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    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    Carlos from Spain:

    You sound like those that wanna argue that 3 series coupe is better than a 911 because its cheaper, got more range, and has more seats  ...

    You don't have to know too much to already know that the Taycan will be the best EV "money can buy today" because it wont be even close, which is word for word what Markus just said. You can argue about number of seats and pricetag for a particular case, but that is besides the point.

    Carlos, there is no just one dimension.

    For me, a Tesla 3 is far better than my (coming next week) MC 720s when I need to transport more than two people.

    For me, a VW Golf+ is much better than my S 63 AMG, when I need to go shopping.

    For me, a Tesla X is far better than Taycan when 4 people would like to travel more than 100 km.

    There is not the best car. If you decide which car you buy and use always the N-ring time than you maybe would buy a wrong family car. I have thought the same way years ago. I thought I need a Panamera as a daily car or a car for business trips because Panamera is so quick and fast and performs better on twisties. Two years ago I bought an Audi S8, far less sporty car than Panamera but miles away in comfort and highway driving (where I use the car for more than 90%).


    --

    AM


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    Josef:
    ALDO:
    Josef:

    I am sure they will be bigger, i.e. more leg room

    Smiley 

    Ok, maybe not smiley Let's wait en see. I just think the leg room in the S Coupé is minimal.

    so it is in Taycan Smiley

     


    --

    AM


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    ALDO:
    Carlos from Spain:

    You sound like those that wanna argue that 3 series coupe is better than a 911 because its cheaper, got more range, and has more seats  ...

    You don't have to know too much to already know that the Taycan will be the best EV "money can buy today" because it wont be even close, which is word for word what Markus just said. You can argue about number of seats and pricetag for a particular case, but that is besides the point.

    Carlos, there is no just one dimension.

    For me, a Tesla 3 is far better than my (coming next week) MC 720s when I need to transport more than two people.

    This is what you use your S 63 for... Smiley

    For me, a VW Golf+ is much better than my S 63 AMG, when I need to go shopping.

    Why? Smiley

    For me, a Tesla X is far better than Taycan when 4 people would like to travel more than 100 km.

    Then, I'd use an Urus...a G63...whatever...why an EV? Smiley

    There is not the best car. If you decide which car you buy and use always the N-ring time than you maybe would buy a wrong family car. I have thought the same way years ago. I thought I need a Panamera as a daily car or a car for business trips because Panamera is so quick and fast and performs better on twisties. Two years ago I bought an Audi S8, far less sporty car than Panamera but miles away in comfort and highway driving (where I use the car for more than 90%).

    For me, the only sense an EV makes is in the city, to go from A to B and vice versa.

    You guys don't have fuel in your blood but electricity. Smiley


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Lamborghini Huracan Performante (May 2019), Mercedes E63 S AMG Edition 1 (2018), Mercedes C63 S AMG Cab (2019), Range Rover Evoque Si4 Black Edition (2019)


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    RC:
    ALDO:
    Carlos from Spain:

    You sound like those that wanna argue that 3 series coupe is better than a 911 because its cheaper, got more range, and has more seats  ...

    You don't have to know too much to already know that the Taycan will be the best EV "money can buy today" because it wont be even close, which is word for word what Markus just said. You can argue about number of seats and pricetag for a particular case, but that is besides the point.

    Carlos, there is no just one dimension.

    For me, a Tesla 3 is far better than my (coming next week) MC 720s when I need to transport more than two people.

    This is what you use your S 63 for... Smiley

    For me, a VW Golf+ is much better than my S 63 AMG, when I need to go shopping.

    Why? Smiley

    For me, a Tesla X is far better than Taycan when 4 people would like to travel more than 100 km.

    Then, I'd use an Urus...a G63...whatever...why an EV? Smiley

    There is not the best car. If you decide which car you buy and use always the N-ring time than you maybe would buy a wrong family car. I have thought the same way years ago. I thought I need a Panamera as a daily car or a car for business trips because Panamera is so quick and fast and performs better on twisties. Two years ago I bought an Audi S8, far less sporty car than Panamera but miles away in comfort and highway driving (where I use the car for more than 90%).

    For me, the only sense an EV makes is in the city, to go from A to B and vice versa.

    You guys don't have fuel in your blood but electricity. Smiley

    Just stupid examples. I mean a Golf could be better than a car 10 x more expensive. It just reflects the need.

     


    --

    AM


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    I have stated it several times before that the Taycan is Porsche’s new 911, in concept and in spirit.  Current battery technology especially using a skateboard configuration isn’t ideal for a sports car, it more suits crossovers and sedans.  Porsche took advantage of this and the current market trends away from two cars to made a sedan its new EV sports car.  This is one vehicle that will prove tempting to many. 


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    maybe I will buy a Taycan, not a first year production car. For me a cool car, as I have seen and as I have heard.
    I do not need to travel so much with more than two people. I commute daily about max 120 km (95%), normally only 10 km.


    --

    AM


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    Initially I had a deposit for the Taycan, I thought finally I can buy a decent EV.

    But after ordering the Panamera Turbo S, I canceled. The Panamera just does everything better no matter the metric.

    EV is still in infancy an I don't need the 'cool' factor to have the first cars.

    Taycan will be in it's first generation, Porsche will fix whatever is wrong with the .2. I can wait for the .2.

     


    --

     

     


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    Whoopsy:

    Initially I had a deposit for the Taycan, I thought finally I can buy a decent EV.

    But after ordering the Panamera Turbo S, I canceled. The Panamera just does everything better no matter the metric.

    EV is still in infancy an I don't need the 'cool' factor to have the first cars.

    Taycan will be in it's first generation, Porsche will fix whatever is wrong with the .2. I can wait for the .2.

     

    You made the right decision. With our other cars in your stable and your perceived use of the sportiness in your cars, range would be a huge issue if your push these enough to have fun. For that application, EV are not ready.

    Optioned correctly, a Taycan “Turbo S” for $160-180k that will indeed be the best EV currently on the planet when it comes out, but that to use properly will have less than 100 miles of range, and will be obsolete after a couple of years is a tough proposition for anyone.

    A sport EV should have a minimum of 150kw battery, and probably more like 200kw if you intend to drive some distance.


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    Why would you want to drive a Golf? Smiley I get your point but I don't want to. Smiley


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Lamborghini Huracan Performante (May 2019), Mercedes E63 S AMG Edition 1 (2018), Mercedes C63 S AMG Cab (2019), Range Rover Evoque Si4 Black Edition (2019)


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    Whoopsy:

    Initially I had a deposit for the Taycan, I thought finally I can buy a decent EV.

    But after ordering the Panamera Turbo S, I canceled. The Panamera just does everything better no matter the metric.

    EV is still in infancy an I don't need the 'cool' factor to have the first cars.

    Taycan will be in it's first generation, Porsche will fix whatever is wrong with the .2. I can wait for the .2.

     

    Smiley Makes sense.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Lamborghini Huracan Performante (May 2019), Mercedes E63 S AMG Edition 1 (2018), Mercedes C63 S AMG Cab (2019), Range Rover Evoque Si4 Black Edition (2019)


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    CGX car nut:

    I have stated it several times before that the Taycan is Porsche’s new 911, in concept and in spirit.  Current battery technology especially using a skateboard configuration isn’t ideal for a sports car, it more suits crossovers and sedans.  Porsche took advantage of this and the current market trends away from two cars to made a sedan its new EV sports car.  This is one vehicle that will prove tempting to many. 

    Indeed, very tempting. That’s until people start driving and using them (once they pass the original sticker shock), realizing the usable range is small and the charging network is inexistant, they will share their experience, and the wait list will vanish, killing the speculators in the process and 2 years later when Porsche releases the Taycan update (they will have to to try competitive in a fast moving EV space), resale values will tank dramatically. And that’s assuming Porsche made very little mistakes on the first generation of a brand new type of car (but Porsche is perfect, right? Smiley).

    I would advise anyone thinking about a Taycan to do a short term lease (24 to 36 months) and not to pay cash or finance the car.


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    ALDO:
    Carlos from Spain:

    You sound like those that wanna argue that 3 series coupe is better than a 911 because its cheaper, got more range, and has more seats  ...

    You don't have to know too much to already know that the Taycan will be the best EV "money can buy today" because it wont be even close, which is word for word what Markus just said. You can argue about number of seats and pricetag for a particular case, but that is besides the point.

    Carlos, there is no just one dimension.

    For me, a Tesla 3 is far better than my (coming next week) MC 720s when I need to transport more than two people.

    For me, a VW Golf+ is much better than my S 63 AMG, when I need to go shopping.

    For me, a Tesla X is far better than Taycan when 4 people would like to travel more than 100 km.

    There is not the best car. If you decide which car you buy and use always the N-ring time than you maybe would buy a wrong family car. I have thought the same way years ago. I thought I need a Panamera as a daily car or a car for business trips because Panamera is so quick and fast and performs better on twisties. Two years ago I bought an Audi S8, far less sporty car than Panamera but miles away in comfort and highway driving (where I use the car for more than 90%).

    That is not what I meant, sure there are going to certain specific cases were different vehicles will be better than others, on a car does not fit all needs and expectations, that is why I said "particular case" but overall the best EV on the market today will be the Taycan for now, it is in another league than the rest, it will have better real life performance, will be the sportiest and best handling, will have the highest engineering standards, will have the best interior quality and luxury, etc.


    --

    ⇒ Carlos - Porsche 991 Carrera GTS


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    Hi all!

    Regarding leasing ... I just checked a 992 leasing directly at Porsche  ... the leasing factor is 1,7 (zero deposit / 36m).

    I guess their leasing factor on Taycan will be not lower than a 992 ... for sure .... rather 1,8 than 1,7.

    This is terrible high ... at the moment my i8 has a factor of fair 1,3 .... you can get an i3 with even 0,95 factor (including subsidies).  

     

    Any ideas how to lease Taycan with a reasonable factor?


    --

     

    -----------------------------------

     

    BMW i8 * RRS 


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    As you said Carlos, specific cases... The Taycan will have everything you listed, but it will also have the lowest real life range, the highest price, the worst depreciation in $ terms and a non upgradable driving aids/autonomous driving feature 5 years behind the best on the market now...


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    I expect the lease for a Taycan to be on the expensive side, because residual values will be unknown.  Same as with Tesla


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    SciFrog:

    As you said Carlos, specific cases... The Taycan will have everything you listed, but it will also have the lowest real life range, the highest price, the worst depreciation in $ terms and a non upgradable driving aids/autonomous driving feature 5 years behind the best on the market now...

    Maybe but a person buying the Taycan doesn't have autonomous driving in their top priorities, the "zombie driving" in a "herd" is not why they buy a Taycan for, they enjoy being the driver themselves and driving the car. I know I wouldn't use it 99% of the time, I'd rather be waterboarded than to have to go places like that, driving is still a joy and fun for me.

    Bang for the buck and budget is not a top priority either, they are OK paying more to enjoy a higher end car, just like a Bentley buyer.

    As to the range, that is unknown, you know as much as I, that is not much yet about the real range, but again just like with sportscar drivers they are OK trading lower range for better driving performance than a long range diesel engine for example.


    --

    ⇒ Carlos - Porsche 991 Carrera GTS


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    SciFrog:
    Whoopsy:

    Initially I had a deposit for the Taycan, I thought finally I can buy a decent EV.

    But after ordering the Panamera Turbo S, I canceled. The Panamera just does everything better no matter the metric.

    EV is still in infancy an I don't need the 'cool' factor to have the first cars.

    Taycan will be in it's first generation, Porsche will fix whatever is wrong with the .2. I can wait for the .2.

     

    You made the right decision. With our other cars in your stable and your perceived use of the sportiness in your cars, range would be a huge issue if your push these enough to have fun. For that application, EV are not ready.

    Optioned correctly, a Taycan “Turbo S” for $160-180k that will indeed be the best EV currently on the planet when it comes out, but that to use properly will have less than 100 miles of range, and will be obsolete after a couple of years is a tough proposition for anyone.

    A sport EV should have a minimum of 150kw battery, and probably more like 200kw if you intend to drive some distance.

     

    It's more like EV does't make sense period.

    With my e-Hybrid it ca do everything Ann EV can do, plus more, and without the need to find a charger,

    I can still plug it in like a EV, but I have the flexibility of NOT plugging it in and can refill the car with gasoline.

    As I said before, a hybrid is the best of both world right now.

     


    --

     

     


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    Agree.  Hybrids combining ICEs with electric motors for low RPM torque fill is ideal.  Unfortunately, regulators have a different agenda and to facilitate our individual happiness is not their goal.  Look at the news today where the EU is taking action against Volkswagen Group, Mercedes, and BMW for collusion on evading emission standards.  While clean air and water are important attributes, enacting regulation that promotes these goals while still supporting economic activity is desirous versus onerous forms of regulation.  For many years, the regulators of the EU looked away as manufacturers had a bit of latitude in conforming to emission regulations.  Suddenly a few years ago, that changed.  Note, I do not condone Volkswagen Group's deceptive emission practices but I do understand why the company conducted itself in a criminal manner.  

    Under the new stricter regulatory environment, ICEs are headed for the rubbish bin as EVs are the only economically efficient solution to meet the burdensome standards. 


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    Carlos from Spain:
    SciFrog:

    As you said Carlos, specific cases... The Taycan will have everything you listed, but it will also have the lowest real life range, the highest price, the worst depreciation in $ terms and a non upgradable driving aids/autonomous driving feature 5 years behind the best on the market now...

    Maybe but a person buying the Taycan doesn't have autonomous driving in their top priorities, the "zombie driving" in a "herd" is not why they buy a Taycan for, they enjoy being the driver themselves and driving the car. I know I wouldn't use it 99% of the time, I'd rather be waterboarded than to have to go places like that, driving is still a joy and fun for me.

    Bang for the buck and budget is not a top priority either, they are OK paying more to enjoy a higher end car, just like a Bentley buyer.

    As to the range, that is unknown, you know as much as I, that is not much yet about the real range, but again just like with sportscar drivers they are OK trading lower range for better driving performance than a long range diesel engine for example.


    --

    ⇒ Carlos - Porsche 991 Carrera GTS

    How many base V6 Macans  are there out there? I bet less than 5% has ever gone more off road than a grass lawnor a gravel road and the sporty power isn't (obviously) an important thing. Driving a Porsche is. Outside of maybe 30% of the Taycan "Turbo" drivers the vast majority of owners are part of the "zombie driving herd". 


    --

    Past-President, Porsche Club of America - Upper Canada Region


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    SciFrog:

    The best EV with the highest price tag with a Porsche badge, makes sense. So $130k for a Taycan “turbo” with no options?

    Might be even more - German price will be approx 165k USD. A premium product for sure, not for everybody but those who want the best EV car Smiley


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    SciFrog:

    As you said Carlos, specific cases... The Taycan will have everything you listed, but it will also have the lowest real life range, the highest price, the worst depreciation in $ terms and a non upgradable driving aids/autonomous driving feature 5 years behind the best on the market now...

    I am not sure.... It will be best inall categories, except for price.  


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    RC:

    Why would you want to drive a Golf? Smiley I get your point but I don't want to. Smiley

    The Golf R is one of the best cars I've ever owned.. Literally a toy on the road.IMG_2075.jpg

     


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    I like the Golf as well. Maybe not the most exciting car in its own category, but definitely one of the best. The GTI has always been a great car, the R as well, but I miss the 6 cylinder, especially the sound. Though neither very powerful nor very economical, the R with four cylinders is nothing more than a souped-up GTI with AWD for me.


    --

    We're at the point where you can be the fastest or just sound like you're the fastest.



    The secret of life is to admire without desiring.


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    True. However, mine is modified (ECU & exhaust 400hp, suspension, brakes, wheels and few cosmetic touches) and its just so much more fun to drive. kiss

    IMG_2077.jpg


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    Above posts are a bit off topic, but I absolutely agree about the R and GTI.  A friend lent me his GTI for a weekend recently, and I blasted around some fun country roads.  Cool sound, and quick acceleration up to a point. And an R with 400 hp, wow! kiss


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    ha:
    RC:

    Why would you want to drive a Golf? Smiley I get your point but I don't want to. Smiley

    The Golf R is one of the best cars I've ever owned.. Literally a toy on the road.IMG_2075.jpg

     

     

    Hehe I have one too and I love the damn thing also!!

    But for toy status nothing beats my 4C


    --

     

     


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    MKSGR:
    SciFrog:

    As you said Carlos, specific cases... The Taycan will have everything you listed, but it will also have the lowest real life range, the highest price, the worst depreciation in $ terms and a non upgradable driving aids/autonomous driving feature 5 years behind the best on the market now...

    I am not sure.... It will be best inall categories, except for price.  

    Price, range, efficiency, infotainment and autonomous driving will be behind... And even acceleration except maybe for the top top model... Smiley that’s a lot to leave behind for the price they will be asking... and the car will be obsolete much faster than their regular models, epic depreciations coming. Like you said, it is all about choices. That said in two years, a used Taycan will be an amazing value for short ride sporty commutes.


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    Whoopsy:

    But for toy status nothing beats my 4C

    Smiley

    Have you had a drive in a Giulia Quadrifoglio? I'd read lots of glowing reviews from owners with a lot of other exotica in their garages who are using the Alfa as their DD.  I have been interested in this car since they were launched a couple of years ago but held off buying one. Thanks to the sluggish new car market I was offered a deal on a new car that was simply too good to turn down. This car is such fun and the Ferrari built engine is an absolute gem.

     


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    Whoopsy:
    SciFrog:
    Whoopsy:

    Initially I had a deposit for the Taycan, I thought finally I can buy a decent EV.

    But after ordering the Panamera Turbo S, I canceled. The Panamera just does everything better no matter the metric.

    EV is still in infancy an I don't need the 'cool' factor to have the first cars.

    Taycan will be in it's first generation, Porsche will fix whatever is wrong with the .2. I can wait for the .2.

     

    You made the right decision. With our other cars in your stable and your perceived use of the sportiness in your cars, range would be a huge issue if your push these enough to have fun. For that application, EV are not ready.

    Optioned correctly, a Taycan “Turbo S” for $160-180k that will indeed be the best EV currently on the planet when it comes out, but that to use properly will have less than 100 miles of range, and will be obsolete after a couple of years is a tough proposition for anyone.

    A sport EV should have a minimum of 150kw battery, and probably more like 200kw if you intend to drive some distance.

     

    It's more like EV does't make sense period.

    With my e-Hybrid it ca do everything Ann EV can do, plus more, and without the need to find a charger,

    I can still plug it in like a EV, but I have the flexibility of NOT plugging it in and can refill the car with gasoline.

    As I said before, a hybrid is the best of both world right now.

     

    For me it is the direct opposite and I just can't see the point with hybrids. Either get an EV or otherwise get a petrol car.

    I enjoy the flexibility of never having to fill up my car and always wake up every morning with more than enough range to cover my daily needs. It's such an eye opener when you get used to it, but to understand you need to experience it for a few weeks. You need to have really extreme driving patterns to not gain the benefit if you have the ability to plugin overnight or at work at least a few times per week or even better having a  wall charger in your garage and being plugged in every night.

    I'm sure we will see many positive reports in here from coming Taycan owners when they start to realize the real world benefits and experience the instant torque in an EV. When these positive words are coming, the ball will start to roll faster.


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    SciFrog:
    MKSGR:
    SciFrog:

    As you said Carlos, specific cases... The Taycan will have everything you listed, but it will also have the lowest real life range, the highest price, the worst depreciation in $ terms and a non upgradable driving aids/autonomous driving feature 5 years behind the best on the market now...

    I am not sure.... It will be best inall categories, except for price.  

    Price, range, efficiency, infotainment and autonomous driving will be behind... And even acceleration except maybe for the top top model... Smiley that’s a lot to leave behind for the price they will be asking... and the car will be obsolete much faster than their regular models, epic depreciations coming. Like you said, it is all about choices. That said in two years, a used Taycan will be an amazing value for short ride sporty commutes.

    I don't think so. The Tesla does not have an "autonomous drive". It has some features that are low cost and low quality and that cause fatal accidents as many buyers are stupid and believe they can rely on these systems. Infotainment of Porsche will most likely be at least on par if not better. For example: how is the Burmester sound system in the Tesla? Non existent... Tesla is just cheap software, the hardware sucks in all categories.

    And certainly, the Taycan will be by far superior to any Tesla in terms of driving dynamics. Tesla is cheaper. But that's all of the advantage, if you don't need a larger car at the price of getting an ugly minivan.


     
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