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    Re: Rumor - WR turning 7:37's today in a GT2

    Quote:
    Guy said:

    Forget whether the times are accurate or not, there's simply no way Porsche would issue a press release or brochure that referred to any other manufacturers cars, let alone a Dodge Viper, which no-one in Europe cares about at all, or an SL's ring time which is an irrelevence.

    Guy



    I have a similar thought re. PAG, except in this case, perhaps rather than a mere hoax, this is another "leak" of an "internal" dealer marketing dossier from that possible PCNA source that also leaked the GT2 info. on the net last month?

    Re: Rumor - WR turning 7:37's today in a GT2

    If the GT2 is so slow then someone needs to publish some ring times to prove it. Until then, the Porsche time stands, anything else is just bench racin'!
    'nuff said

    Re: Rumor - WR turning 7:37's today in a GT2

    Quote:
    TT Gasman said:
    If the GT2 is so slow then someone needs to publish some ring times to prove it. Until then, the Porsche time stands, anything else is just bench racin'!
    'nuff said



    You would do well to listen to some more experienced board members here, especially MKSGR.

    Speaking of trusting factory claims, do you also believe that the newest, greatest brand of deodorant will truly have hot babes crawling all over you? After all, it's in the commercial, so it must be true .

    Re: Rumor - WR turning 7:37's today in a GT2

    Quote:
    Crash said:
    Quote:
    TT Gasman said:
    If the GT2 is so slow then someone needs to publish some ring times to prove it. Until then, the Porsche time stands, anything else is just bench racin'!
    'nuff said



    You would do well to listen to some more experienced board members here, especially MKSGR.

    Speaking of trusting factory claims, do you also believe that the newest, greatest brand of deodorant will truly have hot babes crawling all over you? After all, it's in the commercial, so it must be true .



    Gasman, I'm with you! Not that I'm going to spend too many sleepless nights worrying about it though. It's all a bit of a storm in a teacup IMHO, very early days yet.

    FWIW, the hot babes ARE all over me like a rash since I started using that new deoderant. Hey wait a minute, maybe it IS a rash!!

    Re: Rumor - WR turning 7:37's today in a GT2

    Yes, but there is a difference!
    When you claim product "A" is better (faster) than product "B" (and you actually name the competitor product)you had better be sure that what you are claiming is true (or at least can be shown to be the case) because if not, you might land up with a legal battle on your hands!

    Re: Rumor - WR turning 7:37's today in a GT2

    Quote:
    Spyderidol said:
    Yes, but there is a difference!
    When you claim product "A" is better (faster) than product "B" (and you actually name the competitor product)you had better be sure that what you are claiming is true (or at least can be shown to be the case) because if not, you might land up with a legal battle on your hands!



    If you think people are going to start dragging one another into court over NBR times, you're possibly taking it all a bit too seriously. Sure it's fun to compare the times and spar with one another about who's best, but let's not make a Federal case out of it.

    The cars we like to talk about all get lap times around the NBR that are within a few percentage points of one another. Fine. But those kinds of differences could easily be accounted for by the many variables that can affect any given performance. Air temp, track temp, track condidion, track cleanliness, humidity, vehicle load (fuel, accessories, carpets, seat types, etc), tyres (type, wear, pressures), engine wear and condition, wind direction, wind speed, etc. etc. Then there's driver aids and settings to say nothing of driver skill, preparation, physical condition and whether or not he's off his game because he didn't get one with the girlfriend the night before.

    Any statistically valid scientific comparison will try to control for as many of these kinds of variables as possible. If you want to compare times, track both cars on the same day, same time, same driver. Do say 10 laps each, 2 at a time, each car taking turns. Make sure they're thoroughly and independently scrutineered. Then take all the data and look at the mean lap times and the standard deviations. Apply a t test or some other statistically valid analysis. If there's a difference at p = .05 or better then maybe you have something worth talking about. However any statistician will tell you that you still have a 1 in 20 chance of drawing the wrong conclusions.

    Sure the numbers are of interest, but as a valid means of comparing cars with similar performance, theyr're about as serious as the tooth fairy.

    Re: Rumor - WR turning 7:37's today in a GT2

    I don't think you got my point.
    I'm not suggesting that this is going to turn into a "federal case".
    What I'm saying is if Porsche's management are allowing untruthful claims to be used in their advertising, then they are allowing the company to be subjected to possible legal action; and that is not exactly good management.
    Quite frankly, having worked in German companies for more than a decade, I just don't see that happening.
    Hey , but what the heck, believe what you want!

    Re: Rumor - WR turning 7:37's today in a GT2

    Quote:
    Turbo Al said:
    Quote:
    Guy said:

    Forget whether the times are accurate or not, there's simply no way Porsche would issue a press release or brochure that referred to any other manufacturers cars, let alone a Dodge Viper, which no-one in Europe cares about at all, or an SL's ring time which is an irrelevence.

    Guy



    I have a similar thought re. PAG, except in this case, perhaps rather than a mere hoax, this is another "leak" of an "internal" dealer marketing dossier from that possible PCNA source that also leaked the GT2 info. on the net last month?



    Agree - AFAIK PAG never has used NBR-times as a marketing-tool in their official (sales-) brochures, though NBR-times ("unofficial" laptimes achieved by P-testdrivers like WR) are mentioned in the product-info brochures which are marked as "for internal use only". However in case of the 997 or 987 no laptimes of competitors are mentioned. The "factory-laptimes" shown in these booklets usually are 5-7 sec faster compared to Sportauto-times, which is more or less 1% difference. IMO really nothing to talk about, as the factory testdrivers (not to talk about WR's driving skills ) do hundreds of laps, whereas AFAIK HvS does only two laps for the Supertest: one orientation lap + one fast lap.

    Just a couple of years ago anybody who has been able to reach a laptime 7% slower than the pole setter has been qualified to drive in the same "class" (and that was F1 ) - anybody may do his own calculation how much seconds this would be at the 20.8 km NoS

    As for making a Federal Case of it: wait until nberry chimes in

    But I also agree with those who think, that it is bad business practice to deliberately use "bad" laptimes of competitors in a brochure (even if it's for internal use only)

    Re: Rumor - WR turning 7:37's today in a GT2

    I guess what surprises me is that people can get so passionate and indignant about stuff from auto manufacturers marketing departments that is widely acknowledged to be mostly BS. Others regard similarly dubious "tests" that are published in some motoring fan mag as though it were the Holy Grail of automotive science. These magazines are entertainment value only for goodness sake, they're not some peer reviewed, erudite scientific journal! Anyone that forms their preference for one car over another based on a few seconds difference in an NBR time published by a manufacturer or a fan mag is incredibly naive IMHO.

    But debating BS vs BS is harmless enough as long as long as nobody takes it too seriously.

    Am I being too cynical? I'm sick with the flu so that's my excuse... please send flowers and get well cards

    Re: Rumor - WR turning 7:37's today in a GT2

    Have a flower and get well soon!
    I agree with you, but this is not a magazine article.It's an advertising brochure which is the company's responsibility.

    Re: Rumor - WR turning 7:37's today in a GT2

    Quote:
    Spyderidol said:
    Have a flower and get well soon!
    I agree with you, but this is not a magazine article.It's an advertising brochure which is the company's responsibility.


    Thanx Spyderidol! Feeling better already. I think the document in question is something internal to Porsche that has been leaked, ie not intended for the public. I may be wrong...
    Hey, I have a hand held laser called a Spyder II! Check it out on wickedlasers.com Off to my sick bed now.

    Re: Rumor - WR turning 7:37's today in a GT2

    I will thanx!
    Get plenty of rest and liquids.

    Re: Rumor - WR turning 7:37's today in a GT2

    Quote:
    Nickoz said:

    If you think people are going to start dragging one another into court over NBR times, you're possibly taking it all a bit too seriously. Sure it's fun to compare the times and spar with one another about who's best, but let's not make a Federal case out of it.

    The cars we like to talk about all get lap times around the NBR that are within a few percentage points of one another. Fine. But those kinds of differences could easily be accounted for by the many variables that can affect any given performance. Air temp, track temp, track condidion, track cleanliness, humidity, vehicle load (fuel, accessories, carpets, seat types, etc), tyres (type, wear, pressures), engine wear and condition, wind direction, wind speed, etc. etc. Then there's driver aids and settings to say nothing of driver skill, preparation, physical condition and whether or not he's off his game because he didn't get one with the girlfriend the night before.

    Any statistically valid scientific comparison will try to control for as many of these kinds of variables as possible. If you want to compare times, track both cars on the same day, same time, same driver. Do say 10 laps each, 2 at a time, each car taking turns. Make sure they're thoroughly and independently scrutineered. Then take all the data and look at the mean lap times and the standard deviations. Apply a t test or some other statistically valid analysis. If there's a difference at p = .05 or better then maybe you have something worth talking about. However any statistician will tell you that you still have a 1 in 20 chance of drawing the wrong conclusions.

    Sure the numbers are of interest, but as a valid means of comparing cars with similar performance, theyr're about as serious as the tooth fairy.



    Well said!!

    Re: Rumor - WR turning 7:37's today in a GT2

    Quote:
    eclou said:
    as an upload if you cannot see that picture



    7:47 --- 158.801 km/h -- Ferrari 599 GTB Fiorano, 620 PS/1805 kg (sport auto 01/07)

    Re: Rumor - WR turning 7:37's today in a GT2

    Quote:
    Crash said:
    Quote:
    TT Gasman said:
    If the GT2 is so slow then someone needs to publish some ring times to prove it. Until then, the Porsche time stands, anything else is just bench racin'!
    'nuff said



    You would do well to listen to some more experienced board members here, especially MKSGR.

    Speaking of trusting factory claims, do you also believe that the newest, greatest brand of deodorant will truly have hot babes crawling all over you? After all, it's in the commercial, so it must be true .



    Listen to "more experienced" board posters or what exactly? Is there some kind of half assed threat implied? For your edification, I have been posting on p car boards for years, just not this particular one. I don't know where you get off with the attitude, I hope your joking. Do not try and tell me what to do, I'm entitled to my own opinion as is anyone else here.
    As to the deodorant, well that depends on how hot the babes are .

    Re: Rumor - WR turning 7:37's today in a GT2

    Quote:
    TT Gasman said:
    Quote:
    Crash said:
    Quote:
    TT Gasman said:
    If the GT2 is so slow then someone needs to publish some ring times to prove it. Until then, the Porsche time stands, anything else is just bench racin'!
    'nuff said



    You would do well to listen to some more experienced board members here, especially MKSGR.

    Speaking of trusting factory claims, do you also believe that the newest, greatest brand of deodorant will truly have hot babes crawling all over you? After all, it's in the commercial, so it must be true .



    Listen to "more experienced" board posters or what exactly? Is there some kind of half assed threat implied? For your edification, I have been posting on p car boards for years, just not this particular one. I don't know where you get off with the attitude, I hope your joking. Do not try and tell me what to do, I'm entitled to my own opinion as is anyone else here.
    As to the deodorant, well that depends on how hot the babes are .



    No threat, just a well-minded suggestion - I tend do act in such a manner as well. Regarding your opinion, you certainly are entitled to it and if you read my statement again you will see that I in no way contested this notion, but the fact remains that there are individuals on Rennteam with absolutely mind-boggling experience regarding these cars, as well as having close ties to the factory. Your opinion, as well as mine, to be precise, pales in comparison.
    Regarding deodorant, the girls better be hot, otherwise I'd want my money back .

    Re: Rumor - WR turning 7:37's today in a GT2

    No worries. Peace.

    Re: Rumor - WR turning 7:37's today in a GT2

    Hi !
    This discussions sounds a little bit ideological to me. In German there is a proverb :" was nicht sein darf, das auch nicht sein kann" (sorry for not translating this. I think here are some guys who can translate. )

    Re: Rumor - WR turning 7:37's today in a GT2

    Quote:
    turbosteff said:
    Hi !
    This discussions sounds a little bit ideological to me. In German there is a proverb :" was nicht sein darf, das auch nicht sein kann" (sorry for not translating this. I think here are some guys who can translate. )



    What isn't allowed to be, that cannot be.

    Re: Rumor - WR turning 7:37's today in a GT2

    Quote:
    turbosteff said:
    Hi !
    This discussions sounds a little bit ideological to me. In German there is a proverb :" was nicht sein darf, das auch nicht sein kann" (sorry for not translating this. I think here are some guys who can translate. )



    Reading your post I have one question: what is it that is not allowed

     
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