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    update from PCNA on Cayenne turbo

    tires being at wear bar at 6k miles and 1qt/oil every 1k miles so far at 8k. porsche says 7500 is about right for tires on the turbo and that 1qt every 900 to 1k miles is also normal. these two issues (14 to 15 qts of oil and 2 full sets of 4 tires/year) combined with the incurable hesitation issue are just more than i'm willing to accept. if i can talk my wife into getting rid of this POS, i'm going to take the bath on it and get something built better by a manufacturer who owns and corrects it's phuck ups in the engineering dept. after 5 years with a bullet proof 993 and 996, i think i'm done giving my $ to porsche and will keep the CGT unless it turns out to be of the cayenne quality vs. the 993/996 variety (save for the obvious RMS issues they've failed to remedy in 8 or 9 model year boxsters and 911s).

    Re: update from PCNA on Cayenne turbo

    I think this is a good move for you Ben. Time to move on. What are you thinking of going to? Lexus would seem to be a safe bet.

    Re: update from PCNA on Cayenne turbo

    Quote:
    GM Austin said:
    I think this is a good move for you Ben. Time to move on. What are you thinking of going to? Lexus would seem to be a safe bet.



    yep, probably the LX if we end up ditching it.

    Re: update from PCNA on Cayenne turbo

    Do it. The LX is an excellent vehicle.

    Re: update from PCNA on Cayenne turbo

    I have had 3 LX's and just switched to a 2005 GX with the KDSS suspension (Sport package). The LX or GX is hard to beat for everyday, high-capacity mobility.

    GX weighs a good 500 lbs less than the LX and have virtually the same cargo and seating capacity.

    LX was 13/16 EPA and GX is 15/19. Looks like the 500 fewer pounds helped something since they both have the same size engine.

    More on KDSS here and here.

    I test drove the GX with and without KDSS and held out for the KDSS-equipped truck. What a difference in handling feel. Even my wife and kids easily noticed the vastly reduced body roll.

    Re: update from PCNA on Cayenne turbo

    I agree Mike. I have always been a fan of Toyota products because of their reliability, particularly their off-road offerings. The GX-470 has been Four Wheeler magazines 4X4 of the Year for two years now and was 4X4 of the Year at 4-Wheel and Off-Road Magazine last year. This is a great product and the special suspension is really something.

    Still, the LX has a certain panache that is undeniable so I wouldn't discourage someone from going that route if they were leaning that way. The LX-470 has a great heritage and is a magnificent automobile in it's own right.

    Re: update from PCNA on Cayenne turbo

    My Cayenne Turbo has now almost 15000 km (which would be something around 9400 mls) and it has been very very reliable. No engine, gearbox, battery, electronics, etc. faliure.
    Yes, there is the hesitation issue (which, sorry to say that again, has been demanded by US customers according to the fact that a lot of customers in the US made complaints to their dealers/PCNA about a too aggressive throttle response on the first Cayenne S models) and this is actually something really is hard to live with from my point of view because it takes away a lot of the fun with this truck. But what do you expect from the tires? I needed new tires at around 10000 km (6250 mls) too, it really depends on driving style and of course they wear off much faster when the truck is driven hard.
    Oil consumption? Well, around 1 litre every 1500 km now. This is pretty normal for a turbo charged engine.

    I don't say that the Cayenne Turbo is perfect, no way...there still are a lot of little things to "fix". But compared to our former ML55 and other SUVs among our friends, the Cayenne still rules. Of course the ML 270 CDi of one of our friends eats less fuel and oil and the tires lasted over 50000 km. But is it the same fun? I doubt it.
    Nobody spends that much money on a truck...unless he wants to enjoy DRIVING it. Well, I'm still not sure why Nick bought a Cayenne S and I'm pretty sure that 50% of the people driving a Cayenne over here in my Austria ski vacation resort drive a Cayenne like they would show off their Rolex but to be honest: I don't care. Why? Because I know why I drive the Cayenne and all the others can do whatever they want, it is a free world.

    It is funny, ben. You're complaining about tire wear or oil consumption on a twin-turbo charged 2.5 ton truck.
    Get the Lexus, I'm pretty sure you'll be much happier. Of course forget about the suspension, steering, road handling capabilities, power output, etc. but who cares if you get less tire wear and less oil consumption instead?

    BTW: I'm waiting for you to sell your CGT because the tires make too much noise.

    Re: update from PCNA on Cayenne turbo

    Sorry to hear about your Cayenne issues. It amazes me though that you would consider a Lexus to be a comparable vehicle to a Cayenne Turbo (other than the fact it is a 4x4 SUV). It would seem that you are maybe looking for the SUV driving position and space but not the outright performance that the Porsche has. Perhaps you would have been better of going for either the S or V6 version which would have been less costly to run but I doubt that running costs can be a real problem if you can afford a CGT. I would have thought that paying for a set of tyres and a few litres of oil must be more of an inconvenience than a financial burden and it seems strange to take a hit on depreciation which presumably will be a greater cost.

    In the UK we don't have the Lexus LX 470. It is badged as the Toyota Lancruiser Amazon here and is not regarded as a luxury SUV comparable to the X5, VW Touraeg, Cayenne or Range Rover due to its handling, size, badge and styling. It is interesting to note that it costs over $20,000 more here even though it wears a Toyota badge and has a more basic front end design. You can see it here if you are interested
    Toyota Amazon

    Re: update from PCNA on Cayenne turbo

    Quote:
    RC said:
    But what do you expect from the tires? I needed new tires at around 10000 km (6250 mls) too, it really depends on driving style and of course they wear off much faster when the truck is driven hard.
    Oil consumption? Well, around 1 litre every 1500 km now. This is pretty normal for a turbo charged engine.

    BTW: I'm waiting for you to sell your CGT because the tires make too much noise.



    leave it to you RC to try as hard as you can to reduce the cognitive dissonance you feel when anyone speaks negatively about porsche in general or one that you own specifically. as usual, you make a bunch of self-centered assumptions being that you're god. sorry to inform you though, you are WRONG again. specifically: "it really depends on driving style and of course they wear off much faster when the truck is driven hard." the car has been driven "well over" 95% by my wife who was pregnant 4 months of her ownership and driving around a newborn the balance of the 7 months. she doesn't endanger her child at triple digit speeds as you've bragged you do and therefore drives the thing much more conseratively than you do.

    is "1 litre every 1500 km" the same as the 1 qt/every 1k miles we are experiencing? should we be experiencing considerably less consumption on a conservatively driven CT than you are in yours?

    "BTW: I'm waiting for you to sell your CGT because the tires make too much noise"

    cute, smart arse. i "happily" replaced the tires in my 996 every 4k miles (once/year) because i drove em to the wear bars that quickly or wore the outsides out in the mountains. i "expect" to replace tires driving the balls off my "sports cars", but not on our conservatively driven $100k luxury SUV baby carrier. i also "expected" to put in the 2 qts of oil after my first 1k miles i put on the V-10 street legal CGT race car.

    Re: update from PCNA on Cayenne turbo

    Quote:
    W8MM said:
    I have had 3 LX's and just switched to a 2005 GX with the KDSS suspension (Sport package). The LX or GX is hard to beat for everyday, high-capacity mobility.

    GX weighs a good 500 lbs less than the LX and have virtually the same cargo and seating capacity.

    LX was 13/16 EPA and GX is 15/19. Looks like the 500 fewer pounds helped something since they both have the same size engine.

    More on KDSS here and here.

    I test drove the GX with and without KDSS and held out for the KDSS-equipped truck. What a difference in handling feel. Even my wife and kids easily noticed the vastly reduced body roll.



    hey mike, i'm very surprised to hear cargo capacity of the GX is similar to the LX. we drove the GX and loved it (except it's not very attractive, but then either is the CT), but opted for the CT power - before we learned it isn't available until at least one full second after the accelerator is mashed. knowing now that the cargo capacity is similar between the G and L, we'll have to reconsider the L since the G is so much easier to find parking spaces, etc.

    Re: update from PCNA on Cayenne turbo

    Ouch! Ben you are lethal!

    Re: update from PCNA on Cayenne turbo

    Quote:
    ///AMG Mercedes said:
    Ouch! Ben you are lethal!



    yeah, hypocrites suck:


    RC
    Rennteam Editor



    Reged: Tue
    Posts: 7345
    Loc: Germany Re: Transmission Control Module Replacement [Re: bancu]
    #45449 - Tue Aug 17 2004 09:17 PM Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply

    Good guess. A few weeks ago, Porsche had to exchange the gearbox unit for a new software version while VW was able to update the software with a simple CD used on their System Tester. PIWIS should be able to do the job, the question is WHEN?!

    Maybe Porsche is a bit more generous if they don't have to exchange the hardware.
    Right now I'm preparing a much more "harsh" letter to Porsche but I'm still waiting to send it because of the factory vacation. I want the right people to be around when they get it.

    What also annoys me is exchanging the brake discs at 8000 km (they had cracks and were almost "finished") and my tires (all 4!) are already gone too. This really is ridiculous, if Porsche claims they build a REAL Porsche SUV, the tires can't last only 9000 km or so. Not to speak about the brakes.

    --------------------
    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor

    Re: update from PCNA on Cayenne turbo

    Quote:
    ben, lj said:
    cute, smart arse



    Well, you don't even know how "cute" I can be...if you continue like that.

    Hipocrit? Yes, my wife doesn't like to drive the Cayenne because of the hesitation (which I mentioned in my reply to you too). But this is also the same person who loves her SLK 32 AMG and the person who had three accidents in the past five years. She acknowledges that she can't drive, she actually hates driving. If you're in the same "league", I apologize, ben.

    As I said, the Cayenne Turbo is far from being perfect. But I don't see any alternative on the market right now. Do you have any suggestions? For me, DRIVING is the most important thing on a car, not how it looks, not little flaws and not how high the "bling bling" factor is (which seems to be higher than I thought on the Cayenne...Nick made the right choice ).
    From a performance/handling point of view, there is no substitute for the Cayenne Turbo on the market.

    Please, ben: how could I take somebody seriously who buys a Carrera GT and complaints that his garage entrance is too high and the car too low.

    Re: update from PCNA on Cayenne turbo

    Quote:
    RC said:
    Quote:
    ben, lj said:
    cute, smart arse



    Hipocrit? Please, ben: how could I take somebody seriously who buys a Carrera GT and complaints that his garage entrance is too high and the car too low.



    yeah, "hipocrit". i guess you missed your post i posted for you where you bitched about getting low miles out of your tires (despite your much more aggressive driving habits with it - with your wife and child in the car no less). i'll repost it below for your convenience.

    and yeah, who wants to put their $450k CGT in the garage anyway (despite having it in a locked garage at night being a "REQUIREMENT" for obtaining insurance). i shoulda just left it outside as i'm sure everyone else does. i guess that's why the dealers rope em off in the showroom (or hide em back in service), keep em locked and don't even let people touch em.

    RC
    Rennteam Editor



    Reged: Tue
    Posts: 7345
    Loc: Germany Re: Transmission Control Module Replacement [Re: bancu]
    #45449 - Tue Aug 17 2004 09:17 PM Edit Reply Quote Quick Reply

    Good guess. A few weeks ago, Porsche had to exchange the gearbox unit for a new software version while VW was able to update the software with a simple CD used on their System Tester. PIWIS should be able to do the job, the question is WHEN?!

    Maybe Porsche is a bit more generous if they don't have to exchange the hardware.
    Right now I'm preparing a much more "harsh" letter to Porsche but I'm still waiting to send it because of the factory vacation. I want the right people to be around when they get it.

    What also annoys me is exchanging the brake discs at 8000 km (they had cracks and were almost "finished") and my tires (all 4!) are already gone too. This really is ridiculous, if Porsche claims they build a REAL Porsche SUV, the tires can't last only 9000 km or so. Not to speak about the brakes.

    --------------------
    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor


    Re: update from PCNA on Cayenne turbo

    No more arguments...now using my own posts?
    I know what I said and people who were following ALL Cayenne Turbo discussions and ALL my posts know exactly how I think about the Cayenne. As I said: not the perfect SUV, not what I expected from Porsche but you still didn't name any alternative. I want the handling and I want the power and as long as nobody else offers a similar package, I stick with the Cayenne. I won't sell it because of tire wear or even braking performance. Especially the braking performance is still one of the best on the market but I want it to be up to Porsche quality, not to Toyota/Lexus quality. Meaning: it should provide a firm brake feel and enough braking power even when braking from 270 kph to lower speeds at high outside temperatures in summer.
    But I guess this problem will be solved soon anyway...one way or another.

    Regarding your 450000 USD car: if I would spend 450000 bucks for a car, I would spend another 5000 or so to lower the entrance of my garage. Just a little hint, in case you didn't think of it.

    Re: update from PCNA on Cayenne turbo

    Quote:
    RC said:
    No more arguments...now using my own posts?
    I know what I said and people who were following ALL Cayenne Turbo discussions and ALL my posts know exactly how I think about the Cayenne. As I said: not the perfect SUV, not what I expected from Porsche but you still didn't name any alternative. I want the handling and I want the power and as long as nobody else offers a similar package, I stick with the Cayenne. I won't sell it because of tire wear or even braking performance. Especially the braking performance is still one of the best on the market but I want it to be up to Porsche quality, not to Toyota/Lexus quality. Meaning: it should provide a firm brake feel and enough braking power even when braking from 270 kph to lower speeds at high outside temperatures in summer.
    But I guess this problem will be solved soon anyway...one way or another.

    Regarding your 450000 USD car: if I would spend 450000 bucks for a car, I would spend another 5000 or so to lower the entrance of my garage. Just a little hint, in case you didn't think of it.



    yeah, i guess citing your posts wherein you complained strongly about exactly what i did was a weak way for me to question your suggesting i should expect it. come on rc, don't make it so easy for me to make an ass out of you.

    and, leave it to a know it all pharmacist to size up my garage dilema and propose to fix it for $5k. i wasn't aware you had so much construction experience with 3 story homes with two floors of living space under the garage (on the street level) on the side of mountains. your familiarity and expertise with the ca coastal commission requirements including but not limited to hieght restrictions, slope and drain requirements is also impressive. the breadth and depth of your knowledge never ceases to amaze. where oh where do you find the time?

    Re: update from PCNA on Cayenne turbo

    Quote:
    ben, lj said:
    yeah, i guess citing your posts wherein you complained strongly about exactly what i did was a weak way for me to question your suggesting i should expect it. come on rc, don't make it so easy for me to make an ass out of you.



    C'mon ben, don't make it so easy for me to press the DELETE button, unless the admin is faster.

    Quote:

    and, leave it to a know it all pharmacist to size up my garage dilema and propose to fix it for $5k. i wasn't aware you had so much construction experience with 3 story homes with two floors of living space under the garage (on the street level) on the side of mountains. your familiarity and expertise with the ca coastal commission requirements including but not limited to hieght restrictions, slope and drain requirements is also impressive. the breadth and depth of your knowledge never ceases to amaze. where oh where do you find the time?





    Well, I find the time to reply to your funny posts...

    My suggestion to end your Porsche dilemma and pain: sell both, the CGT AND Cayenne Turbo and all your problems will vanish in a second. And MINE too.

    Re: update from PCNA on Cayenne turbo

    Quote:
    RC said:
    Quote:
    ben, lj said:
    yeah, i guess citing your posts wherein you complained strongly about exactly what i did was a weak way for me to question your suggesting i should expect it. come on rc, don't make it so easy for me to make an ass out of you.



    C'mon ben, don't make it so easy for me to press the DELETE button, unless the admin is faster.

    Quote:

    and, leave it to a know it all pharmacist to size up my garage dilema and propose to fix it for $5k. i wasn't aware you had so much construction experience with 3 story homes with two floors of living space under the garage (on the street level) on the side of mountains. your familiarity and expertise with the ca coastal commission requirements including but not limited to hieght restrictions, slope and drain requirements is also impressive. the breadth and depth of your knowledge never ceases to amaze. where oh where do you find the time?





    Well, I find the time to reply to your funny posts...

    My suggestion to end your Porsche dilemma and pain: sell both, the CGT AND Cayenne Turbo and all your problems will vanish in a second. And MINE too.



    yep, you are correct. when someone points out contradictions in your posts, you can always hit the delete key :-)

    you may very well get your wish re: selling our cayenne, but i have no reason to ditch the cgt which i'm growing to like very much (actually i've been thrilled with it pretty much since delivery). as i made clear in other posts (somehow you only find my negative ones for some reason), the ride height problem is far from insurmountable. i would much prefer that extra 1/2" raise kit porsche is supposedly working on, but if that's the only negative i have to live with on this car (and so far it is), i'm keeping it for a long time!

    Re: Even a pharmacist would

    have the sense to build a small portable ramp for his driveway entrance. He might not have been psychic about your real estate but im sure he would have the brains to find a solution. At least he is gracious and does not stomp about with a spoiled and condescending attitude.

    Consider that Viper owners have to build ramps. They have a horrendous ground clearance problem. You can use plywood or you can use whatever your self worth fancies. Its not permanent so all of the whining about what iffing the CCC can stop.

    If you want N spec tires on your 4X4 in hokum cali then your gonna have to get friendly with your tire dealer and write checks that will make his kids happy. Toyota trucks are behemoths in their own right. Try a emergency two lane change at 100 and see how quickly you see Jesus and wish you
    had N spec tires and a decent suspension.

    Im tired of the self entitled: they better do this, i paid them that, mentality of some people who buy limited production Euro vehicles and then whine on and on. Europeans know what these vehicles are about. They arent buying them to operate like toasters. They dont moooooooaan about getting to the store. If their Cayenne gets edgy, they have other cars and people to go fetch. If you want a Euro status performance car,truck or even a wrist watch you gotta take the good with the bad. They are not friggn Dodge's and reliability is not connected to the price in much of anyway.

    Now go get six sheets of plywood, span your gutter, road and driveway edge and park your CGT inside the garage.
    Im tired of hearin about it.

    Re: Even a pharmacist would

    Quote:
    JimFlat6 said:
    have the sense to build a small portable ramp for his driveway entrance. He might not be psychic about real estate but im sure he would have the brains to find a solution. At least he is gracious and does not exhibit a spoiled and condescending attitude.

    Consider that Viper owners have to build ramps. They have a horrendous ground clearance problem. You can use plywood or you can use whatever your self worth fancies. Its not permanent so all of the whining about what iffing the CCC can stop.

    If you want N spec tires on your hokum 4X4 then your gonna have get to be friendly with your tire dealer.

    Toyota trucks are behemoths in their own right. Try a emergency lane change at 100 and see how quickly you see Jesus.

    Im tired of the self entitled: they better do this, i paid them that, mentality of people who buy limited production
    vehicles and then whine on and on. Europeans know what these
    vehicles are about. They arent buying them to operate like
    toasters. They dont moooooooaan about getting to the store.
    If their Cayenne gets edgy, they have other cars and people to do that. If you want a Euro status performance car,truck or even a wtist watch you gotta take the good with the bad. They are not friggn Dodge's and reliability is not connected to the price in much of anyway.

    Go get six sheets of plywood, span your gutter, road and driveway edge and park your CGT inside the garage.
    Im tired of hearin about it.



    as i said (about a billion times) already jim, the garage situation turned out just fine. i just can't pull the car in forward, but if i reverse it in it clears by appx 1/4" at the lowest point. coming up with a garage filling (as in where does this crap get stored when not in use?), temporary (and trashy looking) plywood type solution would just make getting the car in and out a PIA every time and probably discourage me from driving it nearly as much as if i can just get in it and go. it already takes a while to take of, and lock down the tops - and then reverse process when returning. and, adding a couple more steps which would necessitate a 15 minute pre and post drive ritual probably wouldn't work very well. (of course there is also the extra 5 minutes each way it takes to go an alternative route because the car would bottom out on the more direct route i use for all our other cars - another 1/2" would allow the CGT to go the same route). weren't you the guy talking about the lack of daily driveability of the CGT relative to the ford gt? all porsche had to do was install an electric raise button for just this situation like ferrari managed to do for the enzo. and, if it's not a problem, why is porsche designing a 1/2" raise kit? other than the ride height and "rock star" like following the car attracts, the car is every bit a daily driver as rc's snow plowing 997.

    rc merely entered the CGT garage situation into this discussion ON THE CAYENNE board in this thread titled " update from PCNA on Cayenne turbo" to make personal jabs to deflect from the silliness of his hypocritical comments which were brought to his attention. funny thing (actually pretty damn UNfunny) is i don't recall anyone making any "porsche is great, mine is wonderful, you're just an exception who should learn to live with it" type posts in response to rc's very same complaints. i guess that comes from being ruler of the joint, eh.

    for referrence re: the garage:

    http://www.6speedonline.com/forums/showt...arage+operation


    Re: Toyota truck lane-change

    Quote:
    JimFlat6 said:
    Toyota trucks are behemoths in their own right. Try a emergency two lane change at 100 and see how quickly you see Jesus and wish you had N spec tires and a decent suspension.



    Jim,

    I've gotta hand it to you, you're right on the money about this one.

    I'd rather see Jesus in church, but I believe the GX470 (even with KDSS) has an under-damped step-steer response that's perfect for impromptu prayer.

    The last time I tried an emergency lane change (last week) in the GX, I was somewhat amused by the amount of out-of-phase steering response I experienced.

    Luckily for me, I had plenty of experience with such behavior in my misspent youth while driving a 1st-generation Plymouth Horizon. Brock Yates coined the term "guard-rail-seeking missile" to honor the Horizon's post-maneuver stability. I managed to recover with some measure of grace.

    I have to say I was surprised that the GX didn't acquit itself better considering how crisp it feels in more ordinary driving.

    I was sorely tempted to buy a Cayenne instead of the GX470, but the Cayenne has so much less cargo space with the second row seats in use that family vacations or trips to summer camp were not possible.

    For now, I'll just have to be more aware of the reduced maneuver envelope of Toyotas until Porsche (or maybe BMW in less time) sees fit to make a 7-passenger version that will better fit my needs. A Cayenne just can't haul around half the volleyball or tennis team any better than a sedan.

    Re: Toyota truck lane-change

    Quote:
    W8MM said:
    Quote:
    JimFlat6 said:
    Toyota trucks are behemoths in their own right. Try a emergency two lane change at 100 and see how quickly you see Jesus and wish you had N spec tires and a decent suspension.



    Jim,

    I've gotta hand it to you, you're right on the money about this one.

    I'd rather see Jesus in church, but I believe the GX470 (even with KDSS) has an under-damped step-steer response that's perfect for impromptu prayer.

    The last time I tried an emergency lane change (last week) in the GX, I was somewhat amused by the amount of out-of-phase steering response I experienced.

    Luckily for me, I had plenty of experience with such behavior in my misspent youth while driving a 1st-generation Plymouth Horizon. Brock Yates coined the term "guard-rail-seeking missile" to honor the Horizon's post-maneuver stability. I managed to recover with some measure of grace.

    I have to say I was surprised that the GX didn't acquit itself better considering how crisp it feels in more ordinary driving.

    I was sorely tempted to buy a Cayenne instead of the GX470, but the Cayenne has so much less cargo space with the second row seats in use that family vacations or trips to summer camp were not possible.

    For now, I'll just have to be more aware of the reduced maneuver envelope of Toyotas until Porsche (or maybe BMW in less time) sees fit to make a 7-passenger version that will better fit my needs. A Cayenne just can't haul around half the volleyball or tennis team any better than a sedan.



    yep, we put the folded up stroller in the back and fully 1/2 the cargo space is used up (barely enough room for the groceries is left). obviously you can't fold down the seats for more storage room with the kid in the car since everything in back becomes a projectile for all occupants. we're considering a couple day get away and it should be fine but any longer and there just wouldn't be enough room.

    Re: Toyota truck lane-change

    That out of phase steeering you described and experienced is really tricky to deal with at speed. I salute you!

    Some trucks also shift their weight diagonally and or lift their outside front wheel or inside rear wheel during high speed maneuvers. They are best driven as if in a driver training class.

    The only truck that is relatively safe at speed is the Cayenne. It certainly doesnt offer the interior volume, pricing, or convenience that other SUV's do, but the handling is in a world of its own.

    Re: ML?

    I don't wanna sound stupid or anything and in your eyes its probably no real alternative, but how about the ML? Specifically the AMG model? Its worth a test drive, no? (when it actually hits your shores)

    Re: ML?

    Quote:
    ///AMG Mercedes said:
    I don't wanna sound stupid or anything and in your eyes its probably no real alternative, but how about the ML? Specifically the AMG model? Its worth a test drive, no? (when it actually hits your shores)



    junk. the old (current) one has a reputation in the states fairly similar to MB's rep as a whole of late as regards quality. it seems like since the chrysler merger, MB's quality has gone into the pisser while chrysler's has been elevated. it's a real shame too because MB is the only dealer who has a service dept within walking distance to my house. it would be so convenient if it wasn't needed so often. as well, the ML is just as cargo capacity constrained as the C.

    Re: ML?

    Quote:
    ///AMG Mercedes said:
    I don't wanna sound stupid or anything ..., but how about the ML?



    My information is that the new ML still won't have "7-seat" type cargo capacity. I need room for 4 people (think: me, wife, and 2 largish teenagers), plus enough luggage for a 2-week trip.

    An ML has this?

    Since when?

    The GX470 was the most pleasant package that could do the job. I didn't really want a Yukon XL or Navigator.

    Re: ML?

    Ben, this is exactly what i was afraid of. I KNOW quality of MB ever since 98 is in the dump. They have made some truly HORRIBLY built cars this past 7-8 years or so. Trust me, I own a "great" example of MB build quality, the old A-class

    But i tell you, with the new recent models, CLS/SLK/A and now ML things are completely turning around. These cars are NOTHING like their predecessors. The new A-class is one helluva car (for what it is). I have no doubt Mercedes is really revamping its new models. The upcoming ML60/63 AMG will hopefully be a very good car, if some rumours come true.

    I must stress, DON'T judge the latest generation by their predecessors, those oldies can't hold a candle to the new cars. Judge the new ones as if they are the first generation. I know quality as of the past 7-8 years has left a VERY bad taste in the mouth of the public and the motoring world, but this IS changing. Mercedes thought it could cut costs without compromising quality or tarnishing the brand, WRONG, now they are trying much more harder...


    @W8MM, the current model in its final edition guise has a third row, not sure if its big enough for your boys, but I see no reason why the new ML shouldn't get such an option...


    Re: ML?

    Quote:
    ///AMG Mercedes said:
    Ben, this is exactly what i was afraid of. I KNOW quality of MB ever since 98 is in the dump. They have made some truly HORRIBLY built cars this past 7-8 years or so. Trust me, I own a "great" example of MB build quality, the old A-class

    But i tell you, with the new recent models, CLS/SLK/A and now ML things are completely turning around. These cars are NOTHING like their predecessors. The new A-class is one helluva car (for what it is). I have no doubt Mercedes is really revamping its new models. The upcoming ML60/63 AMG will hopefully be a very good car, if some rumours come true.

    I must stress, DON'T judge the latest generation by their predecessors, those oldies can't hold a candle to the new cars. Judge the new ones as if they are the first generation. I know quality as of the past 7-8 years has left a VERY bad taste in the mouth of the public and the motoring world, but this IS changing. Mercedes thought it could cut costs without compromising quality or tarnishing the brand, WRONG, now they are trying much more harder...


    @W8MM, the current model in its final edition guise has a third row, not sure if its big enough for your boys, but I see no reason why the new ML shouldn't get such an option...





    unfortuntely as you can see from all the well earned stereotypes about american cars (which now sit above german cars in quality surveys), perception of poor quality takes a long time to change. i know i sure won't be the guinea pig re: any new german cars in the future and will most certainly do much more research than in the past to educate myself on the more frequent, if any, problems with a model before purchasing.

    Re: ML?

    Bilal,

    I've owned 4 merc cars. 2 MLs, 2 CLKs and believe me as long as I'm alive I will never touch this brand period. Quality aside (which is down the toilet) their service in not any better.
    From my past experieces and the amount of money I have lost in Merc cars I'll never go around them. In fact I'm proud to say that I have changed few of my friends minds regarding the brand that they ended up either getting Lexus or BMWs.

    Re: ML?

    Same here... MB's Quality is down into the toilet...we had S class at first place, and within one year time we had another ML Class.... well... they are totoally pisses me off... small problems are alwasy there. i brought it dealer 3 times a week. and got told to wait for parts. because too many cars got same problem. finally, last March, i traded my ML430 to X5 4.4i ...I DID NOT HAVE ANY PROBLEMS AT ALL SINCE I GOT THE CAR... ML traded for $25000 CAD... bought it for $75000CAD only 2 and half years!!!
    Since that all my friend have changed from MB to BMW. BMW is something that u worth invest. Jap cars are not something we consider here, i rather chose something from US.

     
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