The swan-neck looks nicer on the Mission R compared to the GT models.

    The design is generally successful IMO. Some family resemblance with other Porsche cars but with modernity as is the trend with other upmarket EVs. The Mission R would look better in a single colour.

    Maybe we're just getting used to it. I think the design looks good, Removing some the aggressive aero and smoothing down the bottom half should yield a good looking car. I'm optimistic. 

     


    Re: Porsche Mission R...

    Enmanuel:

    ...
    Maybe we're just getting used to it. I think the design looks good, Removing some the aggressive aero and smoothing down the bottom half should yield a good looking car. I'm optimistic. 

    Yeah, I am especially hopeful of the rear treatment; with the 992, and especially the GT3 model, there is too much "meat" there, makes the car look really bulky. The Mission R in the last picture however, shows a really slender rear. Of course, the Mission R does not have a big engine there and a lot of diffusor, but still! 


    --


    Porsche, separates Le Mans from Le Boys


    Re: Porsche Mission R...

    Leawood911:

    I never charge past 90% unless going on a long trip immediately. Why would you assume that I charge to 100%?  There is nothing wrong with plugging in at night or leaving it plugged in for weeks.  Superchargers do damage not home charging to 80-90%. 

    85% seem to be the sweet spot for the Taycan. That is what I put my home charging profile on.


    --

    2016 Porsche 981 GT4 | Racing Yellow
    2018 Audi S6 Avant | Ibis White


    Re: Porsche Mission R...

    Joost:

    On a sidenote; these pictures really hide the uglier aspects of the design and make it look much better than a lot of the earlier pictures we've seen Smiley


    Car doesn't look any uglier than the new Icona Ferrari. Smiley


    --

    We're at the point where you can be the fastest or just sound like you're the fastest.



    The secret of life is to admire without desiring.


    Re: Porsche Mission R...

    Rossi:
    Joost:

    On a sidenote; these pictures really hide the uglier aspects of the design and make it look much better than a lot of the earlier pictures we've seen Smiley


    Car doesn't look any uglier than the new Icona Ferrari. Smiley

    New icona is nice:)


    --

    sportcars-history.com


     
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