Jun 12, 2022 11:43:36 PM
Some people don’t understand regen braking. How EV s brake 95% of the time. And that this is an old model. It is not a track car and brakes for that s level of power for a track given the weight would be silly. Just more FUD for fools to consume spread like manure by people with no clue who don’t understand ICE is dead.
Jun 13, 2022 4:00:14 AM
Leawood911:Some people don’t understand regen braking. How EV s brake 95% of the time. And that this is an old model. It is not a track car and brakes for that s level of power for a track given the weight would be silly. Just more FUD for fools to consume spread like manure by people with no clue who don’t understand ICE is dead.
Taycans have great brakes and great performance.
Just saying.
Before, Tesla do not have generator assisted braking when using the brake pedals. It's physical brakes only. They have since added an update to add generator regeneration assist to the physical brake pedal, but they way they implement it is in reverse. The car will use up the physical brakes first before adding regen assist, when the proper way is to use up all available regeneration assist first to lessen the load on the physical brakes when they are finally engaged.
It would seems Tesla simply do not understand how brakes worked.
Whoopsy:It would seems Tesla simply do not understand how brakes worked.
Same for Lucid Air. They copied Tesla's system. I much prefer the Taycan way of braking.
Mike
918 Spyder + 992 GT3 Touring + Taycan Turbo + Tesla Roadster 1.5 & Model S P100D AP2 + BMWs (Z8 + 3.0 CSi) + Bentley Arnage T
Jun 13, 2022 11:53:05 AM
Gladstone:More related to another thread, but since Tesla seems to have the advantage I thought to just post it here.
While the Taycan is using a limited slip differential on the rear axle, does anyone think that is actually a better approach than Tesla Plaid utilizing two electric motors for the rear wheel drive ? plus of course another for the front axle. It just seems like the Porsche introduces a big basket of old fashioned mechanical inefficiency.
Autocar recently ran an article on this very issue. Here’s the link to the article: https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/features/new-torque-tech-making-audi-e-trons-evs-drift
W8MM:Whoopsy:It would seems Tesla simply do not understand how brakes worked.
Same for Lucid Air. They copied Tesla's system. I much prefer the Taycan way of braking.
Well those guys came out from Tesla.
Their system is custom designed for maximum regen on everyday city driving, having the car automatically apply regen braking whenever the throttle is off is a great thing for city stop and go traffic. One reason they can save money by not designing a proper blended braking system.
There is no worse brake system than the one in my Trackhawk. 400 mm brake discs in the front but pretty much worthless when you use the brake at higher outside temps on the Autobahn, doing 240-260 kph (I do not drive faster because the car gets scary at speeds over 280 kph).
Why would a car company install such a crappy brake system in a 717 hp 2.5 tons truck???
They don't even need a ceramic brake system but the proper brake size and ventilation. The Trackhawk's brake system is from Brembo and Brembo has enough "proper" brake systems in their development catalogue for OEM manufacturers. It is really a shame that US car makers always seem to fuel the prejudice when it comes to brake systems. The chassis has improved, the steering is also OK but the brake system is YUCK. Interior quality is acceptable though.
RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Lamborghini Huracan Performante (2019), BMW Z4 M40i (2022), Jeep Grand Cherokee Trackhawk (2019 EU)
Cultural thing.
North American highways tops out at maybe 80mph, so if the brake system is good enough to stop a moving vehicle from 80 to rest in a semi-reasonable time, it's good enough for production.
And for their favourite 'racing', drag racing. Drag strip have really long braking area, more than enough for cars doing 130ish mph to slow down enough to do the 180 at the end of the strip, there is really nothing taxing the braking system in North America.
Corvettes are different. GM races them, successfully, so the team understands the importance of a good braking system, Corvette have great brakes. And more importantly, brake cooling.
Others might fit really big brakes on their car and call it 'track ready' or whatever. But they failed to engineer adequate cooling to go with that, which is the second part to good braking.
Jun 13, 2022 6:20:18 PM
Exactly. Although one could argue that for street driving all over the world brakes are almost always perfectly able to do their job. If you are driving at high speeds repeatedly and braking hard more than two or three times on the street you are being a maniac. To match the 1000 HP with a track ready brake setup would be as non sensible as doing that to the TrackHawk. Money is better spent on lawyers to get out of jail at that point.
Back in the real world the regen on the Teslas is so strong and easy to modulate that the brakes are hardly ever used at all. I doubt I have use 5% of the pads in 38k miles. One pedal driving just puts a totally different load on the old standard brakes. Go down Pikes peak or any mountain pass and while other cars have overheated brakes the Teslas battery simply loads up a charge. It is the only car where you could have a 100% brake failure and still drive it for weeks very rapidly without even noticing. In an ICE car if your brakes fail you are going home on a trailer. Will the Porsche come to a complete stop without using the brake pedal?
We can discuss blended braking all day long - if you feel the need to use a brake pedal. I prefer one pedal driving so much more so blended braking for me would be a waste of money. I like knowing a simple Brembo system is backing me up for a stop or three.
Jun 13, 2022 7:21:48 PM
RC:There is no worse brake system than the one in my Trackhawk. 400 mm brake discs in the front but pretty much worthless when you use the brake at higher outside temps on the Autobahn, doing 240-260 kph (I do not drive faster because the car gets scary at speeds over 280 kph).
Just for some of the more unit of measure challenged let me say " 149 to 161" mph because scary over 174 mph.
Scary reminder of Leawood911 having a boxster loaner car and being very generous to let a co-workers girlfriend drive his car while I drove her convertible piece of garbage chrysler product which they warned me had questionable brakes. One of the scariest drives of my life; a brake pedal so vague you really wondered if your leg had just checked out on you. Maybe you just weren't really pushing that pedal any more. Not like I ever exceeded 60 mph, just scary at any speed. perhaps some of the same engineering carried over to the Trackhawk. Really hoping not so much, but it was a very interesting drive in increasing your safety zone.
Jun 14, 2022 10:37:58 AM
Whoopsy:Tesla builds transportation appliances. Nothing more, just like a toaster oven, it works.
Others build proper cars that can do everything.
As a Tesla owner who put 40 k miles on in two years working from home because the car is so fun and capable - while parking a 997 turbo - I can’t think of a more totally wrong statement. Absolutely 100% totally wrong. In fact exactly the opposite. Sad actually that someone has such a wrongheaded opinion.
It is crazy fast, handles like a slot car, never breaks down, keeps it’s value and does hundreds of things other car companies only freak of being technically capable of.
Ask yourself folks. - Am I lying or is Whoopsy? If you have not owned or driven a Tesla you might be tempted to read and trust Whoopsy but if you have you must be wondering, like I do, why say such silly things. Doing nobody a favor making such nonsense claims. It is one thing to have an opinion but to just make up huge lies is getting weird indeed.
I have yet to find an ICE car or other EV car that can do everything and none are close to as complete as the Teslas.
Jun 14, 2022 2:44:35 PM
That's a bit subjective from you isn't it regarding Tesla? We know you absolutely love your Model 3.
And the comparison with a toaster is a compliment. When is the last time you seen a toaster breaking down? They literally last forever, it works every time you use it. Simple to use. Get's the job done. Not unlike a Tesla, simple to use, gets the job done, rarely breaks down.
All I know is, I have been driving my sons to the same school for the last 17 years. At first it was all minivans doing drop-offs, I see the odd sedans, Porsches every now and then. For the last 5 years or so, all the minivans have disappeared, replaced with various Teslas, Model 3s, Model Xs, Model Ys. I will see at least 50-60 Teslas just around the school every day, not counting those that I encountered on the road.
Now when it is being used for as mundane a task as school runs every day doesn't count as it being a transportation appliance, I don't know what is. It's not even my 'opinion', it's an observation I see everyday.
Jun 14, 2022 6:22:24 PM
Leawood911:Will the Porsche come to a complete stop without using the brake pedal?
We can discuss blended braking all day long - if you feel the need to use a brake pedal. I prefer one pedal driving so much more so blended braking for me would be a waste of money. I like knowing a simple Brembo system is backing me up for a stop or three.
Pedal, schmedal.
I agree that one might only NEED one pedal, but I have found after extensive driving of 2008 Tesla Roadster, 2012 Tesla Model S, 2018 Tesla Model S P100D and my Taycan Turbo that I greatly prefer using a "deceleration" pedal to engage recuperation braking instead of reducing the pressure on an "acceleration" pedal to do the same thing. During medium to semi-high deceleration, lifting my "go" foot accurately is counteracted by the g-forces acting on my leg and foot from slowing down. I find it tedious to get accurate deceleration in a Tesla-style brake system whereas the Taycan-style system is much less confounding to operate. I can apply foot pressure to the "slow" pedal in a Taycan and get very accurate response to my input without fighting g-forces. I would never have known this without driving the Taycan back to back with Teslas.
The "deceleration" pedal on a Taycan does not cause the friction brake pads to even touch the brake discs until 200-ish kW of recuperation is exceeded and even more slowing is demanded. Tesla one-foot driving is limited to around 60 kW of recuperation and by your testimony that is plenty for your typical usage case. Why on earth complain about "blended braking" in a Taycan when the energy efficiency of 200+ kW of recuperation is available with NO friction braking involved?????
You argue it costs too much for you to value it. That's a different argument than which system is objectively better.
Mike
918 Spyder + 992 GT3 Touring + Taycan Turbo + Tesla Roadster 1.5 & Model S P100D AP2 + BMWs (Z8 + 3.0 CSi) + Bentley Arnage T
Jun 14, 2022 9:47:22 PM
Whoopsy:On the Taycan, just like other hybrids from Porsche, the initial 0.4g of braking force, up to 255kW worth, is absorbed by the regen motors, anything more on top is passed onto the friction brakes.
To Mike as well. I respect your preferences and while enjoy one pedal driving I get that for quick stopping the left pedal is essential and in the case of the Tesla it is pretty standard and not as advanced. Kinda like my budget. It would not be a driving force in my decision. I also grew up slot cars racing and that is the ultimate one pedal driving/racing. I wish I could have more regen without engaging track mode because fin track mode the car will not come to a complete stop without the brake pedal for the last 2-4 mph.
which brings me back to my question. - will the Porsche or Audi or any of them come to a complete stop without a brake pedal ( or obstacles in the way ). I am just curious. It would be good, IMHO, to have that feature available just in case.
Jun 14, 2022 10:52:58 PM
Every other car maker who makes EVs and hybrids have blended braking on their brake pedal. Tesla is the only one who doesn't do it. Well they do it in reverse, adding regen braking on top of friction brakes instead of using up all the regen braking first before going the friction route.
It's plain and simple, a cost saving feature. Doing it the Tesla way means they don't have to engineering a proper braking system with bypass and reserve tanks and bleed valves. They take an off the shelf braking system and just write some codes to tell the motors to remain active in generator mode.
Tesla steadfastly refuse to implement blended braking simple because Elon doesn't want to admit he is wrong. 🤷🏻♂️ Just like how he will hold onto 400V system till eternity as he doesn't want to admit defeat and play the catch up game.
As for your question, how about you asking why Elon doesn't move the steering control to the touchscreen? It's safer fro everyone if the last bit of braking is done mechanically, so the driver IS actually paying attention, or else they might not even be looking at where they are going and relying on the car to make the right decision and come to a complete stop. Just like it's safer to keep the steering wheel as a physical item.
My Wrangler 4xe has HEAVY liftoff regen, but even in that car the regen braking will not stop the car, it will slow it down to crawling speed only and need the driver to be attentive and use the friction brakes to come to a completely stop.
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Jun 15, 2022 1:33:34 AM
I guess that is an answer to if these cars will stop without the brake pedal. Wow. Thanks.
fyi to one pedal drive and smoothly arrive at a stop also requires attention and some skill.
Given the car has effectively two braking systems which can function independent of one another additional investment in blending a brake system hardly ever used seems pretty trivial and not really a game changer like - oh maybe - over the air updates or superior speed and efficiency.
Back to my point about what happens if the brake system fails - trailer it home.
Much is not understood about how Teslas are built and what is prioritized when engineering these cars. Hence ridiculous suggestions like steering on the touchscreen. Sounds like sour grapes when it gets that funny.
Lastly there is not one good argument for why an aotumaker would want to avoid offering one pedal driving in an EV. Making one use the brakes to come to a stop and not being able to support not using the brakes makes zero sense. In your last sentence you are actually proud of the fact that a brake pedal is required and one must pay attention. This has zero to do with paying attention it is simply a feature and ability which is logical. Your excuse that needing a brake is better is a joke - right? Preference is once thing but this is like arguing that a manual with a clutch pedal s mandatory for a safe driving experience. Some truely silly stuff stuff if you ask me. Maybe think that over.
Jun 15, 2022 4:06:19 AM
I think you are the one that's not getting it as you are so deeply in love with your Tesla you cannot be objective anymore.
You do understands a normal braking system is a mechanical one right? it doesn't need electricity or software running to function.
Regen braking is not a mechanical system, it's an electronic system. What happened if the car froze up? Or it reset itself? No software running, the traction motor won't be running as generator to provide the resistance, the car won't stop. it is as simple as that.
Elon likes to push the boundary on what is consider safe. He isn't always right. See the most recent report about Autopilot cannot recognize stationary emergency vehicles. Elon took away the radar distance measurements and only rely on the cameras, but the flashing lights on the emergency vehicles are confusing the cameras hence they aren't stopping or taking avoiding actions and plow into them.
Jun 15, 2022 4:14:35 PM
Boxster Coupe GTS:TesIa is confirmed as a market leader...
...in crashing!
It would be more useful to report those crashes by percentage of ADAS-equipped vehicles for each brand. This listing may only say there are many more Teslas with ADAS on the road than other makes.
We might also say that many more white and black Porsches crash than any other color.
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Mike
918 Spyder + 992 GT3 Touring + Taycan Turbo + Tesla Roadster 1.5 & Model S P100D AP2 + BMWs (Z8 + 3.0 CSi) + Bentley Arnage T
Jun 15, 2022 5:42:23 PM
While one agrees with the need to normalize the data, based on the installed base by manufacturer; however, it is doubtful Tesla’s installed base is greater than the sum of all the other manufacturers listed on the chart. This still implies that Tesla is an outlier compared with the rest of the industry.
Jun 15, 2022 5:46:20 PM
Whoopsy:I think you are the one that's not getting it as you are so deeply in love with your Tesla you cannot be objective anymore.
You do understands a normal braking system is a mechanical one right? it doesn't need electricity or software running to function.
Regen braking is not a mechanical system, it's an electronic system. What happened if the car froze up? Or it reset itself? No software running, the traction motor won't be running as generator to provide the resistance, the car won't stop. it is as simple as that.
Elon likes to push the boundary on what is consider safe. He isn't always right. See the most recent report about Autopilot cannot recognize stationary emergency vehicles. Elon took away the radar distance measurements and only rely on the cameras, but the flashing lights on the emergency vehicles are confusing the cameras hence they aren't stopping or taking avoiding actions and plow into them.
You answered my question. Some EVs require you to use the brake pedal and therefore do not support one pedal driving. To me that makes no sense. Maybe it does to others. I would not buy it. It is like having an automatic and requiring use of a clutch pedal. Has zero to do with my appreciation of the Tesla - that is just another silly totally unrelated argument which has nothing to do with one pedal driving.
End of confusion I hope.
Jun 15, 2022 5:55:30 PM
CGX car nut:While one agrees with the need to normalize the data, based on the installed base by manufacturer; however, it is doubtful Tesla’s installed base is greater than the sum of all the other manufacturers listed on the chart. This still implies that Tesla is an outlier compared with the rest of the industry.
Or not. Why look so hard away from injury accident data per mile driven. Or just for grins , why not borrow a Tesla for a week and understand the tech a bit. Why on earth would I give a crap about all this FUD if my first hand knowledge was not so contradictory to the FUD? What are my motives to mislead any of you?? Reality folks is the FUD so well disguised and is it so hard to grasp with all the competitors struggling to catch up.
No other car is as safe period - these are the types of stories you have to seek out to come up with stats like this. It would be funny if at the same time they are steering consumers into far more dangerous and polluting choices - obviously knowingly.
Simple question is - would any consumer seriously look at these stats and think a Tesla is dangerous - that is the hope and prayer behind this FUD. Of course not. By now we see it as the obvious lie we have come to expect. Those who bite kinda deserve it.
Jun 15, 2022 6:40:10 PM
Jun 15, 2022 8:41:17 PM
Volkswagen to Overtake Tesla’s Battery Electric Vehicle Sales Crown by 2024, Finds Bloomberg Intelligence
June 14, 2022
Tesla to retain global sales top spot for at least another year, before Volkswagen – already leading in Europe – likely overtakes it as early as 2024
New York, June 14, 2022 – Tesla is likely to retain its global number one battery electric vehicle (BEV) sales spot for at least another 18 months as legacy automakers struggle to sell a meaningful share of BEVs in 2022 and 2023 according to a new major report on the global EV sector by research firm Bloomberg Intelligence (BI).
The report entitled ‘Battery Electric Vehicles Report – Automakers Race to the Top’ finds that the profit incentive to catch up with Tesla is lacking for most traditional marques in the short term amid rising battery costs and a lack of scale, except for Volkswagen. The German automaker is on track to overtake Tesla’s BEV volume in 2024 as global BEV demand is set to more than double out to 2025. BI’s analysis shows China’s BYD ranking third for BEV sales globally in 2025 followed by a glut of legacy automakers languishing around the one million annual BEV sales mark. It is not until later in the decade that US and Japanese automakers will be serious challengers for a top 3 spot.
In a bid to challenge Tesla’s $686 billion dollar market cap – which is almost double that of all US and EU legacy automakers combined – the report highlights that legacy automakers are unlikely to succeed in divesting BEV-related assets that are intertwined with their combustion operations and whose cash flows are paying for the transition. Volkswagen is the exception and is on track to launch an IPO of its Porsche brand in 4Q. Given the company’s potential 30% BEV sales mix in 2023 and about 45% in 2025, it is significantly ahead of peers and could attract a luxury based 85 billion euros valuation for the IPO and, possibly, an even higher tech-oriented valuation, according to the report.
“Looking ahead, automakers in Europe, China and elsewhere will continue to challenge Tesla via an impending wave of new models, though profit incentives are limited amid rising battery costs and a lack of scale. That may change in 2025-26 as more brands achieve critical mass on new-generation models with proprietary software. There are a number of challenging external factors to consider and bold BEV ambitions have done little to prevent crisis-level valuation multiples, stoked by recession fears, rising interest rates, supply-chain constraints and inflation,” said Michael Dean, Senior European Automotive Industry Analyst at Bloomberg Intelligence.
Battery prices remain critical to the cost competitiveness of BEVs and Volkswagen is investing up to EUR30 billion in the supply chain, including the opening of six new battery-cell plants in Europe by 2030. Swedish battery developer Northvolt starts production on premium cells for it in 2023, notes BI, while Audi’s midsize Q4 BEV SUV already has a similar margin to its internal-combustion-engine counterpart, the Q3.
“China’s carrot-and-stick approach to stoking EV sales could push battery-electrics to account for 25% of all passenger vehicle purchases by 2025. Sales in China have surged since the launch of the country’s new energy vehicle credit program despite erratic component supply,” said Steve Man, Senior China Automotive Industry Analyst at Bloomberg Intelligence.
Volkswagen, BMW and other foreign brands’ sales in China may come at the expense of pricing and profitability, having ceded first-mover advantage to Tesla and local makers. BYD, Nio, Xpeng and other local firms are rapidly closing the technology and branding gaps, wooing consumers not only with driving range and power, but also lower prices, luxury trim and even virtual-reality entertainment.
“Ford is set to spin the electric vehicle narrative away from Tesla with the F-150 Lightning getting an early – and year-long – jump on the competition and making Ford the first automaker to ramp up production of a full-size battery-only pickup truck. General Motors and Tesla won’t compete in the space before 2023 and Rivian’s small scale makes it unthreatening,” according to Kevin Tynan, Senior North American Automotive Industry Analysts at Bloomberg Intelligence.
“Japanese automakers are crafting their electrified vehicle strategies with comprehensive offerings to meet the requirements of different markets. The industry is poised to accelerate electrification efforts, leveraging expertise gained from hybrids, which now dominate their domestic market, to compete, including in battery electric vehicles,” said Tatsuo Yoshida, Senior Japanese Automotive Industry Analyst at Bloomberg Intelligence.
The full report “BI Battery Electric Vehicles Report – Automakers Race to the Top” is available via the following link. The BI report specifically forecasts automaker’s battery electric vehicles sales up to 2025. For a longer-term view on electric vehicles up to 2050, please refer to BloombergNEF’s latest Long-Term Electric Vehicle Outlook 2022.
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Jun 15, 2022 10:23:38 PM
Not even the VW board believes this prediction. Lol. Good one. Triggered my laughter.
this may help with understanding https://youtu.be/GzBCP5FJkzU
triggered? I am firmly attached to reality. The Tesla FUD is not and if fall for it well … too bad. Kinda funny since there are so many warnings. Btw the other systems are so limited and incapable of being utilized it does not surprise me that the few cars out there don’t see much activity. Their cars can’t even auto report the incidents. Note zero talk of deaths or injuries in all this safety concern while no mind is paid to cars without any of these safety features and people die in them constantly.
making fun of me for pointing out the obvious is just so rewarding for me.
Jun 16, 2022 12:09:04 AM
Other car makers have no need to fear.
EV market is growing, but still not meaningful yet as consumers are still not buying EVs en masse. In the best case market, it only accounts for ~17-20% of all new car sales.
Consumers are still buying everything that's not hybrid or EVs, there is no reason for other car companies to stop making them. Governments are sort of forcing the adoption of EVs but if citizens aren't buying in, it's pointless.
But these car makers are ramping up their EV offerings, offering more choices for consumers, which is a good thing. Most people aren't into all the fluff offered by Tesla, FSD, Autopilot fart mode etc means nothing to most buyers. A lot of buyers are looking for styling, fit and finish, capacity, price point, etc. VW has the size and reach to offer different EVs at different price points with different styling and function, something Tesla is unable to do. Ford, Rivian are already shipping EV pickups, Cybertruck is still nowhere to be found. There are plenty of market segments Tesla simply cannot reach while other car makers are actively pursuing.
The Koreans are having break thought with content and pricing, the Ioniq 5/EV6 platform is best on the market right now, nothing matches them for car offered at that price point. When is the lat time you hear about having to pay ADM in order to buy a Hyundai?
Instead of reality, you are firmly attached to Elon's words. Believing every single word he said as if it's the bible. WE have no doubt you are deeply in love with your Model 3, and extremely satisfied with your purchase. We are very happy for you. But your one case does not represent the whole market, or even the rest of car buying public, or even other Tesla owners, plenty of which are fed up and discarded theirs for competitors' offerings. Are you even in proper reality or just Elon's version of reality? Sort of like Ameber Heard's reality vs the rest of the world's reality in the recent trial.
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