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    Re: Tesla

    schmoell:

    What do you think about synthetic fuels for the fun cars ? Too small a market ?

    https://www.motor1.com/news/453621/porsche-investing-in-synthetic-fuels/

    Why do you want synthetic fuel? we are still discovering oil everyday...


    --

    GT Lover, Porsche fan

    991.2 GT3 manual

    Cayenne GTS 2014


    Re: Tesla

    Because it's CO2 neutral ?


    Re: Tesla

    the-missile:
    schmoell:

    What do you think about synthetic fuels for the fun cars ? Too small a market ?

    https://www.motor1.com/news/453621/porsche-investing-in-synthetic-fuels/

    Why do you want synthetic fuel? we are still discovering oil everyday...

     

    Because it means we don't have to pay the Middle East princes billions every year just so they can buy up 10-15-20 copies of limited production cars from Ferrari and Porsche and Lamborghini?

    The Qatar royals alone bought 20 918s. Counting all the royal families in the Middle East, they have close to 50 918s.

     


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    Re: Tesla

    Whoopsy:
    the-missile:
    schmoell:

    What do you think about synthetic fuels for the fun cars ? Too small a market ?

    https://www.motor1.com/news/453621/porsche-investing-in-synthetic-fuels/

    Why do you want synthetic fuel? we are still discovering oil everyday...

     

    Because it means we don't have to pay the Middle East princes billions every year just so they can buy up 10-15-20 copies of limited production cars from Ferrari and Porsche and Lamborghini?

    The Qatar royals alone bought 20 918s. Counting all the royal families in the Middle East, they have close to 50 918s.

    well, biggest producer is and will remain... Russia


    --

    GT Lover, Porsche fan

    991.2 GT3 manual

    Cayenne GTS 2014


    Re: Tesla

    Sure. But we will need a breakthrough in battery technology before this can happen.
    My cruising speed for relaxed driving is usually between 160-220km/h - EVs just perform very poorly in this speed range (in terms of range). I was actually considering getting an EV as a family car this summer but eventually decided against it - the current offerings just have too many compromises at this stage (and I even have a wall charger in my garage). Smiley
    And yes I enjoy engine noise, so enjoy my V8 rumble. Smiley


    Re: Tesla

    the-missile:
    Whoopsy:
    the-missile:
    schmoell:

    What do you think about synthetic fuels for the fun cars ? Too small a market ?

    https://www.motor1.com/news/453621/porsche-investing-in-synthetic-fuels/

    Why do you want synthetic fuel? we are still discovering oil everyday...

     

    Because it means we don't have to pay the Middle East princes billions every year just so they can buy up 10-15-20 copies of limited production cars from Ferrari and Porsche and Lamborghini?

    The Qatar royals alone bought 20 918s. Counting all the royal families in the Middle East, they have close to 50 918s.

    well, biggest producer is and will remain... Russia

    Even more reasons not to give them more money Smiley


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    Re: Tesla

    Tim:

    Sure. But we will need a breakthrough in battery technology before this can happen.
    My cruising speed for relaxed driving is usually between 160-220km/h - EVs just perform very poorly in this speed range (in terms of range). I was actually considering getting an EV as a family car this summer but eventually decided against it - the current offerings just have too many compromises at this stage (and I even have a wall charger in my garage). Smiley
    And yes I enjoy engine noise, so enjoy my V8 rumbleSmiley

    Smiley


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Lamborghini Huracan Performante (2019), Mercedes GLC63 S AMG (2020), Mercedes C63 S AMG Cab (2019), Jeep Grand Cherokee Trackhawk (2019 EU)


    Re: Tesla

    If you go at those speeds a modern Tesla will go around 250 miles on a full charge. Performance during this time will be excellent, so unless you drive that far all the time I might not get your point. 
    I drive down to the lake house all the time now thanks to the car. I hit 80mph mostly and the house is 160 miles away. I do this a couple times a week. No range issues at all as I arrive with 100 miles or so. I can charge at the house in 3 hours and have enough power to return to KC. I costs me around $2 to get there.  I think this is pretty good performance. Of course on the open highways I relax and let the car do most of the driving to keep me alert. The autopilot is getting very good at staying in the lanes. 
    I guess I’m getting old. I enjoy the music from the radio much more than engine sound. (Though not a lambo v10). 
     

    While I understand the enthusiastic car owner very well I also have seen for some time that the average person will obviously pick an EV as soon as they are financially and logistically able to. Hence the stock price.  Say what you will, I called the price right. 


    Re: Tesla

    There's a time and a place for both. I spent my entire 20's mostly daily driving a Porsche that didn't make any power until over 5000 RPM, had rose joint suspension and 6 point belts. And I thought nothing of it. 

    Now a days I can appreciate a quiet conveyance that has a great stereo and a nice interior, while still having enough power to beat someone out at a light to move over a lane as needed. The fun cars are now for fun, not every day.

    Also as much as all of us woudl love to be allowed to have our relaxed cruising speed be 160-220km/h I would think the global subset size of that group is pretty miniscule. You don't make any mass produced car to appease a tiny group of people. 


    --

    Past-President, Porsche Club of America - Upper Canada Region


    Re: Tesla

    Like I mentioned in another post - Tesla has the only competitive product right now in terms of usability (still I've never seen a Tesla drive faster than 120kp/h - I wonder why?).
    However, the current line-up doesn't suit my needs. I need space right now. The Model X is too expensive (at least in Germany) and I also think it looks sort of weird. The Model 3 is quite nice, but too small. 
    So I was mostly looking at the eTron or the EQC. Both just don't cut it.

    I agree for most drivers an EV will be perfect (once they have figured out the charging problem). However, I actually enjoy driving - i.e. I don't need a computer to drive me around and I enjoy the sound of a nice engine.

     


    Re: Tesla

    I`m pretty sure we will have a speed limit in Germany by 2022. We will have elections next year and this will be one of the first measures taken just to make a statement. Smiley


    Re: Tesla

    Tim:

    I`m pretty sure we will have a speed limit in Germany by 2022. We will have elections next year and this will be one of the first measures taken just to make a statement. Smiley

    Could be...but I think the government will have other issues. 

    If the current government loses though (it could happen, I doubt Merkel is going to go for it again)...speed limit guaranteed. Smiley


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Lamborghini Huracan Performante (2019), Mercedes GLC63 S AMG (2020), Mercedes C63 S AMG Cab (2019), Jeep Grand Cherokee Trackhawk (2019 EU)


    Re: Tesla

    RC:
    Tim:

    I`m pretty sure we will have a speed limit in Germany by 2022. We will have elections next year and this will be one of the first measures taken just to make a statement. Smiley

    Could be...but I think the government will have other issues. 

    If the current government loses though (it could happen, I doubt Merkel is going to go for it again)...speed limit guaranteed. Smiley

    You guys tend to forget that the EU commission decides, it is not within the hands of local governments anymore Smiley


    --

    GT Lover, Porsche fan

    991.2 GT3 manual

    Cayenne GTS 2014


    Re: Tesla

    Whoopsy:
    the-missile:
    schmoell:

    What do you think about synthetic fuels for the fun cars ? Too small a market ?

    https://www.motor1.com/news/453621/porsche-investing-in-synthetic-fuels/

    Why do you want synthetic fuel? we are still discovering oil everyday...

     

    Because it means we don't have to pay the Middle East princes billions every year just so they can buy up 10-15-20 copies of limited production cars from Ferrari and Porsche and Lamborghini?

    The Qatar royals alone bought 20 918s. Counting all the royal families in the Middle East, they have close to 50 918s.

     


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    How do we pay the middle east billions every year?


    Re: Tesla

    the-missile:
    RC:
    Tim:

    I`m pretty sure we will have a speed limit in Germany by 2022. We will have elections next year and this will be one of the first measures taken just to make a statement. Smiley

    Could be...but I think the government will have other issues. 

    If the current government loses though (it could happen, I doubt Merkel is going to go for it again)...speed limit guaranteed. Smiley

    You guys tend to forget that the EU commission decides, it is not within the hands of local governments anymore Smiley

    The EU commission decides always based on deals, it is a give and take situation. Otherwise we would already have a EU wide speed limit. If the German government doesn't want a speed limit, we won't get one. However, if we get one (new government), it will be basically impossible to make it go away again. It will stay.

    Many months ago, I heard that VW Group is pushing for a speed limit because of future EVs ("energy consumption" at higher speeds is extremely high). I do not know if this is true. There was also a rumor that EVs will be exempt from a possible speed limit but I doubt this would be possible with the current German constitution.

    A 160 kph speed limit in Germany could be acceptable to many. A 120 kph speed limit not. I guess if there is going to be a speed limit, it will be between 140 and 160 kph. We'll see. A Europe wide speed limit is unlikely for various reasons.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Lamborghini Huracan Performante (2019), Mercedes GLC63 S AMG (2020), Mercedes C63 S AMG Cab (2019), Jeep Grand Cherokee Trackhawk (2019 EU)


    Re: Tesla

    To be clear. EVs are hyper efficient compared to cars. As a result, when the speed increases, it appears that they lose a ton of efficiency but what you are seeing is merely the same wind and rolling resistance an ICE car needs to overcome but because the ICE car is 30% efficient vs 98% the difference in range being impacted by speed seems greater but the overall efficiency and energy cost is still just a fraction of an ICE car. 


    Re: Tesla

    But it still doesn't change the fact regarding range, doesn't matter if electricity is a better quality energy (lower entropy) than chemical energy and therefore allow for a much greater percentage of conversion of that energy into work. The range doesn't "seem" to be impacted more at high speed, it IS impacted more, compounded by the fact that if you find yourself that your range suffered significantly because you drive at speed, with the ICE you stop and fill it up in 5 minutes at any gas station that are everywhere.


    --

    ⇒ Carlos - Porsche 991 Carrera GTS


    Re: Tesla

    Agreed, it’s a matter of pragmatism more than physics...


    Re: Tesla

    An ICE car seem to be impacted less by high speed because it has a gearbox.

    Try the ICE car at 130km/h using the lowest possible gear and compare with an EV.

    The range of the ICE car will drop hard too.


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    There is no try. Just do.

     


    Re: Tesla

    I sincerely hope you are right. What makes me mad is that this is not really about reducing emissions or lowering the death toll - it's just social envy IMO.


    Re: Tesla

    Pentium:

    An ICE car seem to be impacted less by high speed because it has a gearbox.

    Try the ICE car at 130km/h using the lowest possible gear and compare with an EV.

    The range of the ICE car will drop hard too.


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    There is no try. Just do.

     

     

    EXACTLY why the Taycan have a 2 speed gearbox.

    Better acceleration at low speed and better economy at the top end.


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    Re: Tesla

    You guys don’t understand electric propulsion. You can’t compare it to ice engines.  
    While the EV is always efficient the ICE engines masks its huge inefficient use of fuel by dividing its power into gears - which is greatly reflected by the loss of acceleration. It is as though you know it is happening but you refuse to understand it after all these years of shifting gears. Maybe it’s because I drive a manual.  Lol. 
    If you added gears to a Tesla for more range it would have zero impact other than the extra weight.   A taller gear would simply add more resistance and cause more electricity to be used at a lower rpm. 
    Perhaps the biggest benefit for the Porsche is that drive line components are less stressed with the lower gear off the line.  But if you think it help speed or mileage you need to seriously hit the text books. 
    Of course it takes longer to charge for now but it you travel less than 250 miles at a time you actually spend less time fueling or driving to a gas station.   If you have electricity at home. Lol. Some still think that this electric stuff will not ever make it to the home. 

     


    Re: Tesla

    Leawood911:

    You guys don’t understand electric propulsion. You can’t compare it to ice engines.  
    While the EV is always efficient the ICE engines masks its huge inefficient use of fuel by dividing its power into gears - which is greatly reflected by the loss of acceleration. It is as though you know it is happening but you refuse to understand it after all these years of shifting gears. Maybe it’s because I drive a manual.  Lol. 
    If you added gears to a Tesla for more range it would have zero impact other than the extra weight.   A taller gear would simply add more resistance and cause more electricity to be used at a lower rpm. 
    Perhaps the biggest benefit for the Porsche is that drive line components are less stressed with the lower gear off the line.  But if you think it help speed or mileage you need to seriously hit the text books. 
    Of course it takes longer to charge for now but it you travel less than 250 miles at a time you actually spend less time fueling or driving to a gas station.   If you have electricity at home. Lol. Some still think that this electric stuff will not ever make it to the home. 

     

     

    Perhaps you are the one not understandingSmiley

    Do you know what a torque output curve of a electric motor looks like and the efficiency curve? They  goes down the higher the rpm, as electric motors aren't efficient at high rpm, different than a normal engine where engine output rises with rpm. Normal car engines can't rev as high as electric motors, hence why they have gearboxes to reach the higher speed.

    Tesla forgo a gearbox doesn't mean it's the correct way or only way to do things. Tesla omit the gearbox simply because they want to save money. For their performance target, especially for the North American market, the rpm range of their electric motor is good enough, they have no need to tap the upper echelon of the performance scale with a gearbox. 

    Porsche added a gearbox to the Taycan because they want to maintain efficiency at autobahn speed. If they had copied Tesla and skipped the gearbox, the electric motors will be forced to rotate at a highly inefficient rpm range on the autobahn. This is one reason why the Taycan outperform Tesla so much in Germany. 

    Say what you want about range and efficiency numbers manufacturers published. But in the real world, there are plenty of proofs published on YouTube and websites that states that a Taycan with the 2 speed gearbox isn't that far behind a Tesla on the highway range, exceeding the government rating while the Tesla struggled to even match it's government rating. 


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    Re: Tesla

    Just in case you do not want to face the truth and google the graphs, here is one from Borg Warner. But all electric motors will have a similar graph. 

    HVH250-motor-efficiency-and-maximum-torque-e1544480912529.png

    The rest of the article is here:

    https://x-engineer.org/automotive-engineering/vehicle/electric-vehicles/ev-design-electric-motors/


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    Re: Tesla

    And yet the Porsche is no where near as efficient. Wonder why. Also love how everything is compared to the 10 year old model S. 
    perhaps there is a reason Tesla decided to not use gears. What all your graphs fail to show is that the gear in the Porsche does nothing to help range or speed.  Back to the drawing board. I predict one of the first things the gen 2 Porsche will drop is the gearbox.  We can do his all day.  Maybe next explain how gears might help a boat?   Cheers buddy. 


    Re: Tesla

    Leawood911:

    And yet the Porsche is no where near as efficient. Wonder why. Also love how everything is compared to the 10 year old model S. 
    perhaps there is a reason Tesla decided to not use gears. What all your graphs fail to show is that the gear in the Porsche does nothing to help range or speed.  Back to the drawing board. I predict one of the first things the gen 2 Porsche will drop is the gearbox.  We can do his all day.  Maybe next explain how gears might help a boat?   Cheers buddy. 

    You better tell ZF that they don’t know what they are doing with marine transmissions.  https://www.zf.com/products/media/industrial/marine/brochures_1/ZF_Product_Overview_2018.pdf


    Re: Tesla

    Any vehicle traveling at 200 kph vs 100 kph will achieve about 33 to 50 % of the original range. ICE or BEV will be the same.

    Not a problem that many in the US will encounter; but on the autobahn, it could make the BEV less appealing since it increases the probability that fueling at home will not be sufficient for the day.


    Re: Tesla

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3aIcuH_XWLM

    A German engineer took his Tesla on the autobahn to test energy consumption at 200 kph.

    From what I gathered he usually gets around 96 mpg equivalent; but at that speed, it was around 40. Therefore the Tesla's range would be well under half the normal range if sustaining travel at that speed.


    Re: Tesla

    Gladstone:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3aIcuH_XWLM

    A German engineer took his Tesla on the autobahn to test energy consumption at 200 kph.

    From what I gathered he usually gets around 96 mpg equivalent; but at that speed, it was around 40. Therefore the Tesla's range would be well under half the normal range if sustaining travel at that speed.

    The physics of drag are an amazing thing aren't they?!?

    At top speed, the chiron goes through its 100 litre gas tank in 9 minutes. 


    --

    Past-President, Porsche Club of America - Upper Canada Region


    Re: Tesla

    Leawood911:

    And yet the Porsche is no where near as efficient. Wonder why. Also love how everything is compared to the 10 year old model S. 
    perhaps there is a reason Tesla decided to not use gears. What all your graphs fail to show is that the gear in the Porsche does nothing to help range or speed.  Back to the drawing board. I predict one of the first things the gen 2 Porsche will drop is the gearbox.  We can do his all day.  Maybe next explain how gears might help a boat?   Cheers buddy. 

     

    Yes there is, money. Cost.

    Tesla's primary market is the USA, where high speed isn't a factor, direct drive from the electric motor is good enough, design trade offs. 

    Taycan is a world car, so higher speed performance is needed in Europe, hence the 2-speed transmission. 

    Trade offs happen all the time in car design. Look at the 918. Dr Walliser famously skipped a 2-speed gearbox for the front axle on the 918, forgoing the extra performance that could have gained above 265km/hr for some weight savings. 

    They did it the other way for the Taycan, adding some weight to the Taycan but it let the Taycan maintains superior performance all the way to the capped top speed. 

    And yes, we can do this all day all week. 

     


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