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    Re: I need help --2wd or 4wd is there really a differenc

    Whoopsy:

    People KNOWS rwd 911s are a handful, they give the heavy ass a big berth, they won't play at or around the limit, knowing once you go past it there is no return. On the other hand with the better traction of the awd, people thinks the limit is higher, it isn't, the awd just let you play closer to the limit, this gives drivers a false sense of security.

    In RWD there is also more feel of what the car does and thus earlier warning. On the AWD the transition is more sudden. When I drive a Turbo fast on curvy roads I feel that the car takes over from me and does things effectively but without as much driver control as the RWD.

    However, on the road and up to say, 7 or 8/10 of performance that most people use, the AWD 911 is the easier and safer car.


    --

    "Form follows function"


    Re: I need help --2wd or 4wd is there really a differenc

     Last year I was invited to the Porsche World Road Show in Mosport Park, had the chance to drive a PDK 2S and PDK 4S back to back.  

    I am no racer car driver, in fact, I would say my racing skill is average or slightly above average. In the 2S I think I am using only 7/10 of the car but that's about the max I dare to go, I know in my heart the car is much more capable, but it just keep giving me the nervous feeling around turns that the tail is going to step out. Could be I gave it too much respect because of the 911's historic reputation.

    I drove the 4S next, it was a much more confident inspiring car, I was a lot faster, I'd say I got to at least 8-8.5/10 of the car, it gave me a planted feel around corners, no drama, no tail lightening feeling, it's like driving on rails. On corner exits, the car just rocket out while I had a couple of wiggles in the 2S, I can just bury my foot in the gas pedal right at apex and the car would not give me any complaints.

    Next car I drove was a PDK Cayman S, I have to say, it's the best handling car, the car is like a go kart,  no drama no nothing, gliding from turn to turn, extremely agile, traction is extremely good, I pretty much full gas it out of corners around the same spot as the 4S. Later that day I was in a coned parking lot course in the same car, and that only reaffirms my first impression on the big track. 


    Re: I need help --2wd or 4wd is there really a differenc

    You put it very well

    However, the Cayman/Boxster don't offer as much traction out of turns as the 911, I think. However, their turn-in is more natural and you don't have to give it much thought and preparation as in the 911 and the mid corner transition is more balanced. One area where the M-E models are inferior from my experience, is driving in pouring rain. In the 911 I feel more in command, although still it needs a lot of attention.


    --

    "Form follows function"


    Re: I need help --2wd or 4wd is there really a differenc

    Whoopsy:

    I drove the 4S next, it was a much more confident inspiring car, I was a lot faster, I'd say I got to at least 8-8.5/10 of the car, it gave me a planted feel around corners, no drama, no tail lightening feeling, it's like driving on rails. On corner exits, the car just rocket out while I had a couple of wiggles in the 2S, I can just bury my foot in the gas pedal right at apex and the car would not give me any complaints.


    That is a very interesting topic. First of all, I do believe that the planted feeling of the 4S is due to the higher weight on the front axle, the wider track on the rear and the accompanying suspension setup.  That nervous character of the 2S seems to be an immanent feature, not sure how much of it is specifically designed in or out of it. I would be curious to which extend the character of these two models is down to specific suspension setup and would love to know how the GTS (with 2WD but wider rear track) would fair in this regard.

    On dry asphalt, only the turbocharged models should have a real issue with traction and that is where RC´s comment comes into account. I don´t believe that the numerous accidents he has seen are due to the AWD itself but a combination of wide tires, comparatively low weight and huge performance abilities. Of course, since he mentioned aquaplaning [hydroplaning], a sportscar will always be more prone to that than a heavy executive limousine.


    Re: I need help --2wd or 4wd is there really a differenc

    Ferdie:
    That is a very interesting topic. First of all, I do believe that the planted feeling of the 4S is due to the higher weight on the front axle, the wider track on the rear and the accompanying suspension setup.  That nervous character of the 2S seems to be an immanent feature, not sure how much of it is specifically designed in or out of it. I would be curious to which extend the character of these two models is down to specific suspension setup and would love to know how the GTS (with 2WD but wider rear track) would fair in this regard.

    The 2WD 997.2 feels more planted at the front compared to 2WD 997.1, the front of which feels lighter and more floating. In this case the only difference I could think of is the geometry as all other components are the same.

    But in the case of the 4WD besides the extra weight on the front axle,even that  minimum 5% torque in the straight line going to the front increases the bite of the front tyres. Hence the more planted feel.

    As to hydroplaning, I can tell you from first hand that 4WD on a Porsche sportscar cannot save you. The combination of 305 width tyres, maximum 7mm tread, low weight and potential for fast acceleration and high speed is a classic recipe for disaster on standing water.


    --

    "Form follows function"


    Re: I need help --2wd or 4wd is there really a differenc

    reginos:

    You put it very well

    However, the Cayman/Boxster don't offer as much traction out of turns as the 911, I think. However, their turn-in is more natural and you don't have to give it much thought and preparation as in the 911 and the mid corner transition is more balanced. One area where the M-E models are inferior from my experience, is driving in pouring rain. In the 911 I feel more in command, although still it needs a lot of attention.


    --

    "Form follows function"

     

     

    No it doesn't, but since the Cayman is so balanced I boot it so it drift out and catch it, pretty much do it on purpose because it was so much fun driving the Cayman.

    I almost bought one back then, but my wife vetoed :( Reason being how often I go to the track? She was right. 


    Re: I need help --2wd or 4wd is there really a differenc

     For sheer sport car driving enjoyment, there is nothing like a mid-engine sport car.


    --

     


    Re: I need help --2wd or 4wd is there really a differenc

    Ferdie:

    That is a very interesting topic. First of all, I do believe that the planted feeling of the 4S is due to the higher weight on the front axle, the wider track on the rear and the accompanying suspension setup.  That nervous character of the 2S seems to be an immanent feature, not sure how much of it is specifically designed in or out of it. I would be curious to which extend the character of these two models is down to specific suspension setup and would love to know how the GTS (with 2WD but wider rear track) would fair in this regard.

    Ferdie - Firstly, I've always chosen RWD over AWD as I very much enjoy 'playing with the tail' when circumstances safely permit..Smiley

    This was much easier to achieve in my C2S than it is with my current GTS.  Or should I say it was easier to achieve at lower speeds.  The GTS will step out eventually and is very responsive to steering correction/throttle control, but the higher speeds necessary do make the process that bit riskier!

    I think the suspension set-up and the wider rear track are contributing factors, but I also think the Bridgestone tyres may have something to do with it.. especially in the wet...

     


    --

    "Things turn out best for people who make the best of the way things turn out."


    Re: I need help --2wd or 4wd is there really a differenc

    nberry:

     For sheer sport car driving enjoyment, there is nothing like a mid-engine sport car.

     

     

    Hmm, I forgot last time I agreed with you on a subject, but this this I am Smiley


    Re: I need help --2wd or 4wd is there really a differenc

    John H:

    I think the suspension set-up and the wider rear track are contributing factors, but I also think the Bridgestone tyres may have something to do with it.. especially in the wet...

     

     

    I will second that. I replaced the PS2 with Bridgestones and they are amazing in the wet, and also in cold temperature. 


    Re: I need help --2wd or 4wd is there really a differenc

    I think the "problem" of today's sports cars is, that they offer more and more power to the driver, but at the same time this power is ever easier to retrieve. Of course this is mostly due to electronic aids that are now common in the automotive industry. Depress the throttle fully in a F355 and do the same thing in a 458 in rain mode. In the first case you will probably fly off the street, in the second scenario the vehicle's electronics regulate everything for you. Because of these electronics the 911 Turbo became a lot more controllable. Finally the introduction of the all-wheel-drive offered a whole new potential regarding its allday usability.

    And the saying that the Porsche Turbo models are still more accident-prone than their rear-wheel-driven or normal-aspirated siblings, is in my opinion less a result that the all-wheel-drive simulates a false security to the driver so that AWD encourages him to go beyond firstly his limits and secondly the limits of the vehicle. But it is rather that the Porsche Turbo simply offers such an awful lot of power to which not each and every driver maybe used to. Smiley
     


    --

    The secret of life is to admire without desiring.


    Re: I need help --2wd or 4wd is there really a differenc

    Whoopsy:
    John H:

    I think the suspension set-up and the wider rear track are contributing factors, but I also think the Bridgestone tyres may have something to do with it.. especially in the wet...

     

     

    I will second that. I replaced the PS2 with Bridgestones and they are amazing in the wet, and also in cold temperature. 

    I agree with you after replacing the original PS2 with Bridgestone.

    Only negative compared to PS2, that they are more choppy on high frequency bumps. Bridgestone have stiffer sidewalls. You have noticed that too?


    --

    "Form follows function"


    Re: I need help --2wd or 4wd is there really a differenc

    Rossi:

    is in my opinion less a result that the all-wheel-drive simulates a false security to the driver so that AWD encourages him to go beyond firstly his limits and secondly the limits of the vehicle. But it is rather that the Porsche Turbo simply offers such an awful lot of power to which not each and every driver maybe used to. Smiley

    Your first two points actually prove the last one.  Smiley


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 997 Turbo, BMW X5 M, BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S JCW


    Re: I need help --2wd or 4wd is there really a differenc

     John H:

    This was much easier to achieve in my C2S than it is with my current GTS.  Or should I say it was easier to achieve at lower speeds.  The GTS will step out eventually and is very responsive to steering correction/throttle control, but the higher speeds necessary do make the process that bit riskier

    Thanks John for the input, I am glad that I bought the GTS as a daily driver.

    Rossi, in Canada I see lots of SUVs and 4WDs in the ditch during snowy days, no doubt too many drivers of 4WDs assume that their car is suppose to be magic on snow. 


    Re: I need help --2wd or 4wd is there really a differenc

    Bitko:

    Rossi, in Canada I see lots of SUVs and 4WDs in the ditch during snowy days, no doubt too many drivers of 4WDs assume that their car is suppose to be magic on snow. 

    The weak link is usually the condition of the tyres.


    --

    "Form follows function"


    Re: I need help --2wd or 4wd is there really a differenc

    reginos:

    I agree with you after replacing the original PS2 with Bridgestone.

    Only negative compared to PS2, that they are more choppy on high frequency bumps. Bridgestone have stiffer sidewalls. You have noticed that too?

     

     

    Getting technical on me? :) You mean highway expansion joints? Most of the time I had the sports suspension setting on, so I don't think I feel the extra bumps from the stiffer sidewalls.

     


    Re: I need help --2wd or 4wd is there really a differenc

    reginos:
    Bitko:

    Rossi, in Canada I see lots of SUVs and 4WDs in the ditch during snowy days, no doubt too many drivers of 4WDs assume that their car is suppose to be magic on snow. 

    The weak link is usually the condition of the tyres.

     

    Driver, tires, street condition(s)...many weak links. Smiley


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 997 Turbo, BMW X5 M, BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S JCW


    Re: I need help --2wd or 4wd is there really a differenc

    Whoopsy:
    reginos:

    I agree with you after replacing the original PS2 with Bridgestone.

    Only negative compared to PS2, that they are more choppy on high frequency bumps. Bridgestone have stiffer sidewalls. You have noticed that too?

     

     

    Getting technical on me? :) You mean highway expansion joints? Most of the time I had the sports suspension setting on, so I don't think I feel the extra bumps from the stiffer sidewalls. 

    I mean less than perfect surface on secondary/country  roads, when you can get a number of bumps within a short distance from one another. I noticed that the Michelin absorbed this type of surface more smoothly than Bridgestone. That's the only negative characteristic I have observed after 2.000kms.


    --

    "Form follows function"


    Re: I need help --2wd or 4wd is there really a differenc

    Ah.

    There aren't that many of those roads here, so I can't comment on that as I hardly even drive on those surface. Guess we are lucky that most roads are pretty smooth.

     


    Re: I need help --2wd or 4wd is there really a differenc

     Thank you all so far 

    But now I find Porsche have been listening to this post or are just trying to give people what they want 

    Turns out they are now releasing a carerra4gts 

    So personally I was going to go with the advice for a 2wd gts cabriolet with winter tyres , but I hope to find out soon the price of this new version , so now I think hmm maybe 4gts cabriolet …and I take all your points on there is no substitute to common sense on driving and not driving like a "fool"

    Sometimes marketing strategy can be a little off putting 

    So the rumours were right Mr Bitko , 


    Re: I need help --2wd or 4wd is there really a differenc

    I like the lighter steering weight of a 2WD - it feels much more agile than a 4WD 911.
    --


    RT Moderator 
    - 997.1 C2S GT Silver/Cocoa, -20mm sports suspension/LSD, PSE, short shifter, SportDesign rims, Zuffenhausen collection


    Re: I need help --2wd or 4wd is there really a differenc

    easy_rider911:
    I like the lighter steering weight of a 2WD - it feels much more agile than a 4WD 911.

     

    Yes, true. It is also more fun to drive on the track but you can(almost) always be faster in a 4WD 911 if you're not a pro driver. Both have their advantages and disadvantages.

    I already apologized for doubting the 4 GTS introduction but we really didn't have a clue. There was word of a special edition 4WD model but naming it 4 GTS? How lame of Porsche. The whole Carrera GTS(2WD) description is actually based on the fact that it uses the 4WD wider body but the 4 GTS makes the whole GTS(2WD) description actually a joke.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 997 Turbo, BMW X5 M, BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S JCW


    Re: I need help --2wd or 4wd is there really a differenc

    Simple solution, called it Carrera GTS with AWD. Sidestepping the Carrera 4S GTS issue.

     

    @Porsche: If someone is reading this, do you need a new marketing exec? Call me.


     
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