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    Re: Nürburgring - Tesla vs. Taycan

    MKSGR:
    CGX car nut:
     

    Read this selection from the linked article:

    ”Now Tesla confirmed that its own data shows that the “Model S Plaid” can achieve a 7:20 time:

    Data from our track tests indicates that Model S Plaid can achieve 7:20 at the Nürburgring. 

    With some improvements, 7:05 may be possible when Model S returns next month.

    — Tesla (@Tesla) September 19, 2019

     

    Tesla probably cannot say that it “achieved” the record time because Nürburgring doesn’t allow official times outside of specific racing sessions.”

    That statement is where I take umbrage.  It is unsubstantiated and mere noise.   My brain is probably smaller than the most but with more gyri and sulci.

     

    Their statement probably means they could not finish a single lap and create an artificial time based on segment times or theoretical times. A fake as typical for Tesla. They lie all the time.

    To my knowledge no Tesla manager is sitting in jail, no CEO has been impeached and Tesla hasn't payed $30 bil penalties 


    Re: Nürburgring - Tesla vs. Taycan

    However, Tesla and its CEO each paid a $20 million fine to the SEC for a misleading Tweet.  


    Re: Nürburgring - Tesla vs. Taycan

    CGX car nut:

    However, Tesla and its CEO each paid a $20 million fine to the SEC for a misleading Tweet.  

    Fair enough - still a very different thing compared to instructing the engineering-borg to build defeat devices. 


    Re: Nürburgring - Tesla vs. Taycan

    schmoell:
    CGX car nut:

    However, Tesla and its CEO each paid a $20 million fine to the SEC for a misleading Tweet.  

    Fair enough - still a very different thing compared to instructing the engineering-borg to build defeat devices. 

    Firstly, I have never condoned Volkswagen Group's flaunting of emission standards but I also understand how it happened.  For many years, the EU and its auto industry had a lenient and symbiotic relationship where emission standards were dramatically tightened while the industry was permitted to game the system.  Volkswagen was the first automaker exposed; however, one must also remember that other automakers were found similarly dismissive of the emission regulations.  

    Secondly, security price manipulation is also a serious wrong.  Musk and company have made many, many statements that would have resulted in the removal of that senior executive.  Musk never learned his lesson and has continued to provide the market with misleading information.  Once again, the SEC has been too kind given the level of his antics.  


    Re: Nürburgring - Tesla vs. Taycan

    schmoell:
    CGX car nut:

    However, Tesla and its CEO each paid a $20 million fine to the SEC for a misleading Tweet.  

    Fair enough - still a very different thing compared to instructing the engineering-borg to build defeat devices. 

    Who cares about the old stories now? We are discussing Tesla‘s alleged NBR record here. Please stay focused Smiley


    Re: Nürburgring - Tesla vs. Taycan

     The Taycan time never was officially sanctioned.Only Porsche timed the car at 7.42. It's exactly what Tesla did. They claim their time was 7.20. Neither one official.


    --

    Assume most people are stupid and hope they surprise you.


    Re: Nürburgring - Tesla vs. Taycan

    nberry:

     The Taycan time never was officially sanctioned.Only Porsche timed the car at 7.42. It's exactly what Tesla did. They claim their time was 7.20. Neither one official.

     

    Slight differences. Not much, but it's night and day.

    The Ring do recognizes Porsche's Taycan record and there is also a accompanying uninterrupted video to back it up.

    Model S doesn't have either and was also timed by a spectator and during a session where no official time can be recorded. So even if the Model S ran a 4 min lap time during industry pool session it will still never be recognized. 

    Only way to do it is do like Porsche and rent the whole track for a official timing event. 

     

     


    --

     

     


    Re: Nürburgring - Tesla vs. Taycan

    Apparently the individual that talked about a 7:23 lap time could not see the finish line from were he was standing and guessed the time by the noise of the car going by behind the hill where the finish line was, and nobody knows if it's a full lap or a BTG lap he timed either. But the media was so desperate for a lap time for their click bait headlines that they used that time anyway because there was no other to use since Tesla didn't want to reveal one, wonder why. Instead they offered made up "PlayStation" lap times of 7:20 and 7:05...


    --

    ⇒ Carlos - Porsche 991 Carrera GTS


    Re: Nürburgring - Tesla vs. Taycan

    Carlos from Spain:

    Apparently the individual that talked about a 7:23 lap time could not see the finish line from were he was standing and guessed the time by the noise of the car going by behind the hill where the finish line was, and nobody knows if it's a full lap or a BTG lap he timed either. But the media was so desperate for a lap time for their click bait headlines that they used that time anyway because there was no other to use since Tesla didn't want to reveal one, wonder why. Instead they offered made up "PlayStation" lap times of 7:20 and 7:05...

    If that is true it would be a typical Tesla story.... Smiley


    Re: Nürburgring - Tesla vs. Taycan

    MKSGR:
    Carlos from Spain:

    Apparently the individual that talked about a 7:23 lap time could not see the finish line from were he was standing and guessed the time by the noise of the car going by behind the hill where the finish line was, and nobody knows if it's a full lap or a BTG lap he timed either. But the media was so desperate for a lap time for their click bait headlines that they used that time anyway because there was no other to use since Tesla didn't want to reveal one, wonder why. Instead they offered made up "PlayStation" lap times of 7:20 and 7:05...

    If that is true it would be a typical Tesla story.... Smiley

    From a Jalopnik article:

    Due to the fact the the public is not allowed into the T13 area during any industry session the lap times were taken from the first corner after the start (Nordkehre, or North Corner).

    Because our guy with the watch can’t see over the hill they have to guesstimate when the car finishes by listening to when it goes over the curbs just before the finish line. 


    --

    ⇒ Carlos - Porsche 991 Carrera GTS


    Re: Nürburgring - Tesla vs. Taycan

    Carlos from Spain:
    MKSGR:
    Carlos from Spain:

    Apparently the individual that talked about a 7:23 lap time could not see the finish line from were he was standing and guessed the time by the noise of the car going by behind the hill where the finish line was, and nobody knows if it's a full lap or a BTG lap he timed either. But the media was so desperate for a lap time for their click bait headlines that they used that time anyway because there was no other to use since Tesla didn't want to reveal one, wonder why. Instead they offered made up "PlayStation" lap times of 7:20 and 7:05...

    If that is true it would be a typical Tesla story.... Smiley

    From a Jalopnik article:

    Due to the fact the the public is not allowed into the T13 area during any industry session the lap times were taken from the first corner after the start (Nordkehre, or North Corner).

    Because our guy with the watch can’t see over the hill they have to guesstimate when the car finishes by listening to when it goes over the curbs just before the finish line. 

    It could have been the noise of the breakdown truck driving over the curbs...

    Smiley


    Re: Nürburgring - Tesla vs. Taycan

    If Tesla did not reveal an official time, I think it's end of discussion in this debate already yes

     


    --

    Tim

    2010 997.2 GT3RS;  2008 Cayenne Turbo;  2006 911 Club Coupe;  2016 911 GTS Club Coupe;  2015 Macan S;  2019 Speedster (incoming)
     


    Re: Nürburgring - Tesla vs. Taycan

    schmoell:
    CGX car nut:

    However, Tesla and its CEO each paid a $20 million fine to the SEC for a misleading Tweet.  

    Fair enough - still a very different thing compared to instructing the engineering-borg to build defeat devices. 

    You have a point here, what VW did was just plain stupid. Cheating with software...how dumb are people? It was 100% clear that at some point, people will notice.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Lamborghini Huracan Performante (2019), Mercedes E63 S AMG Edition 1 (2018), Mercedes C63 S AMG Cab (2019), Range Rover Evoque Si4 Black Edition (2019)


    Re: Nürburgring - Tesla vs. Taycan

    That was all Piech. 

    Literally everyone involved was hired or appointed by him. 

     


    --

     

     


    Re: Nürburgring - Tesla vs. Taycan

    Whoopsy:

    That was all Piech. 

    Literally everyone involved was hired or appointed by him. 

     

    The origins lay with the 1970s tax policy enacted in most European counties that reduced tax rates on diesel fuel versus petrol.  This shifted demand to smaller diesel engines and once the EU became aware of the significant emission issues with diesels, they quickly developed hastily conceived regulations that didn't map with economic realities.

    In this environment it is easy to blame Piëch for the Volkswagen Group non-compliance issues but without Piëch, it is doubtful that Volkswagen would have survived until the new millennium.  Financially, Volkswagen was nearly insolvent when Piëch assumed control.   He quickly turned the company around and its prospects increased dramatically.  To undertake these tasks, especially in a moribund labor environment like Germany, a strong personality was required.  Piëch had that in spades as he demanded the best from his people.  When something goes awry, it is always easy to blame the guy who isn't around.  

     


    Re: Nürburgring - Tesla vs. Taycan

    Stop patronizing Piech, he really isn't a good human being nor a great leader. A brilliant engineer he is though. And a egomaniac. I have been saying this for the longest time, even before his death. 

    There is zero acceptable excuse for fucking your cousin's wife. It's family for christ sake. 

    VAG would have survived just fine even without him. He was one of the issues during that failed take-over, as the end result means he will be marginalized within the company while the Porsche side of the family gain even more control, his ego won't allow that. 

    Under his leadership, to be blunt, VAG's product lineup are a mess. He had wanted to rearrange the brand hierarchy to promote his 'babies' so to speak. VW Phaeton anyone? What was he thinking? He wasn't. Audi R8? It's a brilliant car, but because of it Porsche is missing a great mid engine car. 

    Had he still be in power, I will not be surprised one bit for him to try and position one Audi product if not the whole brand to be above Bentley. Or even Bugatti. He is that stupid. And also because of the Audi R8, there is now a whole generation of car fans that wanted the R8 to stick around forever, it is after all a great sporty GT alternative to the Gallardo/Huracan.

    If I were to arrange VAG, I would have split the company into 2 trees, on one side Porsche, the other side Audi.

    Bugatti, Lamborghini, would be under the Porsche side. Porsche takes over all the sports car platform development.

    Bentley would be under Audi, so will VW, Seat, Skoda. Audi will be the primary provider for passenger car platform, sedan and SUV. Audi can safely push up market a bit this way, opening room below it for VW to completely slotted beneath it. 

    My plans really isn't much different than what they are now ended up with after booting Piech out and restructuring. 

     

     

     

     

     


    --

     

     


    Re: Nürburgring - Tesla vs. Taycan

    the R8 is indeed a Frankenstein within the Audi range and obviously cannibalize VW products with impact on both Lambo and PAG. let's see what the next 5 years will bring into the game...interesting time ahead.


    --

    GT Lover, Porsche fan

    991.2 GT3 manual, 991 GT3 2014(sold)

    Cayenne GTS 2014


    Re: Nürburgring - Tesla vs. Taycan

    You have many good points but the R8 "mess" is more of an Audi thing I think, they insisted on having a holy grail model to push their Audi Sport (Quattro) line and yes, the R8 should have been a Porsche and it would have been an amazing product from Porsche because Audi couldn't care less about the R8 after they introduced the second generation. So many people were waiting for the 960 as an alternative to the more exotic Huracan. The major reason I left Porsche is the lack of the 960. I was still hoping but when the GT2 RS showed up and the signal from Porsche was clearly "friss or stirb" (freely translated: take this one because there won't be a 960), I said good-bye. Smiley It was a tough thing for me to do because I knew a lot of people and always had an open ear if I had an issue or needed something, kudos to Porsche for that. I just was fed up with the 911, can't help it. Smiley


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Lamborghini Huracan Performante (2019), Mercedes E63 S AMG Edition 1 (2018), Mercedes C63 S AMG Cab (2019), Range Rover Evoque Si4 Black Edition (2019)


    Re: Nürburgring - Tesla vs. Taycan

    911 as good as it is and as much as I love it will indeed never have a seat in the supercar crowd.

    PAG intention was always to produce a very capable sport car which can compete with the supercars but at the affordable price of a sport car. today ti is not the case anymore...look at 991GT2RS or even the Speedster to name the exclusive versions. Pricing belongs to the upper class.

    992 is even worst for that matter as the entire 911 range is slightly falling into the upper category. I think PAG is in front of a painful adventure.


    --

    GT Lover, Porsche fan

    991.2 GT3 manual, 991 GT3 2014(sold)

    Cayenne GTS 2014


    Re: Nürburgring - Tesla vs. Taycan

    Anyone got any idea about 992 selling numbers? Don't see many around, not that that is an indication, but still....


    --

    997.2 4S / BMW X5 40e / Donkervoort GT 


    Re: Nürburgring - Tesla vs. Taycan

    RC:

    You have many good points but the R8 "mess" is more of an Audi thing I think, they insisted on having a holy grail model to push their Audi Sport (Quattro) line and yes, the R8 should have been a Porsche and it would have been an amazing product from Porsche because Audi couldn't care less about the R8 after they introduced the second generation. So many people were waiting for the 960 as an alternative to the more exotic Huracan. The major reason I left Porsche is the lack of the 960. I was still hoping but when the GT2 RS showed up and the signal from Porsche was clearly "friss or stirb" (freely translated: take this one because there won't be a 960), I said good-bye. Smiley It was a tough thing for me to do because I knew a lot of people and always had an open ear if I had an issue or needed something, kudos to Porsche for that. I just was fed up with the 911, can't help it. Smiley

     

    Audi IS Piech's baby. He is always trying to promote HIS brand to shit on the Porsche side of the family. 

     


    --

     

     


    Re: Nürburgring - Tesla vs. Taycan

    Whoopsy:
    RC:

    You have many good points but the R8 "mess" is more of an Audi thing I think, they insisted on having a holy grail model to push their Audi Sport (Quattro) line and yes, the R8 should have been a Porsche and it would have been an amazing product from Porsche because Audi couldn't care less about the R8 after they introduced the second generation. So many people were waiting for the 960 as an alternative to the more exotic Huracan. The major reason I left Porsche is the lack of the 960. I was still hoping but when the GT2 RS showed up and the signal from Porsche was clearly "friss or stirb" (freely translated: take this one because there won't be a 960), I said good-bye. Smiley It was a tough thing for me to do because I knew a lot of people and always had an open ear if I had an issue or needed something, kudos to Porsche for that. I just was fed up with the 911, can't help it. Smiley

     

    Audi IS Piech's baby. He is always trying to promote HIS brand to shit on the Porsche side of the family. 

     

    Piëch is so evil he is able to continue his work from the other side?  

    Why shouldn't he have supported Audi?  He was unceremoniously dumped from the family business and constantly reminded that he was an under-named member of the family.  Piëch then successfully developed Audi into an international brand and contender in the premium automobile space with innovations like alloy construction, aerodynamics, and all-wheel drive systems; advances that were novel when first introduced and now almost commonplace.  

    He then was tapped to succeed Carl Hahn at Volkswagen were he was able to duplicate his success, transforming Volkswagen from an also-run into an industrial juggernaut.  When he assumed command of Volkswagen, the company was near bankruptcy.   Halle 54 in Wolfsburg, for example, needed a facility utilization of over 105% to even reach breakeven and that assembly faculty was the most important for the group.   

    Under his guidance, Volkswagen returned to ruddy profitability and began the task of consolidation because he understood that 10 million units annual production was required to sustain financial success in the rapidly expanding world economy.  Perhaps he was a bit egomaniacal, but that source of ambition was needed to keep the company afloat.  

    Cars like the Phaeton, while not viewed as financial successes, did make the business case for the Bentley Continental financially viable.  Without the Continental, Bentley would not exist today.  Likewise, the Audi R8 was a required halo product to thrust the company into the ranks of the premium brands.  At that time, Audi needed to mitigate its development costs at Lamborghini and no one envisioned Porsche becoming part of the Volkswagen Group.  

    Piëch did help out the family business when he worked with Wiedeking to expanded Porsche's product portfolio by cost and risk sharing development of the Cayenne with its Volkswagen Touareg and Audi Q7 twins.  Wiedeking, with the blessings of the Porsche familyand flush with the increased profits from the Cayenne, then attempted a takeover of Volkswagen.  Unfortunately, he didn't anticipate the margin calls as the financial crisis of 2008 took place.  Piëch then engineered the rescue of his family's business.  

    Finally, while Piëch's personal life was a bit unsavory including the twelve year relationship with the former wife of his cousin, he didn't exactly kidnap the woman.  She was a willing participant in that relationship.  Unfortunately, human behavior is complex with Abraham Lincoln quipping about, "the better angels of our nature," as a sign that we don't always live a virtuous and pure life.  The Porsche and Piëch family turmoil is not that much different than what happens in a number of families; however, this one is rather public and large fortunes are involved.  


    Re: Nürburgring - Tesla vs. Taycan

    CGX car nut:
    Whoopsy:
    RC:

    You have many good points but the R8 "mess" is more of an Audi thing I think, they insisted on having a holy grail model to push their Audi Sport (Quattro) line and yes, the R8 should have been a Porsche and it would have been an amazing product from Porsche because Audi couldn't care less about the R8 after they introduced the second generation. So many people were waiting for the 960 as an alternative to the more exotic Huracan. The major reason I left Porsche is the lack of the 960. I was still hoping but when the GT2 RS showed up and the signal from Porsche was clearly "friss or stirb" (freely translated: take this one because there won't be a 960), I said good-bye. Smiley It was a tough thing for me to do because I knew a lot of people and always had an open ear if I had an issue or needed something, kudos to Porsche for that. I just was fed up with the 911, can't help it. Smiley

     

    Audi IS Piech's baby. He is always trying to promote HIS brand to shit on the Porsche side of the family. 

     

    Piëch is so evil he is able to continue his work from the other side?  

    Why shouldn't he have supported Audi?  He was unceremoniously dumped from the family business and constantly reminded that he was an under-named member of the family.  Piëch then successfully developed Audi into an international brand and contender in the premium automobile space with innovations like alloy construction, aerodynamics, and all-wheel drive systems; advances that were novel when first introduced and now almost commonplace.  

    He then was tapped to succeed Carl Hahn at Volkswagen were he was able to duplicate his success, transforming Volkswagen from an also-run into an industrial juggernaut.  When he assumed command of Volkswagen, the company was near bankruptcy.   Halle 54 in Wolfsburg, for example, needed a facility utilization of over 105% to even reach breakeven and that assembly faculty was the most important for the group.   

    Under his guidance, Volkswagen returned to ruddy profitability and began the task of consolidation because he understood that 10 million units annual production was required to sustain financial success in the rapidly expanding world economy.  Perhaps he was a bit egomaniacal, but that source of ambition was needed to keep the company afloat.  

    Cars like the Phaeton, while not viewed as financial successes, did make the business case for the Bentley Continental financially viable.  Without the Continental, Bentley would not exist today.  Likewise, the Audi R8 was a required halo product to thrust the company into the ranks of the premium brands.  At that time, Audi needed to mitigate its development costs at Lamborghini and no one envisioned Porsche becoming part of the Volkswagen Group.  

    Piëch did help out the family business when he worked with Wiedeking to expanded Porsche's product portfolio by cost and risk sharing development of the Cayenne with its Volkswagen Touareg and Audi Q7 twins.  Wiedeking, with the blessings of the Porsche familyand flush with the increased profits from the Cayenne, then attempted a takeover of Volkswagen.  Unfortunately, he didn't anticipate the margin calls as the financial crisis of 2008 took place.  Piëch then engineered the rescue of his family's business.  

    Finally, while Piëch's personal life was a bit unsavory including the twelve year relationship with the former wife of his cousin, he didn't exactly kidnap the woman.  She was a willing participant in that relationship.  Unfortunately, human behavior is complex with Abraham Lincoln quipping about, "the better angels of our nature," as a sign that we don't always live a virtuous and pure life.  The Porsche and Piëch family turmoil is not that much different than what happens in a number of families; however, this one is rather public and large fortunes are involved.  

     

    Exactly. He moved over to Audi and taken it under his wings. From there he got to the top of VW.

    He is part of the Porsche clan by bloodline but he was never part of the 'family'. His bad blood pretty much spilled over during the war when the "Porsche" was saved over the 'Piech", specifically, Anton. 

    He had bene scheming since forever to take over and ride over the Porsche side. The affair was part of it, he gets to 'steal' 5% of the shares the way. 

    During the failed takeover attempt, he could have sided with his cousins and made the deal work, but he remained on the sideline to see to it fails, then engineered a 'rescue', a coup in reality to takeover the whole thing himself. He is not even close to being a saint to 'rescue' the family, he is just a ruthless piece of work that pounce on opportunity, especially to spat on the Porsche side of the family.

    Even towards the end, he still want to exert more influence from his side of the family by trying to install Ursula to the board. 

    Seriously, Bentley doesn't need Phaeton to build on. Audi already have a perfectly capable A8 platform. Phaeton is just a pathetic attempt by him to move VW the brand up market.

    And Audi doesn't need a halo car like the R8 to be thrusted upwards, before the R8 appears, they were already mentioned in the same breath with Mercedes and BMW as pretty much equals. The R8 was just a ego car for Piech, pure and simple. He is an insider, he knows what product paths each brand is planning, by pushing through the R8, he blocked the path for Porsche to do a mid engine car outside of the Boxster/Cayman.

     


    --

     

     


    Re: Nürburgring - Tesla vs. Taycan

    the-missile:

    911 as good as it is and as much as I love it will indeed never have a seat in the supercar crowd.

    PAG intention was always to produce a very capable sport car which can compete with the supercars but at the affordable price of a sport car. today ti is not the case anymore...look at 991GT2RS or even the Speedster to name the exclusive versions. Pricing belongs to the upper class.

    992 is even worst for that matter as the entire 911 range is slightly falling into the upper category. I think PAG is in front of a painful adventure.

    Don't get me wrong, I am still attracted to the 911 (who wouldn't be, it is an amazing product from Porsche) but after 10 cars or so, I kind of got bored and wanted something new. I was so hot for the "960", especially since I thought it would borrow design elements from the 918 but it didn't happen. Smiley


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Lamborghini Huracan Performante (2019), Mercedes E63 S AMG Edition 1 (2018), Mercedes C63 S AMG Cab (2019), Range Rover Evoque Si4 Black Edition (2019)


    Re: Nürburgring - Tesla vs. Taycan

    I will very likely be in Hockenheim with the Taycan this autumn, will be interesting what I think about this car, especially since I am (almost) completely anti-EV. I will give the Taycan a chance though, you will get an honest opinion about this car (from my combustion engine lover perspective). If anyone is interested that is... 


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Lamborghini Huracan Performante (2019), Mercedes E63 S AMG Edition 1 (2018), Mercedes C63 S AMG Cab (2019), Range Rover Evoque Si4 Black Edition (2019)


    Re: Nürburgring - Tesla vs. Taycan

    Sidney:

    Hi all!

    Time table for Tesla at Nürburgring: Tesla arrived at Nürburgring already ... with own Diesel generator to power the 2 Teslas ... on Michelin Pilot Sport Cup 2 R Smiley

    - Tesla stays 3 weeks at Nürburgring Smiley

    - First bigger testing on September 18th

    - 2 hours on Saturday 21st : Ring blocked for Tesla only

    - Wednesday 25th : 5 p.m. : blocked again for Tesla

     

    Source: German Auto-Motor-Sport 

    Two weeks later... Total failure for Tesla Smiley


    Re: Nürburgring - Tesla vs. Taycan

    RC:

    I will very likely be in Hockenheim with the Taycan this autumn, will be interesting what I think about this car, especially since I am (almost) completely anti-EV. I will give the Taycan a chance though, you will get an honest opinion about this car (from my combustion engine lover perspective). If anyone is interested that is... 

    I am


    Re: Nürburgring - Tesla vs. Taycan

    schmoell:
    RC:

    I will very likely be in Hockenheim with the Taycan this autumn, will be interesting what I think about this car, especially since I am (almost) completely anti-EV. I will give the Taycan a chance though, you will get an honest opinion about this car (from my combustion engine lover perspective). If anyone is interested that is... 

    I am

    Me too. Specially interested to hear if you detect any lag Smiley


    Re: Nürburgring - Tesla vs. Taycan

    You can't even imagine how curious I am. I have seen the Taycan live, I have sat in it but have never driven it.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Lamborghini Huracan Performante (2019), Mercedes E63 S AMG Edition 1 (2018), Mercedes C63 S AMG Cab (2019), Range Rover Evoque Si4 Black Edition (2019)


    Re: Nürburgring - Tesla vs. Taycan

    Looking forward to your report.


     
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