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    Re: Corvette NBR record lap PICTURES!!

    Quote:
    666 Z06 said:
    There's a reason they call it the Flugplatz (airfield).





    Yeah, but this car is from the seventies...much like the Vette

    Re: Corvette NBR record lap PICTURES!!

    Quote:
    JimFlat6 said:
    Not so funny wings,,,,,, Dr. Phil shame!!!! Picking on the ricers.

    They have similarily ugly ones on some of the 997 race cars running in the Rolex series...

    I like the vette for the Katech designed 7 liter motor,
    The rest of the car needs to be replaced, sooooon. Its basically still all engine,no car,but they have developed the C6 as far as it can go probably. I look at it as market place holder/engine test bed for the new C7 due in two years.

    As for your concern about Magnussen blabbering about what hp his car had, consider this......

    If you buy from Katech directly the same engine as used in the Z06, Katech says it has from 550hp to 575hp. The katech FIA race engine with throttle and exhaust restrictors does make 600hp, with out them it would make 680 they claim.Wich from 7 liters is a decent power output/displacement ratio.

    If you buy the Z06 engine from GM, they say it has only 505hp. GM has a known history of understating the actual hp output of its V8 performance motors. Most recent example was the C5 Z06 with 400hp net factory claim. Many were producing 370-380hp at the rear wheels on dyno tests.



    What can I say? I am a rice-ist!

    Concerning the engine I think you just made an argument FOR the fact that the engine had a lot more than 500 bhp...or did I not read you correctly?

    We've debated this thru THREE threads and lots of posts, and still nobody has been able to produce some kinda official confirmation of either time, car spec etc etc.
    I realize that NBR laptimes are not monitored by anyone, and perhaps it would be a good idea that every single (not just GM) producer had their times confirmed by a third party.
    I'm sure also Porsche have been "creative" with their laptimes, car setup etc thru the times, and I know that since NBR is basically considered Porsche homefield that everyone tends to accept Porsche's claimed laptimes faster and easier than when an "enemy" attemps and succeeds at beating an NBR laptime record.
    History, legacy and myth plays a big role here I think.
    And it sometimes clouds our judgement.

    We actually dont know for a fact what exact time Magnussen set and with what specs. We can guess but we will never know.
    Same goes for every other laptime. Porsche or non-Porsche.

    And I believe that is the main purpose of this.
    To make enthusiasts like us talk..and talk, and talk.
    Generate PR, awareness and build on legacies, branding, history, myth etc.
    And it would seem -judging from this forum - that they are pretty succesful in this area.
    Viral marketing at its best.

    But what the heck. Who needs fact when we can have fun debating this until the Sun turns black?

    Re: Corvette NBR record lap PICTURES!!

    Quote:
    Dr. Phil said:
    At NBR the street car reaches 295 km/h on the long straight in 5th gear (6th gear is an overgear for saving gasoline).



    Max speed of 295km/h on the Nürburgring? This underlines my serious doubts. No way, this car can do 295km/h on Döttinger Höhe. It is a big, big cheat.

    P.S.: For ease of reference some corresponding top speeds on NBR: Carrera GT (612hp) 294km/h, Murcielago (580hp) 284km/h. Strong evidence...

    Re: Corvette NBR record lap PICTURES!!

    Quote:
    MKSGR said:
    Quote:
    Dr. Phil said:
    At NBR the street car reaches 295 km/h on the long straight in 5th gear (6th gear is an overgear for saving gasoline).



    Max speed of 295km/h on the Nürburgring? This underlines my serious doubts. No way, this car can do 295km/h on Döttinger Höhe. It is a big, big cheat.

    P.S.: For ease of reference some corresponding top speeds on NBR: Carrera GT (612hp) 294km/h, Murcielago (580hp) 284km/h. Strong evidence...



    Maybe he was referring to his speedometer and not a GPS-measured time?

    Re: Corvette NBR record lap PICTURES!!

    Quote:
    Dr. Phil said:
    I'm sure also Porsche have been "creative" with their laptimes, car setup etc thru the times, and I know that since NBR is basically considered Porsche homefield that everyone tends to accept Porsche's claimed laptimes faster and easier than when an "enemy" attemps and succeeds at beating an NBR laptime record.




    There is a big difference between Porsche and GM: Porsche knows that claimed NBR lap times will be verified by the press sooner or later. GM apparently still has to learn that.

    There brand image will without doubt be further deteriorated by this cheat about the Z06 lap times (see my previous post about top speed).

    Re: Corvette NBR record lap PICTURES!!

    Quote:
    SoCalHoosier said:Where is the one individual who refused to believe any of this stuff?


    That individual looks like it's working for GM, considering they themselves refused to believe the 7.40 thing

    Now i'm a little lost.
    7.40
    7.43
    7.42.9

    Which one is real?
    (My BS meter says 'none' )

    Don't get me wrong, even 7.50 is impressive for a car that cheap (both in price and driving feeling), but i'm tired of overinflated BS hype for marketing purposes.

    Re: Corvette NBR record lap PICTURES!!

    Quote:
    MKSGR said:
    There is a big difference between Porsche and GM: Porsche knows that claimed NBR lap times will be verified by the press sooner or later. GM apparently still has to learn that.

    There brand image will without doubt be further deteriorated by this cheat about the Z06 lap times (see my previous post about top speed).



    Very true, some people don't understand that there is "factory times" and independent magazine tester times, these are not comparable with each other. The factory claims need to be taken with a grain of salt since they are more of a marketing stunt than anything else, the record lap is of no use for testing its just something to throw at the press for some free publicity, thats why some tend to "inflate" those achivements (changed tire pressures, stronger engine, decreasing weight by dumping extra wheel or emptying gas tank, using a special driver that only he can extract such a time, taking more risks than what a magazine can, etc, etc, etc.).

    The only times that can be used for comaprison are those made with the "same driver" (experienced driver with a wide experience in testing practically all sportcars made in recent years), by an independant magazine, and with an editor that makes sure that everything is standarised from test to test and that the car is 100% normal, same conditions, same course, etc.

    So far all we have is a C6 time of 8:15 (only 2 seconds faster than the old 996C2 with only 300HP 997C2, and the C6 had the Z-51, the 996 had only the std suspension not M030), and which is 19 seconds slower than factory claims, ridiculous when you compare to other maker factory claims.

    Now we have the Z06 doing 7:43 by factory claims, so take a guess what the "real" time will be, since we judge the other sportcars by Sportauto times, not factory claims ... we will see

    The only thing the Z06 has going is that its cheap, but that may not even be the case here in europe, there is still no price here AFAIK.

    Re: Corvette NBR record lap PICTURES!!

    Quote:
    MKSGR said:
    Quote:
    SoCalHoosier said:
    ...though I'd love to see Porsche shatter this time with a new 997 GT3 RS I just don't think it will happen... Where is the one individual who refused to believe any of this stuff?




    The stuff is still being refused.

    A little reminder: The C5 with 400hp just did 8:15 or so in the recent sportauto test. This is a fact. Now, how could a 500hp version be 30 seconds quicker. This is a joke.

    The article posted above is a marketing event organzied by GM. In the light of the sportauto test it is quite obvious what this does imply...



    The same way the Carrera S is so much quicker than the Carrera... what are their time differences, what is their horsepower difference? According to your logic Porsche must be full of it right?

    I'm not a lover of any Corvette but I believe this one is even lighter with more power. I cringe to think there are actual Porsche customers out there that are this blind. I always thought that P-car owners had a bit more car enthusiast in them and less ego.

    Re: Corvette NBR record lap PICTURES!!

    Quote:
    brunner said:
    Quote:
    SoCalHoosier said:Where is the one individual who refused to believe any of this stuff?


    That individual looks like it's working for GM, considering they themselves refused to believe the 7.40 thing

    Now i'm a little lost.
    7.40
    7.43
    7.42.9

    Which one is real?
    (My BS meter says 'none' )


    Well, to play devil's advocate, let's recall how the above numbers were represented.

    7:40 - First reports were of the C6Z06 running "just over" 7:40. At first, I wondered if this meant 7:40.XX or if it meant 7:4X.XX. Now we can assume it was the latter.

    7:43 - Well this one is so close to 7:42.9 that I think we can assume this was just a "rounding" estimate.

    7:42.9 - I believe this is Jan Magnussen's actual time (thanks to the good Doctor's post of the magazine article). When they take these times, there are many journalists there to witness that there was no cheating. Unless they are all bribed or conspirators, I think it's real.

    Re: Corvette NBR record lap PICTURES!!

    Dr Phil.....

    On the engine power.... Im sure it has more than 500, but not because they prepped a special one, but because GM has
    always understated their V8 performance engines output. They
    are very conservative on claimed HP, not just for testing sake, but in the cars they sell.

    As a pure guess deduced from owner testing dyno results of
    other GM performance engines, the Z06 may have something like 470-485hp AT THE REAR WHEELS and close to 500 ft lbs of torque.

    As for who did what and when and how fast. I am willing to take Magnussen at his word. He has the credentials to back up what he claims, and so far no one has shown him to be
    suspect about anything.

    Re: Corvette NBR record lap PICTURES!!

    Quote:
    Carlos from Spain said:
    Quote:
    MKSGR said:
    There is a big difference between Porsche and GM: Porsche knows that claimed NBR lap times will be verified by the press sooner or later. GM apparently still has to learn that.

    There brand image will without doubt be further deteriorated by this cheat about the Z06 lap times (see my previous post about top speed).



    Very true, some people don't understand that there is "factory times" and independent magazine tester times, these are not comparable with each other. The factory claims need to be taken with a grain of salt since they are more of a marketing stunt than anything else, the record lap is of no use for testing its just something to throw at the press for some free publicity, thats why some tend to "inflate" those achivements (changed tire pressures, stronger engine, decreasing weight by dumping extra wheel or emptying gas tank, using a special driver that only he can extract such a time, taking more risks than what a magazine can, etc, etc, etc.).

    The only times that can be used for comaprison are those made with the "same driver" (experienced driver with a wide experience in testing practically all sportcars made in recent years), by an independant magazine, and with an editor that makes sure that everything is standarised from test to test and that the car is 100% normal, same conditions, same course, etc.

    So far all we have is a C6 time of 8:15 (only 2 seconds faster than the old 996C2 with only 300HP 997C2, and the C6 had the Z-51, the 996 had only the std suspension not M030), and which is 19 seconds slower than factory claims, ridiculous when you compare to other maker factory claims.

    Now we have the Z06 doing 7:43 by factory claims, so take a guess what the "real" time will be, since we judge the other sportcars by Sportauto times, not factory claims ... we will see

    The only thing the Z06 has going is that its cheap, but that may not even be the case here in europe, there is still no price here AFAIK.



    WOW! I have not witness such envy and calumny on this in a VERY long time. Let me set the record straight for you Porsche defenders before you jump out a window.

    GM made a decision a few of years back to copy Porsche by developing a car which is designed to run on the Ring. They recognized that the market for the Z06 was present Porsche owners who were differentiating the two cars based on Ring performance. Mind you, the base model Porsche was not a concern of theirs. It was the high performance race models they were going to compete with.

    The first Z06 was a good start. Larry, who owned one of the first CGT's and subsequently sold it because of clutch problems, has a 2004 Z06 whose performance at Thunderhill was so spectacular that Ben discussed with me buying one.It is equpped with special tires and very few modifications. Yet its time was faster around the track than any other car other there.

    The 2006 clearly is much better and achieved what GM set out to do. In essence, GM is taking a page from the Porsche book and selling a pricey high powered variation of a popular model. Many present Vette owners are appalled by the $65,000 price tag.

    Finally, in the US corporate responsibility is paramount and I doubt GM excutives want to go to jail for misrepresenting a car and its performance. The numbers and the car are real. I can only wonder what W. Rohrl time would be in a Z06. Accept it and hope it is a clarion call to all European sport car manufacturers to build car at a reasonable and affordable price.

    Re: Corvette NBR record lap PICTURES!!

    Nick, according to your view of things that leaves Ferrari in the worst of places compared to the Z06's performance and its pricetag OUCH!


    I must point out that no one here is saying that GM is "lying" much less the driver Magnussen. I hope by now you know enough to realise that a lap time over a 20km course is dependant on many factors which can be controlled by the manufacturer in factory tests, while the car still being reasonably stock. Thats why a manufacturer can achieve a certain lap time without lying about what the chronometer indicated but far from the lap time achievable by a universal driver under standarised enviroment for all makes. So the lap time is real but non usable for comparaitve or reference purposes. See the difference? you can only compare times made by same driver under same circumstances that all, factory makes such as these are just propaganda... remember the sub 8min BMW-M5 claims, or the Aston AMV8 sub min claims?... no one is denying the Z06 its credit but lets stay as objectively posible in the data thats all, lets wait till Saurma gets a hold of the Z06 and the Z06 prove what it can do compared to other sportcars. A thread of 10 pages on just specualtion and claims based on rumors was bad enough

    Re: Corvette NBR record lap PICTURES!!

    Quote:
    nberry said:
    Finally, in the US corporate responsibility is paramount and I doubt GM excutives want to go to jail for misrepresenting a car and its performance.



    Well, the legal risk for GM appears to be low. Who could prove that the stated numbers are wrong (or that the car was non-standard)?

    As a fact, one statement of a GM representative has been contradicted by the results of an independent magazine test already (namely the statement regarding the NBR time of the 400hp version of the Corvette)!

    So what is you answer to this obvious GM misinformation? Would you suggest to take legal steps in this case? What if I bought the 400hp Corvette after reading about the 7:59 NBR time on rennteam and then, just 10 days later, found out in sportauto that I was (intentionally?) misinformed by GM? What is your legal advice in this case

    Re: Corvette NBR record lap PICTURES!!

    I will defer to Nick's judgement on this but I should think you would have a better position for an action against GM if you were a GM stockholder rather than a consumer of their products.

    Re: Corvette NBR record lap PICTURES!!

    You can't, not a lap time performance, its not in anyway mensurable objectively for a case... I think Nick is getting confused about the recent case of Ferrari getting sued for fraudulent performance claims but that case was about top speed which is different.

    Re: Corvette NBR record lap PICTURES!!

    So Corvette opens a can of WHOOP A$$ and the only thing disbelievers can do is question Magnussens credibility.

    Why is that?

    Carlos, you left out a major testing criterion: Verification of Engine Displacement.

    Who at Sport Auto actually verifies engine displacement?
    Don't let everything the Germans say pull your hair.

    I personally know of one case where VW shipped a car that was proven to be a cheat after a engine tear down. I simply do not trust any magazine claim that their tests are 100% accurate. Im sorry, but they just make a informational read.

    In the case of GM and the Z06 at the track, I dont think that they had to cheat, the motor is too bloody powerful anyway, Its 7 litres, not 6.2, not 5.0 but 7 litres of race car parts and assembly quality that is standard on the new Z06.

    As for your Saurma as God theme,even my aged Andalusian aunt knows that Saurma is no Hans Stuck Jr.

    Magnussen actually IS the new Hans Stuck of the racing world and he has the record to back it up. Even people in the caves of Linares know that!!!

    Re: Corvette NBR record lap PICTURES!!

    If GM wanted to generate hype over their new Z06, I think they've succeeded here. Good job, GM!

    By the way, I'm no real fan of the Vette, I've owned a new one in the past and swore I would never own another one. But, my wife loves them.

    Re: Corvette NBR record lap PICTURES!!

    he, he, funny... the more credit is given to Magneussen and his driving (which I believe deserves a lot IMO) the less credit to that lap time the Z06 gets The reason for talking so much about Saurma is because he is independant and tries ALL the cars so for eliminating driver factor in the laps times, its a good as it gets. The fact that he may not be as fast as Magnussen or Rohrl is irrelevant.

    Some are careful and reserve judgement until more objective data than factory claims of a company literally dying for good publicity, others for some reason cling like their life depended on it to factory claims and publicity to fill pages of threads and continue were GM left off... I know which side I'm on, thats for sure

    Re: Corvette NBR record lap PICTURES!!

    Donkervoort also gets air at Flugplatz.


    Re: Corvette NBR record lap PICTURES!!

    Flying at the Flugplatz.


    Re: Corvette NBR record lap PICTURES!!

    Quote:
    Carlos from Spain said:
    he, he, funny... the more credit is given to Magneussen and his driving (which I believe deserves a lot IMO) the less credit to that lap time the Z06 gets

    Some are careful and reserve judgement until more objective data than factory claims of a company literally dying for good publicity, others for some reason cling like their life depended on it to factory claims and publicity to fill pages of threads and continue were GM left off... I know which side I'm on, thats for sure



    Carlos you are in denial,maybe a private session with Dr. Phil will help you.

    I think what upsets some people about the Corvette thread is that it upsets their Porsche emotional baggage. Porsche used to be the giant killer, now they are the giants being hunted.

    Corvette builds what is essentially a RS version of their
    car and voila, the lap times it makes are beyond the 997S
    and so some peoples Porsche worlds are turned upside down.
    I suppose that if a US driver had achieved that claimed time
    that the outrage and doubt would be total. Oh yes, why not tar Chevrolet that they are "desperately seeking publicity" so the test must be flawed or faked, thats proof enough that it is, isnt it???

    The Z06 is so different from the other Corvette that Saurma tested that to use Saurmas results from his test to denigrate the factory Z06 results is actually very funny.

    Do you really know just how different that the two models are? Its not just another 100hp with the same versions of run flats. You should really take a look at the actual differences in engineering, parts and layout.The difference is substantial.

    Re: Corvette NBR record lap PICTURES!!

    Quote:
    some peoples Porsche worlds are turned upside down.



    Dude, i'm tired of this drivel. Just because we're not blindly buying GM's bullshit, doesn't mean we're blinded by porsche fever.

    Re: Corvette NBR record lap PICTURES!!

    Quote:
    SoCalHoosier said:
    ???
    I think it's impressive in a GT3 RS so I think it's even more impressive in a car that costs nearly half the price.




    Sorry, maybe I wasn't clear enough with my post. I wasn't trying to say that the Vette didn't post an impressive time.
    What I was trying to say was that I was expecting more after all this talk of 7:40 flat. Also, the GT3 RS is down in power compared to the Vette by 125 hp. I guess the run-flats on the Z06 might have hurt the time.
    I think that we can assume that when the 997 GT3 RS is released, it will be more than 0.1 seconds faster than the current GT3 RS around the 'ring, and it will still be way down on power compared to the Z06. That just shows that there are many factors other than raw power that come into play at the track.

    Even so, I don't think anyone can argue about the Z06's appeal. At present it is nearly impossible to find a better performance bang for the buck .

    Re: Corvette NBR record lap PICTURES!!

    Brunner, The only drivel is the lack of subject matter knowledge of the doubters and that isnt a personal thing.
    Few europeans know just how much power a 7 liter Corvette engine actually makes, and they know even less of how
    quickly it makes power through out its 7000 rpm range. It revs FAST and makes power nearly INSTANTLY. No waiting.

    The next time you see a GT3 RS pass a C6R Vette at a FIA sanctioned race, please let us know. There is a reason why they race in two different classes and the reasons for that extend into the production car used in Magnussens test and its capabilities.

    Its that simple. Its not a Corvette guy versus Porsche guy thing, its not a GM bullshit thing versus a Sport Auto editors thing.

    Re: Corvette NBR record lap PICTURES!!

    "denial"... "Porsche emotional baggage"... "Porsche worlds turned upside down"... "if a US driver had achieved that claimed time" ...... Jim get a grip GM will pay you anyway don't worry you seem too emotionally involved with american big liter engines... the engine in the Z06 is a great engine but there is more to an engine in a car.


    You are drifting, who is comparing the Z06 to the base model BTW? all we know so far is that factory claimed times of the C6 with Z-51 sport chasis included is 19 seconds bellow Saurma's time, the biggest discrepancy I have ever seem b/w factory vs SportAuto Supertest. Porsche factory claimed times are always only a few seconds bellow Saurma's for example (CGT = only 4 secons diffence, GT3RS = 4 secs, 997S-20mm = 6 secs, 996GT2 = 1 sec)... this puts GM's claims in perspective don't you think? Those are the facts so far. Now GM does a 7:43 with the Z06 for the press, lets see what the Z06 really does with Saurma and compare that to Saurma's other sportcar times... that all, the rest is drivel as Brunner said.

    Re: Corvette NBR record lap PICTURES!!

    Quote:
    Carlos from Spain said:
    "denial"... "Porsche emotional baggage"... "Porsche worlds turned upside down"... "if a US driver had achieved that claimed time" ...... Jim get a grip GM will pay you anyway don't worry


    How is comparing the Z06 to the base model BTW? all we know so far is that factory claimed times of the C6 with Z-51 sport chasis included is 19 seconds bellow Saurma's time, the biggest discrepancy I have ever seem b/w factory vs SportAuto Supertest. Porsche factory claimed times are always only a few seconds bellow Saurma's for example (CGT = only 4 secons diffence, GT3RS = 4 secs, 997S-20mm = 6 secs, 996GT2 = 1 sec)... this puts GM's claims in perspective don't you think? Those are the facts so far. Now GM does a 7:43 with the Z06 for the press, lets see what the Z06 really does with Saurma and compare that to Saurma's other sportcar times...



    Ok Carlos, I see what you are getting at. Do you have any
    info about the particular car Saurma used to test? His lap time was way off from what older Corvettes had done.

    I can assure you that niether GM or any company affiliated with them is not paying me. If you want to, write to Bob Lutz or Dave Hill and tell them to cut me a check!

    The Corvette subject is just interesting. For so long they were just awful and non competitive. Now they are actually trying to improve. Their FIA racing program and 7 liter Z06 is proof of that and the coming Blue Devil is more so.

    But both of those cars are just place holders for the all new Corvette wich will be available with a optional 7.2 liter dohc all alloy V8 that has a 8200 rpm redline and 700hp.

    Personally, I prefer cars with the engine behind me and
    the pedals hinged from the floor.

    Re: Corvette NBR record lap PICTURES!!

    Quote:
    JimFlat6 said:For so long they were just awful and non competitive. Now they are actually trying to improve. Their FIA racing program and 7 liter Z06 is proof of that and the coming Blue Devil is more so.



    This I completely agree with you Jim. GM is really turning Vette around into more handling car and this is comendable. The vettes of today have nothing in comon with two generations back contrary to many's beliefs that itsill judge vettes by their past. And they are making great progress and best of all throwing in more competiotion that will force other makers to improve as well. I like the fact also that Vette offers factory perfromance upgrades and kits at a very reasonable price as should be with sportcars while other makers charge you a kindney of your back. I'm just very careful with lap times and factory claims and hype, thats all.

    Now, if you will excuse me, its Saturday night here and I have a batchelor party to go to!

    Re: Corvette NBR record lap PICTURES!!

    Quote:
    Carlos from Spain said:
    Nick, according to your view of things that leaves Ferrari in the worst of places compared to the Z06's performance and its pricetag OUCH!


    I must point out that no one here is saying that GM is "lying" much less the driver Magnussen. I hope by now you know enough to realise that a lap time over a 20km course is dependant on many factors which can be controlled by the manufacturer in factory tests, while the car still being reasonably stock. Thats why a manufacturer can achieve a certain lap time without lying about what the chronometer indicated but far from the lap time achievable by a universal driver under standarised enviroment for all makes. So the lap time is real but non usable for comparaitve or reference purposes. See the difference? you can only compare times made by same driver under same circumstances that all, factory makes such as these are just propaganda... remember the sub 8min BMW-M5 claims, or the Aston AMV8 sub min claims?... no one is denying the Z06 its credit but lets stay as objectively posible in the data thats all, lets wait till Saurma gets a hold of the Z06 and the Z06 prove what it can do compared to other sportcars. A thread of 10 pages on just specualtion and claims based on rumors was bad enough



    What you fail to recognize is Ferrari is not only about performance which Porsche is. Most will tell you they buy Porsche because of performance. Styling and quality are secondary and clearly de-emphasized by Porsche ( I am still uncertain if the have a styling dept. )

    Ferrari is the whole package. Performance, styling, exclusivity, sensory intimatcy and yes today quality. Thus comparing the Corvette to the Ferrari is like comparing the Dunkerfort (which beat the CGT around the Ring by 20 sec) with the CGT. On the other hand comparing a Corvette with a 997s, TT, GT3 is appropriate since both cars are judged by the same criteria.

    Re: Corvette NBR record lap PICTURES!!

    Quote:
    nberry said:
    Ferrari is the whole package. Performance, styling, exclusivity, sensory intimatcy and yes today quality. Thus comparing the Corvette to the Ferrari is like comparing the Dunkerfort (which beat the CGT around the Ring by 20 sec) with the CGT. On the other hand comparing a Corvette with a 997s, TT, GT3 is appropriate since both cars are judged by the same criteria.



    It's ironic that you keep saying people here are blind to certain aspects of porsche and yet you live in a complete dream world when it comes to ferrari.

    Re: Corvette NBR record lap PICTURES!!

    Quote:
    nberry said:
    What you fail to recognize is Ferrari is not only about performance which Porsche is. Most will tell you they buy Porsche because of performance. Styling and quality are secondary and clearly de-emphasized by Porsche ( I am still uncertain if the have a styling dept. )

    Ferrari is the whole package. Performance, styling, exclusivity, sensory intimatcy and yes today quality. Thus comparing the Corvette to the Ferrari is like comparing the Dunkerfort (which beat the CGT around the Ring by 20 sec) with the CGT. On the other hand comparing a Corvette with a 997s, TT, GT3 is appropriate since both cars are judged by the same criteria.



    Haha, stilling trolling around in your usual style.
    Styling and quality are secondary to Porsche?
    Ferrari is the whole package?
    LoL. What's life like on Mars?
    Must be low on oxygen

    Taste cannot be measured and quantified, and you may like or dislike Porsche's design, but claiming that Porsche is not about styling and quality is probably the lamest argument I have heard in here in a long time.
    It's like claiming Ferrari isn't about speed or handling.

    Come on Nick, your pro-Ferrari/anti-Porsche campaign one-liners are wearing thin.
    I'm pretty sure you stay just as updated as anyone in here - so why dont you keep a leash on your clearly emotional and embarrasingly Ferrari-biased comments and throw us a couple of rational arguments.
    You know...just to surprise us.

    And let me know when your 430 has done 80,000 km (appr.55,000 miles) like my 986. Then you can start talking about the "whole package."
    Whoops, I forgot. A Ferrari is near worthless after it passes 10,000 miles...
    Yup, it is truly "the whole depreciation package".


    Here's a new signature for you:
    "If you like depreciation, ostentation and not driving the car, buy a Ferrari.

     
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