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    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    ALDO:

    So who is going to order a Taycan? 

    My configuration would be 207k Euro. Then I thought, hmmm, for a car that can do approx 350-400km on one battery. A test drive will be needed for sure. If the car gives a lot of pleasure maybe the price can be justified Smiley But I am not sure based on what I know today.


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    I'm very tempted but want to drive it first to better understand if it fits my needs


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    My dealer told me he has already 46 firm orders.......- I have no clue how fast they can deliver but I think the line is already very long.....


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    better to wait for lower models and all the gizmos to be rectified. the turbo and turbo S prices are exaggerated . let alone the joke option list.

     


    --

    GT Lover, Porsche fan

    991.2 GT3 manual, 991 GT3 2014(sold)

    Cayenne GTS 2014


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    schmoell:
    CGX car nut:
    schmoell:

    Beautiful car; inside and outside.  Likely quite high consumption, "eyewatering price" as Scifrog predicted and the rear trunk will kill more than one back. But can't wait to get my hands on that car 

    Are you really surprised by the price?  It is priced, at least in the States, correspondingly less than the Panamera Turbo S and the outgoing 991.2 Turbo S.  

    While many seem determined to compare the Taycan to the Tesla Model S and even the Model E, the Taycan represents something totally different.  This car, from its specifications, is devastatingly quick from point-to-point, offering a different approach than that found in a Tesla.  While Tesla represented a solid effort, Musk's various machinations and fumblings have negatively impacted the company.  

    Under Musk, Tesla is an unfocused mess that has squandered an early lead in the EV space.  Volkswagen Group is a juggernaut, and it is starting show that it has the wherewithal to successfully pivot to EVs.  The pricing of the Taycan will not cannibalize sales from the Panamera, leading to an increase in market share through conquest purchases for the Taycan.  The Audi e-tron is an Audi that is also an EV.  That is attractive to premium mass market, which, inherently is larger in size than the first-mover/technologist market.  Next, Volkswagen will demonstrate a level of prowess with the new MEB platform and the ID 3.  Will each vehicle meet or exceed a set of fixed parameters when compared with Tesla?  No, but that isn't the intent.  Instead Volkswagen Group will nibble away at the edges of Tesla as it concentrates on vehicles that aren't a direct match for Tesla.  

    It will be interesting to see what Mercedes-Benz and BMW will show at Frankfurt this year too.

    I was not comparing the Taycan price with Tesla and did not intend to cause more Tesla bashing; sorry if I didn't make that clear. The challenge for Porsche at this point is to set a pricing reference for EVs, esp since they are the first in the premium segment.  They more or less took the ICE pricing grid, which might be one of the reasons they also use the ICE type names; we all know that a Turbo S is 200k+. It will be interesting to see if the market is willing to pay these prices given that EVs are significantly cheaper to build.

    In concept the EV is less expensive to build; however, battery pack pricing still remains a very costly proposition that shifts the economics toward the ICE being less expensive.  Porsche is probably also providing healthier margins to the dealers as compensation for lower maintenance costs in the future.  That dealer network needs something to survive if it is required to make costly infrastructure upgrades.  


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    BjoernB:

    My dealer told me he has already 46 firm orders.......- I have no clue how fast they can deliver but I think the line is already very long.....

    Porsche is even talking about having cars in North America by the end of the year. 


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    All the dealers have a hefty list of customer deposits. The question will be how many will actually buy the car? I would wager many of them will experience sticker shock.

    As Nick so aptly described EV’s and I have posted, they are nothing more than appliances. 


    --

    Assume most people are stupid and hope they surprise you.


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    Wonderbar:

    I like it initially, and will post some more impressions when I see the car in person next Tuesday in Frankfurt.  And you can bet that within a couple of years the rear hips will get wider and the battery packs will get lighter. But now, for a starter, I think it will impress and convince many buyers.. Certainly more sporty and unique than Tesla at the moment.

    Wonderbar, it would be great if you could kindly sit in the rear to check the legroom. There are no pictures or dimensions of the rear seats yet (only one YouTube review of prototype Taycan showing limited legroom in rear), and my London dealer said today they will not get a demonstrator until early 2020. Thanks!

    boytronic,

    Autoblog (https://www.autoblog.com/2019/09/04/porsche-taycan-interior/) has interior pictures.  Backseat is surprisingly roomy, but very difficult to get into.  (Probably the same thing my 8 year old niece would say about my 911Smiley.)


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    The Tesla S has suddenly become much cheaper!


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    207k Euro?? They must have found the holy grail with this car. It is called “turbo“ but has no turbo engine and no real sound! For me the whole car looks ungainly and the pricing is ridiculous! This price can not be justified. Never ever! But if you like it...Smiley


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    964C2:

    The Tesla S has suddenly become much cheaper!

    Because Porsche Smiley


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    I didn't notice that the Taycan is that large: For comparison:

    Width (mirror to mirror)/Length:
    Tycan: 2144mm/4963mm
    Panamera: 1937mm/5049mm 
    Tesla S: 2187mm/4979mm (pls no Tesla bashing :) )

    Height of the Taycan differs between Turbo (1381mm) and Turbo S (1378mm)

    Bildschirmfoto 2019-09-05 um 16.14.56.png


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    Because it IS a Panamera!


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    waiting for PDK:
    Wonderbar:

    I like it initially, and will post some more impressions when I see the car in person next Tuesday in Frankfurt.  And you can bet that within a couple of years the rear hips will get wider and the battery packs will get lighter. But now, for a starter, I think it will impress and convince many buyers.. Certainly more sporty and unique than Tesla at the moment.

    Wonderbar, it would be great if you could kindly sit in the rear to check the legroom. There are no pictures or dimensions of the rear seats yet (only one YouTube review of prototype Taycan showing limited legroom in rear), and my London dealer said today they will not get a demonstrator until early 2020. Thanks!

    boytronic,

    Autoblog (https://www.autoblog.com/2019/09/04/porsche-taycan-interior/) has interior pictures.  Backseat is surprisingly roomy, but very difficult to get into.  (Probably the same thing my 8 year old niece would say about my 911Smiley.)

    On the question of rear legroom, see video starting at the 9:32 mark: https://youtu.be/VW-NXFTWPA8. Looks somewhat snug for those over six foot.  


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    schmoell:

    I didn't notice that the Taycan is that large: For comparison:

    Width (mirror to mirror)/Length:
    Tycan: 2144mm/4963mm
    Panamera: 1937mm/5049mm 
    Tesla S: 2187mm/4979mm (pls no Tesla bashing :) )

    Height of the Taycan differs between Turbo (1381mm) and Turbo S (1378mm)

    Bildschirmfoto 2019-09-05 um 16.14.56.png

     

    Well for comparison:

    BMW 5 series 1868mm/4936mm

    BMW 7 series 1902mm/5098mm

    Taycan's proportions with the Panamera isn't all that different than a BMW 5 vs a BMW 7.

     

     


    --

     

     


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    farina:

    Because it IS a Panamera!

    I don't think so. My guess is, that that wanted to make a sporty car (therefore the low roof line) but ran out of space for the battery pack (therefore the width) - just a wild guess though. AMS has a short article (German) explaining what was taken from the Panamera in case you are interested.   

     


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    Here is a comparison of the Taycan Turbo S and the Tesla S. It isn't pretty.

    https://www.autoblog.com/2019/09/04/porsche-taycan-tesla-model-s-comparison/


    --

    Assume most people are stupid and hope they surprise you.


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    nberry:

    Here is a comparison of the Taycan Turbo S and the Tesla S. It isn't pretty.

    https://www.autoblog.com/2019/09/04/porsche-taycan-tesla-model-s-comparison/

    let's make comparison between hyundai accent and Megane RS Trofeo Cup...Smiley

    Porsche and Tesla can't be compared in absolutely no possible technical criteria except size and same family.


    --

    GT Lover, Porsche fan

    991.2 GT3 manual, 991 GT3 2014(sold)

    Cayenne GTS 2014


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    nberry:

    Here is a comparison of the Taycan Turbo S and the Tesla S. It isn't pretty.

    https://www.autoblog.com/2019/09/04/porsche-taycan-tesla-model-s-comparison/

    The key phrase is, “on paper.”   Without a physical comparison between both cars such analyses are relatively meaningless.   For example, while a Model S P100 is quicker from 0-60 mph, it is under a very controlled set of parameters that most would never encounter in the real world. Enabling Ludicrous+ requires battery conditioning that takes, at the very minimum, ten minutes.  Meanwhile, Porsche has stated that the Taycan’s acceleration times are accessible at all times and at any SoC.  If true, that’s significant. 


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    Guy's, your prejudice is showing. The comparisons on paper have meanful data. While it is true that some of the Tesla performance numbers are one off, in real driving world experiences how often will someone be constantly accelerating at maximum throttle? The delta in price is one half. 

    I'll be the first to acknowledge the Porsche is probably better engineered but is worth another $100,000 or more given what we know about the on paper comparisons? 

    Stop thinking with your hearts and use your heads.kiss


    --

    Assume most people are stupid and hope they surprise you.


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    nberry:

    Here is a comparison of the Taycan Turbo S and the Tesla S. It isn't pretty.

    https://www.autoblog.com/2019/09/04/porsche-taycan-tesla-model-s-comparison/

    This article is written by a writer who has no clue about cars... Basically he compares 0-60 times. Of course the Taycan is much more expensive than a Tesla S100. However, one car is a "good enough for US street driving". The other is high-performance, not overheating even under heavy usage, best brakes, best chassis, Porsche drive feel etc.

    If one has to save a penny the Taycan is not the perfect car. If you have the money it is obviously far superior to anything Tesla has ever built Smiley


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    Since I just took delivery for my Panamera Turbo S not long ago, and that one I got it all the way up there in price at CAD$275k and change, I went only and config a Taycan Turbo S as close to my Panamera as possible, basically that just means checking every box lol.

    i ended with up CAD$242k. More than 10% cheaper. 

    Seems like a bargain to me.

     


    --

     

     


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    nberry:

    Guy's, your prejudice is showing. The comparisons on paper have meanful data. While it is true that some of the Tesla performance numbers are one off, in real driving world experiences how often will someone be constantly accelerating at maximum throttle? The delta in price is one half. 

    I'll be the first to acknowledge the Porsche is probably better engineered but is worth another $100,000 or more given what we know about the on paper comparisons? 

    Stop thinking with your hearts and use your heads.kiss

     

    Nick, when they are not in the same price bracket, there shouldn’t be a comparison at all. If we use that comparison logic, then a Camry is a perfect competitor to a Mercedes S class, they both are ICE powered and seats 5, the Camry is $100k cheaper and is the Mercedes worth 100k more? 


    --

     

     


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    The Taycan will overheat later than a Tesla, but it will (as will ICE cars, if driven hard enough).   For the Nordschleife record the drivers had to find spots on the track where they can lift the throttle and let the batteries cool down a bit. Porsche is a great company with great products but they can not defeat physics. They can push boundaries by finding different tradeoffs, eg adding a 2nd gear for the rear motor (which adds weight, note that they didn't do that for the front motor) or add additional cooling (which increases consumption).  The only magic I can see is the pricing of the Taycan.

    Is the 0-60 time relevant for what most of us will do with this car ? I don't think so. The by far biggest complaint I have for my Tesla is the suspension (well, how they treat me as a customers for such an expensive car is even worse). This is just so "US street driving" and I'm sure that the Taycan fixes that. The 0-60 time is pointless since both cars are like noiseless rockets on normal roads anyway. As Nick wrote, these cars are a fridges on wheels; there are nice and expensive fridges and cheaper once and both will cool down the soda wink


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    Whoopsy:

    Since I just took delivery for my Panamera Turbo S not long ago, and that one I got it all the way up there in price at CAD$275k and change, I went only and config a Taycan Turbo S as close to my Panamera as possible, basically that just means checking every box lol.

    i ended with up CAD$242k. More than 10% cheaper. 

    Seems like a bargain to me.

     

    It is a lot of money for a sedan. It all depends on how much pleasure the car can create Smiley Also, as mentioned in this thread, Porsche should share depreciation with the customer through reasonable lease offers. The customer shall not bear the depreciation risk of such a new concept...


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    schmoell:

    The Taycan will overheat later than a Tesla, but it will (as will ICE cars, if driven hard enough).   For the Nordschleife record the drivers had to find spots on the track where they can lift the throttle and let the batteries cool down a bit.

    If they had to - they did not need much time... 7.42 is quite good, isn't it Smiley 


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    MKSGR:
    Whoopsy:

    Since I just took delivery for my Panamera Turbo S not long ago, and that one I got it all the way up there in price at CAD$275k and change, I went only and config a Taycan Turbo S as close to my Panamera as possible, basically that just means checking every box lol.

    i ended with up CAD$242k. More than 10% cheaper. 

    Seems like a bargain to me.

     

    It is a lot of money for a sedan. It all depends on how much pleasure the car can create Smiley Also, as mentioned in this thread, Porsche should share depreciation with the customer through reasonable lease offers. The customer shall not bear the depreciation risk of such a new concept...

    Leasing rates are even more eyewatering :)


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    CGX car nut:
    waiting for PDK:
    Wonderbar:

    I like it initially, and will post some more impressions when I see the car in person next Tuesday in Frankfurt.  And you can bet that within a couple of years the rear hips will get wider and the battery packs will get lighter. But now, for a starter, I think it will impress and convince many buyers.. Certainly more sporty and unique than Tesla at the moment.

    Wonderbar, it would be great if you could kindly sit in the rear to check the legroom. There are no pictures or dimensions of the rear seats yet (only one YouTube review of prototype Taycan showing limited legroom in rear), and my London dealer said today they will not get a demonstrator until early 2020. Thanks!

    boytronic,

    Autoblog (https://www.autoblog.com/2019/09/04/porsche-taycan-interior/) has interior pictures.  Backseat is surprisingly roomy, but very difficult to get into.  (Probably the same thing my 8 year old niece would say about my 911Smiley.)

    On the question of rear legroom, see video starting at the 9:32 mark: https://youtu.be/VW-NXFTWPA8. Looks somewhat snug for those over six foot.  

    Many thanks guys. I guess I’ll need to test the rear seats in real life. It is disappointing though that there is no 3rd seatbelt / ability to put a child in the middle though. 


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    The Volkswagen Group, like many, but not all, automakers, is highly skilled in product planning, so there is an apparent market for the Taycan, at the price range and sales volumes set.   All automobiles can be construed as appliances but the power of branding is what differentiates a premium product from that considered a mere commodity and Porsche is a market-driven company.  That's what separates Porsche from the mass market producers, even as sales volumes have dramatically increased over the past few years.   Recall that Porsche recently posted that it produces, on average, less than two identical 911s every year.  No mass automaker can make that claim.

    This is an essential difference that many fail to appreciate about the Taycan versus the Tesla cars.  Tesla, in order to gain badly needed production efficiencies, provides the consumer with very options and color combinations.  Porsche, on the other hand, is known for its manufacturing flexibility to meet most of its consumer requests.  If one wants a Taycan Turbo S in Brewster Green with pepita, that combination, for a price, will be available in a few months after production has commenced.  

    Returning to the direct comparisons of the Taycan and Model S.  Simple comparison of base statistics does little to distinguish one from the other.  Most ICE consumers may compare fuel economy statistics but ultimate range is seldom considered.  The EV market is nearing a tipping point where the consumer, especially with readily accessible rapid charging, will no longer consider range a primary purchasing determinant.   

    The Taycan is sufficiently different from the Model S and Model 3 that there is ample room in the growing market for all of these cars.  On an aside, the Audi e-tron in the States is quickly approaching a 2019 annual sales figure to that of the A7.  By the end of the year is is possible for the e-tron to outsell the A7.  

     

     


    Re: Porsche Mission E...the future of Porsche?

    Good information, thanks...


     
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