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    Re: GT4RS

    One of my racing instructors told me that this is a no no to "step on the gas and lift and step on the gas an lift" in corners. He called it "phone calling" indecision


    Re: GT4RS

    BONES:

    GT3 RS was done on R

    Not the .1


    --

    1988 Peugeot 205 Rallye / 2004 Porsche 996 GT3 RS  / 2018 Mercedes-AMG E63 S / 2020 Ferrari 812SF


    Re: GT4RS

    Porker:
    BONES:

    GT3 RS was done on R

    Not the .1

    I was looking for the .2  What was the time for the .1?

    Edit-  It looks like a 7;20


    Re: GT4RS

    Here is 992 GT3 and GT4 RS split screen - can really see difference in gearing (as well as straight and cornering speeds):

    Split screen GT4 RS vs 992 GT3 - YouTube


    --

    22 GT3 Manual pending, 73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 18 GT3 Manual, 16 Cayman GT4, 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550, 79 635CSi


    Re: GT4RS

    hunterone:

    One of my racing instructors told me that this is a no no to "step on the gas and lift and step on the gas an lift" in corners. He called it "phone calling" indecision

     

    Jörg was one of Porsche's 'top level' instructors they sent when I attend the very first Porsche Racing Experience level 1 program back in 2017. Mark Webber was also there but only as a guest advisor. 

    The 'on and off' accelerator mid corner seems like he is testing the grip level, he wants full power but the grip isn't there for him to use 100% throttle. He isn't completely 'off', those are partial lifts to control the front end/rear end balance with weight transfers instead of steering inputs. It's a mid engine car so very responsive after all. 

    Looks to be a real driver's car. More responsive to inputs than even the 992 GT3. While the new front end of the GT3 transform how the car behaves as compared to the 991 GT3, it's still a rear engine car and is lazier to respond to driver inputs than a proper mid engine car. 

     


    --

     

     

     

     


    Re: GT4RS

    Grant:
    Whoopsy:

    The plot thickens. 

    Could there GT4RS actually be a sub-7 car but Porsche didn't do it.....

    Entirely possible.  I also think it's possible that the 992 GT3 has more left to improve as well (I think they broke 7 min on the 2nd or 3rd run and stopped there - didn't look to be on ragged edge in video).

    I think it's fairly obvious that Porsche has specific lap time targets in mind for all their models - they shoot at the targets (presumably set by Marketing), not all-out best time possible.

    I think they wanted to break 7 minutes in the 992 GT3 and they wanted about a 10 second gap to the GT4 RS.

    If the 992 GT3 had broken 7 minutes by a larger margin, it would simply make their upcoming GT3 RS lap less impressive.  Though I assume it will be Much faster than GT3 or previous RS.

    When they break out their secret weapon, Kevin Estre, that's how you know they're really trying hard Smiley
    --

     

    22 GT3 Manual pending, 73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 18 GT3 Manual, 16 Cayman GT4, 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550, 79 635CSi

     

     

    Misha thinks the aborted lap was the car having an issue, I actually think they aborted the lap because the car was on pace to break 7 minutes. Porsche have real time telemetry and can predict the lap times. They did the 7:04 first, then the aborted lap, entirely possible that they got enough data points and can confidently predict a sub 7 minute lap and hence aborted that faster lap. 

     


    --

     

     


    Re: GT4RS

    Whoopsy:
    Grant:
    Whoopsy:

    The plot thickens. 

    Could there GT4RS actually be a sub-7 car but Porsche didn't do it.....

    Entirely possible.  I also think it's possible that the 992 GT3 has more left to improve as well (I think they broke 7 min on the 2nd or 3rd run and stopped there - didn't look to be on ragged edge in video).

    I think it's fairly obvious that Porsche has specific lap time targets in mind for all their models - they shoot at the targets (presumably set by Marketing), not all-out best time possible.

    I think they wanted to break 7 minutes in the 992 GT3 and they wanted about a 10 second gap to the GT4 RS.

    If the 992 GT3 had broken 7 minutes by a larger margin, it would simply make their upcoming GT3 RS lap less impressive.  Though I assume it will be Much faster than GT3 or previous RS.

    When they break out their secret weapon, Kevin Estre, that's how you know they're really trying hard Smiley
    --

     

    22 GT3 Manual pending, 73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 18 GT3 Manual, 16 Cayman GT4, 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550, 79 635CSi

     

     

    Misha thinks the aborted lap was the car having an issue, I actually think they aborted the lap because the car was on pace to break 7 minutes. Porsche have real time telemetry and can predict the lap times. They did the 7:04 first, then the aborted lap, entirely possible that they got enough data points and can confidently predict a sub 7 minute lap and hence aborted that faster lap.

    Very sneaky!  While the Sport Auto laps are always relatively slower, they should illustrate the pecking order among the various models a little more honestly…


    --

    22 GT3 Manual pending, 73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 18 GT3 Manual, 16 Cayman GT4, 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550, 79 635CSi


    Re: GT4RS

    BONES:
    Porker:
    BONES:

    GT3 RS was done on R

    Not the .1

    I was looking for the .2  What was the time for the .1?

    Edit-  It looks like a 7;20

    I think that lap was partially wet as well...


    --

    22 GT3 Manual pending, 73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 18 GT3 Manual, 16 Cayman GT4, 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550, 79 635CSi


    Re: GT4RS

    Yes, I'm a little surprised by the Misha video.

    Jorg Bergmeister was one of Porsches best GT Works drivers (and the tallest). He raced with Freisinger Motorsport, The Racer's Group, Petersen Motorsports White Lightning Racing, Flying Lizard Motorsports, Porsche AG, Porsche Manthey, and Project 1 Motorsport.

    This is a driver beyond reproach.

    He may be getting a little long in the tooth (aren't we all?) but he certainly knows his way around a Porsche cockpit.

    Also - Porsche has already said that this was a camouflaged vehicle.

     

     


    Re: GT4RS

    Spyderidol:

    Yes, I'm a little surprised by the Misha video.

    Jorg Bergmeister was one of Porsches best GT Works drivers (and the tallest). He raced with Freisinger Motorsport, The Racer's Group, Petersen Motorsports White Lightning Racing, Flying Lizard Motorsports, Porsche AG, Porsche Manthey, and Project 1 Motorsport.

    This is a driver beyond reproach.

    He may be getting a little long in the tooth (aren't we all?) but he certainly knows his way around a Porsche cockpit.

    Also - Porsche has already said that this was a camouflaged vehicle.

     

     

     

    With the front fender vents covered. They didn't reveal the design of that yet. 

    They do lose some front end grip without the vent, so Jorg lifting mid corner could very well be him moving the weight forward to get the front end to bite. 

    Misha sort of confirmed it with his comparison with the regular GT4 on cornering speed, the GT4RS runs on Cup R, it can't be doing the same or slower cornering speed than the GT4. 

    Now if the aborted lap was indeed a faster lap that Porsche didn't want to disclose, taking off the fender covering would only increase it's cornering speed and hence a even faster lap time. 

    This GT4RS could indeed be a monster in sheep's clothing. 


    --

     

     


    Re: GT4RS

    There is also a possibility that they covered the fender vents to lessen drag and increase top speed.


    Re: GT4RS

    It's a vent, not a gaping opening that ingest air. Not a drag inducing component. Vented air merges with the air flow that goes around the side windows and back. 

    Misha could be correct that the vent produced too much downforce for the Ring. But then again it's sort of hard to believe when Porsche have had vents for like 6 years now and you'd think they would have solved that problem by now.

    They also been running the car at Weissach for close to 4 years now. tens of thousands of test kms. 

    I suspect they have a different design for the vent pattern that they are covering up. 

    Something else, could they have put the Cup car front end to the GT4RS 

     


    --

     

     


    Re: GT4RS

    Maybe the front vents do not exist and that is just camo


    Re: GT4RS

    Regarding GT4 brakes this in not the first time that there are some questions

    auto motor und sport did a braking test with non usual results

    https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/test/porsche-718-cayman-gt4-bremsentest/

     


    Re: GT4RS

    xpto:

    Regarding GT4 brakes this in not the first time that there are some questions

    auto motor und sport did a braking test with non usual results

    https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/test/porsche-718-cayman-gt4-bremsentest/

     

     

    The article tells us absolutely nothing however.

    Cold ambient temperature during testing, of course the track focus tires is going to fare less well than the street oriented tires.

    Which also means it isn't the brakes fault, but tire traction. 🤷🏻‍♂️

    What Misha mentioned as brake problem would likely be ABS related, or the hydraulic system related. Or brake cooling with the fender vents blocked off. 


    --

     

     


    Re: GT4RS

    The write something about PCCB and the size of the rear brakes, as far as i can understand with google translatorindecision


    Re: GT4RS

    my deposit is down, sounds like maybe 10 months...


    Re: GT4RS

    xpto:

    The write something about PCCB and the size of the rear brakes, as far as i can understand with google translatorindecision

     

    More like describing the test car has PCCB and with bigger brakes it should have stop better. Later on they do the tire difference thing. 


    --

     

     


    Re: GT4RS

    watt:

    my deposit is down, sounds like maybe 10 months...

    Smiley 


    --

    2016 Porsche 981 GT4 | Racing Yellow
    2018 Audi S6 Avant | Ibis White


    Re: GT4RS

    Whoopsy:

    It's a vent, not a gaping opening that ingest air. Not a drag inducing component. Vented air merges with the air flow that goes around the side windows and back. 

    Misha could be correct that the vent produced too much downforce for the Ring. But then again it's sort of hard to believe when Porsche have had vents for like 6 years now and you'd think they would have solved that problem by now.

    They also been running the car at Weissach for close to 4 years now. tens of thousands of test kms. 

    I suspect they have a different design for the vent pattern that they are covering up. 

    Something else, could they have put the Cup car front end to the GT4RS 

     

    I beg to differ Whoopsy. If you look at a picture of the 919 Evo you will see that the fender ducts (whole) are removed. Also most air vents in at the front of the car. This was done to decrease drag. Any air that goes through the body of the car produces drag.


    Re: GT4RS

    Also - If you look at a picture of "Grello", you will see that they have air ducts.


    Re: GT4RS

    So,,,If the air ducts were covered to prevent "bottoming out" then that is more likely due to the spring/damper rate not being the best setting for the Ring. (understandable because the GT4 RS is not a 100% track car).

    I suspect it was done more likely to reduce drag on the Dottinger Hoe. (and explains why Porsche used a pre-production "camouflaged " model)

    Lets see if those ducts "magically" appear on tests done on shorter tracks without enormous straights.


    Re: GT4RS

    Spyderidol:

    So,,,If the air ducts were covered to prevent "bottoming out" then that is more likely due to the spring/damper rate not being the best setting for the Ring. (understandable because the GT4 RS is not a 100% track car).

    I suspect it was done more likely to reduce drag on the Dottinger Hoe. (and explains why Porsche used a pre-production "camouflaged " model)

    Lets see if those ducts "magically" appear on tests done on shorter tracks without enormous straights.

    This explains why the next 3RS will have Active aero...


    --

    22 GT3 Manual pending, 73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 18 GT3 Manual, 16 Cayman GT4, 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550, 79 635CSi


    Re: GT4RS

    Whoopsy:

    ..........The 'on and off' accelerator mid corner seems like he is testing the grip level, he wants full power but the grip isn't there for him to use 100% throttle. He isn't completely 'off', those are partial lifts to control the front end/rear end balance with weight transfers instead of steering inputs. It's a mid engine car so very responsive after all. 

     

     

     

     

    Senna used a rapid "on and off" throttle technique on some corners.....it was one of his unique driving techniques.


    Re: GT4RS

    Spyderidol:

    Also - If you look at a picture of "Grello", you will see that they have air ducts.

     

    Can't quite find the pic for you. But the original prototype's intake configuration, with 2 side intake from the quarter windows merging into a Y duct that goes into the engine, was basically piece by piece added to the 718 GT4 CS's optional intake kit. 

    From the in car video of the GT4RS, it would seems Porsche had found a more elegant solution to hide the intake duct behind panels.

    The bigger scoops on the lower air intake behind the doors are for ingesting more air to cool the hotter engine. 


    --

     

     


    Re: GT4RS

    Spyderidol:
    Whoopsy:

    It's a vent, not a gaping opening that ingest air. Not a drag inducing component. Vented air merges with the air flow that goes around the side windows and back. 

    Misha could be correct that the vent produced too much downforce for the Ring. But then again it's sort of hard to believe when Porsche have had vents for like 6 years now and you'd think they would have solved that problem by now.

    They also been running the car at Weissach for close to 4 years now. tens of thousands of test kms. 

    I suspect they have a different design for the vent pattern that they are covering up. 

    Something else, could they have put the Cup car front end to the GT4RS 

     

    I beg to differ Whoopsy. If you look at a picture of the 919 Evo you will see that the fender ducts (whole) are removed. Also most air vents in at the front of the car. This was done to decrease drag. Any air that goes through the body of the car produces drag.

     

    You could be right about reducing drag, but how much top speed can it add? It's a curious move by Porsche for sure. 

    Firs time they did the cover the vent thing was when the 991.1 GT3RS was doing testing, to hide the fact that they put vents on the fenders. 

    When they first test the GT2RS, everyone expected the vents to be there, they still covered it up to hide the fact that they put bigger ones there. 

    One more thing, last time Porsche used a 'unfinished' car to set a Ring time, it was the 918 if I remember correctly. Even that car only differs with non functioning active aero and a one piece roof instead of a 2-piece. 


    --

     

     


    Re: GT4RS

    The drag reduction wont have a huge effect on top speed on a "normal" track, but at the ring it will have quite an impact given the length of time you are actually at full tilt on that ginormous straight. 

    Anyway, it will certainly be interesting to see the evolution.

    I suspect that the whole "vents on the fender" is a result of the FIA mandated holes (in the case of Prototypes) or vents in the  fenders in order to help avoid "lift" ( remember Schumacher with the Mercedes at Le Mans and Yannick Delmas in the Porsche GT1 at Road Atlanta?) on fast sections of some tracks.

    As the RS models are the homologated models for the RSR and R cars , I think this is why they are included.

    So in conclusion: They solve one problem (lift) and adds to the downforce (in the front) , but creates another (drag). As usual and like many things in racing, a balance must be found.

     


    Re: GT4RS

    What about weight ?

    Under 1,350 kg ?


    Re: GT4RS

    BiTurbo:

    What about weight ?

    Under 1,350 kg ?

    I am thinking the GT4 RS will likely weigh as much or more than a GT4, but maybe with the expensive Weissach package it will be a tad lighter than GT4.


    --

    22 GT3 Manual pending, 73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 18 GT3 Manual, 16 Cayman GT4, 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550, 79 635CSi


    Re: GT4RS

    It should be few kg lighter as standard and 20 to 30 extra with the proper package. 


    --

    GT Lover, Porsche fan

    991.2 GT3 manual

    Cayenne GTS 2014


     
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