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    997 Turbo Supertest and my thoughts

    Sorry for adding my "wisdom" that late but I had the usual things to do...work, work and...family...and work.

    After reading the Sport Auto Supertest of the 997 Turbo, I was pretty disappointed. 7:54 min...only 2 seconds faster than a 996 Turbo with 60 HP less and street tires, a car more than 6 years old? Ouch.
    Then, I started to compare the results from the Nuerburgring with the results from Hockenheim. I also compared the 997 Turbo track times with the 997 GT3 track times. Honestly...something is wrong.

    I understand the Hockenheim time and it is only logical that the GT3 is a tick faster on the same tires, simply because the lower weight is a huge advantage on such a tight track, despite the lack of power compared to the 997 Turbo. So yes, the Hockenheim track time is logical and I think it is valid.

    What about the Nordschleife time? Slowlier than the GT3? With 65 HP more, AWD and a top speed of 282 kph? The fastest time the GT3 achieved was 273 kph, still pretty impressive (and telling a lot about the power figure of the test car ) Actually, the 997 Turbo should have gained around 3-4 seconds compared to the GT3, maybe even slightly more. So what happened? Was the tested 997 Turbo underpowered? I doubt it, judging by the performance figures. Was the tested GT3 too powerful? Maybe but this still wouldn't explain the track time difference between both.

    Here is my theory of what happened:
    Horst v. Saurma, the well known editor-in-chief of Sport Auto and certified racing car driver, had difficulties driving the 997 Turbo on the Nordschleife. He admitted it in the Supertest and believe it or not, I actually believe him. He actually confirmed what I told people over here at Rennteam.com several times but apparently a lot of people didn't believe me. The 997 Turbo IS tricky to drive...with PSM turned off and Sport mode (Sport Chrono) activated. Porsche apparently has chosen a very annoying (for an AWD car) oversteer setup for the 997 Turbo, making it fun to drive in drifting competitions but in real life, this heavy oversteer isn't fun at all after some time. This is one reason why I hate it driving the 997 Turbo with PSM turned off, simply because it is dangerous and makes the car pretty much unpredictable at high speeds. You need a lot of driving skills to manage to "survive" such "fun", trust me.

    To be able to reproduce Horst v. Saurma's experience, I put Michelin Sport Cup N0 tires on my Turbo to experience myself how much the tire setup influences this "tricky" behaviour.
    Well, the Pilot Cup tires are great for twists and turns but they really suck on the Autobahn or very fast tracks. The steering gets more nervous and more direct (which is good at slow speeds and narrow curves but not that pleasant at 300 kph in an Autobahn curve) and the tires need to get warm first. With cold Michelin Sport Cup tires, the 997 Turbo shows heavy understeer (actually it is more of a sliding... ) and even heavier oversteer. As soon as the tires are warm enough to be very sticky and provide a lot driving fun at slower speeds in twists and turns, the behaviour of the tires changes completely: no more understeer but still a pretty annoying oversteer, even more than with the stock tires, no matter if Sport Chrono is turned on and PSM is turned on or off.

    Meaning: you have to be completely nuts to get Sport Cup tires unless you really want to track race the car on a regular basis, trying to squeeze out the last possible fraction of a second. Honestly: I think that although the stock tires (Pilot Sport 2) aren't THAT sticky as the Cup tires (warm), they provide a much better overall capability than the Cup tires, especially for street driving. Just imagine how long it takes to warm up the tires when it is cold outside, I was just lucky we had outside temperatures of 25*C and sun over the past few days.

    Bottom line is, believe it or not: I think that the Nordschleife track time would have been better with stock tires, as weird as this may sound. I won't even start to get into an argument regarding Tiptronic and manual because I think that there isn't much difference on the Nordschleife. The acceleration advantage of the Tiptronic would be eaten up by the more responsive manual and the LSD.

    The 997 Turbo is still a fantastic car and you shouldn't let the Sport Auto Supertest confuse you. Check out the Hockenheim time and you'll understand.
    Also, it is NOT Horst v. Saurma's fault that he didn't like the tricky behaviour and apparently had problems dealing with that. I have the same problems when turning PSM off, one reason why I don't do that anymore.
    I think that Porsche made two mistakes in the 997 Turbo development and unfortunately the Supertest unveilled these mistakes pretty well: the PASM suspension setup isn't really track worthy, no matter how well it may work but more important is the HORRIBLE oversteer setup of the AWD.

    What use is it to the driver if Porsche puts on of the most advanced electronically controlled AWD systems in the 997 Turbo if they program an extreme oversteer setup to this AWD? I really don't understand why they did that. Yes, my 997 Turbo has traction problems in tight turns, incredible. My 543 HP tuned RS-Tuning 996 Turbo NEVER had traction problems and even with PSM turned off, it showed less oversteer than my current 997 Turbo. I just don't get it.

    Maybe the whining of customers regarding the too "perfect" and neutral AWD setup of the 996 Turbo made Porsche change their philosophy. Personally, I don't like it and I hope there will be sooner or later some sort of electronic update/upgrade to correct this mistake.

    Of course I'm no engineer and I'm not a professional race car driver anymore. Maybe my opinion is just biased by my personal experience but exactly here's my point: Porsche needs to build their cars for their customers, not to satisfy a falsely understood sportiness which actually turns to be a "tricky" driving behaviour.

    The 997 Turbo is difficult to drive at the limit, I said that many times before Horst v. Saurma tested the car for Sport Auto. It is time that Porsche takes this serious and tries to adapt the AWD setup and maybe even the tire setup to offer a more neutral experience, even at the cost of losing some drifting fun.

    Regarding my Pilot Cup tires: I'm stuck with them and I leave them on for further experience. Hopefully I get the chance to testdrive them a bit more extensively on a track, for comparison reasons. More to come for sure...

    Re: 997 Turbo Supertest and my thoughts

    Christian,

    It was a real pleasure to read your well-long description of 997 turbo drive dynamics!

    You were the first one who warned us here that 997 turbo is pretty tricky to drive on(or near) the limit. I found out myself that warning was truly a real one. Congrats on the fact the you were brave enough to post your honest comment here.

    Regarding your guess that 997 turbo could be actually faster on the Ring with Pilot Sport N1 then with Cup's NO-you are also on something here...

    But, Hockenheim time with Pilot Sports N1 is 1.13,7min and with Cups NO 1.11,9min so, your guess on Nordschleife may be right becuase configuration of the Ring is pretty different from the one on the Hockenheim and could favor normal tires...

    Also, you touched the fact the 90% of current and future 997 turbo owners here will never drive their car at more then 7/10 so, they will never be in the position to experience this strange PTM setup...

    997 turbo is with some minor flaws an excellent car indeed(in both versions manual with LSD or TIP) IMHO.


    Kreso

    Re: 997 Turbo Supertest and my thoughts

    Thanks. Doesn't the article mention they tried regular tires and got 2 secs slower? 7:56

    Re: 997 Turbo Supertest and my thoughts

    RC, I dont think the 997C4S shows the same handling quirks as the TT and it has AWD, PASM and the gyro sensors/controllers etc..

    Maybe the edgy handling is the TT's extra power trying to work thru soft engine mounts, the "comfort" springs and even more weight. And tire selection just magnifies the issue.

    There might be a magic cure of spring specs and engine mounts, but I bet you the changed ride and noise would not be what typical customers would want to pay TT money for.


    Re: 997 Turbo Supertest and my thoughts

    997C4S uses the old viscous differential from the 996tt, not the PTM system that the 997tt uses which is derived from the Cayenne.

    Re: 997 Turbo Supertest and my thoughts

    Trip thats right,but the at the limit edgy handling is coming from how the chassis loads up. I dont think the different awd system is the initial or main culprit.

    Re: 997 Turbo Supertest and my thoughts

    Quote:
    JimFlat6 said:
    Trip thats right,but the at the limit edgy handling is coming from how the chassis loads up. I dont think the different awd system is the initial or main culprit.



    I tend to agree with you.

    Perhaps Porsche decided to soften its ride versus the 996tt to satisfy the GT customer base? Coming from an SL500, the ride is about as stiff as I would want it. But that won't make many "hardcore" enthusiasts happy, as is very evident on this forum. Unfortunately, the stiffer setting is only useful on really smooth surfaces. Too bad they didn't offer a middle setting - that could have been the trick?

    Does anyone know if the std suspension setting is softer than the 996tt or 997C2?

    RC - thanks for your "usual" fair and thorough analysis. I also think the steering is very sensitive, especially at speed. Again, is this more than the previous 996tt? Why would Porsche do so? It can be dangerous unless you're careful.

    IMO it's hard enough to duplicate acceleration times. Duplicating track times is almost impossible - just too many variables to deal with, especially on a long circuit like the Ring.

    Don't let one test fool you. If it matters so much to you, perhaps you should wait for more tests or further analysis. As I wrote earlier about this subject, it would be great to see a head-to-head between the 996tt & 997tt.


    Re: 997 Turbo Supertest and my thoughts

    Quote:
    JimFlat6 said:
    Trip thats right,but the at the limit edgy handling is coming from how the chassis loads up. I dont think the different awd system is the initial or main culprit.



    Porsche usually manages pretty well to offer ANY desireable setup in the 911, this is what always surprised me about the 911. Yes, the 997 Turbo uses a much more advanced electronically controlled AWD system (compared to the Carrera 4/4S) and this is why the setup of the power distribution can actually be adjusted, to a certain limit of course, by software. I remember that many 996 Turbo owners made complaints about the too neutral setup (dumb thing to do, neutral is actually good because it makes you fast ), so maybe Porsche decided to have a different approach with the 997 Turbo, offering more oversteer and a more "typical" 911 behaviour. To be honest, I don't like it. It is fun, right but sooner or later you get annoyed by it because you can't "shut it off" and it makes you slowlier. I remember when I went from standstill through a 90*(!) left curve in my 996 Turbo RS-Tuning with the throttle fully pressed and the rear was rock solid and I took the curve almost at full throttle, of course at a low speed but anyway. When I try the same thing in my 997 Turbo, it is impossible. The rear starts slipping and if PSM is turned on, I get traction problems and the PSM kicks in, slowing me down. If the PSM is turned off, the rear tries to "kiss" the boardwalk curbstone and if I don't reduce the throttle, I destroy a rear rim. Really...I tried hard but the 996 Turbo had a much better AWD setup than the 997 Turbo in my opinion. Maybe the 997 Turbo AWD is more adaptive, whatever this means but personally, I prefer the more neutral setup.

    Of course the new Pilot Cup tires don't make things better, on the contrary but they can be pretty addictive when driving through tight twists and turns. At higher speeds, even on the track, they suck in my opinion but I suppose this really depends on what kind of setup one prefers. Maybe I got too old for this kind of stuff...

    Re: 997 Turbo Supertest and my thoughts

    RC, Thanks for the review...insightful as always. In your opinion is the deficiencies in the AWD system a software related matter than can be sorted out by Porsche or is it likely more complicated than just a software change?

    Re: 997 Turbo Supertest and my thoughts

    Maybe Porsche chassis engineers had to compromise their specifications with the code monkeys who did the integration software for PASM,PSM,ABCDFG etc. Maybe they couldnt get it to the right performance balance to please both SL and hardcore customers.

    PASM did bring some improvement not mentioned here yet - diagonal pitching has been tamed a bit. But to achieve that Buick like improvement maybe caused a reduction in chassis optimization elsewhere.

    And yes, neutral handling is best But as you recall many testers claimed the 996TT was not fun because they couldnt easily exploit oversteer in the 996TT. Like they are the real driving experts?

    You cant please all of the people all of the time. So Porsche please offer a optional sport suspension for the TT.


    Re: 997 Turbo Supertest and my thoughts

    Quote:
    LoranTw said:
    RC, Thanks for the review...insightful as always. In your opinion is the deficiencies in the AWD system a software related matter than can be sorted out by Porsche or is it likely more complicated than just a software change?



    Like I said, I'm no engineer, I don't know. I had a discussion with someone involved in PASM development a while ago and from his description, I think that the AWD setup on the 997 Turbo can somehow be adjusted through software up to a certain point. I wish I had more details.

    Re: 997 Turbo Supertest and my thoughts

    Were the new Pilot Cup tires even developed in conjunction with the 997 Turbo? I really don't think so. The GT3 was developed specifically to use these tires, not the Turbo.

    I think it was the BMW M6 Supertest where there was a similar issue with tires. They replaced the standard tires with stickier Corsa tires and the handling got messed up big time.

    Re: 997 Turbo Supertest and my thoughts

    Excellent and objective analysis. Does anyone know what time Walter Roerhl was able to extract from the 997TT on the Ring?

    BTW, I need to remind you that Saurma may have problems with the 997TT but he is worse in a Ferrari. A couple of years ago I stated that is why he never has good times on the Ring in a Ferrari. He really doesn't know how to drive them. Just add the 997TT to the list.

    Re: 997 Turbo Supertest and my thoughts

    Improved PASM/ suspension tuning needed.

    Re: 997 Turbo Supertest and my thoughts

    Nick, has your car arrived in Germany for Walter to test yet?

    I say put up or shut up. Either air freight your car and pay Walter to test it on the Ring the same day as a Porsche tow truck or 997TT or give up on your Ferrari hoax. Your hoax isnt too bad, afterall we see F430s winning on tracks and TT's only winning championship car wash tests. But still, its time to fish or cut bait! Get Walter, loan him your car, rent him a 997TT and start the testing.

    As you know full well, by contract he can't test a car for the Ferrari factory, but with your money and your car I am sure that an arrangement could be made. You can afford it, do it! Prove your point once and for all!

    As for Sauma, he was not the problem. It was the 997TT that had the issues noted, just like with the other nouveau digitized sleds for boulevardiers that pass as sports cars these days - 599GTB, M6, et al.. Keep buying technology and you will eventually learn that software coding is a game of mathematical compromises.

    Re: 997 Turbo Supertest and my thoughts

    Jim, your assuming Walter knows how to drive a Ferrari. I am not so sure he can.

    Understand this: whether it be a 997TT, F430, Gallardo, AM, BMW, MB and so on, they all have had their souls exorcised to some extent some more than others. The reason is simple. Government regulation and environmental issues. The trend will continue and if anything get worst.

    The "raw" cars are slowly being phased out with future models consigned exclusively to track work.

    Re: 997 Turbo Supertest and my thoughts

    Nick, their souls have been exorcized, as you say, as much to meet the luxury desires of their many souless parvenu buyers as it has for safety and emissions regulations.

    But please, after so many "Nicktations" about Walter Roerhl and Ferrari etc., could you avail a mere fraction of your wallet to provide conclusive evidence of your claims by financing a test? Its certainly within your means to do so.

    On this matter you should surely skin your own skunk!

    Re: 997 Turbo Supertest and my thoughts

    I thought Walter ran a 7;49 in the 997TT?
    Anyway, they need to develop a x73 setup for the TT pronto!

    Re: 997 Turbo Supertest and my thoughts

    Jim, if it mattered to me I would not have a problem doing it. But I can say without hesitation that if the 997TT ran the Ring in 7.20 I would not buy it because to me it is meaningless. The high performance of any these cars on US roads and highways is as useful as and as valuable as Enron stock.

    Re: 997 Turbo Supertest and my thoughts

    I took a new 430F1 for a few laps at a local 1.8 mile track, shod with scrubbed-in Corsas, aligned and lowered. The car felt very agile and I would be surprised if it was not comparable to the TT at the ring.

    Re: 997 Turbo Supertest and my thoughts

    Now it makes sense why it took nearly a yr post-launch for P's marketing machine to admit how marginally improved 997TT's NBR time is....despite 6yrs to advance its mechanical/hardware/software tech....IMO, though 997TT is one of world's 5 best cars today, P's engineers (and senior execs) should be ashamed of this product's relative real-world capabilities when compared to 599/CL63...

    Suspect P/F/MB are beginning to realize 99% of their repeat custs have zero interest in tracks.....and like to be able to interchangeably utilize their perf/GT/luxury cars to both drive to office daily (sometimes in rain ) and to enjoy on wkends on sometimes bumpy twisties....

    Always an engineering challenge to develop motors w/sufficient mid-range, effortless tq; fast, but smooth, paddleshifter trannies; chassis precision/damping/tires/ground clearance that optimally address high-speed, bumpy fwys as well as tight (sometimes bumpy) mtn twisties and urban roads/pkg garage ramps, etc etc....

    But, would observe F addressed all of these conflicting challenges (except passive safety ) brilliantly w/the 4000lb 599 for wkends and occasional daily-use ....and the 4600lb CL63 is prob an optimal daily-use luxury coupe and occasional wkend twisties car ....in this competitive milieu, IMO, 997TT appears ancient and poorly compromised.....no latest-tech paddleshifter tranny (not even a buggy PDK 1.0 ); still has glaring turbo lag and an effeminate exhaust note...yet lacks Bluetooth/iPod compat, adult-sized fuel tank and trunk space for mere urban commuting duty....

    Don't know what % of oper profits 997TT represents for P, but maximizing near-term margins by underinvesting in productive R&D...and losing one's repeat cust base is rarely a smart long-term business strategy, esp in a relatively stagnant (in terms of both volume and pricing), but competitive mkt for $150K+ discretionary, perf/luxury cars, where many repeat buyers want compelling, but daily-useable, technologies/perf/precision....

    Re: 997 Turbo Supertest and my thoughts

    Quote:
    VKSF said:
    Now it makes sense why it took nearly a yr post-launch for P's marketing machine to admit how marginally improved 997TT's NBR time is....despite 6yrs to advance its mechanical/hardware/software tech....IMO, though 997TT is one of world's 5 best cars today, P's engineers (and senior execs) should be ashamed of this product's relative real-world capabilities when compared to 599/CL63...

    Suspect P/F/MB are beginning to realize 99% of their repeat custs have zero interest in tracks.....and like to be able to interchangeably utilize their perf/GT/luxury cars to both drive to office daily (sometimes in rain ) and to enjoy on wkends on sometimes bumpy twisties....

    Always an engineering challenge to develop motors w/sufficient mid-range, effortless tq; fast, but smooth, paddleshifter trannies; chassis precision/damping/tires/ground clearance that optimally address high-speed, bumpy fwys as well as tight (sometimes bumpy) mtn twisties and urban roads/pkg garage ramps, etc etc....

    But, would observe F addressed all of these conflicting challenges (except passive safety ) brilliantly w/the 4000lb 599 for wkends and occasional daily-use ....and the 4600lb CL63 is prob an optimal daily-use luxury coupe and occasional wkend twisties car ....in this competitive milieu, IMO, 997TT appears ancient and poorly compromised.....no latest-tech paddleshifter tranny (not even a buggy PDK 1.0 ); still has glaring turbo lag and an effeminate exhaust note...yet lacks Bluetooth/iPod compat, adult-sized fuel tank and trunk space for mere urban commuting duty....

    Don't know what % of oper profits 997TT represents for P, but maximizing near-term margins by underinvesting in productive R&D...and losing one's repeat cust base is rarely a smart long-term business strategy, esp in a relatively stagnant (in terms of both volume and pricing), but competitive mkt for $150K+ discretionary, perf/luxury cars, where many repeat buyers want compelling, but daily-useable, technologies/perf/precision....



    I truly do no understand some of your remarks...

    Mercedes S/CL63 models... These cars are luxury sofas IMHO! Come on! CL63 is way slower then M6 on the road and specially on the track. Your beloved CL63 can not come close to 997 turbo at any possible situation. Even if you add 030 Package to CL63 it is still big,heavy coupe with nice engine. CL63 weights around 2000kg's according to some German mags.

    599 is on the other hand pretty nice sports GT and even this car is not faster on the track then current Gallardo according to Britsh EVO mag. In fact it achived almost the same time as 997 turbo with help of Ferrari factory crew!

    You love 599 and are true MERCEDESEIN addict so, your comment are in that fashion...

    IMHO there is NO compare between CL63(or any AMG 63 model) and 997 turbo(manual with LSD or TIP)-997 turbo is a true sportscar and CL63 is a big coupe for eldery people...

    Re: 997 Turbo Supertest and my thoughts

    RC, Great post and for all non TT owners very interesting to read. However, I would agree with Kreso that probably +90% of the TT owners will never explore the limits of the car for more than a couple of corners and those who do - simply have to buy a GT3 ! A TT is for me the best alround car on the planet - but it can only do this by sacrifying some things. Let's see it from a Swiss view : In which other car can you go with more fun to the mountains with yr ski's on the roof ? I have seen once the NBR in winter full of snow. How about a comparison to any other car then ? 2-5 seconds behind ??? 2-5 min if at all ....

    Re: 997 Turbo Supertest and my thoughts

    Quote:
    RC said:
    Bottom line is, believe it or not: I think that the Nordschleife track time would have been better with stock tires, as weird as this may sound.



    Christian, excellent write-up

    Your explanation sounds plausible. There have been other SuperTests were standard tires might have been faster than sports tires (just thinking of the M6).

    The unfortunate implication would be that you need different tires in different situations (NBR, fast AB, narrow country roads, HHR, etc.) to be fast... Just look at the rather disappointing HHR time on standard tires...

    Porsche should have invested more time in a proper development of the new AWD (the old AWD was not bad either...) and PASM

    Re: 997 Turbo Supertest and my thoughts

    Quote:
    nberry said:
    Excellent and objective analysis. Does anyone know what time Walter Roerhl was able to extract from the 997TT on the Ring?




    The unfortunate fact is: there might be many "sources" for a WR time on the ring. However, we all should not care too much for this kind of marketing BS. Whether it is GM or Porsche claiming "NBR times" - don't forget its all marketing blabla.

    The SportAuto Supertest is the benchmark

    Re: 997 Turbo Supertest and my thoughts

    Quote:
    Stealth said:
    Improved PASM/ suspension tuning needed.



    In this case the best tuning seems to be a 997TT with the suspension and AWD of the 996TT...

    BTW: There is such product... Just thinking of the RT12

    Re: 997 Turbo Supertest and my thoughts

    Quote:
    RC said:
    Quote:
    JimFlat6 said:
    Trip thats right,but the at the limit edgy handling is coming from how the chassis loads up. I dont think the different awd system is the initial or main culprit.



    Porsche usually manages pretty well to offer ANY desireable setup in the 911, this is what always surprised me about the 911. Yes, the 997 Turbo uses a much more advanced electronically controlled AWD system (compared to the Carrera 4/4S) and this is why the setup of the power distribution can actually be adjusted, to a certain limit of course, by software. I remember that many 996 Turbo owners made complaints about the too neutral setup (dumb thing to do, neutral is actually good because it makes you fast ), so maybe Porsche decided to have a different approach with the 997 Turbo, offering more oversteer and a more "typical" 911 behaviour. To be honest, I don't like it. It is fun, right but sooner or later you get annoyed by it because you can't "shut it off" and it makes you slowlier. I remember when I went from standstill through a 90*(!) left curve in my 996 Turbo RS-Tuning with the throttle fully pressed and the rear was rock solid and I took the curve almost at full throttle, of course at a low speed but anyway. When I try the same thing in my 997 Turbo, it is impossible. The rear starts slipping and if PSM is turned on, I get traction problems and the PSM kicks in, slowing me down. If the PSM is turned off, the rear tries to "kiss" the boardwalk curbstone and if I don't reduce the throttle, I destroy a rear rim. Really...I tried hard but the 996 Turbo had a much better AWD setup than the 997 Turbo in my opinion. Maybe the 997 Turbo AWD is more adaptive, whatever this means but personally, I prefer the more neutral setup.

    Of course the new Pilot Cup tires don't make things better, on the contrary but they can be pretty addictive when driving through tight twists and turns. At higher speeds, even on the track, they suck in my opinion but I suppose this really depends on what kind of setup one prefers. Maybe I got too old for this kind of stuff...



    Dear Christian,

    I don't agree 100% with you. The 997 tt has not only a oversteer problem it has an understeer and oversteer problem. Everyone who has tested the car has realized this behaviour. All Porsche including Gt3 have understeer. But the 997 tt, due to controlled AWD, starts first with understeer and then changes to oversteer. My 997 4S X51 -20 mm is very neutral, much better to drive then the 997 tt. Mine 997 tt is coming in two weeks and my 997 4s is going in three days .

    But one thing is clear, if you don't push to the limit you will have so much fun with the 997 tt. That's the reason I have bought one

    AM

    Re: 997 Turbo Supertest and my thoughts

    Quote:
    VKSF said:
    in this competitive milieu, IMO, 997TT appears ancient and poorly compromised.....no latest-tech paddleshifter tranny (not even a buggy PDK 1.0 ); still has glaring turbo lag and an effeminate exhaust note...yet lacks Bluetooth/iPod compat, adult-sized fuel tank and trunk space for mere urban commuting duty....

    ... maximizing near-term margins by underinvesting in productive R&D...and losing one's repeat cust base is rarely a smart long-term business strategy, esp in a relatively stagnant (in terms of both volume and pricing), but competitive mkt for $150K+ discretionary, perf/luxury cars, where many repeat buyers want compelling, but daily-useable, technologies/perf/precision....




    Re: 997 Turbo Supertest and my thoughts

    Interesting points RC, thank you, informative write up.
    But Porsche is an engineer's firm, and engineers believe in numers.
    Durheimer said it himself, the only benchmark for Porsche new models are NR times and the 997 Turbo NR time is disappointing, end of story.

    Excuses are excuses, numbers, speak for themselves.

    VKSF,
    still waiting for pics of your Comfort/ commuters/ GT/ sport car/ etc etc etc!!!

    Re: 997 Turbo Supertest and my thoughts

    Quote:
    nberry said:
    Excellent and objective analysis. Does anyone know what time Walter Roerhl was able to extract from the 997TT on the Ring?

    BTW, I need to remind you that Saurma may have problems with the 997TT but he is worse in a Ferrari. A couple of years ago I stated that is why he never has good times on the Ring in a Ferrari. He really doesn't know how to drive them. Just add the 997TT to the list.



    Nick, it shows that you're a lawyer. I don't know if my English is that bad but I never said that Horst v. Saurma is a bad driver. I just said that he had problems with the 997 Turbo "setup" (PASM, AWD, tires, whatever) and that I back up his experience. Don't try to read something else from my post.

    I didn't say a word about Ferrari, I claimed that Porsche has chosen, in my personal opinion, a bad AWD setup for the 997 Turbo for whatever weird reasons. This doesn't mean that I don't like the 997 Turbo and this doesn't mean that I would buy a F430 instead. Just for the book.

     
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