Crown

Board: Porsche - 911 - 997 - Turbo Language: English Region: Worldwide Share/Save/Bookmark Close

Forum - Thread


    Re: Time For ECU Tuning?

    cannga:

     When you start the Turbo in the morning, in the first minute or so, the exhaust is really loud, then after 1 minute, it becomes quiet.

    i love that first minuteSmileySmiley


    --
    997 TT, what a car/che'mmmmmaghena!!!

    Re: Time For ECU Tuning?

    Can

    Your candidness about this is very refreshing......... 

    This is quite a subject and not one which is discussed or considered very often.

    Going to extreme tunes people forget that high hp engines tend to be knarly beasts and even with today's ECUs can have real characters which are not particularly pleasant for a daily driver.

    Some examples I have experienced.... My Ruf CTR (Yellowbird) - an awesome machine in many respects but the combination of engine lumpyness, exhaust frequencies and a constant "pulsing" made it a no no for anything but one off "fun" drives.

    A pal had a real 600hp single turbo engine built and tuned on the Judd engine dyno so it was pukka power. When we met up at the airstrip my RS engine with 600hp was relatively purring like a limo engine and this pal's was hunting and spitting, I remember then it striking me how smooth mine was and that this issue was alive and kicking.

    Someone posted on 6 speed about hearing the 231mph EVO engine and it sounding like a cement mixer (or something similar) - of course all the egos took over and this was buried but I would guess that a 3.6/3.8 turbo engine to be that powerful must have uber radical cam timing and exhaust solutions which by their nature would make the engine a complet beast and not dd friendly in the least..

    During my last 3.8 build on the 993tt RS said they were planning to use an development of the racing EVO camshaft and specifically pointed out to me that it would change the character of the engine and it may be jerky as one slowed to a halt in gear.... As it turned out it did change the character but it was still tuned to be perfectly acceptable as a dd. My 993tt went from standard cams to 3.8RS (hydraulic) cams to these EVO cams and the character changed noticably each time and it is only really noticable if you got in a stock car back to back, it felt so smooth.....

    So back to your ECU tune - I don't have much knowledge of what they do to these modern ECUs but I would guess they play with the variocam which probably has a similar effect as a cam change, this combined with exhaust, then all the other more aggressive parameter changes has obviously caused what you have - It sounds like you are a little unlucky with your combinations of components causing this as there must be many others with this ECU which don't have the problem....

    I will make a note to ask RS (when I see them later this month) if they specifically think about this when they sign off a tune ?


    --


    2009 997 GT2 RS Tuning 542PS/736NM


    Re: Time For GIAC ECU Tuning?

    hey Can, great to see u here again, just got my suspension setup , its awesome, feel much more confidence now, as for ecu tuning, what do you guys think about Softronic or Revo?

    cheers,

    Will


    Re: Time For ECU Tuning?

    GT:

     Now thats interesting.. My GT2 exhaust (200cell cats) drones too but only between 2.5k-3k rpm. I never thought that this could be related to ecu tuning.. It will be very interesting if an ecu tune from a different tuner would make any difference in that respect..

     

    Yes and no.

    No because the resonance between 2400 and 2800 are present even in the stock car. In other words, it's there even if you don't mod your ECU. It's a hum that is particularly noticeable in 4th and 5th gear and I've heard this on every 997 Turbo that I've driven.
    Incidentally, it almost sounds like engine lugging and don't know whether the 2 are related but it does go away at the same rpm as when the Turbo kicks in. (Hmmm...)

    Yes because an ECU mod that makes the car louder, or for that matter, any mod that makes the car louder, like an after-market exhaust, will make this hum worse.

    The 2400-2800 rpm resonance rarely bothers anyone because if you cruise at 3000, car is quiet. (And I do cruise at 3000, since below 3000 there is too much lag.) And if you think about the mechanics of shifting, you see 2500 in first gear, but after that you won't because the shift point is above it. (In traffic though, I could see this becoming a problem.) This is why the louder Cargraphic exhaust does not bother me one bit.

    Just my opinion, YMMV.


    --

    Regards,
    Can
    997 Turbo + Bilstein Damptronic ( Review and Pictures ) + ECU Tune ( ??? ) + Cargraphic Exhaust ( Oh heavenly noise! )


    Re: Time For ECU Tuning?

    STRADALE:
    THANKS for the update Cann!

    Wow, how crazy is that.

    So what's the next step in a couple of months , GIAC?


    --

    Gregg,

    You are welcome. Yes, the next step is GIAC. I was going to wait but it may come sooner than 2 months. Totally by chance, just as I decided to return the EVOMS, I received a PM from the GIAC people (we had talked previously).  I really should be preparing for our family vacation Smiley but they are making an offer that is very hard for me to turn down. They are about one hour from where I live and are mentioning something to the effect of custom tuning. Hopefully, there will be dyno's but I don't know yet.

    Interesting how things have turned out really. I started out thinking GIAC, switched to EVOMS, and now am coming full circle back to GIAC. There is one thing about GIAC that I found attractive, even more so now after my experience with EVOMS: the ability to flash back to stock mode that was mentioned on the very first post of this thread.

    Although the ECU mod now becomes a must (I miss the power), there is one important "minus" that should really be emphasized more about an ECU tune: It makes the car faster and more fun yes, but it also changes the character of the car. The Turbo becomes more like a hyperactive chihuahua, demanding more attention, is more noisy, etc. On twisty roads with plenty of curves (with the ECU tune, I sensed I could lose traction easily in curves) and during cruising (cruising at 3000 feels like 4000, not necessarily good), the increase in power may be almost too much.

    Although I could be wrong, I suspect that this is common to all ECU mod, not just EVOMS. There is a reason for this: An ECU tune in a turbo engine principally gains power by enhancing the boost. Timing and AFR are also part of the equation but increased boost is responsible for the main gain (I think). This means all the power comes after 3000. The question is then, how do you add 50-100 hp to a 480 hp engine, at above 3000, without making it feel "peaky"? The answer, in my limited experience is, you can't. 

    What does all this senseless rambling Smiley lead to? I think I like to retain the ability to switch back to stock. And GIAC has this ability (another US based company that I don't know much about, APR web site here, does the same by using the cruise control stalk). I may change when I gain experience, but right now, this is the case.
    -- 
    LAKERS = 2009 NBA Champions!
    Smiley Smiley Smiley
     

    Regards,
    Can
    997 Turbo + Bilstein Damptronic ( Review and Pictures ) + ECU Tune ( ??? ) + Cargraphic Exhaust ( Oh heavenly noise! )


    Re: Time For ECU Tuning?

    Interesting thanks Cann. It reminds me of what happened when I realized there was a very slight difference in sound w/ my tubi exhaust when switching Sport  on and off at idle. Doesnt sound anywhere near as pronounced but ............. 

    Following your research w/ interest please keep us informed.


    --

    08 PORSCHE Turbo Cabriolet, 06 Ferrari F430,  04 Durango HEMI,  04 Harley Davidson Screamin Eagle,  93 Harley Davidson Nostalgia

     


    Re: Time For ECU Tuning?

    Super Darius:
    cannga:

     When you start the Turbo in the morning, in the first minute or so, the exhaust is really loud, then after 1 minute, it becomes quiet.

    i love that first minuteSmileySmiley


    I've read on another non-Porsche car forum that the initial louder exhaust noise is from the ECU holding some exhaust valve (?) open to warm up the catalytic converter faster. The converter is more efficient when warm.


    --

    Regards,
    Can
    997 Turbo + Bilstein Damptronic ( Review ) + ECU Tune ( ??? ) + Cargraphic Exhaust - Oh heavenly noise!  ( Review )


    Re: Time For ECU Tuning?

    Toby, you always have some interesting story to tell. Thanks for sharing your experience.

    Re. the noise, this certainly could be specific to my car + exhaust + my tolerance. That said, there is another owner with a Milltek + Convertible 997 Turbo who is complaining about the same thing. When we measured sound level in his car, the increase is 3 db from stock to EVOMS; not sure of the specific settings of the sound level meter, but regardless this is not an insignificant change. There is also a nasty buzz with EVOMS in Sport Mode that's even worse than mine. He's trying the 750 rpm idle and I'll report if it makes a difference.

    In a couple of days, I should have GIAC in my car, in the process becoming probably the first person (don't know whether to laugh or cry about this distinction Smiley) who has tried these 2 US competitors' tunes; I think then I will have a clearer picture if noise is inherent with ECU mod, at least for these 2 companies.

    I must admit, I do miss the explosive power and the near complete elimination of lag by the EVOMS tune.


    --
     

    Regards,
    Can
    997 Turbo + Bilstein Damptronic ( Review ) + ECU Tune ( ??? ) + Cargraphic Exhaust - Oh heavenly noise!  ( Review )


    Re: Time For ECU Tuning?

    Wow 3 decibels is pretty significant, indicating it is twice as loud with the evo tune.


    --

    Doug

    Houston, Texas USA 

    997TT ...RUF550


    Re: Time For GIAC ECU Tuning?

    bigwillystyle:

    hey Can, great to see u here again, just got my suspension setup , its awesome, feel much more confidence now, as for ecu tuning, what do you guys think about Softronic or Revo?

    cheers,

    Will

    What kind of octane rating is gasoline in Hong Kong? Besides US companies, I would also give Cargraphic/RS Tuning a strong consideration. The cost is higher (US $5000 or so I think), but is within striking distance of US offerings (US $3000 or so for EVOMS/GIAC).

    I really don't know enough about and have no direct experience with either Revo or Softronic to give a recommendation. Softronic is a very recent entry to the US market. Neither Revo nor Softronic ranks high in number of US sales based on my web "research" (grin). GIAC is not available in your area?

    Bilstein: I agree. An absolute no brainer recommendation for mod if ever there's one. For totally market-driven motive, PAG (Volkswagen-PAG? Smiley) decided to take the Turbo toward a very soft direction starting with the 996 Turbo, and continue with the 997. The flaw of the Turbo, is simply a matter of philosophy, not engineering, and therefore is so easily correctable.
    (BTW, for the same reason, although I think 997.2 Turbo WILL be faster, my opinion is that unless PAG has a total change of heart, which is extremely unlikely, 997.2 Turbo will still be a soft GT class car and will require the same "suspension stiffening" mod, the same "louder exhaust" mod as now. The more things change...)

     

     


    --

    Regards,
    Can
    997 Turbo + Bilstein Damptronic ( Review ) + ECU Tune ( ??? ) + Cargraphic Exhaust - Oh heavenly noise!  ( Review )


    Re: Time For GIAC ECU Tuning?

    I spent all day at GIAC facility today; it's hard for me to believe that 2 tunes could feel so different from each other, Both have strong points, but... etc. . I'll have more to report once I have some time with the car, but for the few critical issues that I was concerned with:

    1. No resonance.
    2. Very little increase in noise. Entirely tolerable.
    2. Very little or virtually no change in the exhaust note.
    I breathed a sigh of relief.
     

    08AE0270-3 GIAC.jpg


    --

    Regards,
    Can
    997 Turbo + Bilstein Damptronic ( Review ) + ECU Tune ( ??? ) + Cargraphic Exhaust - Oh heavenly noise!  ( Review )


    Re: Time For GIAC ECU Tuning?

    That's great to hear, Can!  I look forward to your full review.  After all, it was your experience / liking of Cargraphic that ultimately influenced me to go with a Cargraphic exhaust for my 2009 Turbo Cab.  The sound is great (especially at high RPM), and it seems to be getting even better as it breaks in (now with about 400 miles post installation).  An ECU flash is next on my list, but I have been torn between EVOMS or GIAC.  Looking forward to your feedback!

     

     


    Re: Time For GIAC ECU Tuning?

    I knew they'd be different.  I seem to recall reading on 6speed someone stating that "ECU + exhaust" are "all the same."


    Re: Time For GIAC ECU Tuning?

    bbywu:

    I knew they'd be different.  I seem to recall reading on 6speed someone stating that "ECU + exhaust" are "all the same."

    Bob, yes night and day difference, not just in noise/sound, but throttle response, cruising behavior, etc. One (EVOMS) drives more like a hot rod and demands attention, is more explosive and perhaps peaky in its power delivery. It drives at 3000 rpm like it's 4000 and therefore gets tiring with freeway cruising (imagine long distance freeway cruising in 4th gear). The other (GIAC) is more linear in its response and drives more like a faster stock car with extra "springs" in the engine. It feels "springy" and lightfooted, for lack of a better term.

    Both companies to me are quite competent so it's for users to decide. I hope someone else would make a similar comparison so we could compare notes. After all, my Turbo baby and I are uncontrolled variables. There could be something wrong with one, or both, of us. Smiley


    --

    Regards,
    Can
    997 Turbo + Bilstein Damptronic ( Review ) + ECU Tune ( ??? ) + Cargraphic Exhaust - Oh heavenly noise!  ( Review )


    A day in paradise: Watching my Cargraphic Turbo tuned by GIAC

    A day in paradise: Watching my Cargraphic Turbo tuned by GIAC

    Thanks to the crew of GIAC, I had a day in paradise for a car enthusiast yesterday: Watching the pro’s tune the ECU of my Turbo.
    In case you don’t already know, the only addition to my car so far is the Cargraphic Loud exhaust. I’ve been shopping, and thinking about ECU tune for a year now. My hesitancy is partly related to warranty issue, and partly related to the fact that I use the car as a daily driver on Los Angeles freeways, don’t track the car, and occasionally take the wife on Porsche club drives. I therefore am a difficult and “enigmatic” customer: I would like more power, but not too much power LOL; and it’s very important to me that my car retains its daily-drive ability. Above all & at least for now, I don't want to have to replace the clutch, or any other hardware as a matter of fact (more on this later). In other words, if you are into killer horsepower and 60-130 times, check this "landmark" GIAC/AWE thread by eclou instead -- this car went to 186 mph at Texas mile: AWE 700 kit review .

    My impression of GIAC, having spent a day “infiltrating” the office and facility: A serious, very tightly run, very well organized operation. That said, the guys were at heart car guys like all of us here. I’ve read about what Garrett has done in the past, and it’s a pleasure to finally meet the G of GIAC (Garrett Integrated Automotive Corporation). I found out Garrett is a Porsche nut like us, owner of a rather well tuned 996 Turbo, and even better yet, is a graduate of Cal Berkeley. This has got to be a big plus as it seems some smart people go to school there (ha ha, nudge nudge wink wink, go Bears!). The crew was enthusiastic, helpful, and spent time explaining & answering my amateurish questions (Thank you!). I still forgot to ask what that curve Motec AF is, and which way is good. LOL.

    Garrett, Andrew, Austin, and my mysterious test driver whose name I don’t remember (sorry) worked on my car. There were a few dyno runs with the stock chip, then the program is loaded onto a spare ECU (My stock ECU remains original and "untouched." The spare ECU is avail. for $650 from Sunset Porsche, plus 200 or so from the dealer to load the original Porsche DME program, then the flash goes on top of this.), and then the crew went to work fine tuning the curves, with tuning dynos in between. For those with Cargraphic exhausts, this means GIAC now has a file that’s specific to the exhaust and I believe you should make a point to ask for this file specifically.

    A couple of notes before I forget. I am loath to replace any hardware in my Turbo baby (since I think it’s the cause of many problems reported with modding, usually secondary to some kind of disconnect or installation problem), but I could have sworn Garrett and Andrew mentioned replacing the stock intercooler with something like the AWE intercooler about 20 times yesterday when I was at the shop. Or was it 25? At any rate, this should give you an idea of how important it is in their eyes to lower Intake Air Temp.
    The second thing I heard, this one only about 12 times, is how horrible 91 PON California gasoline is. And how I should try race gas at my earliest opportunity. Garrett, ever the car enthusiast, wanted me to try the higher octane stuff on the way home. LOL.

    A lot of people have reported on ECU tunes so I have very little to add here, especially since mine is only a modest stage 2. But a few points for those on the fence, my preliminary subjective evaluation:
    1. You’ve tried to run in the swimming pool, with water up to your waste? There is this heaviness to forward progression. That’s what the stock car feels like compared to a tuned car. My GIAC Turbo feels like it has a spring in the engine; springy and very light footed is how I would describe it.
    The problem I have now is I keep speeding even when I know there are plenty of cops around. It’s very hard to resist. It’s fun.
    2. The GIAC car feels remarkably stock like in daily driving in Normal mode. A big plus for me considering how I use this car. There is very little added noise & no resonance. The pedal response, to my relief, is very much stock like and allows for relaxed cruising when I want to. Performance wise, GIAC Normal mode feels like stock Sport mode; perhaps a little quicker.
    3. In GIAC Sport mode, all hell breaks loose (modest hell I guess, as I understand I am still at the bottom of the hill; an intercooler and higher octane gas will add more) and one has to be careful around curves. That said, the power delivery is remarkably linear. Bottom line, Sport mode is where the money is. The car becomes seriously fast and fun.
    The Sport mode is slightly noisier at idle, but still very much acceptable and there is no resonance at higher rpm.
    4. Spool up (what happens when you press on gas pedal at 2000 rpm, power doesn’t kick in until 2800-3000 in stock car): Perhaps a bit faster, but essentially no change.
    5. Lag (what happens when you press gas pedal at 4000 rpm, slight lag in response in stock car): Virtually eliminated in Sport mode. This more linear engine response might be a subtle point but to me is a major reason why we should all upgrade our ECU.
    6. So what? Screw the warranty. Run, don’t walk, to your nearest GIAC dealer! You have absolutely nothing to lose (kind of ), and everything to gain with this mod.

    I have some pictures to load later when I have time (very busy!), and video of one of the dyno runs if my kids teach me how to put it on youtube. And maybe when I come back from vacation, my report on higher octane gas.

    --

    Regards,
    Can
    997 Turbo + Bilstein Damptronic ( Review ) + ECU Tune ( ??? ) + Cargraphic Exhaust - Oh heavenly noise!  ( Review )


    Re: Time For GIAC ECU Tuning?

    I arrived to the GIAC facility at 9:00 in the morning, after having been at work for 24 hours. Yes I did have some sleep but… I know, I am nuts. I am a complete newbie when it comes to ECU tuning and until this point, was not 100% sure what was planned for my car. 

    My heart jumped for joy when Austin, my GIAC contact, asked me to drive the car onto a platform, and the platform says something like “Mustang.” LOL. The crew then started to set up my car, which basically means a couple of computers, and fan, fan, fan, and more fan. BTW, if you haven’t got the point by now, the 3 most important things of ECU tuning and dyno testing are: 1. Cooling, 2. Cooling, and 3. Cooling.
    A couple of probes were connected to the engine for monitoring some important parameters. Here is the car being set up. That’s my car’s dyno test driver btw.

    CRW_0366setup 1.jpg

     


    --

    Regards,
    Can
    997 Turbo + Bilstein Damptronic ( Review ) + ECU Tune ( Review ) + Cargraphic Exhaust ( Oh heavenly noise! )


    Re: Time For GIAC ECU Tuning?

    There are a couple of things on my car's dyno graph that I would like to clear with GIAC before posting it publicly (patiently waiting ), so posting of this graph will have to wait. For those who are curious, it looks similar to the curve below that was posted for 6speed member "clay997tt" in this thread, with less horsepower gain (clay's is 440 mine is 420, my power curve dives earlier and is less at the top end) and more torque gain (clay is 470 mine is around 500 - it is a good flat plateau from around 3300 to 4400). A few more dyno runs under "better" conditions and maybe the horsepower numbers could be better, but that was not my goal. The percentage gains of 8% power, 17% torque are nothing unusual,  in line with another car with Cargraphic exhaust and is tuned to Stage 2 by Cargraphic.

    I'll discuss this a little later, but as important as absolute numbers are the shapes of and the areas under the torque and power curves. (There were comments about this as the crew was tuning my car.)  I believe this area around 3000-5000 influences greatly how the car accelerates, drives, & feels in daily driving . After all, this is where we drive a majority of the time. I'll show my dyno eventually but it does have reasonably good curves, with very nice torque band, and GIAC seemed to be pleased.

    Numbers aside, I am finding out as I get more of a handle on what's going on, that this thing does feel like a rocket, even in normal mode. In second and third gears the tach needle sweeps towards red line at an utterly alarming rate; as if it's a knife slicing through thin air. The car propels forwards like a Torpedo and cars next to mine on the freeway simply disappear in a tic tac when I punch on the gas. My Turbo baby is kicking ass big time. Smiley For the life of me, I can't fathom what it must feel like in those higher power cars like eclou's, etc.

    Lastly for those who are new to this: If you research the vaious tuning companies, you will see that dynos' numbers are all over the place. This is because the dynometers have parameter settings that influence how the numbers come out; vendors could make it read just about anything. GIAC in particular tends to have conservative (low) numbers. A percentage of the change is therefore more meaningful if you would like to have an idea of the gain. A look at the graph, at the areas under the curves, is even better. If you want to study a tune's gain, a percentage of the change -- that is, before and after dyno's -- is a lot more meaningful than "my car is now at 500 hp." A look at the graph, shapes, and areas under the curves, is even better.

    clay997tt GIAC Turbo dyno.jpg


    --

    Regards,
    Can
    997 Turbo + Bilstein Damptronic ( Review ) + ECU Tune ( Review ) + Cargraphic Exhaust ( Oh heavenly noise! )


    Re: Time For GIAC ECU Tuning?

    Hey Can. I am really glad you are now starting to see just how much EXTRA fun the Turbo is after you remove some of it's factory shackles! To me, the Stage II upgrade has been worth way more than what you give up in warranty etc, it takes the fun factor to a whole new level. With a Stage II and upgraded suspension the Turbo becomes something very very special indeed. I STILL get a huge smile on my face every time I plant the gas pedal to the floor - that rush just never gets old.
    --


    Click for bigger picture!


    Re: Time For GIAC ECU Tuning?

    Can

    Thanks for sharing your experience.

    Can I ask you (I have tried to debate this on RL but the "tuners" don't seem to want to play) on your torque curve in the diagram the torque peaks at about 4000rpm. I know in my GT2 when you hit the throttle at say 2000rpm in 3rd the torque surges (ie majot push in the back) at 3000rpm, this is where the torque peaks NOT 4000rpm... This is the whole point about the VTGs - they can bring the torque in earlier.

    If your torque delivery is like mine (which I suspect it will be) then how do GIAC explain the diagram which doesn't represent what the engine is actually doing ?

    For reference I post below my engine on the Maha Manthey dyno which loads the engine properly and seems to better represent how the torque arrives:


    --


    2009 997 GT2 RS Tuning 542PS/736NM


    Re: Time For GIAC ECU Tuning?

    TB993tt:

    Can

    Thanks for sharing your experience.

    Can I ask you (I have tried to debate this on RL but the "tuners" don't seem to want to play) on your torque curve in the diagram the torque peaks at about 4000rpm. I know in my GT2 when you hit the throttle at say 2000rpm in 3rd the torque surges (ie majot push in the back) at 3000rpm, this is where the torque peaks NOT 4000rpm... This is the whole point about the VTGs - they can bring the torque in earlier.

    If your torque delivery is like mine (which I suspect it will be) then how do GIAC explain the diagram which doesn't represent what the engine is actually doing ?

    ....

    Ahh Toby, why do you always have to ask such a difficult questions? Smiley Smiley 

    1. First, you are trying to relate an objective parameter (the dyno), to a subjective sensation (what we feel). To do so, we first have to agree about the correlation between objective number and this particular human sense.

    My first argument to you is that your curve doesn't look correct to me either. What I feel, a sudden rush at 3000, has to be a brick wall response and not a gradual curve. What do I mean by brick wall? A horizontal curve, a sudden rise at 3000, and then horizontal again.

               l --------
               l
               l
    ---------
     

    Subjectively, this rise occurs in an instant, start at 3000, by 3050, it's in another level altogether. In other words, whatever the test that correctly reflects what I feel has to show a sharp vertical rise.

    Your dyno shows a significant change in torque from 2000 to 3000, with a torque rising from around 400 and peak around 700. The rise is correct, but it's spreading over 1000 rpm -- too wide, and that is NOT what I think the car is doing. This rise has to occur over a 100 rpm, at most.  (BTW, my curve, and everyone else, are of course not correct either.)

    So what does this mean, is the test useless?

    2. I don't know if you're an audiophile, but, in my opinion, there is a similar argument in audio circles regarding test versus human response. The frequency response curve of a cd player. One camp argues that all cd players sound alike since they have the same frequency response. Another camp -- the genesis of high-end audio in the US -- states that the test measures many things accurately, but one thing it does not is how a component sounds to human ears.
    What does this mean? A test is used to look at many parameters, not just one. You should not use the one parameter that it doesn't reflect accurately, to void the result.
    More importantly is how do we interpret the correlation. What we feel, that sudden rush at 3000, is it represented by a rise (my curve), or is it represented by a peak (your curve)? My opinion is it should be a rise, which of course would actually make the GIAC curve more accurate. But it is merely speculation. I don't know the answer.

    3. As far as what GIAC does? There are myriads of parameters they are looking at (boost, AFR, shape of curves, area of curves, smoothness of curves, IAT, etc.). Assuming what you say is correct, that the torque rise should be over the range of 2000 to 3000 and peaks at 3000, I am 100% sure they could change the setting to create the rise earlier. But what if by doing that, other parameters they are looking at are not correctly reflected? I am not saying that this is the case, but what if? Is the most important criteria for a torque curve that it reflects our butt dyno, or is it to reflect what the engine is doing?

    4. Your torque curve shows a peak and an immediate decline, not a plateau. Again, this brings back the difficult question of correlation; are you sure this correcly reflects what our cars are doing?  In my car after the explosion at 3000, the subjective push stays very strong for one thousand rpm. Assuming your car does the same as mine, then maybe this drop in your dyno is not correct either? This is not a tit for tat retaliating response, but merely to point out the fact that the dyno curve is an artifical test that could be easily manipulated, and should one expect it to reflect to perfection real world condition, human sensation?

    Your question is excellent, and I am afraid I bring more questions than answers. To me, the dyno curves are for the tuners to use to tune, and for the marketing department to advertise, and for me to learn. But it's an artificial and a much manipulated test. So many people ask me about the dyno and numbers, so I posted, but to me there are two much more important parameters for the end users:
    1. Subjectively, how does the car feel. Lag, response, daily drive ability, etc.
    2. Objectively (and I actually don't care too much about this either), 60-130 times, or for us Californians, 40-100 times.


    --
     

    Regards,
    Can
    997 Turbo + Bilstein Damptronic ( Review ) + ECU Tune ( Review ) + Cargraphic Exhaust ( Oh heavenly noise! )


    Re: Time For GIAC ECU Tuning?

    TB993TT , is that 500hp at the wheels?


    Re: Time For GIAC ECU Tuning?

    Toby, look at the following "representative" curves from Cargraphic (grey background) and RUF (green background) Stage 2 Turbo's to see what I meant when I questioned that drop in your torque curve between 3000 and 4000 rpm, right after the peak. (I am assuming Cargraphic and RUF didn't "doctor" the curves.) That drop in your curve is odd in that it's a fairly big drop (730 to 630 or so) and I have not seen one in other dyno's of 997 Turbo's. Other dynos have a little plateau or drop more gradually.
    I think it's entirely possible that this drop is not real and is a manifestation of the measuring instrument being an imperfect device that cannot reflect correctly all parameters at all points.

    Also, look at RUF's transition point, 2400 rpm!? Example of same? Imperfect measuring device?

    We are back to 60-130, aren't we? Smiley

    Toby maha542.jpg

    Cargraphic Stage 2 997 Turbo.jpg

    1245826566874RUF Turbo Graph 550 Stage 2.jpg


    --

    Regards,
    Can
    997 Turbo + Bilstein Damptronic ( Review ) + ECU Tune ( Review ) + Cargraphic Exhaust ( Oh heavenly noise! )


    Re: Time For GIAC ECU Tuning?

    Posting this for Toby as he seems to be having RT troubles:


    --


    Click for bigger picture!


    Re: Time For GIAC ECU Tuning?

     

     


    --
     


    2009 997 GT2 RS Tuning 542PS/736NM


    Re: Time For GIAC ECU Tuning?

    Images from above:

    <<2nd image removed as per Toby's comments below>>


    --


    Click for bigger picture!


    Re: Time For GIAC ECU Tuning?

    Thanks Alex

    That second graph is the wrong one - I couldn't preview it thanks to RT..... ignore it


    --


    2009 997 GT2 RS Tuning 542PS/736NM


    Re: Time For GIAC ECU Tuning?

    I just plotted that example GIAC chart next to the CG/Ruf/Stock data

    Note I took the stock measurement at 3000 rpm (from the GIAC graph) and used this to work out what the engine power loss was after it got to the wheels:

    BHP 1.188964 factor
    Nm 1.232114 factor

     

    So that's some late Torque from the GIAC tune!


    --


    Click for bigger picture!


    Re: Time For GIAC ECU Tuning?

    cannga:


    1. First, you are trying to relate an objective parameter (the dyno), to a subjective sensation (what we feel). To do so, we first have to agree about the correlation between objective number and this particular human sense.

    My first argument to you is that your curve doesn't look correct to me either. What I feel, a sudden rush at 3000, has to be a brick wall response and not a gradual curve. What do I mean by brick wall? A horizontal curve, a sudden rise at 3000, and then horizontal again.

               l --------
               l
               l
    ---------
     

    Subjectively, this rise occurs in an instant, start at 3000, by 3050, it's in another level altogether. In other words, whatever the test that correctly reflects what I feel has to show a sharp vertical rise.

    Your dyno shows a significant change in torque from 2000 to 3000, with a torque rising from around 400 and peak around 700. The rise is correct, but it's spreading over 1000 rpm -- too wide, and that is NOT what I think the car is doing. This rise has to occur over a 100 rpm, at most.  (BTW, my curve, and everyone else, are of course not correct either.)

    Toby, thanks for the graph. I think you are even more nutty than I am. Smiley Besides the fact that my eyes are about to fall off reading that small font post, I am still not convinced that you could say the Manthey Maha dyno more accurately reflects that engine explosion at 3000. No brick wall response, too wide of a range.

    And I am still not convinced that not having a graph peaking at 3000 void a tuner's work!! How do you explain the RUF curve at 2400? (Even if you could explain the RUF curve's too early torque rise, I am still not convinced that not having a graph peaking at 3000 void a tuner's work. Smiley)

    BTW, I like your GPS explanation much better than the attempt to correlate objective data to human description ("my midrange is lacking, etc."). The latter is prone to errors.

    Lastly, if I haven't said it already, I think you are nuts. Like me Smiley. Keep up the good work.

     


    --

    Regards,
    Can
    997 Turbo + Bilstein Damptronic ( Review ) + ECU Tune ( Review ) + Cargraphic Exhaust ( Oh heavenly noise! )


    Re: Time For GIAC ECU Tuning?

    Can

    The Maha curve puts on ~250NM in 500rpm between 2400rpm and 2900rpm is that not a decently steep brick wall ?

    I think Porsche's own engine dyno diagrams show the peak at 2000rpm or similar just like Ruf's, so you are right, the Maha is out..... but on the road the Maha does seem to represent how the longitudinal Gs come in ie the torque curve.

    Your GIAC one (and other Mustang curves) plainly are miles out since the torque comes much earlier than shown - like I said if it all feels OK on the road then no problem but I would not be happy with such an unrepresentative picture of the torque curve, it just seems amateurish IMOSmiley but then again I only seem to be happy when I have paid to have my engine taken out and measured on an engine dynoSmiley  like you say, it is a sicknessSmiley


    --


    2009 997 GT2 RS Tuning 542PS/736NM


    Re: Time For GIAC ECU Tuning?

    TB993tt:

    Can

    The Maha curve puts on ~250NM in 500rpm between 2400rpm and 2900rpm is that not a decently steep brick wall ?

    I think Porsche's own engine dyno diagrams show the peak at 2000rpm or similar just like Ruf's, so you are right, the Maha is out..... but on the road the Maha does seem to represent how the longitudinal Gs come in ie the torque curve.

    Your GIAC one (and other Mustang curves) plainly are miles out since the torque comes much earlier than shown - like I said if it all feels OK on the road then no problem but I would not be happy with such an unrepresentative picture of the torque curve, it just seems amateurish IMOSmiley but then again I only seem to be happy when I have paid to have my engine taken out and measured on an engine dynoSmiley  like you say, it is a sicknessSmiley

    >>>
    The Maha curve puts on ~250NM in 500rpm between 2400rpm and 2900rpm is that not a decently steep brick wall ?
    >>>

    Nope, too wide. Not if you are using the criteria that a torque dyno has to match what I feel, which is a jump over a short instant covering at most 100 rpm.
    As far as amateurish, we've just proven that using the standard that your curve is correct or that the torque must reflect that jump at 3000, Porsche's is off by 1000 (!!), and RUF's by 600, so now which one is "miles out" and which one "amateurish"?

    I think there is way too much emphasis here on a single, 3000 rpm point of the dyno curve that stretches from 700 to 7000 rpm, and reflects myriads of other data points, and whether it matches what a person feels at that 3000 jump, and that matching at 3000 on this much manipulated curve alone validates the "professionalism" of a tuner. I must admit I am beginning to lose interest because a, I don't share the same belief and b, there is just too much mixing of objective data with subjective and controversial explanation in our arguments. "Yeah this is right, but... it seems so and so, etc., etc." I don't like "seem" in a rigorous argument Smiley. It sounds like a pseudo scientific fair by 2 amateurs! (Which of course, is who we are.Smiley)

    This thread is seriously digressing from what I intend it to be, a description of my experience with tuning for others who might want to try the same thing. I think we are going in circles here and, it's not that I am running away from the truth, I am really not convinced of anything so far. Smiley How about if we agree to disagree, let me  finish this long thread and we start another one, on "amateurish curves," with us two going back and forth? Smiley


    --

    Regards,
    Can
    997 Turbo + Bilstein Damptronic ( Review ) + ECU Tune ( Review ) + Cargraphic Exhaust ( Oh heavenly noise! )


     
    Edit

    Forum

    Board Subject Last post Rating Views Replies
    Porsche Sticky The moment I've been waiting for... 5/18/22 6:36 PM
    Pilot
     
     
     
     
     
    628125 1306
    Porsche Sticky OFFICIAL: New Porsche 911 Turbo S (2020) 8/6/22 1:00 AM
    W8MM
    263969 1183
    Porsche Sticky SUN'S LAST RUN TO WILSON, WY - 991 C2S CAB LIFE, END OF AN ERA (Part II) 9/29/22 2:35 PM
    blueflame
    158479 1172
    Porsche Sticky Welcome to Rennteam: Cars and Coffee... (photos) 9/14/22 9:50 AM
    Boxster Coupe GTS
    149675 417
    Porsche Sticky Porsche Taycan Turbo S - Short Review 8/10/22 8:51 PM
    WhoopsyM
    131255 538
    Porsche Sticky OFFICIAL: Cayman GT4 RS (2021) 1/15/22 10:41 PM
    watt
    67345 1
    Porsche Sticky OFFICIAL: Porsche 911 (992) GT3 RS - 2022 9/14/22 7:36 AM
    GnilM
    2581 18
    Porsche Cayman GT4 10/5/21 7:04 PM
    Topspeed
    562688 3587
    McLaren McLaren on a winning streak 2/1/22 10:14 PM
    SSO.
    465603 3954
    Porsche OFFICIAL: 991.2 GT3 RS (2018) 11/17/21 5:18 PM
    Rossi
    429479 3256
    Porsche OFFICIAL: 911 R (2016) 2/1/22 9:49 AM
    RCA
    420698 2655
    Porsche 992 GT3 9/29/22 7:01 PM
    Grant
    410050 3714
    Porsche Welcome to the new Taycan Forum! 7/30/22 11:46 AM
    Wonderbar
    176561 1446
    Porsche Donor vehicle for Singer Vehicle Design 2/10/22 9:08 PM
    Topspeed
    176311 772
    AMG AMG GT R 3/13/22 8:52 PM
    spudgun
    149363 834
    Lambo Aventador and SV 5/20/22 5:24 PM
    Topspeed
    145098 710
    Others Tesla 2 the new thread 9/20/22 3:52 PM
    Leawood911
    139193 1837
    Porsche GT4RS 9/26/22 2:03 PM
    Porker
    132889 1114
    Motor Sp. [2021] Formula 1 4/19/22 10:08 PM
    Leawood911
    112959 1590
    Others Bugatti Chiron 8/30/22 4:31 PM
    Josef
    108609 525
    Ferrari Ferrari 812 Superfast 6/12/22 5:09 PM
    watt
    106111 535
    BMW M BMW M2 Rumors 2/28/22 7:42 PM
    Topspeed
    94560 409
    Porsche Red Nipples 991.2 GT3 Touring on tour 9/25/22 5:17 PM
    blueflame
    89557 498
    Lambo Urus (SUV) 6/7/22 1:20 PM
    Topspeed
    88957 593
    Porsche Dave and Gnil @ Nürburgring Nordschleife 7/4/22 10:42 PM
    DaveGordon
    87403 722
    Others Corvette C8 7/18/22 12:40 PM
    WhoopsyM
    85454 443
    Motor Sp. [2022] Formula 1 9/29/22 4:32 AM
    CGX car nut
    70406 1365
    Lambo Huracán EVO STO 7/21/22 8:37 AM
    RCA
    58042 335
    Others Toyota Yaris GR 4/13/22 8:33 PM
    Grant
    58033 640
    Ferrari Wandered to the dark side 8/29/22 9:35 AM
    BiTurbo
    28883 418
    191 items found, displaying 1 to 30.