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    Re: Does the Cayman Have Legs?

    Quote:
    toplad said:
    Cayman owner having to get embroiled in a boring recycled discussion with 911/Boxster owners who constantly inject with their own insecurities regarding the Cayman.




    Just remember that it was THIS "insecure" (not) Boxster owner who took the time and trouble to scan and post the rave Autocar road test....

    Re: Does the Cayman Have Legs?

    Are you two married??

    Re: Does the Cayman Have Legs?

    Quote:
    vanilla said:
    Are you two married??




    Re: Does the Cayman Have Legs?

    Just dug out that autocar review... thanks, hadn't read that one!

    What is it, when you're buying a car, you HAVE to read every review available??!!! Complete obsession!!

    Re: Does the Cayman Have Legs?

    Quote:
    toplad said:
    Quote:
    MikeN said:
    Quote:
    mcdelaug said:
    Hmmmm, the whining continues, still no photos...what gives?

    mcdelaug



    Why?.....because this Cayman forum is DOA compared to all others....a farce from day one.

    As the old saying goes.....You only get one chance to make a good first impression.....and this forum got an F....not even worth the effort to post a photo. Does that pretty much answer your question?

    You want photos and many happy owners.....search the web for Cayman S sites.....you will find many of both without a problem.



    I agree, am glad someone's got a brain, Cayman owners are not going to come on here and post anything at all, when every thread turns into a debate about how the Cayman isn't selling (which it clearly is if any of the posters look at other threads and the sales figures) or the Cayman owner having to get embroiled in a boring recycled discussion with 911/Boxster owners who constantly inject with their own insecurities regarding the Cayman.

    The big picture is this, the Cayman has had brilliant reviews, the press are raving about it, the sales figures are good(even for this time of year) and time will tell if the Cayman has legs on not, but based on the reviews and recent sales figures I'd say yes without a doubt.

    One other thing, don't you not think Porsche have spent millions on finding out what will win and fail in the market place, it's not something Porsche will enter in to lightly, thousands of hours of time and vast sums of money has been spent to makes sure Porsche don't build a car that will fail, seen as Porsche make some of the best cars in the market place and has the highest profit margin of any car maker in the world, I'm inclined to go with their judgement over a few non-believes with nothing better to do than try and justify their own Porsche purchase time after time.



    Well SOME Cayman owners WILL come on and post photos of their cars...HHG did just that, and people had some very nice comments for him. I think that in general the board was very appreciative of his sharing his excitement about his new car.

    But there also seems to be a contingent who has chronically hurt feelings and an inability to tolerate any critisicism of the car (not even them personally mind you, just the Cayman as a concept) and feel compelled to wail and moan about how they're being mistreated. My hope was that sharing a few photos of your vehicles might help others see what you so enjoy about your car, but if somehow you get more out of playing the martyr in front of a bunch of strangers, well so be it.

    mcdelaug

    Re: Does the Cayman Have Legs?

    Quote:
    mcdelaug said:But there also seems to be a contingent who has chronically hurt feelings and an inability to tolerate any critisicism of the car (not even them personally mind you, just the Cayman as a concept) and feel compelled to wail and moan about how they're being mistreated. My hope was that sharing a few photos of your vehicles might help others see what you so enjoy about your car, but if somehow you get more out of playing the martyr in front of a bunch of strangers, well so be it.

    mcdelaug


    Well said that man. If the Cayman owners feel more at home on another site, that's fine. However I feel that Rennteam is a great place for those of like mind to share their cars and experiences. The Cayman and Boxster are so very similar, there is much common ground to share. There is no reason that this board cannot raise it's game to become a useful Cayman resource.

    So perhaps more constructive posts and less destructive or inflammatory ones? (Everyone??)

    Re: Does the Cayman Have Legs?

    Quote:
    wtsnet said:
    So perhaps more constructive posts and less destructive or inflammatory ones? (Everyone??)



    I did proffer an olive branch some time back but got it thrown back in my face. But good sentiment wtsnet as this is an excellent forum and we all ought to be able to get on with each other - it would be boring if we all agreed, don't you think?

    Re: Does the Cayman Have Legs?

    Getting back to the originial topic of this thread, does the Cayman have legs...

    Right now, I suspect that is quite dependent upon where one lives. I am not too surprised that some parts of the California coast aren't moving the product. First of all, there are a lot of high volume dealerships there, so they get bigger allocations of ALL models, so seeing more on the lot isn't as surprising. And second, there is clearly a more designer label/bling/looks > performance attitude there which would drive people to the 911 regardless of what would provide the absolute most enjoyment for them. But the Cayman seems to be selling pretty well here in Houston where that attitude is not so prevalent. Regardless, the two dealers here have both told me that it is still more difficult to keep 911 models in stock than the Cayman.

    The high level of interest at introduction and good magazine reviews have moved it along initially, but I think it will have to be offered with more power to continue to draw sales. Of the various people that buy Porsche, some will always want the 911, and no other car. Some will see the Boxster asa better value than the Cayman and prefer the softtop (I am in this group). But a few must want a mid-engine car that they can use a daily driver and a weekend track tool and find the hardtop makes a better car for them. However, in this era 295hp is going to be a tough sell after a couple of years of production fill the initial demand. Especially since Porsche has no plans to promote the car through racing it. I've said it many times, primarily because I believe it strongly: Porsche needs to offer mid-engine models at the same price points and performance levels as the 911. F and Lambo own that market now, but Porsche can clearly undercut them price wise even if the P cars are priced at 997S and 997TT figures. Anyway, we'll see I suppose.

    mcdelaug

    Re: Does the Cayman Have Legs?

    Quote:
    mcdelaug said:
    Porsche needs to offer mid-engine models at the same price points and performance levels as the 911. F and Lambo own that market nowmcdelaug



    Why?
    Like you say the others own that market segment and Porsche provides an alternative, cheaper, rear engine position and 4 seater (almost) with high margin and huge street appeal that is as fast as the others, the 911.

    So they propose a cheaper Cayman or a more expensive CGT as mid engined cars.
    Brilliant

    Re: Does the Cayman Have Legs?

    What I am trying to get across is that the rear engine 911 is not an alternative for everyone (myself included) even if it is priced below F and Lambo. I think (my opinion) that there is a market for a mid-engine Porsche with power and price similar to the 997S and 997TT. I can't spend $440K on a CGT, and the current Cayman S is not different enough from my 987S to interest me. But a 355hp, or a 473hp Cayman would be a different deal altogether.

    mcdelaug

    Re: Does the Cayman Have Legs?

    Porsche will not get rid of the 911. Why would they create an internal competitor of the 911? You are the exception, not the norm, and Porsche knows it. That translate into small sales, thus it won't happen.

    Re: Does the Cayman Have Legs?

    mcdelaug have you tested the Cayman?

    The only reason I ask is because, the Cayman is much more of a drivers car and the engine is a step up from the Boxster S than the figures suggest, to the extent I find the boxster held back and slow to rev. I suppose it depends on how much you value being able to put the roof down, I was very disapointed with Boxster S engine, clearly designed not to step on the 997 Convertible toes.

    Re: Does the Cayman Have Legs?

    Sci: I've never suggested Porsche get rid of the 911. They've got a highly evolved product that owns that niche. Clearly they'll "milk" it as long as possible. But having a full range of 911 models on offer doesn't preclude them from offering mid-engine models too. Many enthusiasts seem to view these platforms as mutually exclusive, but that just isn't so.

    Toplad: Yes, I have driven the Cayman, but not on a track, where I expcet its primary strengths would be most noticeable. Driven on public roads in a manner that reflects adequate respect for other drivers, I don't see a significant difference from my 987S. However, the hardtop was an obvious improvement in vehicle rigidity. I did find the styling to look better in person than in the photos.

    mcdelaug

    Re: Does the Cayman Have Legs?

    Quote:
    mcdelaug said:
    Sci: I've never suggested Porsche get rid of the 911. They've got a highly evolved product that owns that niche. Clearly they'll "milk" it as long as possible. But having a full range of 911 models on offer doesn't preclude them from offering mid-engine models too. Many enthusiasts seem to view these platforms as mutually exclusive, but that just isn't so.

    mcdelaug



    Porsche is too small to support these two platforms in the same power/performance segment. Look how long and how expensive it is/was to develop the Cayenne and the future Panamera.

    Also why weaken the 911 with an internal competition? That could be business suicide.

    Re: Does the Cayman Have Legs?

    Quote:
    mcdelaug said:

    Toplad: Yes, I have driven the Cayman, but not on a track, where I expcet its primary strengths would be most notice
    able. Driven on public roads in a manner that reflects adequate respect for other drivers, I don't see a significant difference from my 987S. However, the hardtop was an obvious improvement in vehicle rigidity. I did find the styling to look better in person than in the photos.

    mcdelaug


    You haven't really drove the car properly then, I tested the Cayman on very quite roads and manage to get up to 125mph like I would have done in my old 996, the Boxster along the same road was numb by comparison, the two cars are not different at normal speeds (how can they be?) but get the revs up and the performance difference is noticeable and obvious. The Cayman engine offers the same performance as the 3.4 in the 996(98-01 model) in my opinion. Something your not going to find out on most test drives

    Re: Does the Cayman Have Legs?

    I'm sure you're right toplad! Not really sure where such an opportunity might present itself however.

    mcdelaug


    Re: Does the Cayman Have Legs?

    Quote:
    mcdelaug said:
    I'm sure you're right toplad! Not really sure where such an opportunity might present itself however.

    mcdelaug



    Go for a test drive and thrash it within an inch of its life, its the only way to be sure, the Cayman is a sports and should be tested like one...There's absolutely no point in driving like miss daisy....It's got to done!!

    I've tested (owned) some really fast cars and have spanked every single one of them with the salesman sat at the side of me. Not one of them ever said anything, some went white though.

    Re: Does the Cayman Have Legs?

    Quote:
    toplad said:
    mcdelaug have you tested the Cayman?

    The only reason I ask is because, the Cayman is much more of a drivers car and the engine is a step up from the Boxster S than the figures suggest, to the extent I find the boxster held back and slow to rev. I suppose it depends on how much you value being able to put the roof down, I was very disapointed with Boxster S engine, clearly designed not to step on the 997 Convertible toes.



    With my test drive in the Cayman, that's exactly what I found. Even with cold, wet roads so it was not safe to push it too hard, the engine in the Cayman, which had only done 500 miles, revved much more freely than my 987 S which had done 6,000 miles at the time. Had the Cayman had more miles I guess the difference would have been even more noticeable.

    Re: Does the Cayman Have Legs?

    Quote:
    vtrader said:
    I was at Rusnak Porsche Pasadena this evening and noticed they had three Cayman and one CGT on the dealer floor. There were no 997s for many months at most dealerships. Has the buzz on the Cayman dropped off?



    My dealer has three Cayman S available too, two new cars and one testcar. And it is a very small dealership.
    The first hype is over. The "problem" of the Cayman S is simple: the price gap between the Boxster S and Cayman S is too big. If they would have priced the Cayman S at the same level as the Boxster S, it may have sold much better (cool roadster or nice and slightly more powerful sports coupe at the same price).
    And the Cayman S with some options is definetely too close to the 997 Carrera base model, price-wise.

    Re: Does the Cayman Have Legs?

    Quote:
    RC said:The "problem" of the Cayman S is simple: the price gap between the Boxster S and Cayman S is too big.



    RC, if you are correct, what do you think is the solution? If Porsche has messed up, how do they fix the poblem?

    Changing the price to your suggestion would really pi$$ off those buyers who paid the original price. But if (note I said IF) the Cayman sales are not up to Porsche's expectations, they will have to do something. I assume cancelling the car is a no-op.

    Has there been an example in the past where a car was priced too high to begin and was subsequently offered at a discount? I mean a high end car like the Cayman, not an Edsel.

    Re: Does the Cayman Have Legs?

    RC, That is what I think, it's overpriced, especially with typical options. Once they depreciate I think they will sell very well as used or certified pre owned. The new buyers are having to bite the bullet, of course this is true of all new car purchases, it's just more obvious because the Boxster S is available for comparison. You can buy a nice 2004 Targa for the price of a Cayman, or less depending on the options. That is part of the competition in my decision.

    Re: Does the Cayman Have Legs?

    Quote:
    RC said:
    Quote:
    vtrader said:
    I was at Rusnak Porsche Pasadena this evening and noticed they had three Cayman and one CGT on the dealer floor. There were no 997s for many months at most dealerships. Has the buzz on the Cayman dropped off?



    My dealer has three Cayman S available too, two new cars and one testcar. And it is a very small dealership.
    The first hype is over. The "problem" of the Cayman S is simple: the price gap between the Boxster S and Cayman S is too big. If they would have priced the Cayman S at the same level as the Boxster S, it may have sold much better (cool roadster or nice and slightly more powerful sports coupe at the same price).
    And the Cayman S with some options is definetely too close to the 997 Carrera base model, price-wise.



    RC, thats rubbish

    The Cayman sales figures are good and you've no way of knowing what the figures will be like in 6 months time or how many cars are sold or unsold now. It just a case of you being madly in love the 911.

    Re: Does the Cayman Have Legs?

    Quote:
    plz said:
    If Porsche has messed up, how do they fix the poblem?

    Changing the price to your suggestion would really pi$$ off those buyers who paid the original price. But if (note I said IF) the Cayman sales are not up to Porsche's expectations, they will have to do something. I assume cancelling the car is a no-op.





    As Cayman S is an excellent car IMO, it's not too expensive per se, it's just a matter of the "correct" pricegap "downwards" (Boxster S) and "upwards" (base Carrera). Porsche might become victim of it's own marketing genius with all those model variants and decreasing gaps in terms of pricing and performance....
    For the sportscar enthusiasts like us Rennteamers there are still other decisive factors than the price (coupé vs. cab, mid-engined vs. rear-engined), but I guess the majority of new Porsche buyers would look at the pricetag in the first place.

    Typical Porsche solution regarding the gap "downwards" would be to place the 3.4 engine into the Boxster S (rumors are already spreading) and lift the price of Boxster S into Cayman S region. Regarding the "upwards" gap I'm not so sure about the remedy: Porsche would not loose money anyway if a prospective Cayman S buyer would get tempted to go for the base Carrera - on the other hand the price gap is still more significant compared to the Boxster S/Cayman S gap. Maybe an upgrade of the base carrera with some more standard equipment (Xenon, PASM) and higher price tag might help.

    Re: Does the Cayman Have Legs?

    Quote:
    toplad said:
    Quote:
    RC said:
    Quote:
    vtrader said:
    I was at Rusnak Porsche Pasadena this evening and noticed they had three Cayman and one CGT on the dealer floor. There were no 997s for many months at most dealerships. Has the buzz on the Cayman dropped off?



    My dealer has three Cayman S available too, two new cars and one testcar. And it is a very small dealership.
    The first hype is over. The "problem" of the Cayman S is simple: the price gap between the Boxster S and Cayman S is too big. If they would have priced the Cayman S at the same level as the Boxster S, it may have sold much better (cool roadster or nice and slightly more powerful sports coupe at the same price).
    And the Cayman S with some options is definetely too close to the 997 Carrera base model, price-wise.



    RC, thats rubbish

    The Cayman sales figures are good and you've no way of knowing what the figures will be like in 6 months time or how many cars are sold or unsold now. It just a case of you being madly in love the 911.



    Agree. Funny, my dealer and a some others I know of can't seem to get as many as they can sell. The only one my dealer has now is a Silver demo.....nothing more. They had 3 about 2 weeks ago and are waiting for more now. They have also sold a vast price range on them....from a black/black $60K stripper to an $80K GT Silver/Cocoa.

    Off the lot sales are not what Porsche is about anyway....most Caymans are special ordered.....and you won't see them sitting around a lot. Not a very good way to judge sales at all.

    Time of year, weather, geographical area, and the individual dealer all affect sales, and from what I have seen sales are just fine. Lets be prudent here and wait a full year to judge them.

    Re: Does the Cayman Have Legs?

    Agree that it's way to early to make a final judgement.
    I'm sure that RC's impression is strongly influenced from the somewhat cooling off Porsche sales in Germany. Fresh data from yesterday's shareholder letter (1st halfyear of Porsche's FY - August 1 -January 31):

    Germany: - 4.6%
    North America: + 23.3%
    RoW: + 21.8%

    The data presented to the financial community does not separate Cayman S numbers from Boxster numbers (shown in one single column as "Boxster Series"), but this number jumped by 162.3 % (certainly with a fair share from Cayman S but also taking into account the base effect from weak 986 sales at the end of it's lifecycle) - 997 series was up 21.7%.

    What puzzles me a little bit is that Porsche does not seperately comment on Cayman S like "very successful launch" or similar which they usually do some 2 months after the launch.

    My gut feeling says the Cayman S had a good start in the US, but may have a more difficult launch in Europe. I'm living in a Porsche flooded area and did see only one single Cayman S in the wild so far (launch was end of November).

    BTW the car looked really beautiful in the dawn light on the autobahn. Maybe it's just me but I always like the look of any P-car looked at from another car in motion far better compared to the typical showroom perspective standing near the cars.

    Anyway, maybe I'm not the typical buyer but the only "force majeur" preventing me from getting the Cayman S instead of a Boxster S definitely was not the price tag, but my wife not willing to give up the cab fun (weekend toy, so practicality is not part of the equation in my case) - so please don't think I wouldn't like the car.

    And hey, you lucky Cayman owners (or waiters) - if we're discussing (or even speculating) sales numbers or Porsche's price policy this does not imply any offenses to you or any disrespect regarding a great car

    If I would have a Cayman S on order my blood pressure would not raise if others would criticize Porsche regarding it's marketing strategy - the only thing which would raise my blood pressure is sitting in my great new Porsche for the first time and turning the ignition key

    Re: Does the Cayman Have Legs?

    Quote:
    RC said:
    The "problem" of the Cayman S is simple: the price gap between the Boxster S and Cayman S is too big. If they would have priced the Cayman S at the same level as the Boxster S, it may have sold much better (cool roadster or nice and slightly more powerful sports coupe at the same price).




    If my Porsche dealer offered me a really, REALLY good part exchange deal I could be seriously tempted...I wonder if Porsche are giving any dealer incentives (I would never use the word "discount" here in the UK) for such deals

    Re: Does the Cayman Have Legs?

    you'll be lucky, OPC UK don't give discounts anything, not even free mats.

    Re: Does the Cayman Have Legs?

    April 2006 Motor Trend did a comparison test between the standard Carrera 911 and the Cayman S. Here's some of what they said:

    "Most agreed that except in terms of raw power, the Cayman provided the better overall driving experience. Straight-line acceleration is the performance parameter by which Porsche has chosen to separate these siblings, with the Cayman forbidden from outsprinting its big brother. In addition to docking the Cayman 10 percent in power and torque departments, the transmission was also hobbled with gearing that's six percent tailer in first and second gears. The result is a launch to 30 mph that's 20 percent slower than the 911's. - - That gap closes to seven percent by 60 mph (4.8 versus 4.5 seconds) and to two percent by the quarter mile (13.3 seconds at 104.6 versus 13.0 at 106.5 mph). Retrofitting the Boxster's first two cogs would provide a ratio shorter than the 911's in first and nearly equivalent in second, greatly improving the Cayman's response off the line.

    What Porsche withholds from the Cayman in terms of engine output, the aftermarket stands more than ready to supply. AutoThority and TechArt are each preparing packages that --- promise to add 20 horsepower or so, for between $3000 and $7000. In the lighter Cayman that should be enough to close the performance gap with the 911."

    Re: Does the Cayman Have Legs?

    DMS in the UK are advertising upgrades too, the advert say Cayman to 317 BHP. It's just a ECU remap as far as I'm aware and not rolling road proved either.

     
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