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    Re: Panamera Turbo S E-Hybrid - Most powerful Panamera (2017)

    but why so heavy? electrical goodies weigh that much?


    Re: Panamera Turbo S E-Hybrid - Most powerful Panamera (2017)

    If the 992 Hybrid adds even half that much weight (350 pounds rather than 700), it'll still be way too heavy...


    --

    73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 16 Cayman GT4, 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550, 79 635CSi


    Re: Panamera Turbo S E-Hybrid - Most powerful Panamera (2017)

    Grant:

    If the 992 Hybrid adds even half that much weight (350 pounds rather than 700), it'll still be way too heavy...

    I agree with Whoopsy two posts above.  The 918 proved that for hybrid sportscars the weight can be addressed due to immediate high torque delivery.


    Re: Panamera Turbo S E-Hybrid - Most powerful Panamera (2017)

    Whoopsy:

    According to factory drivers, the Turbo S is still a monster on the track. I was at Leipzig yesterday and a few of them test drove the Turbo S. The ones that didn't drive it are looking forward to pacing it out on the Leipzig track. 

    People really sometimes paid too much attention to weight alone. They forgot about how engine torque can change the character of a car completely, power makes a car agile. 

    Look no farther than the 918, it was suppose to be a pig, but it's been whipping the P's asses all day long. All because of the instant torque.

    The problem seems that the acceleration of this car is below what is necessary compared to even existing products (Audi RS7, BMW M5, Mercedes AMG etc.) - not to speak of the new M5, new Audi RS models etc.

    To me it feels, Porsche did not deliver with he Panamera turbo s Smiley


    Re: Panamera Turbo S E-Hybrid - Most powerful Panamera (2017)

    So much power, weight and complexity but not enough performance. I refuse to buy a saloon that is heavier than my Cayenne Turbo and slower/equal than all sports sedans that are coming. And the market for this car after the warranty...good luck with that. 


    Re: Panamera Turbo S E-Hybrid - Most powerful Panamera (2017)

    Torque cannot help compensate for the extra stress on tires and brakes. Even more proof that hybrid is a flawed stopgap technology for anything but extreme cars. Heavy, expensive, not enough extra performance. It is a technology showcase for rich people, but in that case the Tesla is a better showing (expect for the autobahn). 

    Making the argument that you save on taxes or fuel on a $200k car that will trade in at half that in 3 years is ridiculous. 


    Re: Panamera Turbo S E-Hybrid - Most powerful Panamera (2017)

    SciFrog:

    Torque cannot help compensate for the extra stress on tires and brakes. Even more proof that hybrid is a flawed stopgap technology for anything but extreme cars. Heavy, expensive, not enough extra performance. It is a technology showcase for rich people, but in that case the Tesla is a better showing (expect for the autobahn). 

    Making the argument that you save on taxes or fuel on a $200k car that will trade in at half that in 3 years is ridiculous. 

    Sorry, that is nonsense. The Tesla (with just an electricral motor) is not any lighter. But with the Porsche you get a real car on the highest level of engineering and not just a compromise Smiley

    Also, neither tires nor brakes will represent a problem with the Porsche - unless you drive 3+ fast laps on the track. With the Tesla you will get beyond the cars limit if you drive quicker on a twisted road. Also, I would not want to brake from 250kph to 0 in the Tesla just once. You might be the first person to ever test it.

    While we complain about the Panamera turbo s in this thread - a Tesla is certainly not even close to this car. A Tesla is mainly offered for the not-so-clever masses that check out cars in the shopping malls (as mentioned in the other thread). That tells a lot...


    Re: Panamera Turbo S E-Hybrid - Most powerful Panamera (2017)

    MKSGR:

     A Tesla is mainly offered for the not-so-clever masses that check out cars in the shopping malls (as mentioned in the other thread). That tells a lot...

    Ouch! Smiley


    --

    ⇒ Carlos - Porsche 991 Carrera GTS


    Re: Panamera Turbo S E-Hybrid - Most powerful Panamera (2017)

    Carlos from Spain:
    MKSGR:

     A Tesla is mainly offered for the not-so-clever masses that check out cars in the shopping malls (as mentioned in the other thread). That tells a lot...

    Ouch! Smiley

    Smiley OK, Markus may have been a little bit harsh here and last time I remember, you were visiting the Aventura Mall as well, Markus...so... Smiley Smiley

    Joking aside: A Tesla is no bargain. A P100D costs around 160k EUR in Germany with most important options and incl. VAT. So the price difference to a Panamera Turbo S isn't really that big, same goes to the Model X and the future Cayenne Turbo S with the same hybrid tech. 

    I assume ELVs are the future, I really don't know because ELVs have so many downsides and I won't even start with resale value because unlike cars with a regular petrol engine, you won't see a Tesla S from today driving around in 10 years. I am actually pretty positive about it. ELV tech changes almost by the month, so today's tech may be obsolete in five years and I doubt that collectors will find most of these cars attractive enough to collect them.

    To be honest, I wouldn't buy any ELV or hybrid model right now anyway. I would only lease. Just imagine a battery and/or charging tech breakthrough at some point in the future, and it will happen (this tech is just too young) and then you can literally see the resale value of any ELV tank over night. Hybrids? Not so much but similar situation: New tech, lots of advances over time and resale value will be horrible.

    This is why I meant that it is going to take at least another 20 years before ELVs will make it to the mass markets. People who drive nowadays new cars costing 15-30k EUR...new...won't be interested in an ELV and the others may have higher expectations when it comes to range, quality and comfort (luxury).

    I do not envy Tesla, this is a very very difficult market. Probably the major reason behind Porsche's hybrid approach and I am pretty sure others will follow. Putting your money (and tech/development) on ELVs only may work for Tesla because they basically have a monopoly in this domain right now but god forbid if the big manufacturers wake up and they will. As soon as this makes sense and as soon as it is profitable for them.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet (2015), Porsche Cayenne S Diesel (2017), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mini JCW (2015)


    Re: Panamera Turbo S E-Hybrid - Most powerful Panamera (2017)

    Carlos from Spain:
    MKSGR:

     A Tesla is mainly offered for the not-so-clever masses that check out cars in the shopping malls (as mentioned in the other thread). That tells a lot...

    Ouch! Smiley

    The perfect scenario  Smiley


    Re: Panamera Turbo S E-Hybrid - Most powerful Panamera (2017)

    MKSGR:

     A Tesla is mainly offered for the not-so-clever masses that check out cars in the shopping malls (as mentioned in the other thread). That tells a lot...

    Their marketing communication is insulting the intelligent car enthusiast. And right after the argument about the ludicrous 0-60 time, the Tesla fanboys quickly change the subject to other trivial matters in which they are equally competent such as the colonization of Mars and the simulated reality in which we all live. They just want to have the complete bullshit package that goes with the brand.


    Re: Panamera Turbo S E-Hybrid - Most powerful Panamera (2017)

    RC:
    Carlos from Spain:
    MKSGR:

     A Tesla is mainly offered for the not-so-clever masses that check out cars in the shopping malls (as mentioned in the other thread). That tells a lot...

    Ouch! Smiley

    Smiley OK, Markus may have been a little bit harsh here and last time I remember, you were visiting the Aventura Mall as well, Markus...so... Smiley Smiley

    Joking aside: A Tesla is no bargain. A P100D costs around 160k EUR in Germany with most important options and incl. VAT. So the price difference to a Panamera Turbo S isn't really that big, same goes to the Model X and the future Cayenne Turbo S with the same hybrid tech. 

    I assume ELVs are the future, I really don't know because ELVs have so many downsides and I won't even start with resale value because unlike cars with a regular petrol engine, you won't see a Tesla S from today driving around in 10 years. I am actually pretty positive about it. ELV tech changes almost by the month, so today's tech may be obsolete in five years and I doubt that collectors will find most of these cars attractive enough to collect them.

    To be honest, I wouldn't buy any ELV or hybrid model right now anyway. I would only lease. Just imagine a battery and/or charging tech breakthrough at some point in the future, and it will happen (this tech is just too young) and then you can literally see the resale value of any ELV tank over night. Hybrids? Not so much but similar situation: New tech, lots of advances over time and resale value will be horrible.

    This is why I meant that it is going to take at least another 20 years before ELVs will make it to the mass markets. People who drive nowadays new cars costing 15-30k EUR...new...won't be interested in an ELV and the others may have higher expectations when it comes to range, quality and comfort (luxury).

    I do not envy Tesla, this is a very very difficult market. Probably the major reason behind Porsche's hybrid approach and I am pretty sure others will follow. Putting your money (and tech/development) on ELVs only may work for Tesla because they basically have a monopoly in this domain right now but god forbid if the big manufacturers wake up and they will. As soon as this makes sense and as soon as it is profitable for them.

     

    I agree. While EV's "may" be the future, that future is not even close yet, not for mainstream application anyway let's be realistic, as they would have to not only come down in price a lot, to be affordable for most and also compensate for the depreciation, but also need to be practical not only for the short distance boring commuter, but also for all other uses cars have and types as most people cannot afford to have one car for each purpose.

    But this is a sportscar forum, and EV will face the biggest challenge in sportscar drivers who are more interested in the driving experience than in the mileage or convenience.

    One thing is to win over the wives daily car, or those that don't like to drive or enjoy driving, or those that like driving and have a sporstcar for the weekends but face a boring commute during the week and are forced to drive a commuter for practicality, or the ocasional poseur that uses cars for show. These are the EV fans, lets face it Smiley

    But another is to win over real sportscar enthusiast, the "full" EV is at a huge disadvantage there for obvious reasons and while someday things may progress so much that that may change it will take longer than the other scenarios.


    --

     

    ⇒ Carlos - Porsche 991 Carrera GTS

     


    Re: Panamera Turbo S E-Hybrid - Most powerful Panamera (2017)

    Totally agree.

    Sports car will be the last to switch. But is the Panamera a sports car? The previous gen surely wasn't and sure enough they were mostly driven by older women around here... That new hybrid car is a monster in every way: performance, price, weight...

    The Tesla S and Panamera are totally opposite in many ways. One seats 4 and has no luggage room, the other can seat 7 (the S sedan, in case you didn't know) and has two very large trunks. One is built for the autobahn, the other is not expected to be driven above 80mph. One seats at the bottom of sales of the luxury sedan segment, the other is on top in the USA. One has a stubbornly fixed infotainment interface, the other is updated monthly via wifi. One has very good electronic nannies that but that will not evolve, the other has an autonomous driving system that gets updates regularly.

    PS: Tesla demonstrated full battery swaps done in 90 seconds. Hard to say how well Tesla interiors will hold up, especially the early ones, but mechanically the car could last a very long time with a new or refurbished battery. We all know their design won's age as gracefully though...


    Re: Panamera Turbo S E-Hybrid - Most powerful Panamera (2017)

    RC:
    Smiley OK, Markus may have been a little bit harsh here and last time I remember, you were visiting the Aventura Mall as well, Markus...so... Smiley Smiley

     

    This was just to check out the people going to the Tesla store Smiley


    Re: Panamera Turbo S E-Hybrid - Most powerful Panamera (2017)

    RC:
    Just imagine a battery and/or charging tech breakthrough at some point in the future, and it will happen (this tech is just too young) and then you can literally see the resale value of any ELV tank over night. Hybrids? Not so much but similar situation: New tech, lots of advances over time and resale value will be horrible.

    This is why I meant that it is going to take at least another 20 years before ELVs will make it to the mass markets. People who drive nowadays new cars costing 15-30k EUR...new...won't be interested in an ELV and the others may have higher expectations when it comes to range, quality and comfort (luxury).

    I do not envy Tesla, this is a very very difficult market. Probably the major reason behind Porsche's hybrid approach and I am pretty sure others will follow. Putting your money (and tech/development) on ELVs only may work for Tesla because they basically have a monopoly in this domain right now but god forbid if the big manufacturers wake up and they will. As soon as this makes sense and as soon as it is profitable for them.

    I 100% agree with your analysis Smiley


    Re: Panamera Turbo S E-Hybrid - Most powerful Panamera (2017)

    Current hybrids, current electrics are both imperfect stop gap designs, but between the 2, the hybrids hold the upper hand simply it isn't being dictated by how long it takes to charge a battery. 

    The game will surely changed when a manufacturer can provide recharging technology and facilities that can fully charge a car in 5 mins with the same density of charging stations like current gas stations.

    At that time, gas hybrid will be the dinosaurs, same with pure gas engine cars.

     


    --

     

     


    Re: Panamera Turbo S E-Hybrid - Most powerful Panamera (2017)

    Whoopsy:

    Current hybrids, current electrics are both imperfect stop gap designs, but between the 2, the hybrids hold the upper hand simply it isn't being dictated by how long it takes to charge a battery. 

    The game will surely changed when a manufacturer can provide recharging technology and facilities that can fully charge a car in 5 mins with the same density of charging stations like current gas stations.

    At that time, gas hybrid will be the dinosaurs, same with pure gas engine cars.

     

    Smiley 

    Pure engine cars will remain interesting (not sure how fuel prices will evolve though, either they go up or down) but hybrids will not be interesting anymore.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet (2015), Porsche Cayenne S Diesel (2017), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mini JCW (2015)


    Re: Panamera Turbo S E-Hybrid - Most powerful Panamera (2017)

    SciFrog:

    ... But is the Panamera a sports car? The previous gen surely wasn't and sure enough they were mostly driven by older women around here...

    How does one define sports car?  Lots of folks on this board focus on Nordschleife times as an indication.  The 918 was not filling the order books until Porsche was able to break 7 minutes in testing.  Race track pedigree seems important.

    My 2010 Panamera Turbo was fast enough on road courses to be faster than half of the real race cars I was pacing in Porsche Club Racing events.  My times would have put me solidly in the second row of the "slower" cars grid, about a second off the pole. On street tires!

    My 2014 Panamera Turbo is only 4 seconds slower (1:43) than was my 2011 GT3 RS 4.0 (1:39) at Mid-Ohio Sports Car Course with me driving both.  It's really fast around a track and way faster than any Porsche I have ever owned excepting only 962, 918, Carrera GT, and various GT3s.  It's about the same as my old IROC 911RS was on its slicks.  I can suck the headlights out of 90% of the "sports cars" that show up to our PCA driver-ed track events.

    As far as I'm concerned, my Panamera Turbo is a perfectly good "sports car" when 4 seats seem handy.  I expect the new Turbo S to be no different.


    --

     

    Mike

     

    918 Spyder + 991 GT3 RS +Tesla Roadster 1.5 & Model S + Panamera Turbo +  BMW Z8 + BMW 3.0 CSi + Bentley Arnage T


    Re: Panamera Turbo S E-Hybrid - Most powerful Panamera (2017)

    W8MM:
    Panamera Turbo is a perfectly good "sports car" when 4 seats seem handy.

    I had a Porsche track day where I was able to drive Pana Turbo on the track (4 people) and was a passenger (again with 4 people) driven by a Porsche paid driver (driving very hard against another pro in another Pana Turbo with 4 people).  Fairly shocking how capable the car is and very entertaining with 4 people in a "track" car.  Brakes and tires could not last the full day, but enjoyed it.  Particularly surprised at how little understeer there was (perhaps due to having hundreds of pounds in the back seats).


    --

    73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 16 Cayman GT4, 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550, 79 635CSi


    Re: Panamera Turbo S E-Hybrid - Most powerful Panamera (2017)

    It is pretty clear that Porsche has done their homework and know what typical Panamera Turbo/S customers expect from such a car. No worries.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet (2015), Porsche Cayenne S Diesel (2017), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mini JCW (2015)


    Re: Panamera Turbo S E-Hybrid - Most powerful Panamera (2017)

    I once drew My Panamera Turbo S for a 4 day track event. With ceramic brakes, I was in all Carreras 2 and 4s bumpers and actually pulled away from an instructor (!) driving a Carreras 2 s trying to video record me. Great car once you got used to the weight. Had to change all four tires (street tires) and the brake pads in front after, but wow, that car goes....,kiss

    I'm sure the new Turbo S will be great as well, but the weight worries me. The weight will be hard on both breaks and tires, not only on track....cheeky

    Regarding the comparison with the Tesla, I really don't follow. For me up here in Scandinavia,it's just environmental freaks and all the rich people in Oslo (Norway) that buys that. If you have a EV in Oslo, you are welcome to use the buss lane i.e pass the other traffic on your way in to town. But on the other hand, why by a "real" car living in Norway? Their streets are even worse that the ones in U.K......smiley


    Re: Panamera Turbo S E-Hybrid - Most powerful Panamera (2017)

    The farmer:

    ...all the rich people in Oslo (Norway) that buys that. If you have a EV in Oslo, you are welcome to use the buss lane i.e pass the other traffic on your way in to town. But on the other hand, why by a "real" car living in Norway?

    I don't get why people live in Norway at all SmileySmiley


    --

    2015 981 Cayman GT4 | Powerkit White - The fastest car on Rennteam
    2013 Audi S3 | Glacier White


    Re: Panamera Turbo S E-Hybrid - Most powerful Panamera (2017)

    For all this analysis of the Panamera Turbo S E Hybrid, any news on whether there will be a conventional Turbo S to up the bhp  game for some of the "up-engined" competitors?


    Re: Panamera Turbo S E-Hybrid - Most powerful Panamera (2017)

    996FourEss:

    For all this analysis of the Panamera Turbo S E Hybrid, any news on whether there will be a conventional Turbo S to up the bhp  game for some of the "up-engined" competitors?

    Add electric is the new performance pak.


    --

    Mike

    918 Spyder + 991 GT3 RS +Tesla Roadster 1.5 & Model S + Panamera Turbo +  BMW Z8 + BMW 3.0 CSi + Bentley Arnage T


    Re: Panamera Turbo S E-Hybrid - Most powerful Panamera (2017)

    W8MM:
    SciFrog:

    ... But is the Panamera a sports car? The previous gen surely wasn't and sure enough they were mostly driven by older women around here...

    How does one define sports car?  Lots of folks on this board focus on Nordschleife times as an indication.  The 918 was not filling the order books until Porsche was able to break 7 minutes in testing.  Race track pedigree seems important.

    My 2010 Panamera Turbo was fast enough on road courses to be faster than half of the real race cars I was pacing in Porsche Club Racing events.  My times would have put me solidly in the second row of the "slower" cars grid, about a second off the pole. On street tires!

    My 2014 Panamera Turbo is only 4 seconds slower (1:43) than was my 2011 GT3 RS 4.0 (1:39) at Mid-Ohio Sports Car Course with me driving both.  It's really fast around a track and way faster than any Porsche I have ever owned excepting only 962, 918, Carrera GT, and various GT3s.  It's about the same as my old IROC 911RS was on its slicks.  I can suck the headlights out of 90% of the "sports cars" that show up to our PCA driver-ed track events.

    As far as I'm concerned, my Panamera Turbo is a perfectly good "sports car" when 4 seats seem handy.  I expect the new Turbo S to be no different.


    --

     

    Mike

     

    918 Spyder + 991 GT3 RS +Tesla Roadster 1.5 & Model S + Panamera Turbo +  BMW Z8 + BMW 3.0 CSi + Bentley Arnage T

    Good point. So is the Cayenne Turbo S a sport car too? You have to put the limit somewhere... Very few people GOP to the track though...


    Re: Panamera Turbo S E-Hybrid - Most powerful Panamera (2017)

    The farmer:

     

    I'm sure the new Turbo S will be great as well, but the weight worries me. The weight will be hard on both breaks and tires, not only on track....cheeky

     

     

    Actually the brakes will be ok, it will have regen braking and I believe the 1st 30% of braking power will be from the regeneration.

     


    --

     

     


    Re: Panamera Turbo S E-Hybrid - Most powerful Panamera (2017)

    Whoopsy:
    The farmer:

     

    I'm sure the new Turbo S will be great as well, but the weight worries me. The weight will be hard on both breaks and tires, not only on track....cheeky

     

     

    Actually the brakes will be ok, it will have regen braking and I believe the 1st 30% of braking power will be from the regeneration.

    Good information!  The 918 is pretty easy on brakes for the same reason.


    --

    Mike

    918 Spyder + 991 GT3 RS +Tesla Roadster 1.5 & Model S + Panamera Turbo +  BMW Z8 + BMW 3.0 CSi + Bentley Arnage T


    Re: Panamera Turbo S E-Hybrid - Most powerful Panamera (2017)

    996FourEss:

    For all this analysis of the Panamera Turbo S E Hybrid, any news on whether there will be a conventional Turbo S to up the bhp  game for some of the "up-engined" competitors?

    This is the only Panamera Turbo S in the pipeline, no regular car coming.


    Re: Panamera Turbo S E-Hybrid - Most powerful Panamera (2017)

    absent:
    996FourEss:

    For all this analysis of the Panamera Turbo S E Hybrid, any news on whether there will be a conventional Turbo S to up the bhp  game for some of the "up-engined" competitors?

    This is the only Panamera Turbo S in the pipeline, no regular car coming.

    True. 


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet (2015), Porsche Cayenne S Diesel (2017), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mini JCW (2015)


    Re: Panamera Turbo S E-Hybrid - Most powerful Panamera (2017)

     


     
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