Crown

Board: Porsche - 911 - 997 - Turbo Language: English Region: Worldwide Share/Save/Bookmark Close

Forum - Thread


    Protomotive 997 TT

    I know it was probably too soon to do it but I did. After a lot of research I sent my ecu to Todd at protomotive after we had several phone conversations. Bascially he said he was able to improve the hp figure under the curve significantly without increasing peak boost.
    The ecu was back today and I took the car for a drive. for those who are interested here are some boost numbers in regular vs sport mode after the software change.
    regular mode: 1 bar boost sustained from 2000 to redline now at 7300
    sport mode: 1.2 bar sustained from 2000 to 7300.
    The car feels much quicker than before especially above 2-3krpm. driving around town there was no difference.
    throttle response in regular mode is also improved and almost as sharp as sport mode.
    All this on 91 california octane....
    will keep you updated with any reliability issues as time goes by.
    Feel free to ask/crticize I know it is crazy but I will feel better if I am ever next to a certain fast car with a lot of plastic inside

    Re: Protomotive 997 TT

    U lucky guy, very few people have done ecu tuning and i havnt read much reviews about the tunes. what were your boost levels along the rpm range before the mod??
    is there any increase in peak hp or is it just an increase in the rpm range??
    good luck and happy boosting

    Re: Protomotive 997 TT

    Quote:
    aah986 said:

    Feel free to ask/crticize I know it is crazy but I will feel better if I am ever next to a certain fast car with a lot of plastic inside



    HAHAHAHAH

    Re: Protomotive 997 TT

    boost levels at full throttle before the tune were:
    regular mode: 15 psi all the way to 6600 redline
    sport mode: 18 psi between 2000 and 4000 and then back to 15 psi until redline.
    My car is not dynoed yet but the tuner has dynoed other cars with this program and got 480 whp in regular mode and just over 500 with sport mode, using a 4wd dyno and 94 octane. I am assuming my car is making less on 91 octane.

    Re: Protomotive 997 TT

    Quote:
    aah986 said:
    Feel free to ask/crticize I know it is crazy but I will feel better if I am ever next to a certain fast car with a lot of plastic inside



    You'll also love the bill Porsche will present to you if you have a damaged engine and warranty doesn't cover it.
    We have "warned" people to wait with ECU mods a couple of times but apparently the desire of more power makes people blind. No matter what your "tuning pal" told you: nobody was able to test ECU mods yet in a way which could make them somehow "reliable". The time since the Turbo was introduced was too short, I even know Tuners who put their hands on the first Turbos after the factory re-opened end of August. It takes at least half a year or so to fully test an ECU mod and to make sure it works fine.
    All the stuff available right now is half-bread, not fully tested and in many countries certainly not street-legal.

    BTW: did I mention that a new 997 Turbo engine is in the 50000 USD range? Since Porsche doesn't approve repairs yet, this means that if the engine breaks down, you need a new one. Very cheap fun.

    Re: Protomotive 997 TT

    how do we now for certain when a tuner ecu mod is safe? id love to wait until all r&d is really finished but how will i know that that has really happened?

    ps: 5OOwhp !!!!!!!!!!!!!! that certain plastic cars roof is gonna fly off just as fast as youd overtake him

    Re: Protomotive 997 TT

    Those power gains seem quite reasonable considering the extra boost holding to redline. Most detonation from excessive boost will occur at peak cylinder pressure which is at the torque peak and not the HP peak anyway - i.e. the peak cylinder pressures experienced by a stock ecu car will be no less.

    The main concern will be whether EGT exceeds safe levels at sustained high rpms. I would suggest adding a free-flow exhaust (cat delete + cat back or straight pipes) to improve exhaust flow and thus lower exhaust temps. This will take some of the heat out of the turbines.

    I would also very seriously recommend you get a dyno done with a proper wideband to ensure that the AFR is at a safe level and also possibly add an EGT gauge to the car. Both are simple and inexpensive propositions.Also, consider finding a source for higher octane fuel than 91. I wouldn't boost 18# on 91 oct without water injection. As RC said, the expense of an anomalous occurence could be very costly.

    Well, I wish him the best of luck

    but if his engine explodes while racing a certain car with alot of plastic in it - we'll never hear the end of it!!

    Re: Protomotive 997 TT

    Thanks RC, I have seen and read all your posts from before I got the car and I understand your concerns about safety. I am not going to track the car or do any autobahn driving here in san diego. I am going to take it easy for the next few months to test reliability. The tuner I used is well known by 996tt and gt2 owners in this country and he had already done a bunch of 997 tts since they came out.
    I will let you all know when the engine blows and who pays for it

    Re: Protomotive 997 TT

    eclou, thanks for the advise. I am still waiting for a europipe exhaust when it is available, the ones on the market now didn't sound good to me. As far as the EGT gauge how and where do I get it? is this something one can do or is it a shop deal.
    I will certainly dyno the car in a few weeks after the car adapts to the new maps and will post results. As far as high octane I already know a source and use it sometimes in my modified boxster, the tt had 91 at the time of the drive. I am going to mix some 109 later today.

    Re: Protomotive 997 TT

    Quote:
    eclou said:
    Those power gains seem quite reasonable considering the extra boost holding to redline. Most detonation from excessive boost will occur at peak cylinder pressure which is at the torque peak and not the HP peak anyway - i.e. the peak cylinder pressures experienced by a stock ecu car will be no less.

    The main concern will be whether EGT exceeds safe levels at sustained high rpms. I would suggest adding a free-flow exhaust (cat delete + cat back or straight pipes) to improve exhaust flow and thus lower exhaust temps. This will take some of the heat out of the turbines.

    I would also very seriously recommend you get a dyno done with a proper wideband to ensure that the AFR is at a safe level and also possibly add an EGT gauge to the car. Both are simple and inexpensive propositions.Also, consider finding a source for higher octane fuel than 91. I wouldn't boost 18# on 91 oct without water injection. As RC said, the expense of an anomalous occurence could be very costly.



    Eclou,
    What you say makes sense. However peak torque should be around 750NM in a ecu modded car, from 680NM so there should a small increase in peak cylinder pressure but I believe a 10% or so increase should not be a problem especially with high flow cats etc.
    One question, what does AFR and EGT stand for?
    Lastly RC the 997tt engine is almost identical to the 996tt engine with the only main difference being the VTG chargers.So as far as simple mods go then serious tuners have plenty of data on thermal stresses etc on the internal parts of the engine. Hence its only the turbo\exhaust part that creates an added complexity with cheap mods from inexperienced tuners. I suspect that it is not nuclear science to find ways to improve thermal relief for a 10 or 15% increase in boost and power. A good exhaust will do that..

    Re: Protomotive 997 TT

    AFR = Air/Fuel ratio. On a turbo car I would make sure no part of the curve approaches 13:1 - needs to be 12:1 at tq peak and tailing off to 11:1 or less at redline. Richer = safer to some degree. Lean = disaster.

    EGT = exhaust gas temperature. 1600F is the point of failure for burning valves or pistons which have no thermal protection such as coatings or ceramics. Even then, most people don't want to approach 1600F for any sustained time.

    Any speed shop should be able to set you up with a good EGT from Autometer for about $100. Figure about another $100-200 to weld in a bung and route the wiring into the cabin to a gauge.

    Re: Protomotive 997 TT

    eclou, thanks for the info. I was able to get some numbers from the tuner. he says AFR of 14 at 2000rpm tapering by 3000 rpm down to low 12 by redline. Since you seem to know your stuff, what is your input here and do you think the numbers you gave before apply to 996tt and 997tt?
    how would you remedy a high AFR, is octane rate important here or is it just a matter of air vs fuel? thanks in advance. by the way, the car does not smell lean so far.

    Re: Protomotive 997 TT

    Good for you aah986...I myself am looking for power gains...good job we get 98 + fuel in Uk and Sweden..It will not be long before I go some German route !!

    Re: Protomotive 997 TT

    Do you have stage 3 already on the sl65 renntech

    Re: Protomotive 997 TT

    Quote:
    RC said:
    Quote:
    aah986 said:
    Feel free to ask/crticize I know it is crazy but I will feel better if I am ever next to a certain fast car with a lot of plastic inside



    You'll also love the bill Porsche will present to you if you have a damaged engine and warranty doesn't cover it.
    We have "warned" people to wait with ECU mods a couple of times but apparently the desire of more power makes people blind. No matter what your "tuning pal" told you: nobody was able to test ECU mods yet in a way which could make them somehow "reliable". The time since the Turbo was introduced was too short, I even know Tuners who put their hands on the first Turbos after the factory re-opened end of August. It takes at least half a year or so to fully test an ECU mod and to make sure it works fine.
    All the stuff available right now is half-bread, not fully tested and in many countries certainly not street-legal.

    BTW: did I mention that a new 997 Turbo engine is in the 50000 USD range? Since Porsche doesn't approve repairs yet, this means that if the engine breaks down, you need a new one. Very cheap fun.



    Yes RC, you are absolutly correct! people should not start moding their car so early after the release date of the TT. However, I personaly blaime Porsche with the current trend of moding 997 TT's (ie large numbers & so early from its release date). Remember, the TT (better known as the EX-KING) was already OBSOLETE from a power point of view when it was released! especialy when you consider that all its competitors, who are already few years old, where closing on the 520HP range if not exceeded it. So imagine what will happen to the EX-KING when in a couple of years its competitor will be updated/re-newd with even more power.

    What I am worried about is that the 997TT will loose the respect that it so deservedly built through the different turbo generations and turn into a joke . For god sakes, even Chevy is doing better than Porsche when it comes to performance. My respects to Chevy and shame on you Porsche .

    Rants over, sorry about my long post but I had to vent my frustration on Porsche transformation from an enthusist car company into a money making company .

    Re: Protomotive 997 TT

    Quote:
    aah986 said:
    eclou, thanks for the info. I was able to get some numbers from the tuner. he says AFR of 14 at 2000rpm tapering by 3000 rpm down to low 12 by redline. Since you seem to know your stuff, what is your input here and do you think the numbers you gave before apply to 996tt and 997tt?
    how would you remedy a high AFR, is octane rate important here or is it just a matter of air vs fuel? thanks in advance. by the way, the car does not smell lean so far.



    I would ask for an actual plot of the AFR from the tuner. I would be very concerned if he could not provide one. Low 12:1 at redline is not safe enough on this kind of car. Porsche and AMG forced induction motors routinely dip into the low 11:1 or even into the 10:1 ratio at redline as a factory calibration. This AFR advice holds true almost universally on forced induction motors.

    To adjust the AFR richer, you have 3 choices:

    1: tuner does it through ecu programming controlling the fuel injector pulse cycles(best and most accurate method)
    2: use an adjustable fuel pressure regulator (not as safe as adjustable FPR's tend to leak or fail)
    3) use larger fuel injectors (can lead to poor idle and throttle response)
    4) add water/methanol injection (cools induction charge through latent heat of evaporation, water vapor displaces air in the combustion chamber leading to a richer, cooler mixture)

    At low 12:1 ratio (12.5:1 is considered living on the edge) I would make sure that you are running closer to 95/96 octane to be safe. Keep in mind that octane boosters that you purchase only raise octane 0.2-0.5 points, not 2 to 5 points! They are not really sufficient. Also, I would check your spark plug electrodes sometime in the next 500 miles or so to look for any signs of detonation.

    Re: Protomotive 997 TT

    Thanks eclou, I never use octane boosters, just added some 100 octane unleaded and will keep the car around 94-95 US octane for a while and see what happens. The car is running fine so far.

    Re: Protomotive 997 TT

    Quote:
    eclou said:
    Quote:
    aah986 said:
    eclou, thanks for the info. I was able to get some numbers from the tuner. he says AFR of 14 at 2000rpm tapering by 3000 rpm down to low 12 by redline. Since you seem to know your stuff, what is your input here and do you think the numbers you gave before apply to 996tt and 997tt?
    how would you remedy a high AFR, is octane rate important here or is it just a matter of air vs fuel? thanks in advance. by the way, the car does not smell lean so far.



    I would ask for an actual plot of the AFR from the tuner. I would be very concerned if he could not provide one. Low 12:1 at redline is not safe enough on this kind of car. Porsche and AMG forced induction motors routinely dip into the low 11:1 or even into the 10:1 ratio at redline as a factory calibration. This AFR advice holds true almost universally on forced induction motors.

    To adjust the AFR richer, you have 3 choices:

    1: tuner does it through ecu programming controlling the fuel injector pulse cycles(best and most accurate method)
    2: use an adjustable fuel pressure regulator (not as safe as adjustable FPR's tend to leak or fail)
    3) use larger fuel injectors (can lead to poor idle and throttle response)
    4) add water/methanol injection (cools induction charge through latent heat of evaporation, water vapor displaces air in the combustion chamber leading to a richer, cooler mixture)

    At low 12:1 ratio (12.5:1 is considered living on the edge) I would make sure that you are running closer to 95/96 octane to be safe. Keep in mind that octane boosters that you purchase only raise octane 0.2-0.5 points, not 2 to 5 points! They are not really sufficient. Also, I would check your spark plug electrodes sometime in the next 500 miles or so to look for any signs of detonation.



    Isn't the perfect stoichiometric ratio 14.7 (higher lean, lower rich) for full burn? I know you definatly want to be on the rich side for a turbo engine to keep everything cool, but running at sub 10 is pretty darn rich! Remember, the leaner that hotter, but also the leaner the more power produced!

    I would second getting a stoichiometric air/fuel gauge within easy sight and definalty run better fuel than 91, but running at the ratio it's supposedly running now along with a 100 cell cat (or none at all) and a free flowing exhaust should be ample buffer...

    Re: Protomotive 997 TT

    Stoichiometric or lambda is optimal for limiting emissions, not for generation of power. Running anywhere close to 14.7 off idle will result in a grenade going off in the engine bay. Sub 10 is extremely rich, but that is what my E55 runs from the factory at redline. Interestingly enough aftermarket programmers for GM have dabbled with hyperlean cruise modes, where the engine is running anywhere from 17:1 to 20:1 ratios at cruising conditions, bringing impossibly good fuel consumption on 2-3 ton trucks. The emissions though goes sky high in hyperlean conditions.

    Re: Protomotive 997 TT

    Good stuff Eclou!

    Re: Protomotive 997 TT

    Quote:
    eclou said:
    Those power gains seem quite reasonable considering the extra boost holding to redline. Most detonation from excessive boost will occur at peak cylinder pressure which is at the torque peak and not the HP peak anyway - i.e. the peak cylinder pressures experienced by a stock ecu car will be no less.

    The main concern will be whether EGT exceeds safe levels at sustained high rpms. I would suggest adding a free-flow exhaust (cat delete + cat back or straight pipes) to improve exhaust flow and thus lower exhaust temps. This will take some of the heat out of the turbines.

    I would also very seriously recommend you get a dyno done with a proper wideband to ensure that the AFR is at a safe level and also possibly add an EGT gauge to the car. Both are simple and inexpensive propositions.Also, consider finding a source for higher octane fuel than 91. I wouldn't boost 18# on 91 oct without water injection. As RC said, the expense of an anomalous occurence could be very costly.



    According to the Service Information Technik document : The exhaust temperature is evaluated for each bank in the DME control unit , and is restricted to a maximum temperature of 980* C by enrichment or boost pressure adjustment .
    Sounds fine to me !

     
    Edit

    Forum

    Board Subject Last post Rating Views Replies
    Porsche Sticky SUN'S LAST RUN TO WILSON, WY - 991 C2S CAB LIFE, END OF AN ERA (Part I) Thread Closed 9/24/20 12:47 AM
    watt
    582985 2849
    Porsche Sticky The moment I've been waiting for... 12/30/20 9:03 AM
    rhino
     
     
     
     
     
    358518 1279
    Porsche Sticky OFFICIAL: New Porsche 911 Turbo S (2020) 4/10/21 2:32 PM
    Joost
    86662 1085
    Porsche Sticky Welcome to Rennteam: Cars and Coffee... (photos) 5/8/21 9:11 AM
    Boxster Coupe GTS
    44860 342
    Porsche Sticky ROAD TEST: New 992 Carrera 4S 3/3/21 10:57 PM
    Wonderbar
    35446 336
    Porsche Sticky Porsche Taycan Turbo S - Short Review 10/19/20 6:12 PM
    Leawood911
    33252 380
    Porsche Sticky SUN'S LAST RUN TO WILSON, WY - 991 C2S CAB LIFE, END OF AN ERA (Part II) 5/6/21 4:40 AM
    4trac
    16569 342
    Porsche Sticky Porsche extends the Taycan model range (Taycan 2WD) 2/1/21 12:42 PM
    Leawood911
    4472 29
    Porsche OFFICIAL: New 991.2 GT3 (2017) 7/27/20 2:13 AM
    DJM48
    564398 5257
    Porsche Cayman GT4 5/4/21 4:46 PM
    Topspeed
    404611 3586
    McLaren McLaren on a winning streak 4/25/21 4:04 PM
    Topspeed
    357897 3916
    Porsche OFFICIAL: 911 GT2 RS (2017) 4/29/21 7:24 AM
    GnilM
    354689 3494
    Porsche OFFICIAL: 991.2 GT3 RS (2018) 4/28/21 12:26 PM
    W8MM
    315885 3252
    Porsche OFFICIAL: 911 R (2016) 12/8/20 7:51 PM
    DJM48
    310103 2646
    Porsche OFFICIAL: The new Porsche 992 – a design icon and high-tech sports car 2/28/21 8:05 PM
    Topspeed
    217620 1542
    Porsche Tesla Roadster 9/23/20 8:22 PM
    bluelines
    189275 4279
    Porsche OFFICIAL: New Panamera (2016) 2/11/21 9:22 AM
    Itsme
    161224 1379
    Others Alfa Romeo 4C 9/23/20 10:22 AM
    RCA
    138276 792
    Porsche 992 GT3 5/7/21 4:00 AM
    CGX car nut
    119200 2267
    Lambo Lamborghini Huracan and variants 4/9/21 4:32 PM
    Topspeed
    106206 1225
    McLaren F1 2/25/21 11:33 AM
    RCA
    77285 207
    Porsche Welcome to the new Taycan Forum! 4/29/21 3:48 PM
    CGX car nut
    70981 1163
    AMG AMG GT R 11/19/20 11:47 PM
    Topspeed
    65001 819
    Lambo Aventador and SV 4/20/21 3:21 PM
    CGX car nut
    64096 683
    Porsche 991 Speedster 9/3/20 4:29 PM
    Topspeed
    57131 878
    Porsche Nürburgring - Tesla vs. Taycan 11/23/20 6:10 PM
    Topspeed
    43484 596
    Others Bugatti Chiron 4/12/21 3:42 PM
    RCA
    36700 476
    Porsche Olive 991.2 GT3 Clubsport 1/1/21 7:58 PM
    throt
    34064 615
    Ferrari Ferrari 812 Superfast 5/7/21 5:56 AM
    GnilM
    30467 462
    BMW M BMW M2 Rumors 3/21/21 5:01 PM
    Topspeed
    28827 385
    273 items found, displaying 1 to 30.