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    Where are all the Porsches in Berlin?

    Just came back from a 12 days Baltic cruise, visited several nice European countries.Smiley

    Spent one day of excursion in Berlin and I intentionally looked at the cars on the roads and parking lots.  To my surprise (and disappointment), I was only able to spot 4 Porsches.  I was expecting to see way more Porsches in Germany but I guess I was wrong.

    Is economy really this bad? or do most German only use their Porsches as weekend or track cars?

    RC and others who live in Germany, what's your thoughts?


    --
     

    Tim

    2010 997.2 GT3RS;  2008 Cayenne Turbo;  2006 911 Club Coupe #13;  2011 Panamera 4


    Re: Where are all the Porsches in Berlin?

    Targa Tim:

    Just came back from a 12 days Baltic cruise, visited several nice European countries.Smiley

    Spent one day of excursion in Berlin and I intentionally looked at the cars on the roads and parking lots.  To my surprise (and disappointment), I was only able to spot 4 Porsches.  I was expecting to see way more Porsches in Germany but I guess I was wrong.

    Is economy really this bad? or do most German only use their Porsches as weekend or track cars?

    RC and others who live in Germany, what's your thoughts?

     

     

    Showing off a Porsche (or any other expensive car) in Berlin is not a sign of good taste - this young and trendy city is very understated Smiley


    Re: Where are all the Porsches in Berlin?

     Good God! Has it really come to this?!


    Re: Where are all the Porsches in Berlin?

    I think this plays a part as well...

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/aug/26/berlin-torched-cars-elections


    Re: Where are all the Porsches in Berlin?

    There is not the same level of wealth in Berlin as there is in other major cities in Germany.

    20% of the population of Berlin is on state assistance, compared to 5% in Munich for example.

    I'm not normally a Guardian reader, I prefer the Telegraph, but this sis a good story on Berlin's economy.

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/jan/22/berlin-new-economy


    Re: Where are all the Porsches in Berlin?

    Go to Munich, Hamburg or Frankfurt and you can't stop counting the super cars. Of course - never at the level of London, but you will find a lot. Berlin has basically not much industry. Out of historical reasons the economy is week, no big company invested old days to an island surrounded by the enemy. After the wall opening the politicians came and with them the TV stations. That's it! Lots of wanna be but still even more unemployed or people on assistance. Berlin is cool if you are a student, nice bars and easy living. For urban professionals it is the wrong place!

    Re: Where are all the Porsches in Berlin?

    Lars997:
    Go to Munich, Hamburg or Frankfurt and you can't stop counting the super cars. Of course - never at the level of London, but you will find a lot. Berlin has basically not much industry. Out of historical reasons the economy is week, no big company invested old days to an island surrounded by the enemy. After the wall opening the politicians came and with them the TV stations. That's it! Lots of wanna be but still even more unemployed or people on assistance. Berlin is cool if you are a student, nice bars and easy living. For urban professionals it is the wrong place!


    Entirely agree. There are ways to make money in Berlin but most people I know are working at places or for companies outside of Berlin most of the time. The only place you can fully explore Berlin´s "finest" automobiles might be at Unter den Linden and Kurfürstendamm, both inside and outside the shops.


    Re: Where are all the Porsches in Berlin?

    Spyderidol:

     Good God! Has it really come to this?!

     Why? Personally, I feel that this is a positive thing. I honestly don't like it when people show off their cars in the city Smiley These cars are built for passionate driving and not for parking exercises in front of a street cafe...


    Re: Where are all the Porsches in Berlin?

    Lars997:
    Go to Munich, Hamburg or Frankfurt and you can't stop counting the super cars. Of course - never at the level of London, but you will find a lot. Berlin has basically not much industry. Out of historical reasons the economy is week, no big company invested old days to an island surrounded by the enemy. After the wall opening the politicians came and with them the TV stations. That's it! Lots of wanna be but still even more unemployed or people on assistance. Berlin is cool if you are a student, nice bars and easy living. For urban professionals it is the wrong place!

     

    Also, those who have lots of money in Berlin (and there is a rapidly grwoing number of rich people buying property in Berlin) are more interested in the arts and other high-level enjoyments.

    P.S.: Personally I am convinced that Berlin is the European city with the best outlook for the next 20-30 years. The quality of living there is very high. Berlin is a very complex and very interesting place. Also, thousands of young (national and international) people are moving there (as the city is comparatively cheap still). Companies (internet, media, creative industries) will follow these young and creative people.

    IMO, Munich will be much weaker in 30 years (as many inhabitants are old and will pass away). Berlin will be much, much stronger. If you have the choice, Berlin is the much better place to buy into Smiley


    Re: Where are all the Porsches in Berlin?

    This could also be related to something which was the subject of a recent report in The Economist - under the heading "Ich bin ein car-burner". According to the report, there has been a "rash of car-burnings" in Berlin, peaking at 401 in 2009. So far in 2011, 368 cars have been set alight and the burnings have become a nightly occurrence. I guess this is the last environment in which one wants to be seen driving a luxury vehicle!

    Re: Where are all the Porsches in Berlin?

    MKSGR:

    IMO, Munich will be much weaker in 30 years (as many inhabitants are old and will pass away). Berlin will be much, much stronger. If you have the choice, Berlin is the much better place to buy into Smiley

     Don't know in which part of Germany y're live but y're partly complete wrong with that.

    I think y're right with Berlin. That will grow to a hot spot in the next 20-30 years. In the department of fashion, art, creatives etc. And yes, its currently much cheaper than Munich comparatively. Therefore a good location for industry to place.

    BUT:
    The real money is still living in Munich and in greater Munich.
    Look at the economy, look at the buying power index, the unemployment figures..etc.
    Bavaria is very strong in science, technology, internet, machine building, and not to mention the car industry (Audi, BMW). Ok, thats for now but look at the growth of population figures in 20 years: Berlin will have a significant loss and munich, greater munich and Bavaria are the winner in this department fare away from all the other regions in Germany. 
    In a recent survey it was found that 70% (!) of all the Germans would like to live in Munich.

    @ Targa Tim
    If you would have visited Munich you would have got the impression that there would be a human right for the possession of a PorscheSmiley
    And the best thing is that they are not burning....


    --
    Kind regards, Conny 

    Porsche 997.2 Turbo S  *  BMW X5 M
     

    Re: Where are all the Porsches in Berlin?

    BUT:
    The real money is still living in Munich and in greater Munich.
    Look at the economy, look at the buying power index, the unemployment figures..etc.
    Bavaria is very strong in science, technology, internet, machine building, and not to mention the car industry (Audi, BMW). Ok, thats for now but look at the growth of population figures in 20 years: Berlin will have a significant loss and munich, greater munich and Bavaria are the winner in this department fare away from all the other regions in Germany. 
    In a recent survey it was found that 70% (!) of all the Germans would like to live in Munich.

     

     You are correct as far is the status quo is concerned... But just go 35 years back: Munich was the place you went to "to drink a beer but that was it" (that's what a friend told me who knows the time back from own experience).

    My lesson from this: One usually gives the status quo too much weight - relative attractiveness of cities varies a lot (!) over decades. Just think of New York in the 1970s and compare it to today. Or compare Munich in the 70s to today. The key factors in the long run seem to be quality of living and the price level of real estate compared to what well-qualified and talented employees (i.e. the people highly sought after by successful companies) can can afford. In the long run successful companies will follow their potential employees. And these potential employees will be found at the most attractive spots to live Smiley

    Munich is a very risky real estate market if you ask me. Prices are still very high as many old people move to the city from the surroundings to have a nice time. The problem is that these people will no longer be there in about 20-30 years time (for medical reasons...). At the same time Munich is a small (and a bit boring city) and also too expensive for younger people to live there.

    If I had real estate in Munich I would sell now or in the next years. The trend is likely to work against Munich in the long run. In a certain way, Munich seems to be a relict of the German after-war period...


    Re: Where are all the Porsches in Berlin?

    Guys, thanks for the insight.

    Next time I visit Germany, I will like to visit the Porsche museum.

    As to spotting Porsches and exotic cars, we have more than enough here in Vancouver driven by young kids.


    --

    Tim

    2010 997.2 GT3RS;  2008 Cayenne Turbo;  2006 911 Club Coupe #13;  2011 Panamera 4


    Re: Where are all the Porsches in Berlin?

    MKSGR:
    Spyderidol:

     Good God! Has it really come to this?!

     Why? Personally, I feel that this is a positive thing. I honestly don't like it when people show off their cars in the city Smiley These cars are built for passionate driving and not for parking exercises in front of a street cafe...

     I understand your point, but I value far more the freedom allowing anyone to do what they want with their money . It's their business, not mine.


    Re: Where are all the Porsches in Berlin?

    Spyderidol:
    MKSGR:
    Spyderidol:

     Good God! Has it really come to this?!

     Why? Personally, I feel that this is a positive thing. I honestly don't like it when people show off their cars in the city Smiley These cars are built for passionate driving and not for parking exercises in front of a street cafe...

     I understand your point, but I value far more the freedom allowing anyone to do what they want with their money . It's their business, not mine.


    Agreed.

    MKSGR, are you saying that you can't even drive your Porsche to dinner in Berlin?


    --

    2005 997S Blk/Blk


    Re: Where are all the Porsches in Berlin?

    SoCal Alan:
    Spyderidol:
    MKSGR:
    Spyderidol:

     Good God! Has it really come to this?!

     Why? Personally, I feel that this is a positive thing. I honestly don't like it when people show off their cars in the city Smiley These cars are built for passionate driving and not for parking exercises in front of a street cafe...

     I understand your point, but I value far more the freedom allowing anyone to do what they want with their money . It's their business, not mine.


    Agreed.

    MKSGR, are you saying that you can't even drive your Porsche to dinner in Berlin?

     No, of course you could. It just doesn't "feel" as trendy as it would be in Munich, Stuttgart or Frankfurt. Maybe you can also compare it a bit with New York City. In New York it also looks a bit strange if people drive around in sportscars etc. There are other more appropriate ways to express style in NYC Smiley


    Re: Where are all the Porsches in Berlin?

    The car burning thing is big big issue here in Germany and no one seems to really discuss it. The Police has basically no leads to what organization, idiots are behind this yet hundreds of cars have been burning on a nightly scale....

    I love Berlin for it's very fresh student populous, it's got all the pubs and bars you can imagine. It isn't just cheap either, it's got a very developed wealthy class too. One of the main shopping streets are right up there with most expensive anywhere in Germany.

    That being said, we all know Bayern (Munich) still pays for most of it all and will probably continue to do so for quite a while..

    I have yet to revisit both cities but I am equally excited for what both have to show!


    --

    indeed shifting is ancient technology - so is a fuel burning engine..  I happen to like both :) 


    Re: Where are all the Porsches in Berlin?

    MKSGR:
     You are correct as far is the status quo is concerned... But just go 35 years back: Munich was the place you went to "to drink a beer but that was it" (that's what a friend told me who knows the time back from own experience).

    My lesson from this: One usually gives the status quo too much weight - relative attractiveness of cities varies a lot (!) over decades. Just think of New York in the 1970s and compare it to today. Or compare Munich in the 70s to today. The key factors in the long run seem to be quality of living and the price level of real estate compared to what well-qualified and talented employees (i.e. the people highly sought after by successful companies) can can afford. In the long run successful companies will follow their potential employees. And these potential employees will be found at the most attractive spots to live Smiley

     

    Munich is a very risky real estate market if you ask me. Prices are still very high as many old people move to the city from the surroundings to have a nice time. The problem is that these people will no longer be there in about 20-30 years time (for medical reasons...). At the same time Munich is a small (and a bit boring city) and also too expensive for younger people to live there.

    If I had real estate in Munich I would sell now or in the next years. The trend is likely to work against Munich in the long run. In a certain way, Munich seems to be a relict of the German after-war period...

     

    Hmm, I feel a little bit confused.Smiley
    Firstly: I've lived longer than 30 years in Munich and I'm not dependent on the accounts of third parties. 35 years ago (1976), Munich was in the best economic and cultural condition. As a consequence of Olympic Games in 1972, Munich get settled with enormous investment and was called as “Germany's hidden capital.” Do you know what happened with Berlin at this time?
    It was almost meaningless! Smiley

    On the other hand:
    Yes, the status quo can and will change. But keep in mind that I mentioned before the statistics of future population trends. With no doubt there was demonstrated that the move to Munich, respectively, Bavaria is strongly continuing while other states (Bundesländer) will lose.

    And: Successful companies don’t follow their employees, but its the other way round. Jobs are created where the political and economic conditions are suitable for companies and companies are creating the jobs or have I missed something? Related to the political conditions I’m much more in worry about Berlin than Munich.

    The same game with the Munich real estate market:
    Its of course very high prices is more an indicator of the attractiveness of this city and even not the other way round. Hope you understand my confusion...Smiley

    We may like to talk about whether Germany will lose as a whole in comparison to emerging third countries. But certainly Munich is not the 2nd winner in comparison to Berlin neither in the status quo nor in the future view.
    As a property developer I am working very closely with figures and facts and less on general views. My future investments are planned to place completely in Bavaria as a whole. Believe me that I know very well what to do with my hard earned money.Smiley
     


    --
     

    Kind regards, Conny 

    Porsche 997.2 Turbo S  *  BMW X5 M
     

    Re: Where are all the Porsches in Berlin?

    Conny997:
    MKSGR:
     You are correct as far is the status quo is concerned... But just go 35 years back: Munich was the place you went to "to drink a beer but that was it" (that's what a friend told me who knows the time back from own experience).

    My lesson from this: One usually gives the status quo too much weight - relative attractiveness of cities varies a lot (!) over decades. Just think of New York in the 1970s and compare it to today. Or compare Munich in the 70s to today. The key factors in the long run seem to be quality of living and the price level of real estate compared to what well-qualified and talented employees (i.e. the people highly sought after by successful companies) can can afford. In the long run successful companies will follow their potential employees. And these potential employees will be found at the most attractive spots to live Smiley

     

    Munich is a very risky real estate market if you ask me. Prices are still very high as many old people move to the city from the surroundings to have a nice time. The problem is that these people will no longer be there in about 20-30 years time (for medical reasons...). At the same time Munich is a small (and a bit boring city) and also too expensive for younger people to live there.

    If I had real estate in Munich I would sell now or in the next years. The trend is likely to work against Munich in the long run. In a certain way, Munich seems to be a relict of the German after-war period...

     

    Hmm, I feel a little bit confused.Smiley
    Firstly: I've lived longer than 30 years in Munich and I'm not dependent on the accounts of third parties. 35 years ago (1976), Munich was in the best economic and cultural condition. As a consequence of Olympic Games in 1972, Munich get settled with enormous investment and was called as “Germany's hidden capital.” Do you know what happened with Berlin at this time?
    It was almost meaningless! Smiley

    On the other hand:
    Yes, the status quo can and will change. But keep in mind that I mentioned before the statistics of future population trends. With no doubt there was demonstrated that the move to Munich, respectively, Bavaria is strongly continuing while other states (Bundesländer) will lose.

    And: Successful companies don’t follow their employees, but its the other way round. Jobs are created where the political and economic conditions are suitable for companies and companies are creating the jobs or have I missed something? Related to the political conditions I’m much more in worry about Berlin than Munich.

    The same game with the Munich real estate market:
    Its of course very high prices is more an indicator of the attractiveness of this city and even not the other way round. Hope you understand my confusion...Smiley

    We may like to talk about whether Germany will lose as a whole in comparison to emerging third countries. But certainly Munich is not the 2nd winner in comparison to Berlin neither in the status quo nor in the future view.
    As a property developer I am working very closely with figures and facts and less on general views. My future investments are planned to place completely in Bavaria as a whole. Believe me that I know very well what to do with my hard earned money.Smiley
     

     

     

     My dear friend - you are a property developer in Munich Smiley No doubt you are a bit biased Smiley

    Maybe you can share my forecast in 20-30 years after you retired and moved to Berlin as Munich got too boring for you in the meantime (maybe you have even established a new property development business in Berlin by then Smiley).

    BTW, I live in the area of Germany where the average income is even higher than in Munich and its surroundings (like Starnberg etc). Although I have to admit that we just bought an appartment in Berlin. I never would have considered this 3-5 years ago. But today, believe me, my gut and every other sense I have tells me that this is the very best you can do Smiley Berlin is similar to NYC in the 70s. Of course, nothing can ever match NYC - but Berlin comes closer than any other European city I know.

    P.S.: I know a lot of professional real estate investors (we have a lot of them in Frankfurt, including all those with a very long family tradition in real estate) who have switched their focus on Berlin. Also many are quite critical as far as the future price level of the Munich real estate market is concerned


    Re: Where are all the Porsches in Berlin?

    MKSGR:

    Berlin is similar to NYC in the 70s. Of course, nothing can ever match NYC - but Berlin comes closer than any other European city I know. [...]

    Also many are quite critical as far as the future price level of the Munich real estate market is concerned


    I agree on the upper paragraph, not only as I met artists from NY that moved to Berlin since the spirit of both cities are comparable.

    Munich´s rents are on such a high level that there won´t be much more room for increase. There is certainly potential in certain segments but I´d be astonished if this covers all districts and price levels. Of course, I am open to Conny´s expertise... Smiley

    Berlin features a facette that Munich does not have, whatever you are looking for it is there. Would I love to have an appartment for intermittent stays? Definitely... Would I prefer Munich as a primariy residence? Definitely...


    Re: Where are all the Porsches in Berlin?

    "155 were being treated as "politically motivated" crimes."

    Political Correctness (PC) that has been ruining Europe has taken hold in the US & is one of the greatest threats to our way of life.

    Real shame.. And I don't blame the ignorant masses, I blame the elitist leaches who preach class war fare.

     

     


    --

    08 PORSCHE Turbo Cabriolet - 06 Ferrari F430 - 04 Durango HEMI - 04 Harley Davidson Screamin Eagle - 93 Harley Davidson Nostalgia


    Re: Where are all the Porsches in Berlin?

    MKSGR:

    Showing off a Porsche (or any other expensive car) in Berlin is not a sign of good taste - this young and trendy city is very understated Smiley

     

    Too bad. Really too bad....Smiley


    --

    08 PORSCHE Turbo Cabriolet - 06 Ferrari F430 - 04 Durango HEMI - 04 Harley Davidson Screamin Eagle - 93 Harley Davidson Nostalgia


    Re: Where are all the Porsches in Berlin?

    SoCal Alan:
    Spyderidol:
    MKSGR:
    Spyderidol:

     Good God! Has it really come to this?!

     Why? Personally, I feel that this is a positive thing. I honestly don't like it when people show off their cars in the city Smiley These cars are built for passionate driving and not for parking exercises in front of a street cafe...

     I understand your point, but I value far more the freedom allowing anyone to do what they want with their money . It's their business, not mine.


    Agreed.

    MKSGR, are you saying that you can't even drive your Porsche to dinner in Berlin?

     

    Weird too that it seems agreeable from RT members who you would think understand the reasons behind the ownership of high end sports cars.... Maybe they're at that "street cafe" because they've been out driving hard, enjoying their car all day and they didn't want to drive home to change cars to satisfy other people's possible feelings about why they're there. ? Maybe they're there because they just came back from a 2 weeks business trip and miss their car, plan to take it for a nice evenings drive after dinner? Maybe it's a guy that has studied then worked hard, saved all his life to own one beautiful dream car; his new Porsche & it's the only car he has and ever plans to have so that's how, the only way he's getting to the city & he's smiling at the thought of being anywhere, doesn't matter where,,, in his dream car? 

    I mean really are people at that point where the existence of someone else "car in the city" means to others, they're their just to "show off"???? Once it's not okay for pulling into/parking in a city, where is not okay next??? But I've often heard this on RT, about how it's become not PC to drive a Porsche in certain places in Europe... Luckily in the US for the most part this isn't the case but I'm afraid this envy/not PC to drive certain cars in places is creeping into the US in places as well...


    --

    08 PORSCHE Turbo Cabriolet - 06 Ferrari F430 - 04 Durango HEMI - 04 Harley Davidson Screamin Eagle - 93 Harley Davidson Nostalgia


    Re: Where are all the Porsches in Berlin?

    STRADALE:
    SoCal Alan:
    Spyderidol:
    MKSGR:
    Spyderidol:

     Good God! Has it really come to this?!

     Why? Personally, I feel that this is a positive thing. I honestly don't like it when people show off their cars in the city Smiley These cars are built for passionate driving and not for parking exercises in front of a street cafe...

     I understand your point, but I value far more the freedom allowing anyone to do what they want with their money . It's their business, not mine.


    Agreed.

    MKSGR, are you saying that you can't even drive your Porsche to dinner in Berlin?

     

    Weird too that it seems agreeable from RT members who you would think understand the reasons behind the ownership of high end sports cars.... Maybe they're at that "street cafe" because they've been out driving hard, enjoying their car all day and they didn't want to drive home to change cars to satisfy other people's possible feelings about why they're there. ? Maybe they're there because they just came back from a 2 weeks business trip and miss their car, plan to take it for a nice evenings drive after dinner? Maybe it's a guy that has studied then worked hard, saved all his life to own one beautiful dream car; his new Porsche & it's the only car he has and ever plans to have so that's how, the only way he's getting to the city & he's smiling at the thought of being anywhere, doesn't matter where,,, in his dream car? 

    I mean really are people at that point where the existence of someone else "car in the city" means to others, they're their just to "show off"???? Once it's not okay for pulling into/parking in a city, where is not okay next??? But I've often heard this on RT, about how it's become not PC to drive a Porsche in certain places in Europe... Luckily in the US for the most part this isn't the case but I'm afraid this envy/not PC to drive certain cars in places is creeping into the US in places as well...


    --

    08 PORSCHE Turbo Cabriolet - 06 Ferrari F430 - 04 Durango HEMI - 04 Harley Davidson Screamin Eagle - 93 Harley Davidson Nostalgia


     

    Of course you can use any car to drive anywhere also in Germany (no need to change cars...). 

    Honestly, most people doing inner city driving in front of cafes do it on purpose. I would even go as far as to say that many just use their sportscars for that purpose Smiley And that, clearly, is not the area where sportscars should be used Smiley

    Just think of my example of NYC again: well-off people in NYC will think you are nuts if you drive around the city in a Ferrari or Lamoborghini all the time. It is simply not a suitable and accepted car in NYC. Same applies to Berlin.


    Re: Where are all the Porsches in Berlin?

    STRADALE:
    MKSGR:

    Showing off a Porsche (or any other expensive car) in Berlin is not a sign of good taste - this young and trendy city is very understated Smiley

     

    Too bad. Really too bad....Smiley


    Actually understatement is not the most suitable characterization of a typical Berliner Smiley I lived in Berlin for eight years (during the "wild" 90ies) and members of my family still live there. I love Berlin because it's a real exciting place - the other big cities in Germany are boring in comparison (just IMHO) Smiley

    As per my own experience the (relative) small number of expensive sportscars in the city has nothing to do with understatement or PC nonsense (read: envy) nor with a "good taste" issue.

    As stated correctly by Markus demography and average income in Berlin is very different from cities like Hamburg, München or Düsseldorf (the three cities with the biggest Porsche density in Germany AFAIK).

    Reasons for the low sportscar "population" in Berlin (IMO):

    (1) In Berlin there is a bigger fraction of population which earns less money (compared to other big cities in Germany).

    (2) Those who could afford to buy an expensive sportscar often are young professionals or business owners in business segments like design, fashion and similar "non industrial / non banking" sectors. They tick very different compared to an investment banker living in Frankfurt or a corporate executive living in Munich Smiley 

    I should know because my brother living in Berlin is one of them (has his own successful design business) and he easily could buy a nice sportscar (if he would like to he probably could humiliate me as a humble GT3 owner in showing up with a GT2 RS Smiley)  The astonishing thing is that these guys are simply not interested in sportscars at all Smiley It's not that they hate sportscars - you even can discuss with them all night about design aspects of a Porsche or Ferrari in a very professional way, but they are simply not interested in the performance aspects or the thrill of driving such a car (they rather go bungee jumping - nothing for me Smiley).

    Maybe driving a performance car just for the fun of it is becoming a thing of the past and soon will be regarded as "old school" by the youth Smiley

     


    --
     

    public roads: Porsche 987 S Seal/Cocoa, toll road Smiley : Porsche 997 GT3 Arctic/Black


    Re: Where are all the Porsches in Berlin?

    ...(2) Those who could afford to buy an expensive sportscar often are young professionals or business owners in business segments like design, fashion and similar "non industrial / non banking" sectors. They tick very different compared to an investment banker living in Frankfurt or a corporate executive living in Munich Smiley 

     

     


     

    Yes, yes, the bankers in Frankfurt tick differently Smiley ... they always do ... Smiley

    IMHO a lot of these people here regard a Porsche, especially as a  convertible, as pure fun cars to drive around the country side on the weekends. They will certainly not drive such cars to a client meeting, therefore it is the commuting on weekdays to the office and the occational desperate search for a parking space after work near a crowded cafe Smiley....I doubt, that many of these cars pile up a lot of milage or have ever seen a race track...


    Re: Where are all the Porsches in Berlin?

    Porsche-Jeck:
    STRADALE:
    MKSGR:

    Showing off a Porsche (or any other expensive car) in Berlin is not a sign of good taste - this young and trendy city is very understated Smiley

     

    Too bad. Really too bad....Smiley


    Actually understatement is not the most suitable characterization of a typical Berliner Smiley I lived in Berlin for eight years (during the "wild" 90ies) and members of my family still live there. I love Berlin because it's a real exciting place - the other big cities in Germany are boring in comparison (just IMHO) Smiley

    As per my own experience the (relative) small number of expensive sportscars in the city has nothing to do with understatement or PC nonsense (read: envy) nor with a "good taste" issue.

    As stated correctly by Markus demography and average income in Berlin is very different from cities like Hamburg, München or Düsseldorf (the three cities with the biggest Porsche density in Germany AFAIK).

    Reasons for the low sportscar "population" in Berlin (IMO):

    (1) In Berlin there is a bigger fraction of population which earns less money (compared to other big cities in Germany).

    (2) Those who could afford to buy an expensive sportscar often are young professionals or business owners in business segments like design, fashion and similar "non industrial / non banking" sectors. They tick very different compared to an investment banker living in Frankfurt or a corporate executive living in Munich Smiley 

    I should know because my brother living in Berlin is one of them (has his own successful design business) and he easily could buy a nice sportscar (if he would like to he probably could humiliate me as a humble GT3 owner in showing up with a GT2 RS Smiley)  The astonishing thing is that these guys are simply not interested in sportscars at all Smiley It's not that they hate sportscars - you even can discuss with them all night about design aspects of a Porsche or Ferrari in a very professional way, but they are simply not interested in the performance aspects or the thrill of driving such a car (they rather go bungee jumping - nothing for me Smiley).

    Maybe driving a performance car just for the fun of it is becoming a thing of the past and soon will be regarded as "old school" by the youth Smiley

     

     

     

    You lived there so obviously you would know best but I'd probably add  another reason:

    3) There's a chance your car will be BBQ'd? 

    "Burning cars has long been a popular nocturnal pastime in Berlin"

    Sounds very Cosmopolitan...

    RE: Porsche-Jeck: "nothing to do with PC nonsense (read: envy) " 

    The investigators seem to disagree- 

    "The investigators A spokeswoman for the police said that of the 372 cars torched in 2011, 155 were being treated as "politically motivated" crimes. "

    berlin-burning-007.jpg

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2011/aug/26/berlin-torched-cars-elections

     


    --

    08 PORSCHE Turbo Cabriolet - 06 Ferrari F430 - 04 Durango HEMI - 04 Harley Davidson Screamin Eagle - 93 Harley Davidson Nostalgia


    Re: Where are all the Porsches in Berlin?

    MKSGR:
    STRADALE:
    SoCal Alan:
    Spyderidol:
    MKSGR:
    Spyderidol:

     Good God! Has it really come to this?!

     Why? Personally, I feel that this is a positive thing. I honestly don't like it when people show off their cars in the city Smiley These cars are built for passionate driving and not for parking exercises in front of a street cafe...

     I understand your point, but I value far more the freedom allowing anyone to do what they want with their money . It's their business, not mine.


    Agreed.

    MKSGR, are you saying that you can't even drive your Porsche to dinner in Berlin?

     

    Weird too that it seems agreeable from RT members who you would think understand the reasons behind the ownership of high end sports cars.... Maybe they're at that "street cafe" because they've been out driving hard, enjoying their car all day and they didn't want to drive home to change cars to satisfy other people's possible feelings about why they're there. ? Maybe they're there because they just came back from a 2 weeks business trip and miss their car, plan to take it for a nice evenings drive after dinner? Maybe it's a guy that has studied then worked hard, saved all his life to own one beautiful dream car; his new Porsche & it's the only car he has and ever plans to have so that's how, the only way he's getting to the city & he's smiling at the thought of being anywhere, doesn't matter where,,, in his dream car? 

    I mean really are people at that point where the existence of someone else "car in the city" means to others, they're their just to "show off"???? Once it's not okay for pulling into/parking in a city, where is not okay next??? But I've often heard this on RT, about how it's become not PC to drive a Porsche in certain places in Europe... Luckily in the US for the most part this isn't the case but I'm afraid this envy/not PC to drive certain cars in places is creeping into the US in places as well...


    --

    08 PORSCHE Turbo Cabriolet - 06 Ferrari F430 - 04 Durango HEMI - 04 Harley Davidson Screamin Eagle - 93 Harley Davidson Nostalgia


     

    Of course you can use any car to drive anywhere also in Germany (no need to change cars...). 

    Honestly, most people doing inner city driving in front of cafes do it on purpose. I would even go as far as to say that many just use their sportscars for that purpose Smiley And that, clearly, is not the area where sportscars should be used Smiley

    Just think of my example of NYC again: well-off people in NYC will think you are nuts if you drive around the city in a Ferrari or Lamoborghini all the time. It is simply not a suitable and accepted car in NYC. Same applies to Berlin.

     

    As far as "accepted car in NYC", I really have never come across anyone while in NYC saying what kind of car is acceptable and which is not. In fact one of the largest high end sports car dealership's in NY is in Manhattan. Porsche, Lambo:   

    http://manhattanmotorcars.com/

    No one was talking about driving around aimlessly in the city "all the time" Or even "Ferrari's", the subject was seeing Porsche's in the city..

    I constantly see Porsche's in NYC, CONSTANTLY... And the city is LOADED with other high end cars Bentley's, Audi's, BMW's (like the one burning in the above picture)  AMG Merc.'s.. It seems there are as many Mercs, Audi's & Bimmers driving around NYC as Taxi's... Matter of fact last year I helped a friend buy a used SL55 @ Mercedes Benz Manhattan.. The biggest car show in the state is at the Javits Center NYC.. While you do see Ferrari's & Lambo's the reason you don't see as many has to do with the brutal street conditions & parking, not anything to do w/ whether it's PC or if they are "accepted" by people or not.  We don't do that here...Think my dealer also just opened a Ferrari facility in Manhattan as a matter of fact... When you do see a Lambo or Ferrari people LOVE looking at them. Parking one anywhere will have you 20 friends in 20 seconds and plenty of people taking pictures (trust me)... Here it's a POSITIVE thing,, it brings out plenty of smiles & good/fun conversations and you'd probably have some good samaritan stop a vandal before you would actually have your nice car set on fire..

    At the top of the thread you said you felt it was a "positive thing" to not see sports cars in the city because you don't like to see people "showing off" -  I think right from the beginning we're wayyyy too far off to come to any kind of concensus on this so not sure if further discussion would be helpful... 


    --

    08 PORSCHE Turbo Cabriolet - 06 Ferrari F430 - 04 Durango HEMI - 04 Harley Davidson Screamin Eagle - 93 Harley Davidson Nostalgia


    Re: Where are all the Porsches in Berlin?

    STRADALE:

    As far as "accepted car in NYC", I really have never come across anyone while in NYC saying what kind of car is acceptable and which is not. In fact one of the largest high end sports car dealership's in NY is in Manhattan. Porsche, Lambo:   

    http://manhattanmotorcars.com/

    No one was talking about driving around aimlessly in the city "all the time" Or even "Ferrari's", the subject was seeing Porsche's in the city..

    I constantly see Porsche's in NYC, CONSTANTLY... And the city is LOADED with other high end cars Bentley's, Audi's, BMW's (like the one burning in the above picture)  AMG Merc.'s.. It seems there are as many Mercs, Audi's & Bimmers driving around NYC as Taxi's... Matter of fact last year I helped a friend buy a used SL55 @ Mercedes Benz Manhattan.. The biggest car show in the state is at the Javits Center NYC.. While you do see Ferrari's & Lambo's the reason you don't see as many has to do with the brutal street conditions & parking, not anything to do w/ whether it's PC or if they are "accepted" by people or not.  We don't do that here...Think my dealer also just opened a Ferrari facility in Manhattan as a matter of fact... When you do see a Lambo or Ferrari people LOVE looking at them. Parking one anywhere will have you 20 friends in 20 seconds and plenty of people taking pictures (trust me)... Here it's a POSITIVE thing,, it brings out plenty of smiles & good/fun conversations and you'd probably have some good samaritan stop a vandal before you would actually have your nice car set on fire..


    --

    08 PORSCHE Turbo Cabriolet - 06 Ferrari F430 - 04 Durango HEMI - 04 Harley Davidson Screamin Eagle - 93 Harley Davidson Nostalgia


     Based on my personal impressions there is a comparatively small numbers of high-end cars driving around in NYC (more Maybach/Bentley than sportscars though). Also, I think that a decent car in NYC does not make as much sense as in other places on this planet Smiley Most New Yorkers seem to think similarly. A big limousine with a driver is very useful for sure - but a Ferrari or Lamborghini? In NYC??


    Re: Where are all the Porsches in Berlin?

    PJ has summed up the situation very well, better than I could ever do. There are two different elements in this discussion, the low number of sportscars in Berlin in general and the damage certain people do to them. I do believe that they are related but not necessarily depend on each other.

    As being said in a few threads before on this forum, Berlin has a specific social and historical past that makes it different from many other major cities in Europe. For example Westgerman citizens could escape from Military service when they moved to Westberlin while West and East was still separated. The unification in the 90ies has turned the entire city upside down, Westberlin was suddenly not the isolated area anymore, Eastberlin had to endure the same reformation process as the rest of the former GDR as have many other states of the former Communistic sector.

    I have to agree with Gregg that the "torching" of cars cleraly originates in leftist thinking and is aimed at speculators that buy cheap housing and sell after renovation for a margin. In these people´ obscure mind this forces the previous, poorer inhabitants to move out and search for different housing space which supposedly gets harder to find in the city. Interesting to note that these renovated areas have become the in-districts of Berlin in most recent years. I do not want to indulge in the state of these people´s minds but it is needless to say that this is not only a single ill-motivated person. I recently read a newspaper article about the correlation of executive power and the inverse effect on dilapidation, something that immediatly comes to mind when I think of this particular city. Munich is the prime example for me how cities can be run if there are social foundations and the funding to keep the city in a proper state. Once my car was damaged (sic) amongst others, the police arrived within minutes, requested a colleague to take fingerprints of the delinquent and subsequently caught him. On the other hand, Berlin´s police is driving around in Opel Corsa for financial reasons...

    1315319031704bee.jpg

     


     
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